Magneton Suspect Discussion Thread

[p2]

Magneton has a large degree of centralisation on the tier, forcing teams into using Stunfisk, Lanturn or Torterra. Stunfisk and Lanturn lack reliable recovery, so they can be extremely easy to wear down without Wish support and Torterra can lose to Specs Analytic sets that hit Flash Cannon on the switch in. But, these aren't bad mons in NU, it's not like Greninja in OU where it brought stuff up from UU and even RU (not to mention they completely sucked outside of handling Greninja) just to handle it. Magneton is really restricted on what it can do, it barely has the movepool to lure anything and if it does drop something, it loses out on hitting a lot of mons. It's pretty slow with Specs, doesn't hit hard enough with Scarf and Eviolite doesn't make it that bulky. Magneton is a mixed opinion for me because I do think this centralisation is unhealthy, but I don't think it is necessarily broken because its sets can be taken advantage of fairly easily with a little scouting.

 

[sniperr]

after playing 100 plus games of Nu. I decided that magneton was broken for sure. literally every team I faced had a lanturn. I didn't use lanturn in the beginning, and eviolite magneton, specs, and scarf destroyed me. Hp grass on predicted switches hurt. magnet pull destroys your steels to give leeway to other sweepers. magneton is too good in this meta. ill be voting ban for sure.

 

[Luck O' the Irish]

got reqs so I'm going to post what I think about magneton now since my opinion on it changed a bit. (tl;dr is at bottom if you don't want to read this wall)

Throughout the suspect I used a specs magneton and although it's one of the most powerful special attacking sets NU has seen I wasn't as impressed with it as I thought I would be. This is largely due to how prediction reliant it is; if you predict right something gets 2HKO'd at worst but if you don't you're doing basically 0 damage. Magneton is a lot more manageable than previous banned threats such as typhlosion and heliolisk because it doesn't have an easy spam attack like typhlosion and it can't just easily bop things that can switch in on one move like heliolisk could. Its speed is not very good as well, meaning it is not hard to revenge kill. Choiced magneton can even feel like dead weight in a game if you miss all of your predictions. And unless you're running specs you're not getting around its main counters lanturn, stunfisk, and torterra. Especially with the former two, even if you hit them with your supereffective hidden power it can just switch out and you still can't safely use your stab moves. Eviolite and scarf don't hit the power level that specs does which makes these sets much more manageable in my eyes, at least in terms of defensive cores.

I feel like people kind of overrate its ability to switch in as well. It has good physical bulk for an offensive mon but its special bulk is shitty to say the least. Not to mention that a lot of its resistances don't matter that much when you factor in many mon's coverage moves (yeah magnets will tank kanga, archeops, and tauros' stab moves, but it's not eating the following eq). Even stuff like mawile and vileplume, two mons that magnets comes in basically for free on their stabs, can run stuff like fire fang/blast and hidden power fire, respectively, which are both viable options that hit other targets as well. With this said the list of things magnets can easily come in on becomes like scyther, fletchinder, psychics (primarily uxie, musharna, mesprit), klingklang, cradily, defensive snowflake, and maybe defensive water types like prinplup and mantine. There are other things you can come in on of course, such as regirock, mega audino, and xatu, but you kind of have to watch out for coverage moves such as eq, drain punch, heat wave, and fire blast. All of this goes to say that it isn't completely easy for magneton to pivot around, it is not difficult to prevent magneton from getting free switches.

So in spite of its raw power and good typing, it can be manageable in practice since it has an overrated amount of switchins and it has a hard time breaking through its counters. This said I do think magnets is the best mon in the tier atm, I just don't feel like it's broken.

On the other hand I feel that magneton's main unhealthy characteristic is the degree of centralization it brings to the metagame. On the suspect ladder it felt like 95% of teams carried at least one of torterra, lanturn, and stunfisk. All three of these are good in the tier regardless of magneton's presence. However, magneton forces you to run one of these, carry a shitton of soft checks, or make completely flawless predictions against it-- or your team gets dismantled. Not to mention the usage of otherwise completely useless lures, such as overheat fletchinder and hp ground [insert random mon here]. The metagame, to me, revolves completely around magneton + magneton counters, and this is not healthy. Thus I feel that magneton deserves to be banned.

Tl;dr
-Magneton is not broken. Specs is extremely prediction reliant and other sets carry much less power. Its low speed holds it back and it has an overrated amount of switchins thanks to many mon's coverage options.
-It does, however, overcentralize the metagame to an unhealthy degree, forcing most teams to carry 1 of three mons or risk being destroyed by magneton
-Ban imo

 

[Genesis7]

Tl;dr
-Magneton is not broken. Specs is extremely prediction reliant and other sets carry much less power. Its low speed holds it back and it has an overrated amount of switchins thanks to many mon's coverage options.

Hmmm... I'm gonna have to disagree with this statement, although I agree that Specs is predictable it isn't obvious that the opposing Magneton will be Specs from team preview. Even though non-Specs sets do carry less power they still pack a punch and can do things that Specs obviously can't do (more speed in the scarf set, more bulk for eviolite). The overrated amount of switchins part is something that I really disagree with, with Lanturn, Quagsire, Torterra and Stunfisk being the only viable counters for this thing (and that's a HUGE stretch as I really don't think Stunfisk would see any play and Quag's would be minimal if it wasn't for Magneton) almost all being popped by HP Grass and Torterra not appreciating a Flash Cannon, this mon becomes not only over centralizing like you said but also extremely tough to play around. The only thing holding Magneton back from being completely and utterly borked in this tier is its speed but I mean c'mon, when Stunfisk suddenly becomes a mainstay because of this mon you know it is time for it to go like you said.

