OH NO!!! IT’S ALL COMING BACK!!! Xerneus OHKOing max SpDef Ho-Oh with Tera Electric Thunder after Geomacy!!! Nooo!!!! Keep it in AG!
(Honesty Mega Bannette is so obnoxious why does it exist? Let’s send it to AG next.)
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(Honesty Mega Bannette is so obnoxious why does it exist? Let’s send it to AG next.)
Let Lugia into OU and I’ll become a full time ND main and ladder for 2 hours everyday for a year.
honestly this should just be a quick-unban lugia would be perfect in ou
just curious why a discussion thread / pr thread whatever wasnt done before this? al and gimmicky articulated the numerous issues well and i have nothing much more to add, but i feel like something like this should have gone through some form of community discussion first lol
going thru straight with a test is really rushed and a bit of poor decision making
adem
going thru straight with a test is really rushed and a bit of poor decision making
adem
thebestever543
I COULD BE BANNED!
I'd like to preface that this is not an April Fools post, so please remove any preconcieved notion you formed when you opened the thread. This post is NOT funny.
Lugia, wh're has't thee been?
I'd like to adress the positives of susepecting Lugia before diving deeper. Unrelated to competitve but I do beleive that most people would like to see this Pokemon placed in a meta where it's genuinely viable. Lugia hasn't been viable in official metagames since ORAS Ubers and at best a niche pick for stall. In unofficial metagames, Lugia has been a stall staple in Mega Rayquaza metagames but again, only on stall. Lastly before diving deeper into the subject, I think we can all agree that Lugia will eventually be susepcted at some point in the future. It may not be this gen, but the power creep progression since generation 5 and nerfs to it's recvoery and indirectly it's typing, all indicate a suspect test in the future.
Poach'd eggs and tea wilt suffice. Once we stoodeth beside the sh're
There has never been a better time for a Lugia suspect. The meta game is fairly stable and Lugia is the weakest it's ever been. The two most oppressive Pokemon in the tier right now are unianimously SD Wellspring and ID Press Zamazenta. Both are checked by Lugia. I think if theres a chance for a healthier option to deal with both of these Pokemon in one slot, we should take it seriously. I'm not quite sure what set the community is stressed about, perhaps they feel that Lugia is just too bulky and is unreasonable for certain playstyles to build for. The biggest obstacle in Lugia's path to OU is Tera. Many will even go as far to say that without Tera, it would already have been suspected in this tier. So, is it as bad as people think? Well, maybe. Of course we can be certain about this hypothetical until actual testing but one thing is clear already. Lugia is extremely prone to forms of chip damage. Status, Hazards and Sandstorm. U-Turn is also much more common in OU than it is in Ubers, which means that preserving Multiscale is harder than ever before. Fortunately for Lugia, it still has Pressure. Which is a great ability in it's own right but it also means Lugia is much less tanky than the calcs show. Before moving onto the next part of the argument, I want to clarify the point made about Tera. Lugia will be extremely Tera reliant, which will serverly limit team options. The next thing I want to point out is Lugia's impact on team archetypes. Lugia very clearly excells verses Offense because of it's outstanding mixed bulk and great support move pool. Lugia is very difficult to OHKO and can blanket check almost any Pokemon in the game with Tera. Offense can run taunt on their setup sweepers to prevent Lugia from phasing out threast or deny toxic stalling with roost. However not all Pokemon can afford to run taunt which will likely have a negative impact on Offense regardless. Lugia seems to be an improved Vincune with Substitue, Protect, Calm Mind + Pressure on Bulky Offense teams. With the advatge of higher bulk, Spikes/Toxic Spikes immunity and higher base speed, on paper it looks like a very good win condition. Stall is in a healthy spot right now. There is a growing fear that by dropping an Uber that is synonymous with stall, it will make stall overpowered. I actually do believe stall will become really strong and possibly overpowered. Lugia, even with pressure is a blanket check to many of OUs strongest breakers and stall structures perfectly compliment Lugia and enable it to function it's designated role. However, Lugia is still Tera reliant and can make certain match ups awkward when multiple Pokemon nned their Tera. I find this issue situational on stall and not something competent players will have to fear. Lastly, I'll talk about Balance. Lugia's passivitiy will be easiest for Balance to exploit, however it is also extremely difficult for Balance to break this Pokemon. That's all I have to say for now, please inform me if I'm missing anything, I am glad we finally have the oppurtunit yto formally discuss this topic after it has lingered in the air all generation.
