Loppunite replaces Arena Trap with Scrappy, so you can only really trap before you mega.
Thank you captain obvious.Loppunite replaces Arena Trap with Scrappy, so you can only really trap before you mega.
Regardling the stones - my problem for deleting it, like I deleted Yveltal. Yveltal should be B rankCameruptite: C -> B/A
Sheer Force is such an awesome ability for some Pokémon and it's clearly better than Slowbronite or Absolite.
Ampharosite B <-> Gyaradosite C
ampharosite goes to C and gyaradosite goes to B for dummies
Dark is a better defensive typing than Dragon, especially when considering the possible weakness/resistance synergy with some types (think Poison/Dark). Gyaradosite gives more bulk too and doesn't cost speed (well, the speed is pretty useless but still) and special attack (same when considering ampharosite/gyaradosite users are defensive pokémons).
Before we go anywhere with this, I agree with both nominations, maybe if only slightly towards Toxapex due to its lack of defensive utility (most of the defensive utility comes from TSpikes), but there are a few things you missed out in both posts, as you just stated what they did, nor what their metagame presence is like.Magearna: A+ -> S
just read my post on Magearna
Toxapex: A- -> A
his Gyaradosite set is all you wish for a balanced team. He pairs really well with top tiers mons such as Lucarionite Zygarde or Lucarionite Terrakion with its ability to keep its normal form if desired to more reliably check Entei or Magearna courtesy of Regenerator and Water-type and ability to set up TSpikes through Magic Bouncers after mega-evolving and the added Dark-type instead of Water-type letting him counter Lunala, Mew and Blissey, annoying mons when playing balance, is really appreciated and it deserves more usage and higher rank in my opinion, tho the
4th moveslot syndrom is a little bit problematic with him and hampers him (Tspikes/Recover/Payback/[Toxic/Haze])
(he also counters every form of defensive arceus except groundceus)
Here's the big bad of the nominations. You're totally incorrect here - Groudon-Primal has a huge set compendium, and trying to cover all of them is as hard as trying to cover all the Magearna sets, because one will most likely be able to break your team. First off, if you discount the fact that Blissey isn't in a good spot in the metagame at the moment, you should notice that Groudon-Primal can run its defensive set much more efficiently (Overheat / Toxic / Precipice / SR). Under common circumstances as the only Stealth Rock setter in the game, there are a bunch of mons that can bounce back hazards and outright counter it, however, it is very easy to Toxic the setters that do not, and therefore very few defoggers end up being able to beat defensive Primal Groudon. This is part of a reasoning why Ho-oh has seen a rise in usage, particularly for its Defog set, which is able to take on a bunch of relevant SR users and take offensive Magearna on in the process.Primal-Groudon: S -> A+
I mean, if anybody that is not named QT knows why he's in S rank, please explain to me.
With the popularity of Lucarionite Zygarde and Salamence, without counting all its checks and counters such as Venusaurite Gliscor/Mandibuzz/Hippowdon, Sablenite Mew, Lucarionite Terrakion, Arceus-Ground, Blue Orb Golisopod, Ho-Oh...
Its inability to run defensive SR sets because of Blissey and the fact that any entry hazard remover can counter it, and its inability to run SR + SD sets because of 4th moveslot syndrom, its only niche is a solid mixed wallbreaker with Overheat/Precipice Blades/Smack Down/SD which is difficult to wall but he really don't deserve S rank.
yea ma boi kangaskhanView attachment 119890UR -> B-
Mega Kangaskhan has stayed under the radar for a long time now, but with recent meta changes, it has become a lot stronger.