 

[Blast]

I've noticed most of the anti-ban arguments have been centering around the fact that Magneton itself isn't that hard to prepare for. But to me, what makes Magneton banworthy is the state of the metagame itself. Even if there are a good amount of general answers to Magneton as a standalone threat, the problem is you're not trying to prepare for just Magneton. You're trying to prepare for Magneton AND the loads of other threats roaming the tier, which is way too much to handle right now because there's so fucking many of them. And it makes teambuilding super stale because there's only so many combinations of mons that can actually do that, and all of them are forced to feature certain Pokemon.

Now of course I'm not saying teams should be able to cover every threat in the metagame flawlessly, because they shouldn't. But in the meta's current state you kinda just have to subject yourself to certain teambuilding formulas even to cover most threats, lol.

I personally consider the meta to be in a terrible state right now for that reason (at the very least, it's much worse than it was before the drops), and I guess that might be subjective but I know for a fact that a lot of NU players agree with me on that. Maybe Magneton's not the only contender to that opinion, but it's definitely a big one, and even if we can't fix every issue by banning it, I do think it's likely to make it better.

 

[Luxuryball13]

Got my reqs, not gonna say too much.

Feel like magneton is not healthy to the meta and deserves to go lanturn, torterra, quag, stunk, on pretty much every team, i went with eviolite magnet rise so that was a lot of fun, while losing some power still got to do damage on the forced switches and just make it easier for something to win.

In my opinion the best for the metagame would be to ban magneton, so voting ban

 

[AV99]

The overrated amount of switchins part is something that I really disagree with, with Lanturn, Quagsire, Torterra and Stunfisk being the only viable counters for this thing.

I think you are forgetting about AV Golurk. Unless its is specs analytic magna can't two shot and no guard AV Golurk can do some major damage to whatever switches in.

 

[Disjunction]

ok got reqs posting my finishing thoughts in a clear objective manner.

This ladder sucks.

No, really, I hate it.

Teambuilding is god awful because of every centralizing threat we have in the tier right now. Unless you're stupid fast HO with 6 threats and probably no rocks, there will be a Pokemon that sets up on your team and destroys you, if not just destroys you without having to set up. I understand that there will always be mons your teams are weak to, but it's to a terrifying degree in this meta. Again, offensive withstanding, you cannot prepare for Offensive Grass-types (Lilligant, Servine, Simisage), Fire-types (Pyroar, ignoring Magmortar because it has no counters), offensive Water-types (Samurott, offensive Lanturn), Magneton, GALLADE, Malamar, Flying-types (Archeops and Fletchinder), and Calm Mind Psychic-types, among many others. We do not have this kind of defensive prowess in NU, even when combined with good offensive cores. I'm in favor of banning Magneton literally for the sole fact that it takes up an entire team slot just to beat on balance or anything more defensive. We have too many things that we need to fill that team slot with so I'm happy to get rid of one of the stupidly centralizing threats.

Next up is Gallade.

 

[Aladyyn]

Don't forget Normal types, those are always a huge threat to prepare for and since people run Lanturn, Stunfisk and Magneton as their main flying resists, arguably even more dangerous right now.

I've had the pleasure to face a couple VoltTurn Magneton teams on the ladder without a ground resist on my team and that basically swayed my opinion towards a ban. It's straight up ridiculous to try and eke out a win in such a situation, I'd never again consider a team without a Volt Switch absorber unless I was running HO. During my reqs journey I've seen more Lanturn than I have since the beginning of XY in total. This meta is bonkers, Magneton has no place in this tier (it's even better than I remember it being the last time it was down here). You either run one of the like 3 counters, 2 of which are easy to wear down in general, or you're fighting an uphill battle since turn 1.

Magneton is a one-dimensional Pokémon that adds nothing to the meta and said meta will improve tremendously with it gone.

Also can we just quick-ban Gallade or something.

 

[HypnoEmpire]

I think Magneton is way too over-centralising to stay in the tier. On pretty much every team, I see the use of Pokemon like Lanturn and Stunfisk just so they don't have to lose a Pokemon to this monster. In regards to its Choice Specs Analytic set (which I believe to be its best set), it's so easy to wear down Specially Defensive walls with a really powerful Volt Switch to the point where they can no longer reliably handle Magneton. I've seen people use Ferroseed on the ladder as their Magneton answer and it's funny how it just loses to Magnet Pull sets. Just from my experience, offense has a much easier time dealing with Magneton than other archetypes (especially weather teams, those can just blow back Magneton easily), but if you have a Pokemon that enables Magneton to get in for free, it's more than likely going to score a kill vs one of your Pokemon. Scarf Magneton is also pretty fun to use vs offense if you don't mind losing the pressure Choice Specs puts on more defensive teams. I don't think Magneton forcing players to use specific mons on more stall oriented teams is too much of a problem because while it does add another threat to be accounted for which could put a ton of pressure on stall to wall all of the prevalent threats in the tier, all this really does is further invalidate this specific archetype which isn't all too common in the first place from what I've seen (I could be wrong) and pushes for more offensive playstyles. I think this would be fine if it didn't also shit on balance teams, which I have actually seen a lot of. The fact that this archetype is forced to run Lanturn or a bulky Ground-type like Stunfisk or Torterra in order to not auto-lose to Magneton screams broken right off the bat to me (I've even seen Magneton + Diglett just to trap Stunfisk and Lanturn). Magneton's presence seems very unhealthy for the tier and I advocate for its ban.