- thebestever543 aka MMxLegend
why Lugia? I'm open for the meyhem but as a guy eyeballing Uber stats for UUBER. Lugia is a proper Uber. and there's way more demons to consider w/ more shite usage (1630s was the sample size to shape UUBER). if more demons are gonna drop. maybe drop a few at a time that'd mesh well?
https://pokepast.es/e7ab745a7a24ed83 (<4.2-1%)
https://pokepast.es/5f4372e2a3002004(<1-.5%)
https://pokepast.es/407232377912fd32(.5->.0) + 2 more useless arc forms.
we're skipping 2 and a half boxes worth of guys to suspect? kinda crazy. I always thought that these kinda guys should be dropped in small handful, for little reason barring I guess more steel types wouldn't hurt. Under that thought process, I'd also release Reshiram if any of the tao trio and solgaleo just to cut through multiscale.
under the event that this is a serious post. might as well just make a terraless, maybe Zless ladder for grounds for a "round 1 suspect" if an Uber can actually fit in, in a more naked meta. then how do they fair when they're open to a full kit.
less gimmicks or not. the easiest guys to sus would prob be
skymin-we have the technology to blank flinch spam. jovert cloak. people think its a bad item. but is that cuz no lefties, boots? or cuz u can't see the advantage, cuz you'll never know if u were gonna get haxed. imma guy who uses it beyond garg.
mega Blastoise? shell Smash is an illegal set anyways if we wanna be biblically accurate. like mega chomp and scale shot (base chomp is in one of the boxes to represent sand veil, and cloyster represents kings rock, another strat blanked by cloak)
kangaskan? people alr be using lopunny, terra on Ferro, chomp would be more often used.
base Groudon would be the guy for the job if we're tryna terraform ou into uuber. for the same qualities that make primedon the marker for peak Uber. Groudon was the only weather guy when UUBER existed too.
https://pokepast.es/e7ab745a7a24ed83 (<4.2-1%)
https://pokepast.es/5f4372e2a3002004(<1-.5%)
https://pokepast.es/407232377912fd32(.5->.0) + 2 more useless arc forms.
we're skipping 2 and a half boxes worth of guys to suspect? kinda crazy. I always thought that these kinda guys should be dropped in small handful, for little reason barring I guess more steel types wouldn't hurt. Under that thought process, I'd also release Reshiram if any of the tao trio and solgaleo just to cut through multiscale.
under the event that this is a serious post. might as well just make a terraless, maybe Zless ladder for grounds for a "round 1 suspect" if an Uber can actually fit in, in a more naked meta. then how do they fair when they're open to a full kit.
less gimmicks or not. the easiest guys to sus would prob be
skymin-we have the technology to blank flinch spam. jovert cloak. people think its a bad item. but is that cuz no lefties, boots? or cuz u can't see the advantage, cuz you'll never know if u were gonna get haxed. imma guy who uses it beyond garg.
mega Blastoise? shell Smash is an illegal set anyways if we wanna be biblically accurate. like mega chomp and scale shot (base chomp is in one of the boxes to represent sand veil, and cloyster represents kings rock, another strat blanked by cloak)
kangaskan? people alr be using lopunny, terra on Ferro, chomp would be more often used.
base Groudon would be the guy for the job if we're tryna terraform ou into uuber. for the same qualities that make primedon the marker for peak Uber. Groudon was the only weather guy when UUBER existed too.
I don't think a Pokemon with 106, 130 and 154 bulk with Multiscale can be healthy for OU especially with that coverage, speed AND Tera. But it would be fun to try it out :)
Darn, just as i was gonna pull one of my own. Ok so, in order to not be given the Red Card, Let's talk about Lugia.
