So what now? Go with staller (highly unlikely) with a 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 SpA spread, or dedicated special wall with Light Screen and 212 HP / 252 SpD / 44 SpA? I honestly don't see the significance of the Bold one, with the advent of the new offensively based metagame.
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Milotic Discussion
- Thread starter No Limitz
- Start date
You're mistaken. That's Facade. Guts and Marvel Scale activate under sleep in game.
Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but I liked Milotic in ADV and I'm hoping I can find a way to get him to work here.
Speed is important here. If you give Milotic 96 Speed EVs, it outspeeds Adament 252 Speed EV Tyranitar. With max HP and 76 Defense EVs, Milotic is guaranteed to survive Stone Edge and the Sand Stream that follows. Although hopefully you predict correctly and take one of his other, less damaging moves. At that point, Milotic can put Tyranitar to sleep and can recover off the damage. Not anywhere close to a perfect solution, but Milotic switches in, survives, and forces Tyranitar to switch out.
If you put your remaining 84 EVs in Special Defense and use a Calm Nature, you're guarenteed to survive 2 Draco Meteors from Salamence if Leftovers are active. Otherwise, it's about a 50/50 chance. With leftovers working, you can still switch into a Draco Meteor and scare Salamence off.
Milotic @ Leftovers
Trait: Calm
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 96 Spd / 84 Sdef
Surf/HP Electric
Ice Beam
Hypnosis
Recover
The sleep talk set won't work. You're just asking for something to come in and set up on you.
Milotic performs well enough in ideal conditions, but once you add in the minor damage from things like Spikes and Sand Storm, I just don't think that it can keep up in this generation. I'm definately going to try it out, but I don't have high expectations.
Speed is important here. If you give Milotic 96 Speed EVs, it outspeeds Adament 252 Speed EV Tyranitar. With max HP and 76 Defense EVs, Milotic is guaranteed to survive Stone Edge and the Sand Stream that follows. Although hopefully you predict correctly and take one of his other, less damaging moves. At that point, Milotic can put Tyranitar to sleep and can recover off the damage. Not anywhere close to a perfect solution, but Milotic switches in, survives, and forces Tyranitar to switch out.
If you put your remaining 84 EVs in Special Defense and use a Calm Nature, you're guarenteed to survive 2 Draco Meteors from Salamence if Leftovers are active. Otherwise, it's about a 50/50 chance. With leftovers working, you can still switch into a Draco Meteor and scare Salamence off.
Milotic @ Leftovers
Trait: Calm
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 96 Spd / 84 Sdef
Surf/HP Electric
Ice Beam
Hypnosis
Recover
The sleep talk set won't work. You're just asking for something to come in and set up on you.
Milotic performs well enough in ideal conditions, but once you add in the minor damage from things like Spikes and Sand Storm, I just don't think that it can keep up in this generation. I'm definately going to try it out, but I don't have high expectations.
Poor Milotic. Is one of my favourite Pokemon and it was one of the best Pokemon in Advanced. Now it is even worse than that stupid thing called Slowbro :(
Milotic @ Leftovers
Trait: Marvel Scale
Effort: 252 HP / 196 Def / 4 SpAtt / 56 SpDef
Bold nature < +Def / -Att >
- Light Screen
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Surf
Can anything actually kill that set? Not easily. Don't think so. Nope.
Trait: Marvel Scale
Effort: 252 HP / 196 Def / 4 SpAtt / 56 SpDef
Bold nature < +Def / -Att >
- Light Screen
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Surf
Can anything actually kill that set? Not easily. Don't think so. Nope.
^^Why Sleep Talk+Rest+LS> when you could use Surf(HP Electric)/Ice Beam/Light Screen/Recover
Marvel Scale abuse for better defense....
Would this be a decent Milotic set? Granted, it is similar to set 4 in the original post, but my personal EV spread is quite different:
Milotic @ Poison Orb
Nature: Bold
EVs: 156 Hp, 252 Defense, 100 Special Attack
Surf
Ice Beam
Recover
Mirror Coat
Personally, it's kind of a mix between its primary function as a wall and as a special sweeper. With the combination of a Marvel Scale (activated with the Poison Orb), a Bold nature, decent Hp EVs and full defense EVs it can wall pretty much wall most physical sweepers with the help of recover to help it last, and it can even do quite well against special sweepers even without Special Defense EVs with Mirror Coat. The only reason why I personally can use it as a special sweeper is because I'm either including a Baton-Passing Substituting Ninjask or an Agility BP Scizor on my team, so it can get the speed it needs to sweep with Ice Beam and Surf if need be with back up from Recover.