 

[cityfolk]

After getting reqs, I found that magneton put a lot of pressure on my teambuilding. While building my teams, I found myself using either Lanturn, Quagsire, or Stunfisk on every team. Even with these mons, I failed to counter it because an Analytic specs HP ground/grass puts a huge dent in them. Magneton is versatile and can run Eviolite, Choice Scarf, or Choice Specs, with eviolite giving it good bulk to survive even some super effective hits, scarf as a great revenge killer that still hits hard, or specs giving it a huge power boost to its already insane high special attack + analytic combo. It has two very good abilities in analytic and magnet pull, being able to annihilate anything faster/switching in, or trap and kill steel types with HP fire/ground/whatever. This is thing hits crazy hard and is very tough to prepare for. I'm going to vote ban.

 

[Shurtugal]

Please don't kill me this post isn't going to represent a popular opinion.

Almost hit req. so gonna comment a bit. Please note that I haven't played NU past this suspect test.

Banning things because "it'll make the metagame healthier" is a really bad trend that's been cropping up lately (espec. in OU). We ban things because they're broken, not because they might make the metagame "more enjoyable" (I mean, how is that not biased?).

In OU, there's been a similar problem that's occurring here: stall and balanced type teams suffer from Pokemon that are simply too hard to wall; CM (+1) Gardevoir can literally not be walled by anything in the tier. In this respect, it has zero counters because nothing can reliably switch into Gardevoir (counter: can switch in AND threaten out reliably; check: can switch into a specific set or move; it can revenge kill and OHKO threat) . After a CM, it simply sweeps . . . if you're running a balance team that's super bulky and slow.

And that leads me to my point in NU: people are complaining about Magneton being a really hard Pokemon to wall and so it doesn't have counters and ya-da ya-da ya-da. You guys are thinking much too defensively - and are over exaggerating the necessities of counters in ORAS. First - due to the reliance of Volt Switch, anything with a Ground typing is immediately a check. That's a lot of checks. Another thing: Magneton is slow, the popular Spec Analytic set only hitting a measly 239 speed. Anything with any semblance of strength and speed can easily overtake Magneton - the eviolite set isn't enough to really take good STAB SE attacks either, and Fighting- STAB seems to be relatively common in this tier (Primeape, Sawk, etc.) all from pokemon that easily speed jump Magneton.

As for Scarf set, I don't really think it's worth mentioning because Scarf Magneton is simply outclassed by a lot more Pokemon that can be a better offensive threat to teams; Mags hits decent speeds for a Scarf mon, but it's laughably weak without a positive nature in Special Attack.

Another thing is that Magneton is usually choiced as well - Protect is distributed to every Pokemon, and as such, I fail to see how this could be hard to scout. Protect is far from a bad move, especially on balance-based teams, and makes Magneton a lot easier to play around.

Now to tie this in to my OU comparison: of course a balanced team or stall team is going to get wrecked by Gardevoir; Gardevoir is powerful and slow, just like Magneton. Gardevoir isn't an S- rank pokemon in OU because it's not really bulky and can be KO'd by numerous amounts of threats; in relation to stall or balanced team combating Gardevoir, they simply need to prepare for Pokemon that commonly break its playstyle.

ORAS is a metagame where threats don't need counters to be perfectly not broken in the tier. Gardevoir doesn't have any counters in OU, but that doesn't stop it from being perfectly healthy in OU. The same is with Magneton; it's not an easy Pokemon to tank hits from, but it's slow speed and easily exploitable steel typing (Fire- and Fighting- and Ground- are common offensive typing in this tier from what I've seen) and it's reliance on another exploitable choice-locked Volt Switch make it pretty easy to check.

By itself, I fail to see Magneton as a Pokemon that is broken. Due to the fact that Pokemon should not be banned on the contingency that "it'll make the metagame healthier!!" theorybullshit, I propose Magneton to not be banned.

And some more food for thought:

I've been using a Webs-based team in this tier during my suspect run and it's literally yet to lose - whether this is the player base's fault or my skill, I don't know - but what I'm saying is this: there are tons of room for checking Magneton; webs is an underrated strategy that makes Magneton a laughable threat.

Offensive teams really don't struggle with combating against Magneton, and balanced teams can easily fix the problem by running "fast balance" or Protect (which is a good move + easily scouts Magneton). As for the Lanturn / Quagsire / Toreterra argument; Magneton is a top tier threat. You should prepare for it. I don't think it's overcentralizing since it only effects a certain type of playstyle in this tier; slow balance. You can run a slightly more offensive type of balance (or a faster one), or, if you prefer to run a slower balance, run Lanturn / Quagsire / Etc. - yeah, you're limited to those pokemon, but you're stubbornly using a playstyle that is specifically weak to Magneton. Who's fault is that? Should a Mega Sableye stall team in OU claim that Gardevoir is broken because +1 sweeps through its entire team? No. That's not Gardevoir's fault; that's the stall's fault. If you want to run a MSableye stall (or any stall in OU in general), run Gardevior check(s); if you're running a team weak to Magneton, run Magneton check(s). That's not "overcentralization". That's just how ORAS is.

Gardevoir, to an extent, limits stall building, but in general, isn't a broken / ban-worthy Pokemon in OU; by itself it is not broken.
Magneton, to an extent, limits slow-balance building, but in general, isn't a broken / ban-worthy Pokemon in NU; by itself it is not broken.

 

[Deej Dy]

Shurtugal

I'll just go over some things that maybe you haven't experienced yet.

