WOW! Let me just switch into my spdef wall with recovery to completely wall this magn- oh its already Volt Switched out, and gained both momentum and free damage on said spdef wall. What resttalk users are you eluding to in your post? The only 2 common Resttalk users that I can think of are Poliwrath and MAudino which both lose anyways, and if you start running resttalk on random.shit in order to beat Magneton theres something wrong. There is no way in hell Zangoose is anywhere near as broken, because its frail, one dimensional, and has a difficult time coming in safely. If you really think that Zangoose is more broken than Magneton than that just reflects on your metagame knowledge as a whole and makes me wonder if you've even played the Magneton meta. Also if youre going to shitpost, at least make it funny next time.
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Magneton Suspect Discussion Thread
- Thread starter ryan
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If you actually read my argument properly, I wouldn't need to go over this.
In the most polite possible way, if, a Mon like magneton, with such power that it can easily 2hko the entire meta, is allowed to volt switch freely, you put major backlog of defensive pressure on your team.
I am curious what others see as the differences between magneton and scyther, as they both run high-damage, momentum generating sets. Scyther too has the option of being extremely bulky, has a scarf/band/eviolite set, and furthermore has access to swords dance and roost. Is his stealth rock weakness that damning?
He wasn't saying that momentum moves are broken, he was saying that magneton's access to a momentum move makes it very difficult for normal sp def walls to take it on properly.
And yes, poliwrath and audino are the only common defensive things you'll see that run resttalk. Idk what you're trying to prove here lol
So what if it can't 2HKO the entire meta? It can 2HKO like 90% of it with proper prediction.
Honestly I can't tell if you're trolling
ye rocks really does give choice scyther the d. And sure its pivot move can't be blocked but it's a lot easier to wall as a whole, as p much any rock or steel type will be able to take it on pretty well. Plus magneton is just more powerful and has a lot better overall defensive synergy with teammates
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Thing is, you are using insults and flawed logic to prove your point. Your whole "debate" started off with a one liner that said "muh stall" and then you proceed to tell people to use SpDef walls against Magneton to check it's massive damage, which isn't the issue with Magneton to begin with. The issue is (other than amazing defensive typing, wallbreaking capabilities and okay-ish bulk with Eviolite) that Magneton is not only able to run a multitude of different abilities and items, making it massively unpredictable, it is also able to provide free momentum against those SpDef walls you mentioned, while still being able to break other walls effortlessly.
Let us use Zangoose as an example. You bring in your Zangoose, it gets toxic orb off, yada yada. Your enemy brings in a dedicated answer to Zangoose. Now you have the choice of firing off an attack that does a bunch of damage and get OHKOd in return or hard switch out. Magneton does not have that issue. Unless he's in against Torterra, Lanturn, Stunfisk or EVire, he's going to Volt Switch out, get off free damage and bring in a threat to your wall. Unless you absolutely run electric immunity, you cannot help but lose half a mon every time Magneton comes in, which just isn't the case with Zangoose.
Honestly, you're being a dick about this. Instead of whining and bitching about the staff removing your garbo posts, try to use proper arguments and a civil tone, and maybe people will listen to you. There's a couple really, really high level players in this thread that do not want to ban Magneton immediately, and they support their claim with arguments. You don't see their posts removed, do you? Try to imitate what they do and you will be more successful on here.
bird crew Defensively, while Scyther can take a few hits with it's Evioite set, it doesn't have the numerous resistances brought about by Steel/Electric. Stealth Rock kills Scyther, while Magneton resists it. Magneton also often gets an Analytic boost along with Volt Switch, whereas Technician doesn't give U-Turn a boost. While the comparison is interesting, Scyther just doesn't possess the pure power or the defensive capabilities of Magneton. Hope this helped :)
Well, I don't know what to say anymore. I can deal pretty well with Magneton. I won't "imitate" anyone like you say because I'm trying to contribute. So if someone is interested in a different opinion, give Lickilicky a try. It works amazingly well.
Don't be so hostile you cucks >:^(
You can very well imitate a certain style of articulation (especially if that style consists of using proper arguments to support your claim) and still fill it with your very own thoughts. Since you are so keen on being super hipster about things, I will leave you alone now and congratulate you on the fact you seem to be able to handle Magneton much better than the rest of us. Peace out, Dunning Kruger.
I would try lickilicky, but unfortunately it gets 2HKO'd on the switch :[
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 220-261 (51.8 - 61.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
In the next turn it doesn't have the Analytic boost so you can do Wish+Protect.
You need to understand that there are a lot of players that don't parcitipate in the forums but still play a lot. Don't get so triggered when a new user gives his/her opinion.