Toxapex @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
- Haze / Payback
Kangaskhan-Mega @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Parental Bond
EVs: 180 HP / 96 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Crunch
- Fake Out
- Wish
what this core does is enable mkang to 2hko nearly every pokemon in the tier after they are poisoned bar Blissey(which is pp stalled out of heal bells easily and can’t ko Kanga without Toxic) Arceus-Flying (which is forced to recover constantly so if it’s toxiced it can’t refresh and dies) and Arceus-Ghost (which is a free switchin for Toxapex). Toxic Spikes allows Kangaskhan to become one of the best balance breakers in the tier.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-757124169 this against chazm replay highlights kangaskhans ability to break even high HP mons after a layer of tspikes is up
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-757115663 while stresh uses a somewhat unorthodox offense in this battle kangaskhan still is able to pressure even offensive mons
I do not agree with this nomination.More nominations to make pre-OMPL. Going to start with a controversial one:
Zygarde: S -> A+
When it comes to looking at Zygarde over the past few years, it has certainly been strong, but is definitely at its worst point yet. New counters such as the likes of Ice Beam Manectite Mew and Aggronite Buzzwole make Zygarde a lot less threatening simply because one of them outright dodges Toxic Spikes and the other makes Dragon Tail progressively weaker, eventually leading Zygarde into a situation where another mon may beat it. The biggest problem with Lucarionite Zygarde right now is its tendency to force -atespeed to come in after phazing one of its many checks, which is a huge problem for it, as it will end up being picked off regardless of how many boosts it has under its belt. Even versus offense, this is a very difficult job to do, as checks such as Landorus-Therian, Calm Mind Arceus-Ground / Arceus-Fairy, Lunala, Altarianite Zygarde itself... heck, even Altarianite, the most different variant, has Kartana to use it as setup fodder, Magearna as a good revenge killer (which can also force out once), Ho-oh deals significant damage with Brave Bird,
You see the point. Checks are abundant to almost every variant and there are some universal counters, like the ones seen above. Toxic Spikes particularly might support Zygarde well in taking out other checks but it will barely ever pass by Buzzwole unless it's caught non-mega, can be traded via Synchronize on Mew, all of these little things that make Zygarde less effective in practice. If they have another Toxic Spikes absorber, often times Zygarde won't ever be able to abuse Toxic Spikes without having that dealt with itself, and therefore, the likes of Ice Beam Arceus can answer very well. It is quite difficult for it to nab a KO as it can't warp its matchups very well and therefore struggles heavily with its counters, unlike PDon and Magearna, which are incredible at doing these roles.
Support options are also fairly limited, with few mons luring in switchins for Zygarde. Very few mons are safe setup fodder for it - the likes of Gliscor and Toxapex are the relevant few which I could see being problematic, and both have ways of working around it, as Gliscor can nab momentum and Toxapex can just set Toxic Spikes / toxic Zygarde, which makes it much harder for it to setup. This usually means it comes in dented for the roles it needs to compress - making it ineffective vs the majority of checks. As a result, it just isn't strong enough to be S, imo.
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Basically all of these calcs are assuming at zygarde had setup, and not the attacking mons. EG fairyceus. Fairyceus also runs lots of physical defense so can tank anything below +3 that zygarde throws at it. All buzzwole variants just stops zygarde in its tracks, entei can espeed it and ohko the generic altarianite variants. With the rise of manectites in MnM recently, intimidate can take down zygarde's +1 set ups. I don't see what the point was of you including the magearna calcs, because you just proved it to win. I think what Chazm meant by CM pokemon, was that they would usually have +1 by the time zygarde came in. Thank you Chazm and Stresh for pointing out what a bad poster I am, but I hope this is an improvement.Not going to comment on other noms, I either agree with them or don't have enough experience with them in the current metagame in order to make a proper argument against their movement. I just want to focus on one nomination specifically.
I do not agree with this nomination.