"First - due to the reliance of Volt Switch, anything with a Ground typing is immediately a check"
- lol. I'll use a timid Specs set to show you what ground types can switch in. Hell, even the Eviolite set with Analytic can threaten to KO all these mons if they have any prior damage whatsoever.

252 SpA Choice Specs Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 462-546 (111.5 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torterra: 276-325 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Golurk: 288-340 (75.3 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

There are a bunch more, but this effectively leaves Stunfisk and Quagsire as the two ground types that can stop momentum and survive a coverage move (not counting HP Grass Magneton).

"Another thing is that Magneton is usually choiced as well - Protect is distributed to every Pokemon, and as such, I fail to see how this could be hard to scout. Protect is far from a bad move, especially on balance-based teams, and makes Magneton a lot easier to play around."
- So you recommend running protect on half your team? How is this not overcentralizing.

"By itself, I fail to see Magneton as a Pokemon that is broken. Due to the fact that Pokemon should not be banned on the contingency that "it'll make the metagame healthier!!" theorybullshit"
Who said Magneton isn't broken and is only unhealthy for the metagame? It is broken.


Also stop comparing M-Gardevoir to Magneton. We get it you play a lot of OU, but they are hardly comparable. One huge difference is that Magneton has Volt Switch for momentum unlike Gardevoir. This makes bringing in the "eaze checks", like Sawk and Primape, hard when they get 1HKOed by volt switch on the specs set (yes even the timid set can 1HKO). And even if they dont KO and use the Eviolite/scarf set, you have still weakened them and can send in a far better fighting check.

"webs is an underrated strategy that makes Magneton a laughable threat."
This further convinces me you haven't gained a deep enough understanding of this meta yet. Webs is literally the worst it has ever been with Xatu running rampant in the tier.

I respect you have a differing opinion from the 99% on Magneton, but I only see one, maybe two, valid points in your argument. One being that Hyper offense checks it better; however, if all of your pokemon on the team are 263 speed or higher you're going to have far more issues down the road than just Magneton.

TLDR: Magneton has momentum unlike Gardevoir, Metagames are incomparable anyway.

 

[The Quasar]

Magneton is insanely powerful. First of all it has a good typing as steel/electric, good abilities (but I think Analytic is best in NU), a solid physical bulk thanks to Eviolite. Its drops in NU has been simultaneous to Seismitoad's departure, a potenzial counter despite Magneton could carry Hidden Power Grass.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Hidden Power Grass vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 480-568 (119.7 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Seismitoad Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 436-516 (180.1 - 213.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

Specs but also Scarf sets demonstrate very clearly how versatile, efficient, powerful and effective Magneton is. Also I think a SubSet should be good, at the same time in a Rain Team with Thunder.Throughout the suspect I used (bad!) a super offense team, with Petal Dance Lillegant and SD Samurott, togheter a LO Sawh with Earthquake. But I have always some problems against VoltTurn Magneton teams. In fact I would test/play without an Electric absorber like Lanturn and Stunfisk or an Electric immunity like Torterra or Quagsire. On the other hands, even they can't count on remaining safe with Hidden Power Grass, too.

So Magneton has a large degree of centralization, making teambuilding far too restrictive and probably pointless. So I think it needs to be banned.

 

[Evan.]

Please don't kill me this post isn't going to represent a popular opinion.

Almost hit req. so gonna comment a bit. Please note that I haven't played NU past this suspect test.

Banning things because "it'll make the metagame healthier" is a really bad trend that's been cropping up lately (espec. in OU). We ban things because they're broken, not because they might make the metagame "more enjoyable" (I mean, how is that not biased?).

In OU, there's been a similar problem that's occurring here: stall and balanced type teams suffer from Pokemon that are simply too hard to wall; CM (+1) Gardevoir can literally not be walled by anything in the tier. In this respect, it has zero counters because nothing can reliably switch into Gardevoir (counter: can switch in AND threaten out reliably; check: can switch into a specific set or move; it can revenge kill and OHKO threat) . After a CM, it simply sweeps . . . if you're running a balance team that's super bulky and slow.

And that leads me to my point in NU: people are complaining about Magneton being a really hard Pokemon to wall and so it doesn't have counters and ya-da ya-da ya-da. You guys are thinking much too defensively - and are over exaggerating the necessities of counters in ORAS. First - due to the reliance of Volt Switch, anything with a Ground typing is immediately a check. That's a lot of checks. Another thing: Magneton is slow, the popular Spec Analytic set only hitting a measly 239 speed. Anything with any semblance of strength and speed can easily overtake Magneton - the eviolite set isn't enough to really take good STAB SE attacks either, and Fighting- STAB seems to be relatively common in this tier (Primeape, Sawk, etc.) all from pokemon that easily speed jump Magneton.

As for Scarf set, I don't really think it's worth mentioning because Scarf Magneton is simply outclassed by a lot more Pokemon that can be a better offensive threat to teams; Mags hits decent speeds for a Scarf mon, but it's laughably weak without a positive nature in Special Attack.

Another thing is that Magneton is usually choiced as well - Protect is distributed to every Pokemon, and as such, I fail to see how this could be hard to scout. Protect is far from a bad move, especially on balance-based teams, and makes Magneton a lot easier to play around.

Now to tie this in to my OU comparison: of course a balanced team or stall team is going to get wrecked by Gardevoir; Gardevoir is powerful and slow, just like Magneton. Gardevoir isn't an S- rank pokemon in OU because it's not really bulky and can be KO'd by numerous amounts of threats; in relation to stall or balanced team combating Gardevoir, they simply need to prepare for Pokemon that commonly break its playstyle.