I joined this forum a week and a half before you. The reason I am not being treated like you is because I am able to admit when I don't know jack about a certain topic. You don't give opinions. Opinions can't be proven. There's a bunch of evidence in this very thread that proves that what you are saying is flat out wrong, though. I think someone forgot to teach you how to articulate yourself properly. That would be a - completely hypothetical - example of an opinion. Either way, I am REALLY going to leave you alone now. Have a good day.
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So I don'y really play NU all that much so bear with me here. Currently in the suspect I am using rain so I am not essentially getting the full effect of the suspect. However, the eviolite set has been able to somewhat threaten my mons as it has the ability to take a life orb hydro pump or waterfall from full and threaten to bop my ludicolo or kabutops making me lose a potential win con. While I don't think the eviolite set is as bad as specs, it was still surprising as shit when it took a hydro pump from a ludicolo.
I decided to kinda lurk around and watch some battles on my own time to get a feel for how it performed outside of rain, and the specs set is just stupid. It puts way to much pressure on balance and without a lanturn, stunfisk, or a quagsire balance takes a giant hit making it somewhat not good or unviable to use. When a mon is making another another playstyle extremely risky to use or unviable in some cases than it really should not be here as it is way too unhealthy.
Edit: I kinda wanna contribute to getting a TC so I kinda want to finish out the reqs and not quick ban it ):
I decided to kinda lurk around and watch some battles on my own time to get a feel for how it performed outside of rain, and the specs set is just stupid. It puts way to much pressure on balance and without a lanturn, stunfisk, or a quagsire balance takes a giant hit making it somewhat not good or unviable to use. When a mon is making another another playstyle extremely risky to use or unviable in some cases than it really should not be here as it is way too unhealthy.
Edit: I kinda wanna contribute to getting a TC so I kinda want to finish out the reqs and not quick ban it ):
This is honestly not the way to look at a suspect in my opinion. Running an offensive team is a legitimate way to dampen the effectiveness of opposing Magneton. We shouldn't try to delegitimize such an argument by saying "oh but you were running X, so your experience doesn't matter." Of course it's a fallacy to say "I never had trouble with it, so it's not broken." But there are certainly ways around Magneton that doesn't involve running Lanturn, Stunfisk, Torterra, or Electivire: through offensive pressure.
Magneton is not that fast, and while it outspeeds bulky defensive mons that's nearly irrelevant, and often doesn't help Magneton that it's faster than defensive threats because of Analytic. Stall is still ~just as viable~ as before (it wasn't all that amazing before, typical of oras, kinda same place it is now), balance is still usable, but yes, they are rather limited in the teambuilding phase. Offense doesn't really care about magneton unless it's scarf, but offense has trouble dealing with random scarfers anyways so that's not surprising at all (and shouldn't come as the reason to banning Magneton. Scarf Sawk trolls offense pretty hard too but no one whines about that lols!)
Magneton has changed the meta and it's much more offensive now, yet balance is still usable. I don't think Magneton has singlehandedly ruined the meta and rendered it unplayable in a way Serp / Sheer Force Gatr has. Speed is one of the most important stats for a reason. I have to admit it's a wee bit strong and really shoehorns balance, but would that be enough reason to ban? I'll play more and see.
Now that I think about it you do have a point. Rain is an extremely threatening style and it does not really let mag do anything but I think the more legitment argument is its effect that it is having on balance. I clearly stated that I lurked and saw some of its effects on balance, and they were not positive ones. This reminds me a lot of what is going on with uu and victini. Offense which is an equilivent to the rain team im using really hinder the mons ability to do what it is making it suspected because both mons can be easily overwhelmed by offense. The issue is that those mons are having a massive impact on balance and the discussion is whether or not it makes that style unviable. If the case holds that magneton does indeed make balance unviable then while offense does handle it well, it does not call for a healthy meta that solely consists of one play style (offense) whether it deals with mag or not.
The reason you received such hostility is because you insulted literally everyone who participated in this suspect first. Anyway what needs to be said about this has already been said: the reason people suggested SpD Pokemon immune to Volt Switch as Magneton counters is because SpD Pokemon not immune to Volt Switch would get smacked hard on the switch and won't get the chance to recover since they are immediately confronted with a bad matchup against mons such as Sneasel or Sawk, meaning it's only a matter of time before Magneton breaks them. Regenerator Audino is the sole exception, but it is historically known as setup fodder, and most don't carry Leftovers for better passive healing (to better withstand Volt Switches) these days due to the benefits granted by being able to Mega in a pinch.