I feel like this nomination is underselling Zygarde's performance and the effectiveness of the supposed checks listed. While yes all of these mons have seen some use in recent times, all of them have seen some use because Zygarde is that potent and is needed to be prepped for that well or else you will lose to it. Even then I want argue against the effectiveness in practice for a good chunk of these mons vs Zygarde variants along with as a whole in this current meta. To start out I want to say that Aggronite Buzzwole is the best mon in my eyes to use if you want an answer to the vast majority of Zygarde variants. It deals with all stones fairly handily although if enough pressure is applied Lucarionite can be problematic but most of the time Buzzwole will win out. That's perfectly fine, if there wasn't a mon out there that won versus Zygarde or any threat out there then said threat might be worthy of a ban from the metagame. Buzzwole is also a decent physical check in general against other mons such as Kartana, Terrakion or Pinsirite Magearna if the Buzzwole is running drain punch. (Yes drain Punch is a viable option over earthquake on Buzzwole if the rest of your team is properly equipped to deal with fires that might switch in.) Along with that Buzzwole can act as a late game Bulk Up wincon that takes advantage of defensive walls such as Blissey. Buzzwole has a good, solid niche outside of checking Zygarde, what seperates it from the rest in my eyes is how well it deals with all, or at least both Lucarionite and Altairianite Zygarde along with holding its own weight outside of checking Zygarde.
Ice beam Manectite Mew may be able to deal with Lucarionite handily but it struggles against bulky Altairianite variants (A bulky spread has proven the most fruitful in practice for me while using Altairianite Zygarde due to being able to live 4 seismic tosses with 401 hp and other hits in general.)
Mew switches in on Alt Zygarde, who dragon danced that turn on a forced switch. The next turn Zygarde is able to ddance again because Ice Beam has an extremely minimal chance of 2hkoing Zygarde.
0 SpA Mew Ice Beam vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 170-202 (42.3 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Zygarde can then proceed to 2hko Mew and possibly sweep backed by +1 attack and +2 speed.
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 220-259 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sure there may be other offensive answers to Zygarde on that team, but the point here is that Manectite Mew can only handily stop 1 of the 2 main Zygarde stone variants. Outside of that all mew has to offer is being a defogger that loses momentum for the user, possibly allowing another mon to set up or maybe even tspikes going up since even if Mew runs earth power it does not do enough to Gyaradosite Toxapex to dissuade it. In my eyes your defogger should be able to come in on the mon that it is supposed to stop and either force it out or KO it. If it cant do either then it's merely defog fodder, which just seems really poor in my eyes.
Against atespeed Lucarionite Zygarde may not be in that great shape, but Altairianite Zygarde has a fighting chance since Zyg can't stop itself once boosted, meaning that Entei is really the only atespeed mon standing in +1 Alt Zyg's way. Even then Entei isn't a 100% answer.
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 290-344 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Frustration vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 372-438 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Because of this Entei has to either get a 56.3% frustration roll, or get a good tarrow roll, then hit and burn with a Sacred Fire otherwise it will lose to a combination of thousand arrows into espeed.
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Entei: 328-386 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Entei: 131-154 (30.6 - 36%) -- 49.1% chance to 3HKO
Basically the phazing into atespeed along with atespeed bit in general doesn't apply anywhere close as much to Altairianite Zygarde as it does to Lucarionite. This focused specifically on opposing Zygarde and Entei since you yourself argued for a Weavile drop and other ate mons such as Metagross and Landorus-t don't have priority that can stop a boosted Zygarde properly.
Landorus-t has to either be Altairianite, or explode in order to stop a Zygarde that is at +1.
252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamencite Landorus-Therian: 172-204 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamencite Landorus-Therian: 160-190 (50.1 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamencite Landorus-Therian Frustration vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsirite Landorus-Therian: 211-250 (66.1 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsirite Landorus-Therian: 198-234 (62 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Landorus-Therian Frustration vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Calm mind Groundceus isn't too great either at stopping a +1 Zygarde.
+1 200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Ground: 224-264 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Ground: 241-285 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arceus-Ground Ice Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Lucarionite Zygarde: 316-376 (78.2 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arceus-Ground Ice Beam vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Altairianite Zygarde: 158-188 (39.4 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Judgment and Ice beam do the same damage to Alt Zyg.
Fairyceus has a better damage output against both Zygarde variants but it still falls short.