ORAS is a metagame where threats don't need counters to be perfectly not broken in the tier. Gardevoir doesn't have any counters in OU, but that doesn't stop it from being perfectly healthy in OU. The same is with Magneton; it's not an easy Pokemon to tank hits from, but it's slow speed and easily exploitable steel typing (Fire- and Fighting- and Ground- are common offensive typing in this tier from what I've seen) and it's reliance on another exploitable choice-locked Volt Switch make it pretty easy to check.

By itself, I fail to see Magneton as a Pokemon that is broken. Due to the fact that Pokemon should not be banned on the contingency that "it'll make the metagame healthier!!" theorybullshit, I propose Magneton to not be banned.

And some more food for thought:

I've been using a Webs-based team in this tier during my suspect run and it's literally yet to lose - whether this is the player base's fault or my skill, I don't know - but what I'm saying is this: there are tons of room for checking Magneton; webs is an underrated strategy that makes Magneton a laughable threat.

Offensive teams really don't struggle with combating against Magneton, and balanced teams can easily fix the problem by running "fast balance" or Protect (which is a good move + easily scouts Magneton). As for the Lanturn / Quagsire / Toreterra argument; Magneton is a top tier threat. You should prepare for it. I don't think it's overcentralizing since it only effects a certain type of playstyle in this tier; slow balance. You can run a slightly more offensive type of balance (or a faster one), or, if you prefer to run a slower balance, run Lanturn / Quagsire / Etc. - yeah, you're limited to those pokemon, but you're stubbornly using a playstyle that is specifically weak to Magneton. Who's fault is that? Should a Mega Sableye stall team in OU claim that Gardevoir is broken because +1 sweeps through its entire team? No. That's not Gardevoir's fault; that's the stall's fault. If you want to run a MSableye stall (or any stall in OU in general), run Gardevior check(s); if you're running a team weak to Magneton, run Magneton check(s). That's not "overcentralization". That's just how ORAS is.

Gardevoir, to an extent, limits stall building, but in general, isn't a broken / ban-worthy Pokemon in OU; by itself it is not broken.
Magneton, to an extent, limits slow-balance building, but in general, isn't a broken / ban-worthy Pokemon in NU; by itself it is not broken.

i don't really agree with your opinion about how we shouldn't ban stuff just because a ban would make the tier more enjoyable. What makes a metagame not enjoyable to play is when there is a degree of centralization that prevents people from being creative with their teambuilding and restricts them farther than just "preparing for threats". Since you stated that you haven't played NU before this test, i'll try to use some NU examples just so you can get a sense of what's happened in the tier prior to this. I still personally believe that Mega Steelix wasn't broken as a mon by definition of the word, yet I still voted ban because I honestly thought that having it gone would promote a less centralized and more fun tier to play. On the other hand, Typhlosion was a mon that I honestly though was one of those mons that you just have to prepare for, similar to what you're saying about Magneton, and even tho it was centralizing, it wasn't centralizing to the degree of something like Mega Steelix, or in this case, Magneton.

Of course we are gonna be biased when we talk about centralization, that's literally in the nature of the argument itself, we suspect something for being too over-centralizing because we feel that its skewing the metagame to a point where people don't enjoy playing it anymore. I agree with you about the fact that "over-centralization" is being thrown around a lot lately for mons that don't really fit the bill (see my opinion on the typh suspect) but I don't want to have to play a tier with stuff like Heliolisk, Mega Steelix, and Magneton, just because they aren't "broken" to the level of a Mega Luc, Greninja, etc. Besides we do play this game to enjoy ourselves do we not? I've been involved with NU for a while now because I enjoy the tier, if there's something that detracts from that enjoyment of the tier, such as centralization from Mega Steelix or Magneton, well then i'm probably going to vote ban. If you think there's something wrong with that, I'd advise you to step back and think about why you like to play this game again because it might actually change your perspective.

also i think Deej Dy did a good job of explaining why magneton's checks are different from a mon such as m-gard's checks, so i don't think i'll elaborate too much on that, but what I will say is that i think you're underrating the eviolite set a bit too much. the fact that it can act as a bulky pivot, that hits almost as hard as a full on wallbreaker like Magmortar or E-Vire makes it an incredibly good set. It makes sure you don't even have to predict against ground types like rhydon and piloswine because they are weak to your other STAB move. it also makes that whole argument on protect pretty invalid and can even give magneton the freedom to run moves like metal sound, toxic or magnet rise which although not mainstays on most magneton sets, can mess up it's normal counters like torterra or stunfisk which the choice sets do not.

 

[The Goomy]

Shurtugal As I'm sure people in the NU community know, I also think that banning something b/c it's too centralizing is a completely shit argument that should never be used as it's primarily a lazy way to play the game. However, Magnets is not only centralizing, but incredibly broken. It's centralization is to the point where your team literally only has to prepare for 3-4 mons, 2 of which are handled by Xatu, and the other 2 are handled by Lanturn (b/c Lanturn on Lanturn is sexy). This level of centralization makes teambuilding incredibly difficult for anyone not abusing Magneton, and incredibly easy for anyone building with Magneton. In addition, doing 40% to the best counter in the game (Lanturn) is actually hilarious. It's so broken it's amazingly broken. And Gardevoir doesn't have perfect typing that also resists every relevant priority in the tier baring Vacuum Wave Poliwrath, which isn't quite gonna help you with Magnets anyway.

TL:DR. Magneton-Gardevoir is the worst comparison I've seen since xzern's Lanturn-AVMantine.