Yes, the Stealth Rock weakness plays a huge role in toning down Scyther's ridiculousness, as being worn down faster than the Pokemon you're trying to U-turn kind of defeats the purpose, while Magneton can Volt Switch over and over again under much less pressure. There's also the difference in sheer power (Magneton has greater power and Analytic, while Scyther only has unboosted U-turn) and coverage moves; Magneton has Flash Cannon and Hidden Power to maim Electric resists / absorbers hard and speed up the process, while Scyther is hard pressed to dent bulky Rocks / Steels / etc. quickly enough, outside of repeatedly U-turning.
Anyway, these are my thoughts on Magneton, ripped straight out of the np page:
After laddering for a bit I think I have decided on what to do with magneton. This thing is making teams look like they all are the same, most of the games I played had a Lanturn in it. It restricts team building to the point where if you want to win you have to pack for Magneton, every play style needs to have a Magneton check because of it's diversity. As said, it can run Evio, Scarf, and Specs, which makes the game into somewhat of a guessing game, what does it have. It forces switches and can easily destroy some feasible counters that might come to mind. Quagsire can't switch into it safely because chances are it is carrying HP Grass and by you switching it gets a boost. If your team doesn't have ground types or pokemon who can absorb electric moves then you are kinda screwed. If Magneton didn't have Analytic it wouldn't be an issue but the sheer power of having STAB moves at 1.95x damage is what makes this mon the monster it is, with specs those moves now are 2.5x more powerful, making moves more powerful than Sniper boosted crits. BAN PLS
I've noticed a trend for a bit now. It seems that "If you don't prepare for it you lose to it" can be used as a legitimate argument now, which is completely outrageous. Obviously if you don't carry a check and/or counter to a top tier threat, you deserve to lose to it, but to cal that a reason for a ban is simply not enough. Most of the S/A+/A rank threats can easily sweep you without checks to them, so this is nothing specific for Magneton, or even previously broken threats. If the only reason you want to ban Magneton is because you need to prepare for it, then find better reasoning to build your argument around.
I find Magneton's sets to be powerful in their own way, but on their own merits none of them are honestly that absurdly threatening, in my opinion. All sets lack an easily spammable STAB (neither Steel or Electric are that spammable tbh), Specs lack speed, Scarf lack power and eviolite trades both for switching up moves. All sets even run mostly the same moves, so any versatility argument is mostly in ability, items, and the hidden power type (which really isn't that versatile), which really isn't much you can change. And while that isn't necessarily a bad thing, it means Magneton really isn't as unpredictable as some people say. Yes, Specs bombs defensive teams and Scarf scare offensive teams, but so does every other Pokemon that manages to run two different choice items well.
Magneton, for me, really isn't all that different from a other, just as strong, attackers.
I find Magneton's sets to be powerful in their own way, but on their own merits none of them are honestly that absurdly threatening, in my opinion. All sets lack an easily spammable STAB (neither Steel or Electric are that spammable tbh), Specs lack speed, Scarf lack power and eviolite trades both for switching up moves. All sets even run mostly the same moves, so any versatility argument is mostly in ability, items, and the hidden power type (which really isn't that versatile), which really isn't much you can change. And while that isn't necessarily a bad thing, it means Magneton really isn't as unpredictable as some people say. Yes, Specs bombs defensive teams and Scarf scare offensive teams, but so does every other Pokemon that manages to run two different choice items well.
Magneton, for me, really isn't all that different from a other, just as strong, attackers.
The way I see it Magneton definitely needs to leave the tier. Regardless of whether or not you believe it to be broken I really don't see how anyone can deny how much this single pokemon restricts teambuilding. I don't want to play a tier where I am forced to run a few select pokemon to not give Magneton room to grab free momentum and give me huge trouble and I imagine most others don't as well. Previously in NU each good team had to have a dedicated fire check because of the many strong fire type attackers that dominated the tier with Typlosion & Mega Camerupt without a doubt being the two strongest, but this is one single pokemon we are talking about that is forcing so many players to run all these pokemon that would otherwise rarely be seen just so it doesn't give them so much trouble.
I don't see the argument that Magneton "is just another strong attacker" like at all and fail to see how people can honestly make that comparison.
The way I see it is that no single Magneton set is on its own broken. But its the combination of Magneton's several strong sets, useful resistances, resistance to hazards, high stats, warping of the metagame around itself and just making so many pokemon a liability (I would love to be able to run Klinglang) that warrants its banning.
And to some people who for some reason fail to see how warped the metagame is and that because it has counters in Lanturn & Stunfisk that it somehow shouldn't be banned. I remember not even half a year ago when people were seriously justifying Serperior staying the tier because people couldn't see how every team running a Sap sipper mon was a negative influence on the tier.