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 318-374 (78.7 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 224-264 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 241-285 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lunala has to either be modest specs and get a roll or burn its Z move to stop both vairants of +1 Zygarde. Choice scarf can dispactch Lucarionite but it cannot beat +1 Altairianite.
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 191-225 (46 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunala: 382-450 (92 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 150-177 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunala: 301-355 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 177-209 (42.6 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 200+ Atk Adaptability Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunala: 354-418 (85.3 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Lunala 200 BP Moongeist Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 355-418 (87.8 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Lunala 200 BP Moongeist Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 390-459 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Lunala Ice Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Lucarionite Zygarde: 428-504 (105.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Lunala Moonblast vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Altairianite Zygarde: 226-266 (56.3 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lunala Moonblast vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 372-438 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Lucarionite Zygarde has a more difficult time when facing more offensively oriented teams but what it lacks there it makes up in requiring different defensive answers compared to Altairainite Zygarde and being more capable of breaking through certain checks with its greater offensive might. Along with that Lucarionite Zygarde is the only Zygarde that can run purely on thousand arrows as its attacking move with dragon dance, substitute and pain split being the other moves, a nightmare for stall and more passive builds to face. Deciding on which Zygarde stone and variant to use will bring different checks and counters for each stone and variant, this can be dealt with by the rest of the team as the build needs it.
Continuing on with listed checks from Chazm's post, Thousand arrows is a roll to 2hko Kartana meanwhile unboosted smart strike doesn't OHKO.
Edit: Kart outspeeds LUL, you still have to run smart strike kart and give up return utility
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagrossite Kartana: 119-141 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucarionite Kartana: 121-143 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Kartana Smart Strike vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 296-350 (73.8 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Kartana Smart Strike vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 340-400 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Kartana Return vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 144-170 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Are you sure you want your Magearna eating a big hit from +1 tarrows? I mean sure you might've stopped the Altairianite Zygarde but now mag is hurt. P.S. Pins mag isn't a good Zyg answer.
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sablenite Magearna: 220-260 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Manectite Magearna: 176-208 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Pinsirite Magearna: 132-156 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Smacked Down Pinsirite Magearna: 264-312 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaurite Magearna: 180-214 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Fleur Cannon OHKOs every time.
+1 252+ Atk Magearna Iron Head vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 312-368 (77.8 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ho-oh has to hit and burn because brave bird doesn't OHKO even if banded or z brave bird. If Ho-oh is bulky it gets more chances to do so but still has to rely on burning.
252+ Atk Ho-Oh 190 BP Brave Bird vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 253-298 (63 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 240-283 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 132-156 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Grounded Ho-Oh: 264-312 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Notice how all 3 of those mons have a more difficult matchup vs a +1 Lucarionite Zygarde.
If a check means that a mon can dent but not stop a +1 Zygarde then yeah they are common, but if we go by stopping the Zygarde at +1 then there aren't that many solid answers out there without losing 1 mon and having another get chunked just to get rid of it. Sure hazards hinder Zygarde's potential but they also can allow for something that would normally hinder zyg to be crippled. Hazards are a two way street which means that they could be up and weakening a supposed zyg check, along with that they aren't guaranteed to always be up either. Even then something like toxic isn't the end of the world for Zygarde, all it might need is to get to +1 without dying or without being reduced to a certain amount of HP just so it can live 1 hit and it might just win the game. (Also who in their right mind stays in with Toxapex vs a Zygarde to tspike or toxic are you insane?) That's why Zygarde is so threatening. It doesn't need to lure in its checks to be effective, albeit those lures do exist in the mono tarrows luc zyg set I mentioned earlier, Facade on certain builds to muscle through walls that rely on status, HP fire to take advantage of mega evolved Aggronite Buzzwole and Lucarionite draco meteor to dent pre mega Buzzwole on the initial switchin. Zygarde does have some lure sets, but usually it doesn't need or want them.