 

[ZoroDark]

Magneton is problematic in the NU tier for a couple reasons. First and foremost, it can run various viable sets - eviolite, specs, and scarf. The two former - specs and eviolite - are the most potent as they have the highest damage output or versatility in regard to changing up moves with eviolite. Analytic is a great ability to use on either of these as when forcing a switch-out or moving second, you do a significant amount of damage which pretty much nothing appreciates taking defensively. Sturdy and Magnet Pull are also two solid abilities although each is more situational in their own regard. Going back into Magneton as a whole, I really feel the biggest reason for it being banworthy is the fact that it has few switch ins and thus limits teambuilding quite a bit (to the extent that it's unhealthy in the tier). Lanturn and Stunfisk are the two strongest counters to it and outside of that, there aren't really any counters at all. Things like Torterra, Electevire, and the rare Raichu can play a role in checking it, however, but I wouldn't advise them as being your only checks to Magneton, making teambuilding require one of two pokemon to counter or a series of other pokemon to hard check Magneton. If you lack an answer to Magneton, you're going to end up getting destroyed by its strong specil attacks and momentum from Volt Switch while if you cater to Magneton in teambuilding, you're already restricting yourself from the start. Furthermore, Magneton is banworthy in NU due to its versatility, strength, and limitations it sets on teambuilding.

tl;dr ban magnet, finch owns, bugzi sucks

 

[AV99]

Alright got my reqs. The one thing i have to say about this is that lanturn does have a place in this tier even if magnaton isn't in it. if the evs are spread well it will make a spec pyroar hyper voice a three hit ko. I did not run any of the walls that people talked about like stunfisk and torterra. The way i planned for the magnaton was that 4 of my pokes were slower than magnaton (to make analytic irrelevant) and of the two that were faster one was a pyroar so no magnaton is staying in on that. The other was a uturn Uxie so i could go into something to my advantage. I went 40-10 and over half of those losses were to teams without a magnaton on them. And to be completely honest I made my team without even thinking about preparing for magnaton since the majority of the team was made before the BLT started.

 

[Genesis7]

Alright got my reqs. The one thing i have to say about this is that lanturn does have a place in this tier even if magnaton isn't in it. if the evs are spread well it will make a spec pyroar hyper voice a three hit ko. I did not run any of the walls that people talked about like stunfisk and torterra. The way i planned for the magnaton was that 4 of my pokes were slower than magnaton (to make analytic irrelevant) and of the two that were faster one was a pyroar so no magnaton is staying in on that. The other was a uturn Uxie so i could go into something to my advantage. I went 40-10 and over half of those losses were to teams without a magnaton on them. And to be completely honest I made my team without even thinking about preparing for magnaton since the majority of the team was made before the BLT started.

I definitely agree that Lanturn has a place in a Magneton-less meta with it being a great special wall/pivot/cleric all at the same time but it is still a pretty shaky counter against Magneton as it is a guaranteed 2HKO from HP Grass after rocks 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Hidden Power Grass vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 174-206 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (this seems to be the general Lanturn spread, correct me if I'm wrong). Despite this, Lanturn is still one of the premier switch-ins to Magneton which is saying a lot. To reply to your second point, even though you built your team before Magneton entered the tier (and I know this is true since I was on your BLT team and you won a lot of games with the team you're talking about) you still chose to use it since you knew it had a good advantage on the suspect ladder, this is still proving that Magneton is centralizing regardless of when the team was built. I know first-hand that you're a great NU player AV but, you really can't argue that Magneton isn't centralizing because it is the textbook definition of the term in a Pokemon sense; limited switch-ins, a need for one or more dedicated Pokemon on a given team to handle it, and it can run sets that can leave your counters dead in the water. Sorry I had to single you out AV but I'm just really not understanding these anti-ban arguments.

 

[Pokedots]

I crammed reqs the last two days, and took the opportunity to try out smash pass on the last stretch to actually experience it for myself so I can have a more educated opinion (also for less ethical reasons :I, and I might post about it in the np thread if I feel like it)

Magneton's pretty busted, and this is something I feel the majority of the community agrees on. Teambuilding is extremely limiting at the moment, with the number of threats you have to prepare for (not flawlessly though) cannot be covered by the limited amount of teamslots that we have. Magneton exemplifies this, as while there are good answers like Lanturn, Stunfisk, Torterra, and Claydol and some offensive checks in Electivire, that's actually about it lol, as unless most of your team is over 263 speed and can threaten it somehow, you're kinda forced to run one of these or else Magneton can freely spam its ridiculously powerful STABs and gain momentum with Volt Switch every time it comes in. A practically nearly unblockable Volt Switch, even if it doesn't make by itself make Magnets broken, adds to how difficult to handle it is, as even against Pokemon it can't do too much damage against (which are very few really, even defensive behemoths like Lickilicky and Audino take quite a bit of damage and get worn down over time), it can just wear them down significantly for later and gain momentum, which is, you know, how you win games. The meta's just overwhelmingly centralized around this mon, and is overall in a bad state where creativity is fairly hard to pull off (I didn't see much of it even among better players, and for me personally even when I tried to be creative I just ended up with underrated mon+standard build, though to be fair I'm just not the best builder), and certain builds/Pokemon are kinda needed to handle even most of the threats. I'm voting ban

 

[nv]

Ok so I got reqs so here is my obligatory post-reqs post on the Magnets and how they work.

