Metagross (Anti-Lead)

[Despotar]

Topic Title: Anti-Lead Metagross

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/metagross

[SET]
name: Anti Lead
move 1: Zen Headbutt
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Earthquake / Ice Punch / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Bullet Punch
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 130 HP / 120 AtK / 252 SpA / 8 Speed /

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
- Beats almost every common lead with the exception of Heatran, and Roserade. (And if Infernape decides to FB first turn, you lose to him too.)
- Beats Swampert, Gliscor, and Hippodon, some of standard Metagross's biggest counters.
- Takes advantage of opponents expecting Occa Berry, allowing it to usually beat Infernape.


Additional Comments:
-If you run Ice Punch, this is the preferred spread.
Naughty, 136 HP / 112 Atk / 252 SpA / 8 Spe, as it allows you to always 2HKO Azelf leads.
-Original idea for this set was by NjSoccer.

Teammates and Counters:
-Lose's to Heatran Leads
-Lose's to Azelf if you lack Ice Punch
-Works well with Gyarados, as it can come in and set up on both Infernape -and Heatran

Hide

Lead Matchups:

- Grass Knot will do 99% - 116.8%, almost a certain OHKO.

- Grass Knot will do 76.2% - 90%, a 2HKO.

- I would outspeed and Zen Headbutt will OHKO.

- While he SR's, Zen Headbutt goes 144% - 170%; if he is sashed, i BP to 2HKO.

- Similar to Infernape, though sleep powder will sleep me

- Grass Knot will do 38.4% - 45.4%, enough to brake the sash, while he SR's. He will think that is my best move against him, so he will try to EQ, while Bullet Punch goes 76.2% - 90.1% for the 2HKO.

- Earthquake is a 2HKO.

- Same as Heatran.

- Ice Punch is a 2HKO, if you lack it, the you can leave it with under 20% with 2 BP's.

- Ice Punch a OHKO, or Zen HeadButt does 45.2% - 53.4% for a possible 2KO if lucky.

 

[Critical Hyper Beam]

I like it, honestly. I think it should be on-site.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Please normalize the EVs, so that they're ordered correctly and all EV amounts are divisible by 4.

 

[Despotar]

Oh, sorry. Fixed.

 

[Despotar]

They're really different. This one can beat Hippodon, Gliscor, and Swampert, it's traditional counters. It just depends what you want to beat.

 

[Shizzle]

None of those are Metagross counters zz, all of them fear Explosion, and Gliscor particularily the defensive variants fear Ice Punch [not lead Meta's that is, although once they see life orb they won't be coming in untill in KO range].

Also so what if EQ is a 2HKO on Heatran, he gets rocks up and slams you with Fire Blast because LO recoil is kind of noticeable...

Also remove the statement "beats all common leads", as it clearly does not beat all, just most. The exception of Heatran is a big one, and nearly all of this requires your opponent to just leave their lead in to die. Such as Jirachi, after getting rocks up they are going to be out of there, leaving you at 80 or 90% and them with rocks up and a metagross counter/check and with the momentum.

Also Aerodactyl isn't going to stay in against Metagross, Bullet Punch is far too obvious.

I think this is a lead which may be good in theory, however would not work well in actual gameplay because it relies on your opponent to not be switching out or anything....

 

[Despotar]

Yes, it lose's to some leads, but it beats a lot more.
It actually does stay in for the most part, I've been testing a lot, and it works really well. I suggest trying it out before posting.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I really think HP Fire needs a mention in AC. It gets rid of Forretress leads, who just love setting up on Metagross. It also gets rid of Scizor.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Oh, sorry. Fixed.

Not quite. Take a look at basically every set on-site. EVs go in the following order:

HP / Atk / Def / Satk / SDef / Spe

 

[NjSoccer]

I really think HP Fire needs a mention in AC. It gets rid of Forretress leads, who just love setting up on Metagross. It also gets rid of Scizor.

I was the one to make this set actually, and i realized the same thing.
Though not all anti-leads have to counter every single other lead. Thats why there is suggestions what this would be best paired up with. Looking at it, a nice mixed infernape that has mach punch (for heatran) and overheat/fire move (for forretress) seems to be a very good partner.

And question: If this qualifies to go on-site, does it have to go up there immediately? I originally made this set with my friend from a different forum, which then i posted it in this thread, then Despotar asked me to do an analysis on it. I would like to discuss this first with my friend; as we make movesets like this all the time that are creative and unique to the metagame that we sometimes wouldn't want to share up on smogon for the simple reason of keeping it secretive.

 

[Despotar]

Not quite. Take a look at basically every set on-site. EVs go in the following order:

HP / Atk / Def / Satk / SDef / Spe

Oh.. Whoops. I don't know what I was thinking.
@ Nj, even if it gets approve it'll be sometime till it gets onsite, so you have plenty of time.

 

[JuanDeLolo]

(Metagross) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 232 HP/228 Atk/20 Def/30 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bullet Punch
- Explosion
- Earthquake
- Iron Head



I prefer this anti-lead gross,In my opinion It is way better..

 

[Despotar]

(Metagross) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 232 HP/228 Atk/20 Def/30 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bullet Punch
- Explosion
- Earthquake
- Iron Head

I prefer this anti-lead gross,In my opinion It is way better..

Why is it way better?
This one beats it's standard counters. Swampert, Hippodon, etc. Also beats Machamp, and depending of your moveset, Forretress.
One isn't superior to the other, they just counter different things.

 

[Setsuna]

I don't see it possible. I think someone mentioned that there is a very effective Anti-Lead Metagross set going on in OU already, which basically does every single thing that the proposed one in the OP of this topic does, and in fact better in some cases.