Does this seem like a decent set-up, or am I totally out to lunch? I apologize if its bad as I'm quite new to this community (just registered about an hour ago actually).
Milotic @ Poison Orb
Nature: Bold
EVs: 156 Hp, 252 Defense, 100 Special Attack
Surf
Ice Beam
Recover
Mirror Coat
Personally, it's kind of a mix between its primary function as a wall and as a special sweeper. With the combination of a Marvel Scale (activated with the Poison Orb), a Bold nature, decent Hp EVs and full defense EVs it can wall pretty much wall most physical sweepers with the help of recover to help it last, and it can even do quite well against special sweepers even without Special Defense EVs with Mirror Coat. The only reason why I personally can use it as a special sweeper is because I'm either including a Baton-Passing Substituting Ninjask or an Agility BP Scizor on my team, so it can get the speed it needs to sweep with Ice Beam and Surf if need be with back up from Recover.
Does this seem like a decent set-up, or am I totally out to lunch? I apologize if its bad as I'm quite new to this community (just registered about an hour ago actually).
Rest/Sleep Talk isn't exactly solid... it's more of a sleep absorber. Why not use recover/reflect or recover/light screen? You get double normal defenses, and you're not relying on luck to do what you need to in those two turns... weird, but whatever.
EDIT: Never mind, she doesn't get reflect. I'm just used to seeing the two screens both there.
EDIT: Never mind, she doesn't get reflect. I'm just used to seeing the two screens both there.
Yeah, ResTalk would never be used at all if Milotic had a single Def boosting support option like Barrier.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but Marvel Scale increases Def one stage. Barrier increases by two. With ResTalk set, you use a turn to begin Rest before you attack. Well with Barrier, you essentially use that turn to instead get a double boost and you're still given free choice over attacks. This also helps because you can sponge a status to get the Def boost along with the Barrier boost. Only worse part is that Recover doesn't recover the full bar like Rest did.
Milotic would see a lot more use if it had Barrier, which I can totally see as a probable move.
Surf
Ice Beam
Recover
Toxic/Hp Electric
@Leftovers/Burn Orb/Expert Belt
EVs: 150/0/0/108/0/252 Bold
He outspeeds Tyranitar; with 150 hp and bold can take some hits by Tyranitar and Gaburaisu, alot by Gyarados that stops using Hp Electric. Toxic is nice for Calmcune, Slowbro and Azelf. With 252 spdef evs, this takes something like 45% damage from the first Meteoric Swarm by a ModestAgmence and kills it with Ice Beam. Recover is probably the best reason to use Milotic. He's fastest than Slowbro, have more spdef and isn't weakened to Dark and Bug.
Leftovers gives more staying power and resistance to the Sandstorm, but it isn't really necessary because of Recover. Burn Orb gives to Milotic a defense boost that is generally great to beat monsters like Gaburaisu but can gives some problems taking hits in the Sandstorm...Expert Belt is another GREAT choice to hit hardly Tyranitar,Gyarados,Gaburaisu etc.
Leftovers gives more staying power and resistance to the Sandstorm, but it isn't really necessary because of Recover. Burn Orb gives to Milotic a defense boost that is generally great to beat monsters like Gaburaisu but can gives some problems taking hits in the Sandstorm...Expert Belt is another GREAT choice to hit hardly Tyranitar,Gyarados,Gaburaisu etc.
I dont know if this has been mentioned in this topic yet, but in 90% of situations the Burn Orb on Milotic is not going to work.
The Burn Orb means milotic takes 12.5% damage per turn, but also add to that the fact that it means Milotic wont be holding leftovers. Therefore the Burn Orb effectively means Milotic will take 18.75% more damage per turn than it would if it had leftovers. To make the defense boost worthwhile it needs to save you from 18.75% damage per turn. You would have to be taking more than 37.5% damage per turn for it to be worthwhile.
Consider that after the initial switch in, the most health you Milotic could have when it switches out is 87.5%. It switches in, takes 37.5% damage (50% left) and then gets hit for 12.5% by the burn. Leaving Milotic with 37.5% health remaining.
I love how well it works out so that the exact point where it saves you more health than leftovers is the exact point where you get 2hkoed and it doesnt matter anyway.
Have a nice day.
The Burn Orb means milotic takes 12.5% damage per turn, but also add to that the fact that it means Milotic wont be holding leftovers. Therefore the Burn Orb effectively means Milotic will take 18.75% more damage per turn than it would if it had leftovers. To make the defense boost worthwhile it needs to save you from 18.75% damage per turn. You would have to be taking more than 37.5% damage per turn for it to be worthwhile.