I feel like Magneton has way too much going for it in NU. It has literally 3 good sets in Scarf, Eviolite, and Specs. Scarf makes it an epic revenge killer with an amazing typing defensively and access to momentum grabbing via Volt Switch. Eviolite means it can make use of its typing to setup (SubChargeBeam) or trap Steel-types / bait Ground-types via Magnet Pull and Magnet Rise respectively. Specs is probably its most potent set as it can take a few hits with its defensive typing and fire back with an Analytic boost as Magneton tends to be slower than most. Speaking of Analytic, its three abilities all have use in NU with Analytic being the most common followed by Magnet Pull then Sturdy (Sturdy + Custap Berry shenanigans anyone?). Analytic means basically switchins and faster threats that cannot OHKO it are going to be taking a huge chunk of their HP. Analytic is imo one of the main reason it is broken as even safe switchins such as Lanturn, Stunfisk, and SpD Torterra aren't safe from having ~50% of their HP stripped away from Hidden Power Ground or Flash Cannon respectively. Magnet Pull also means it can trap every Steel-type that it can beat up on such as Mawile, Klinklang, or Ferroseed (wins 1v1 with SubChargeBeam only iirc). Sturdy is probably the least useless but it could work a bit like Sawk as a wallbreaker that is able to tank any hit and proceed to destroy 1-2 of the opponent's Pokemon. Magneton also has the same Special Attack stat as Magnezone but with 10 more base Speed, meaning it can hit just as hard as an OU Pokemon while being down here in NU. I know I shouldn't compared but that base 125 Special Attack stat is another major factor in my decision on banning these magnets.

TL;DR Ban these magnets and the memes with it

 

[Ares]

So I went into this thinking I wanted to ban Magneton, because looking at the teambuilder there are literally 3 things (lanturn / stunfisk / torterra) that can take a hit from Magneton's coverage moves. This makes teambuilding for something like stall or bulky balance almost impossible without having one of those 3 mons on your team. So looking at it from the teambuilder Magneton was a ban from me.

Then I actually went out to get reqs, I did it with a team that didn't have a single ground-type on it. All I had that could switch into Magneton was a Ferroseed. Every single time I faced a Magneton however, it literally ended up doing less than expected. I had to go out into Ferroseed every time and lost momentum, but then I was able to gain it back and through the use of hazards or the occasional burn Magneton was very quickly worn down. The majority of my experience against Magneton it was fairly easy to play around as its sets are all pretty similar and you can usually tell if its scarf / specs through its damage output.

Moving on to how slower bulkier teams can deal with it; I actually agree with the sentiment that slower bulkier balance builds should be running protect in this meta on Pokemon that give Magneton a free switch in. This is simply adapting a playstyle to the current meta, Protect + Ground-type + Flash Cannon resist means that you're going to have a fairly easy time checking the specs sets. Eviolite will be a bit harder to play around, but with Analytic not being activated if you stay in (slow balance) getting damage on it shouldn't be to hard of a task. You have to remember that even if something doesn't have an obvious counter it isn't necessarily broken. So at this point I was thinking to myself I was going to vote dnb on magnets.

Then Gallade dropped down into the meta and teambuilding just went in the shitter. Its pretty much impossible to account for everything without the same generic build and by having Gallade in the tier, Magneton is pretty unhealthy.

--

Overall I think that Magneton was a lot easier to deal with in practice and people are defeating themselves in the teambuilder before ever playing a game. However the combination of Gallade and Magneton in the tier together is enough to make me undecided on this vote so I will be voting Abstain.

 

[ryan]

"...people are defeating themselves in the teambuilder..." is such a good quote because it completely sums up my opinions on this suspect test. I think there are some problems with NU that need hammering out, but most of it can be fixed by putting away all the theorymon and playing the game more. I realize a lot of people in this thread have already gotten reqs and played a lot of games to get there, but there's too much emphasis on how Magneton only has three counters. But that's still more counters than Sawk, Magmortar, Samurott, Zangoose, etc. all have. There aren't even that many checks to any of these Pokemon. Sometimes you have to pivot around them, and sometimes you have to play aggressive to beat them. I don't really see how Magneton is that much different outside of having Volt Switch, which can still really easily be handled. If you want to run slow, passive, hazard-stacking balanced teams, then yes, you're going to need Stunfisk or Lanturn on all of your teams. But if you're more willing to try different playstyles (gasp!), then you aren't quite so "cornered" into using the same shit on every team. In fact, Magneton punishing these builds would be a good thing if people were more willing to expand their teambuilding to account for it.

I've been using a very momentum-based balanced team on the suspect ladder and crushing with it. Yes, it has a Lanturn, which beats Magneton really well. But Lanturn also provides my team a dedicated Fire resist, a Fletchinder check, and a slow pivot to get my offensive Pokemon in for free. Even if I let my Lanturn take a bunch of damage early on, I still have three offensive checks that can either kill or severely dent Magneton, all of which would be great without Magneton in the meta. Before this team, I was using an offensive team that literally has zero Pokemon that could switch into Magneton. My best switch-ins got OHKO'd by the proper STAB choice, and I had nothing to stop a Volt Switch. But I wasn't using slow balance, so I didn't have to worry about Magneton.

Before I actually played a lot more of the metagame with Magneton under scrutiny, I was more on the pro-ban side, but the more I played the metagame, the less I felt Magneton was really as big of an issue as it sounded. There's definitely some problems with NU, but I'm not convinced that Magneton is what's making the metagame the way it is.