I don't see the argument that Magneton "is just another strong attacker" like at all and fail to see how people can honestly make that comparison.
- No other strong attacker in the tier has warped the metagame to the extent of Magneton.
- No other strong attacker in the tier has the ridiculous versatility and unpredictability in its sets like Magneton.
- No other strong attacker in the tier has made so many pokemon not just less used but a straight up liability like Magneton.
- No other strong attacker in the tier has the capability of just grabbing momentum out of any bad matchup to the extent of Magneton. Yes pokemon like Swellow and Scyther can U-Turn out but Magneton (Like Heliolisk) hits practically everything that wants to come in on volt switch with other coverage moves, swellow and scyther can't do much besides U-Turn out versus practically any fat rock type in the tier like Rhydon.
- No other strong attacker in the tier gives the player so many useful resistances and immunities, Magneton is hands down the best flying resist in the tier.
- No other strong attacker in the tier is as resistant to hazards.
- No other strong attacker in the tier has as few issues with status like Magneton. It isn't on a timer like Zangoose or swellow, and isn't completely crippled by burns and paralysis like Sawk and scyther, even without an eviolite it is extremely hard to wear down.
The way I see it is that no single Magneton set is on its own broken. But its the combination of Magneton's several strong sets, useful resistances, resistance to hazards, high stats, warping of the metagame around itself and just making so many pokemon a liability (I would love to be able to run Klinglang) that warrants its banning.
And to some people who for some reason fail to see how warped the metagame is and that because it has counters in Lanturn & Stunfisk that it somehow shouldn't be banned. I remember not even half a year ago when people were seriously justifying Serperior staying the tier because people couldn't see how every team running a Sap sipper mon was a negative influence on the tier.
Jim E. Russler
zap7
Comparing Magneton to other strong choiced attackers in that way ignores how Volt Switch is what puts it over the edge. Things like Sawk and Pyroar aren't going to smack your switch ins with powerful moves before the opponent chooses a more favorable matchup, and the Pokemon that can block Magneton's Volt Switches are wary of its coverage options. Using a dedicated wall doesn't help like it might against other popular choice item users because switching it in can just give the opponent free damage and momentum.
It has a long list of other things going for it on top of that (defensive typing, ability options, natural bulk, hazard/status resistances and immunites, etc).
There are a lot of good things about it, but the main issue with Magneton is similar to the one people had with Heliolisk. To say that it's just another powerful choice item user is oversimplifying things.
I do appreciate you coming at people who are calling Magneton's sets unpredictable when the only thing that varies is the last moveslot (and items of course). The only thing you have to predict is which move the opponent is going to click, but you have to do that with literally every Pokemon so :^)
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Problem? I like PU :3
Anyway, since I'm almost at reqs (about 100 away) I think I should post thoughts even tho it's gonna get banned anyway. This thing is overcentralizing. You have to run an electric immunity that can take it on on every single team or you're kinda fucked. It's strong, it has volt switch, it has a few different good sets. I think the one new thing I can point out is that it's surrounded by partners that just make it even worse. Like things like sneasel benefit so much from it bringing up stunfisk and torterra usage and removing Mawile, or Zangoose also appreciates Mawile being gone. It overcentralizes the tier not just by forcing you to have the elec immunity, but also by making all of these other good mons even better, which moves them up, which moves mons that can check/counter them up. Can't wait for this thing to be gone. Also keep stunfisk/torterra PU pls ;;;;
edit: fuck smashpass tho
Magneton came at such a bad time.. with toad in the tier at least mag would run hp grass or something, leaving it was less coverage to stop other threats but we don't have it around anymore
My thing with mag is that it fits on almost every playstyle way too well, its weaknesses are so few, and switching in anything is a pain, because you know you're going to take a huge hit. Personally I dont feel as though stunfisk will be used as much when/if magneton is gone, it's kinda like the metang thing. Dragalge was wrecking faces left and right, and metang pretty much was needed for that certain mon, or there weren't many other answers. Thats how I feel about mag. Lanturn, great mon and all but I shouldn't feel like I gotta pack one of these mons on almost every single team or else im screwed. Pre-magneton, I hardly ever used lanturn, I was all about that spikes primeape stuff, now I feel so restricted in teambuilding that its making the game pretty unfun. Well mag and smashpass anyway, but thats a discussion hopefully for a *cough future suspect cough*
I'm all for new players coming to the tier and seeing what nu has to offer, but with magneton in the tier, I can't honestly say yeah! we've got many many options you can use! Cause in the end, it just feels like you'll be using lanturn etc etc, orrrr you'll be taking a great big t-bolt to the face
And that isn't fun at all
My thing with mag is that it fits on almost every playstyle way too well, its weaknesses are so few, and switching in anything is a pain, because you know you're going to take a huge hit. Personally I dont feel as though stunfisk will be used as much when/if magneton is gone, it's kinda like the metang thing. Dragalge was wrecking faces left and right, and metang pretty much was needed for that certain mon, or there weren't many other answers. Thats how I feel about mag. Lanturn, great mon and all but I shouldn't feel like I gotta pack one of these mons on almost every single team or else im screwed. Pre-magneton, I hardly ever used lanturn, I was all about that spikes primeape stuff, now I feel so restricted in teambuilding that its making the game pretty unfun. Well mag and smashpass anyway, but thats a discussion hopefully for a *cough future suspect cough*
I'm all for new players coming to the tier and seeing what nu has to offer, but with magneton in the tier, I can't honestly say yeah! we've got many many options you can use! Cause in the end, it just feels like you'll be using lanturn etc etc, orrrr you'll be taking a great big t-bolt to the face
And that isn't fun at all
The Goomy
Whitest Mexican Alive
I agree that saying "If you don't prepare for it, you lose to it" is a shit argument.