Consider that after the initial switch in, the most health you Milotic could have when it switches out is 87.5%. It switches in, takes 37.5% damage (50% left) and then gets hit for 12.5% by the burn. Leaving Milotic with 37.5% health remaining.
I love how well it works out so that the exact point where it saves you more health than leftovers is the exact point where you get 2hkoed and it doesnt matter anyway.
Have a nice day.
Just go with the classic Lefties and try to switch into some status, but that's gonna be hard, especially since the only status that you could "like" is Burn or Paralysis, but Burn will slowly bring you back to ~20% HP (where your Defense boost won't be that useful :S) with Sandstorm running around and Paralysis can fuck you if you get fully paralyzed...
Sleep Talker is the way to go, works fine in paper, works fine in Competitive.
Sleep Talker is the way to go, works fine in paper, works fine in Competitive.
... *head explodes*
I guess I don't understand where you're getting the 37.5% from. Can you possibly explain? I'm... er, rather unacquainted with Pokepercentages.
Ok the defense boost from Marvel Scale reduces damage (from physical attacks) by a third. So an attack that would do 30% will do 20% instead.
The amount of health per turn you are losing from having burn orb and not having leftovers is 18.75% (12.5% from burn plus 6.25% from leftovers). For the burn orb to be advantageous, it has to have reduced damage by more than 18.75%. So basically for Burn Orb to be advantageous it means that one third of the regular damage has to be at least 18.75%. IE the regular damage must be at least 56.25%. The damage you take from that same attack with the burn orb is two thirds of 56.25 or 37.5%.
For instance lets say it is a Salamence CB Dragon Claw and for arguments sake lets say it does 54% damage without burn orb leaving you at 46% health. You then gain health from leftovers leaving you with 52.5%. If you had burn orb instead you would take 36% (two thirds of 54) and then take 12.5% damage from burn for a total of 48.5% damage leaving you with 51.5% health. Obviously in this case Leftovers is better.
If the initial attack had done 56.25% damage the end result would have been the same whichever item you had. If the initial attack had done any more damage than that then you would have ended up with more health overall than with leftovers.
This will hardly ever have a significant effect on your battle as you are being 2hkoed anyway, and a faster pokemon will kill you before you can respond. If you are facing a slower Pokemon you wont be able to recover off the damage, and unless you can OHKO the attacking pokemon you will be 2hkoed either way. Basically it is only useful for turning a OHKO into a 2hko or for having slightly more health after switching into a >56.25% damage attack and KOing the attacking pokemon (or just forcing it to switch).
In short: Dont use burn orb on Milotic.
Have a nice day.
The amount of health per turn you are losing from having burn orb and not having leftovers is 18.75% (12.5% from burn plus 6.25% from leftovers). For the burn orb to be advantageous, it has to have reduced damage by more than 18.75%. So basically for Burn Orb to be advantageous it means that one third of the regular damage has to be at least 18.75%. IE the regular damage must be at least 56.25%. The damage you take from that same attack with the burn orb is two thirds of 56.25 or 37.5%.
For instance lets say it is a Salamence CB Dragon Claw and for arguments sake lets say it does 54% damage without burn orb leaving you at 46% health. You then gain health from leftovers leaving you with 52.5%. If you had burn orb instead you would take 36% (two thirds of 54) and then take 12.5% damage from burn for a total of 48.5% damage leaving you with 51.5% health. Obviously in this case Leftovers is better.
If the initial attack had done 56.25% damage the end result would have been the same whichever item you had. If the initial attack had done any more damage than that then you would have ended up with more health overall than with leftovers.
This will hardly ever have a significant effect on your battle as you are being 2hkoed anyway, and a faster pokemon will kill you before you can respond. If you are facing a slower Pokemon you wont be able to recover off the damage, and unless you can OHKO the attacking pokemon you will be 2hkoed either way. Basically it is only useful for turning a OHKO into a 2hko or for having slightly more health after switching into a >56.25% damage attack and KOing the attacking pokemon (or just forcing it to switch).
In short: Dont use burn orb on Milotic.
Have a nice day.
Thank you. I've been trying to explain why this is a bad idea to my friends since the Burn Orb was discovered. Ah the joy of numbers.
I've personally never switched in and immediately hit Rest to "set up" my defense. I'll switch in and sponge status or take a hit I can survive, then attack normally until my health is low. Once I'm hurt, I'll use Rest to recover my health and status, and rely on the additional defense to keep me alive until I can rest again. I probably would use Barrier if it was available. Having to set up my defenses every time I switch seems counterproductive to what makes Milotic work.