 

[HJAD]

"...people are defeating themselves in the teambuilder..." is such a good quote because it completely sums up my opinions on this suspect test. I think there are some problems with NU that need hammering out, but most of it can be fixed by putting away all the theorymon and playing the game more. I realize a lot of people in this thread have already gotten reqs and played a lot of games to get there, but there's too much emphasis on how Magneton only has three counters. But that's still more counters than Sawk, Magmortar, Samurott, Zangoose, etc. all have. There aren't even that many checks to any of these Pokemon. Sometimes you have to pivot around them, and sometimes you have to play aggressive to beat them. I don't really see how Magneton is that much different outside of having Volt Switch, which can still really easily be handled. If you want to run slow, passive, hazard-stacking balanced teams, then yes, you're going to need Stunfisk or Lanturn on all of your teams. But if you're more willing to try different playstyles (gasp!), then you aren't quite so "cornered" into using the same shit on every team. In fact, Magneton punishing these builds would be a good thing if people were more willing to expand their teambuilding to account for it.

I've been using a very momentum-based balanced team on the suspect ladder and crushing with it. Yes, it has a Lanturn, which beats Magneton really well. But Lanturn also provides my team a dedicated Fire resist, a Fletchinder check, and a slow pivot to get my offensive Pokemon in for free. Even if I let my Lanturn take a bunch of damage early on, I still have three offensive checks that can either kill or severely dent Magneton, all of which would be great without Magneton in the meta. Before this team, I was using an offensive team that literally has zero Pokemon that could switch into Magneton. My best switch-ins got OHKO'd by the proper STAB choice, and I had nothing to stop a Volt Switch. But I wasn't using slow balance, so I didn't have to worry about Magneton.

Before I actually played a lot more of the metagame with Magneton under scrutiny, I was more on the pro-ban side, but the more I played the metagame, the less I felt Magneton was really as big of an issue as it sounded. There's definitely some problems with NU, but I'm not convinced that Magneton is what's making the metagame the way it is.

I completely agree with hollywood on the parts that Magneton, in practice at least, is much more manageable then on paper. Sure it only has 3 counters, but it has to out speed you in the first place to do damage, which is a problem since Magnets ISNT fast.
Like holly, I have also tried some new play styles, where I don't focus on switch ins yet pack my teams full of threats, setup sweepers and cleaners (sounds like Hyper Offense, doesn't it?), that just don't give Magneton any safe switch ins. Every Mon had the potential to either kill it or do massive damage to it. I used mons like EQ Kanga, Magmortar, Sawk, that, in practice, despite having No Switch whatsoever for a specs flash cannon, magneton wasn't a problem.

However, what I don't disagree with is the comparison to Sawk, Magmortar, Samurott and Zangoose with Magneton. About the only relationship you could pick out between those 4 and Magnets is that they have few counters. The difference is with Magneton compared to those mons, it actually can perform a defensive utility for a team, e.g. run as a teams flying resist, so it will certainly get free chances to come in. Which leads me onto the next difference.
The oppurtuinity cost of Magneton mispredicting is at a lower probability than Let's say, Sawk mispredicting. In order for Sawk to achieve similar outright power to magneton it, also has to run a boosting item. If Sawk mispredicts a Magius switch, and goes for CC, it loses a chunk of momentum. Magneton isn't pressured to go for volt switch constantly, since its other stab, flash cannon, covers it it pretty much perfectly, bar those 4 magical counters. So, if your not sure that your opponent is going out to something else, you can play it safe and always goes for flash cannon, which has great neutral coverage across the tier and no Immunity's which imo is a big thing.
Comparing Magneton to other wall-breakers doesn't make sense, since, even if Magnetons roll in a team partially is to wall-break, the other is to gain momentum for your team.

Another reason pro-ban is that its "counters" aren't even that. Torterra Is 2HKO'd by analytic flash cannon, lanturn 3hkoed by specs HP grass, same with stunfisk and Evire gets OHKO'd by HP ground bar balloon varients (lol).

After all of this suspect test, my opinion on Magnets hasn't changed. Its still broken due to how it centralizes the tier, however, my opinion has changed . it wasn't as broken as I made it out to be when it first dropped.

 

[TSM ryan]

I haven't had the chance to see Magneton in any higher level play outside of the ladder, which of course means it wasn't being played to its fullest potential. From what I have seen during ladder player, and experienced while teambuilding to adapt to it, it simply didn't make that much of a difference to me. Now, yes, it can be seen as over-centralizing for the meta when it's the glue of several teams on the higher ladder, but with that said, I feel that its move-set is far from perfect in regards to being able to take on the entire meta, as other Pokemon typically are when suspected and ultimately banned. When running Eviolite, it lacks the extra speed that it would need to either outspeed the likes of Archeops, or Tauros, or have enough power to even OHKO Xatu.

Then when looking at it when it is choiced, Specs can take down just about anything in the meta with a neutral attack, which of course is part of why we're here suspecting it. Scarfed allows you to out-speed and get that kill on Archeops or Tauros, as mentioned above. Specs allows you to get that kill on Xatu. Of course when talking Xatu, it's relevant as if you fail to kill it while running the Eviolite set, it has approximately a 95.7% to 2HKO with Heat Wave. But with Magneton choice locked, depending on the opposing team, especially if it's hyper offense, it's more likely than not that you will always get punished heavily for when the check for the move Magneton is locked into gets brought in. Obviously people know how Choice items work and that this isn't anything new, but when Magneton has to be choiced to take on relevant offensive threats, unlike the likes of Mesprit, it puts you in a bad situation generally, which is exactly what I saw while playing on the ladder. When facing teams with Magneton, I typically handled it well through simply going into a Flash Cannon/Tbolt resist/immunity, and getting a huge hit or OHKO on the switch-in, which is typically predictable during ladder play. I didn't use Magneton on the teams that I had built, because when building, it wasn't what I had wanted due to the weaknesses listed above.

As much of a threat as it can be, I simply didn't see enough major meta breaking issues with it to vote to ban it from the meta.