To summarize. Zygarde has very few true checks and counters. Buzzwole is the best answer to the two most common Zygarde stones but some variants can deal with Buzzwole better than others so its not a 100% guaranteed stop but it's as close as you can get. Relying on a check that only chips and doesn't actually kill Zygarde isn't smart because you won't always get the damage off you need for supposed check to kill, hazards are almost never guaranteed. Along with that a check for one stone/variant of Zygarde doesn't always check the other stone/variant of Zygarde. Altairianite and Lucarionite each have their own checks and can do different things, Altairianite deals with more offensive teams better meanwhile Lucarionite deals with breaking through the bulk better. You can try to guess and play according to said guesses, but you can't instantly know what Zygarde variant you will need to deal with from team preview. All of these reasons combined with the proven performance of both Lucarionite and Altairianite Zygarde I believe are sufficient reasons to keep Zygarde in S rank.
Chazm posted mons that he thought were solid answers to Zygarde, meaning that they could switch in and stop a boosted zyg. I made my post to show that a good chunk of the mons that he listed don't work nearly as well as zyg checks in practice. Fairyceus is still 2hkod by +1 Altairianite Zygarde and has a decent chance to be 2hkod by Lucarionite.Basically all of these calcs are assuming at zygarde had setup, and not the attacking mons. EG fairyceus. Fairyceus also runs lots of physical defense so can tank anything below +3 that zygarde throws at it. All buzzwole variants just stops zygarde in its tracks, entei can espeed it and ohko the generic altarianite variants. With the rise of manectites in MnM recently, intimidate can take down zygarde's +1 set ups. I don't see what the point was of you including the magearna calcs, because you just proved it to win. I think what Chazm meant by CM pokemon, was that they would usually have +1 by the time zygarde came in. Thank you Chazm and Stresh for pointing out what a bad poster I am, but I hope this is an improvement.
Gourgeist is mainly unranked because the roles it can offer are usually done better by other Pokemon. For example, Mew and Buzzwole are better Aggronite users because of the former's greater supportive movepool and the latter's huge physical bulk, where as Gourgeist can provide neither of those roles. It also suffers immense competition from Dhelmise, as that gets Rapid Spin, something which is great for counterleading mons like Shuckle.Can I ask why Gourgeist isn't ranked?
Slight problem... Magearna pulls it off far better than Klinklang could hope to do. The only notable niche is Gear Grind to hit Rock-types, but even then it can barely do anything when met with a proper Flying-resist like Zapdos, which Cobalion can hurt with Stone Edge, and Magearna can click Heal Bell on the switch, making it a massive annoyance long-term. There are posts about it on the main thread afaik, just look there and you may see messages about it.I would like to suggest klingklang for C+ or B- rank. When it switches in on something like Tapu Lele, it gets a free shift gear set up and can potentially beat 2 or 3 mons with its Pinsirite set. It can break Blissey easily, with its immunity to toxic, and after one shift gear, can kill fast offensive Pokemon like Terrakion and Zeraora. It can wall altarianite zygarde (although people have told me it’s not that good anymore. I can’t see why not.) and with +2 or +3 attack, potentially lucarionite zygarde as well. This is my 3rd post or so, so don’t judge me.
Also, thank you In The Hills, Chazm and Stresh for helping me to get into MnM.
Alright, I want to make a few replies to this:Ok so bee meaning to post some thoughts on the VR as its been quite a while that it hasn't been updated and there are some changes I would like sen to be made especially with OMPL currently going on:
Rises:
A+ -> S
Magearna should sincerely be considered for a rise to the coveted S-Rank at this point as both the potency of all its current viable sets (ie: all the Camel variants, Manectite pivot, defensive Sab or Venu pivot, Shift Gear Pinsirite, even Shift Gear + Calm Mind DD variants) and its overall impact on teambuilding makes it fit alongside the other current S-rank mons in Zyg and Pdon imo. Mag's splashability really cannot be stressed enough given how many roles it can perform while also being able to compress such given roles at the same time. Need a setup sweeper that can break through both stall and offense? Trick Room + Calm Mind Camel Mag is there. Need a defensive pivot that can switch into the most threatening Special attackers in the metagame such as Darkrai, Tapu Lele, and Lunala? Sablenite Magearna is there. Want an offensive pivot that can both switch into threats while forcing opposing threats out at the same time? Manectite Magearna has got your back. My point is, even if Magearna cannot obviously run all these sets at once, the fact that that most of them can be placed on the plethora of teams and consistently perform their respective roles (which is often more then one) attests to how much of an effect Mag has on the current metagame imo.