The set that's in the OP is practically made to lose against Sleep inducer Pokemon (mainly: Roserade, Smeargle, Bronzong), and be set up on several others as well. However, if we analyze the other Anti-lead, this is what we get: each one of the Pokemon that you mentioned in the description (Swampert, Gliscor, Hippowdon, etcetera) can't take an Explosion; Azelf, Aerodactyl, Machamp, Roserade receive a straight 2HKO by MM + BP no matter what they do; and finally, it does not open up any opportunity for Skarmory, Forretress, Bronzong, and CM Jirachi to set up, respectively, because Explosion is there to deal an excessive amount of damage even if they resist it. Yes, you can argue that by using HP Fire you can hit all of these Pokemon that I just listed, but if you use said move you'll then lose to some important leads, and even then, this is questionable.

I don't mean to say that this set that you have proposed, Despotar, is detrimental and doesn't work, but I believe that it is inferior to the one that I linked to at the beginning of this post. There is no need to have two Anti-lead sets of the same Pokemon on-site when they both accomplish similar goals, but one of them happens to be less effective overall.

QC REJECTED (1/3)

 

[Curtains]

I think the regular anti lead set is better. Lum berry is more useful in the long run and even though you Ko some rare leads its still useful to have the bulk that the regular anti-lead set has (that still beats machamp) to switch in on stuff like jirachi and such.The only thing this is doing is getting the KO on some rare leads in exchange for stealth rock which is the best move in the game which is not worth it when there are better anti lead sets like machamp (that last longer if its successful) and the regular metagross anti lead. With this set now i have to find another pokemon to use stealth rock (gliscor or celebi most likely due to synergy reasons) which is generally wasting a pokemon and a move slot. Machamp with heatran is better because i can actually use heatran and machamp later in the match.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

Since my analysis has been mentioned several times in this thread, I'm forced to take part in this.

I think you don't quite understand what an 'Anti-Lead' needs to do in order to be a successful 'Anti-Lead'. Anti-Leads need to be able to create a situation in which the user will have an advantage over the opponent, and against most leads. If you Grass Knot on Swampert and if you Explode on it - it doesn't matter, since you're still disabling the option of laying down SR. This set loses to common leads such as Azelf, which almost automatically deems this as an unaffective Anti-Lead. This is your set in a nutshell.

 

[cim]

I had a post typed up but Blue_Tornado summed up my thoughts perfectly. If you're doing an antilead, you're aiming to stop other leads and gain a bit of momentum while capitalizing on the lack of the advantage the opponent was banking on in Turn 1. The other Metagross does that better for pretty much everything.

 

[Ice-eyes]

The question is: Is it worth losing to Smeargle, Roserade and Machamp just to OHKO Swampert/Hippowdon (which are probably going to switch out expecting Explosion anyway)? I don't think it is, and I'd rather use the standard Meta lead every time (or Empoleon, for that matter, which doesn't lose to Tran).

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I don't see it possible. I think someone mentioned that there is a very effective Anti-Lead Metagross set going on in OU already, which basically does every single thing that the proposed one in the OP of this topic does, and in fact better in some cases.

The set that's in the OP is practically made to lose against Sleep inducer Pokemon (mainly: Roserade, Smeargle, Bronzong), and be set up on several others as well. However, if we analyze the other Anti-lead, this is what we get: each one of the Pokemon that you mentioned in the description (Swampert, Gliscor, Hippowdon, etcetera) can't take an Explosion; Azelf, Aerodactyl, Machamp, Roserade receive a straight 2HKO by MM + BP no matter what they do; and finally, it does not open up any opportunity for Skarmory, Forretress, Bronzong, and CM Jirachi to set up, respectively, because Explosion is there to deal an excessive amount of damage even if they resist it. Yes, you can argue that by using HP Fire you can hit all of these Pokemon that I just listed, but if you use said move you'll then lose to some important leads, and even then, this is questionable.

I don't mean to say that this set that you have proposed, Despotar, is detrimental and doesn't work, but I believe that it is inferior to the one that I linked to at the beginning of this post. There is no need to have two Anti-lead sets of the same Pokemon on-site when they both accomplish similar goals, but one of them happens to be less effective overall.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

QC REJECTED (2/3)

 

[panamaxis]

I don't see it possible. I think someone mentioned that there is a very effective Anti-Lead Metagross set going on in OU already, which basically does every single thing that the proposed one in the OP of this topic does, and in fact better in some cases.

The set that's in the OP is practically made to lose against Sleep inducer Pokemon (mainly: Roserade, Smeargle, Bronzong), and be set up on several others as well. However, if we analyze the other Anti-lead, this is what we get: each one of the Pokemon that you mentioned in the description (Swampert, Gliscor, Hippowdon, etcetera) can't take an Explosion; Azelf, Aerodactyl, Machamp, Roserade receive a straight 2HKO by MM + BP no matter what they do; and finally, it does not open up any opportunity for Skarmory, Forretress, Bronzong, and CM Jirachi to set up, respectively, because Explosion is there to deal an excessive amount of damage even if they resist it. Yes, you can argue that by using HP Fire you can hit all of these Pokemon that I just listed, but if you use said move you'll then lose to some important leads, and even then, this is questionable.

I don't mean to say that this set that you have proposed, Despotar, is detrimental and doesn't work, but I believe that it is inferior to the one that I linked to at the beginning of this post. There is no need to have two Anti-lead sets of the same Pokemon on-site when they both accomplish similar goals, but one of them happens to be less effective overall.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Sorry...better luck next time and thanks for posting this thread.
QC REJECTED (3/3)

 

[-Eddie-]

Didn't you see the post I put in the creative set thread? You could switch from 120 Atk EVs and 8 Spd EVs with a speed boosting nature to 0 Atk EVs and 76 Spd EVs with an attack boosting nature and still have the same stats, yet have 52 extra EVs.