But legit, Magneton has pretty much only 3....3 reliable switch ins.
Lanturn. Stunfisk. Torterra.
That's it. Every team needs one of those 3. Every single team.
And that's the problem.
I shouldn't be forced to run 1 of 3 mons on every team that isn't HO.
Even HO has to run Evire tho, so it's basically the same thing.
I don't think Magneton is inherently broken, it's just incredibly limiting in the teambuilder.
Even more-so than MegaLix or Typh or Camel tbch.
I must say that I have been trying to get reqs recently without one of those 4 mons, and not even a ground type to see how manageable magneton is. And quite frankly, its unmanageable when you don't have one of those 4 (even evire is shakey since it dies tonspecs HP ground ;[). Because it can come in to one of your threats, threaten one of its many amazing sets and volt switch out on whatever you switch in. There is never a dead moment when magneton doesn't have a volt switch absorber to deal with, it just rampages and pillages your defensive core till you eventually lose it and then then rest of your offensive core won't be able to take any of its hits, since its just so powerful.
Most certainly, magneton isn't broken if you have one of those 3 or 4 mons like The Goomy said, but the fact YOU HAVE to run them is a clear demonstration to how ridiculously good it is, and yes, without those 4 mons, on balance at least, magneton is unmanageable tbh.
Its also quite boring to build with those 4 mons (bad argument ignore this but from a neutral starting NU perspective they might think this)unless your Deej Dy and run AV Seaking like a God.
Most certainly, magneton isn't broken if you have one of those 3 or 4 mons like The Goomy said, but the fact YOU HAVE to run them is a clear demonstration to how ridiculously good it is, and yes, without those 4 mons, on balance at least, magneton is unmanageable tbh.
Its also quite boring to build with those 4 mons (bad argument ignore this but from a neutral starting NU perspective they might think this)
I think you're exaggerating more and more. Now you're saying that if you don't have one of those pokemon in your team you're going to lose automatically against a team with a Magneton. I'm sure you are not that bad. It feels like you just want to have easier wins. Anyways, I'll post again the other reliable pokemon you could use but you don't want to mention in your argument: Vileplume, Lickilicky, Lickitung, Musharna, Audino, Kecleon and Roselia. Those are the ones that have good recovery. Of course, you can also use specially defensive SleepTalkers. With this, and counting the already mentioned checks, I wanted to make clear that there are a lot of options. We need to stop banning things just for being powerful special attackers at any point.
I hope this doesn't get deleted again under the pretext of "lack of knowledge of subject material" since I already have the reqs.
And those stop Volt Switching how?
You're missing out on an entire part of a reason that Magneton is being considered ban worthy. Any so called counter you have that cant stop volt switching isn't a counter because Magneton just Volt Switches into a more favorable matchup as you switch in, which will prevent you from recovering and then later on in the match you will be 2HKOd.
This is a pretty basic concept no matter which side you fall on, not understanding this leads other readers to believe that you don't have meta knowledge.
I will post my stancelater because I'm not 100% on the ban train.
You're missing out on an entire part of a reason that Magneton is being considered ban worthy. Any so called counter you have that cant stop volt switching isn't a counter because Magneton just Volt Switches into a more favorable matchup as you switch in, which will prevent you from recovering and then later on in the match you will be 2HKOd.
This is a pretty basic concept no matter which side you fall on, not understanding this leads other readers to believe that you don't have meta knowledge.
I will post my stancelater because I'm not 100% on the ban train.
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