Here is a brief discussion that I had with a current council member Chazm on the matter:
https://pastebin.com/ijBQVQCh
Also some replays from OMPL demonstrating high quality play of Mag putting in a tone of work:
A- -> A+
Landorus-T has really shown itself to be quite the capable threat right now with its bulky Swords Dance + Stealth Rock Salamencite sets which can usually get up SR against most forms of entry hazard removal especially with the decline in usage of Zapdos. Its good bulk in tandem with its formidable power even when unboosted allows it to tear through most balance teams especially considering how remarkable its STAB coverage is. Coupled with the fact that it can run other useful options such as U-Turn and even a double Dance setup set which can break through offense enables Landorus-T to truly shine in the given metagame. Competition as an offensive Ground-type with Zygarde and Pdon isnt even that apparent considering how well it pairs with the aforementioned threats, forming devastating cores when paired with a Magearna of course.
A- -> A
Both Latiasite and Gyaradosite sets are really good at the given moment, acting as a great defensive pivot for balance teams that can check a slew of attackers such as most Primal Groudon, Buzzwole, certain Kartana sets with a Latiasite and Lunala, Tapu Lele, Ultra Necrozma, NP Mew with a Gyaradosite. Toxic Spikes are also pretty valuable in the current metgame when paired with big threats like Sub Coil Zygarde, Protect DD Zyg-C, and even other tech options such as Sub Terrak and Lunala, where Toxapex is pretty much the only viable user of the move (yes there is Greninja but that really team specific). The mindgames Toxapex can force as well when deciding when it chooses to mega evolve thanks to it also having access to Regen pre-mega also further makes it difficult to properly account for given how its mega stone options either give an immunity to one of its weaknesses or changes its typing entirely, altering what is actually able to break through it. Zygarde still puts a huge strain on it and prevents it from rising any further, but I feel it can fit comfortably alongside the other A-rank threats right now.
B -> B+
Red Orb NP Azelf is a terrific wallbreaker thanks to its great power and Speed in conjunction with how potent its STAB coverage alongside coverage options such as Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, and Shadow Ball makes it extremely hard to properly counter. It can usually force out many common defensive threats such as Magearna, non Gyaradosite-Toxapex, Arceus-Fairy, and Mew and proceed to use them as setup fodder, usually sweeping teams that do not have a means of offensively checking it which can be difficult given its great Speed tier. It does use up the teams Red Orb slot meaning it cant be paired with other wallbreakers such as Victini or Primal Groudon which is unfortunate, but I still feel Azelf fits itself on a number of teams to be worth considering a raise.
B- -> B / B+
I feel Darkrai has proven itself to be quite a capable sweeper in the given metagame with either its Blastoisnite and Diancite sets where the former lets it break through pretty much everything at +2 with Dark Pulse while the ladder enables it to check offense rather well due to its incredible Speed. The decline of Altarianite / Pinsirite Zyg usage in favor of Lucarionite also further helps Dakrai sweep many more games due to it not facing the main form to offensively check it. Coverage in Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb and Thunder also enables it to break through checks such as Magearna, Blissey, Arceus Fairy and Ho-Oh, while other utility options like Taunt and Substitute enables it to wallbreak certain walls even further. The presence of Magearna severly hinders it, but I still feel B- does not accurately represent Darkrai's given position especially considering how well its been performing in OMPL.
C -> B-
Lucarionite Mamoswine is quite the decent wallbreaker thanks to a great unresisted STAB combo that only gets stopped by Golissopod and Latiasite Toxapex. The ability to set up Stealth Rocks sort of reliably versus most Sablenite users means it can fit well on certain bulky offensive teans that need a means of breaking through common balance cores such as Bliss + Mag and Zap + Skarm + Bliss. Its below average Speed in tandem with a poor defensive typing + stats really limits it, but besides that I feel a small rise for Mamo is warranted at the current moment.
UR -> B-
I initially thought Zeraora would have been better but alas our little Electric friend hasn't really been performing as well as I thought it would. Even though it has a great speed tier which lets it offensively check even the fastest of threats such as Diancite Tapu Lele and Metagrossite Kartana, it still fails to properly break through most walls in the current metagame such as defensive Primal Groudon, Sablenite Magearna, and Gliscor, as they all require a significant amount of chip to be beaten by Zera. Sets such as Pinsirite and Glalitite perform well given their great STAB combo, while sets such as Lopunnite enable it get a better offensive typing and gives it a better STAB move to spam, however all of the aforementioned sets struggle to deal consistent damage given how bulky certain defensive threats can be, while Zeraoara's meager defenses means it can be checked by most priority users as well. I still need to test setup boosting sets with Bulk Up and see how that performs versus defensive teams but as for now I feel B- is a good place to start, although I can see a potential rise in the future.
UR -> C (Altarianite, Salamencite)
Surprised not to see this ranked yet, Noivern is a pretty simple threat that just spams -Ate Boomburst and break down most teams that dont have a Blissey or Magearna on them (hence why its being nommed low). Its good coverage lets it still break through certain walls and it can also be annoying with Taunt and U-Turn, but yeh its a pretty cool wallbreaker which is especially good thanks to its already good Speed tier pre-mega evolving.
UR -> C (Lopunnite)
Dugtrio has recently been popping up thanks to its ability to trap key threats such as Blissey, Magearna, non-Latiasite Toxapex, and Primal Groudon before it Mega Evolves and proceed to usually break through the aforementioned threats through the combination of Screech + Substitute + STAB Reversal upon mega evolution. Dugtrio is usually able to perform this role despite its paper thin defenses and low Attack due to its great Speed and good STAB coverage. When paired with threats such as OTR Magearna and CM Raikou, Dugtrio can provide the support that no other mon can by getting rid of the checks of its partners.
Drops:
A -> A-
Victini has always struggled to permit itself as a threat due to it usually taking up the teams Red Orb slot, meaning more consistent threats such as Primal Groudon are unable to be run. This wasn't that big of an issue a couple of months ago when mons such as Toxapex and Venusaurite Gliscor were less prevalent, but in todays metagame I find it just a bit more hard to justify using Victini in a teamslot since it can have trouble either wallbreaking without a boost or it being revenge killed by most offensive threats due to its low Speed and abundance of weaknesses.
A- -> B+ / B
Offensive Swords Dance sets struggle to threaten out offensive teams without a Rock Polish boost and defensive sets kinda get outclassed by bth Aggronite Mew or Sablenite Magearna depending on the pupose of Necro-DM for its team. It also struggles with a bit of competition with other Steel-type wallbreakers such as Cobalion and Metagross which can threaten out offense more immediately without needing to rely on a Z-Move to break through certain targets. It also struggles to setup SR vs most bouncers without an SD boost which further limits defensive sets compared to other setters such as Primal Groudon and even Terrakion.
B+ -> B
Zapdos is kind of a relic of the old metagame back when threats such as Pinsirite Magearna and Zygarde were running rampant. Nowadays, it struggles to check the majority of threats such as Lucarionite Zygarde, Terrakion, most offensive Magearna sets, and even stuff like Landorus-T if it is unable to fit HP Ice in its moveslot. It still acts as a good defensive pivot for certain teams and can provide annoyance to opposing walls via the combination of Toxic + its pivoting, but most of the time Zapdos struggles to truly perform its role especially considering its SR weakness coupled with its tendency of being worn down if it is not running a Sablenite via status.
B- -> C
Don't see much purpose of running RockCeus as a support Arceus forme due to it losing to most of the metas most common threats such as Zygarde, Magearna, Kartana, and Landorus-T just to name a few. It also faces heavy competition with other SupportCeus formes like Arceus Fairy and Arceus Ground, leaving little incentive to run it besides checking fringe threats such as Ho-Oh and Pinsirite Entei.
Ok I think I am done for now
I'd be happy to see explanations for what each EV spread does, unless they are all taken from the usage stats.check compendium
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 144 HP / 44 Atk / 164 SpD / 156 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Precipice Blades
- Smack Down
- Fire Punch/Rest/Rock Polish
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Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 8 HP / 16 Def / 244 SpA / 80 SpD / 156 Spe
Mild Nature
- Swords Dance
- Precipice Blades
- Overheat/Fire Blast/Eruption
- Stone Edge/Smack Down/HP Ice
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Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 196 SpD / 4 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Overheat
- Precipice Blades
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
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Magearna @ Cameruptite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature / Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk OR 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Flash Cannon / Shadow Ball / Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Focus Blast
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split / Trick Room
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Magearna @ Manectite / Alakazite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split
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Magearna @ Pinsirite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Shift Gear
- Pain Split
- Heal Bell / Substitute / Iron Defense / Light Screen
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Zygarde @ Lucarionite
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 188 HP / 200 Atk / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute / Pain Split / Glare
- Dragon Tail
- Dragon Dance / Coil
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Zygarde @ Altarianite / Pinsirite
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Atk / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Dance / Coil
- Frustration / Facade / Pain Split
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Terrakion @ Lucarionite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Taunt / Substitute
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Entei @ Altarianite / Pinsirite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Sacred Fire
- Stone Edge / Stomping Tantrum
- Frustration / Howl
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Mew @ Sablenite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock / Psychic / Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot / Calm Mind
- Roost
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Darkrai @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Bomb
- Taunt / Substitute / Thunder / Ice Beam
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Kartana @ Metagrossite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Frustration / Smart Strike
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Blissey @ Sablenite
Ability: Natural Cure / Healer
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD OR 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss / Psywave
- Softboiled / Wish
- Heal Bell / Toxic
- Protect / Heal Bell / Toxic / Stealth Rock / Confide / Charm
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Victini @ Red Orb
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- V-Create
- Bolt Strike
- Glaciate / Blue Flare / U-Turn
- Taunt / U- Turn / Blue Flare
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Landorus-Therian @ Salamencite / Altarianite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs 88 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe OR 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Frustration
- Swords Dance
- Smack Down / Rock Polish / Explosion
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Lunala @ Lunalium Z
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Substitute / Roost
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Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Solganium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Autotomize
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Golisopod @ Blue Orb
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet
- Leech Life / Pain Split / Spikes
- Swords Dance / Toxic / Spikes
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Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Recover
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Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs 248 HP / 208 Atk / 52 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
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Ho-Oh @ Choice Band
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Earthquake
- Toxic
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Tapu Lele @ Diancite
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind / Psyshock
- Focus Blast / Shadow Ball / HP Fire / Taunt
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Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Geomancy
- Thunder / Ingrain
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ground / Rest
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Manaphy @ Absolite
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Ice Beam / Grass Knot
- Shadow Ball / Ice Beam
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Azelf @ Red Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic / Taunt / Stealth Rock
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Raikou @ Red Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Weather Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind / Volt Switch
- Hidden Power Ice / Volt Switch / Toxic / Magnet Rise
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Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe OR 252 HP / 60 Atk / 196 Spe
Impish / Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Coil / Dragon Dance
- Substitute / Rest
- Dragon Tail / Protect
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Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 88 Def / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
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Kyogre @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
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Genesect @ Altarianite
Ability: Download
EVs 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shift Gear
- Blaze Kick
- Extreme Speed
- Return / Explosion
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Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Ascent
- V-Create
- Extreme Speed
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