Imo, Lugia doesn't seem so oppressive for the meta, I mean obviously it isnt an offensive juggernaut like Zamazenta or Darkrai. What it does have is massive bulk, putting the likes of Toxapex to shame. However, its typing is far worse of defensively than Toxapex, it isnt bad, but imo its going to be competing with the likes of Skeledirge and Garganacl as a Tera Hog. Psychic/Flying matches up pretty poorly into a ton of meta mons, most notable among these are the Pursuitters, Mega Tyranitar and Weavile, which not only it fears Pursuit, it also fears their secondary STAB. Even outside of pursuitters its typing has problems, mons like Raging Bolt, Zapdos, Tapu Koko, Mega Diancie, Iron Boulder, Kyurem, Ceruledge, hell, even Fucking Mega Banette (looking at you about15guys) can all hit for supereffective STAB. It is also very vulnerable to status, mainly Toxic, so defensive teams have a way to beat it easily unless its pairs with a mon that absorb the status(aka Gliscor) or run either Tera Steel or Poison. So it might even feel like a liability from what im saying, do obciously we can't tell how big its impact would be until its here.
Now, what are it's potential sets?
I feel like it would be 2 sets, a defensive set, and a Calm Mind set. The defensive would focus on Lugia taking a big blow from a sweeper and phazing it our with Roar. It can also throw out Future Sights quite effectively, and if you seen Galar Slowking or Tapu Lele, you should know how dangerous that move can be. Recover or Roost for a recovery options, with Roost even removing its Flying weakness for a turn. The other set would be the Calm Minder, which i feel like it would be the more popular of the two sets. Aeroblast is seems like a good choice, 100 base power with a high crit ratio, do with 95% acc. Air Slash is also on the table, 25 less base power, similar accuracy, but with a 30% flich rate. Earth Power seems like a good covergae options, mainly against Rock and Electric types. Psychic Noise would be a good way to interrupt more defensive teams, and Substitute would let it play around status.
So, where would Lugia fit in?
I think that most likely on balanced teams that are looking for a raw hittaker. Its bulk is obviously pretty good, and it could take a hit incoming hit from a potential sweeper like Gouging Fire or Iron Crown for example, adding the fact it has Multiscale as one of its abilities, and it can very likely shrug of big hits, making the defensive set a potential candidate for these teams, even do it would have competition with the all mighty Galar Slowking. One potential partner for Lugia would be Zamazenta (who wouldve taught, two box art legendaries pairing well together, oh boy) Zamazenta would help Lugia greatly with Lugia's Pursuit weakness, and Lugia could handle Phychic types like Tapu Lele for it. Another Solid team option would be Gliscor, not only is Gliscor a good status absorber, its also a good Knock off absorber, allowing to protect Lugia's Lefties or Boots quite nicely. Clefable is another mon for this role, with Magic Guard completly blanking passive damage. Garganacl could be used as well, not only for its full on immunity to status, but also for its Ghost resistance due to its Purifying Salt ability, and Lugia could also return it the favor by having a Ground immunity. altough they would both be competing for the Tera slot. Stall teams could use it, but they prefer having mons not just with good bulk, but also mons with typings that matchup well vs the rest of the metagame. And again, Lugia's typing is middling, even do it matches up quitr greatly into Tapu Lele, which stall teams can often struggle with, Corviknight does a similar function already, with Pressure and everything to boot, altough Lugia has more bulk. So in a way, Lugia would play a mix of Corvinkight with Toxapex, where it uses it huge bulk to withstand something and then phaze it.(sadly it doesn't learn Haze)
So overall, I think Lugia would fit in just fine. Its has some good pros but also some bad cons. Its typing seems to be letting it down more times than not, and its seems like it would need Tera to accomplish much. It does have solid bulk, of which even with the bad typing, it can survive big hits. Much like Mega Tyranitar, it has such a high bulk, that even supereffective hits dont seem to do much to it. I would be in favor of a suspect test, and if it ends up being too much, then simply leave it banned, just like how we did with Roaring Moon a while back, simple.
Imo, Lugia doesn't seem so oppressive for the meta, I mean obviously it isnt an offensive juggernaut like Zamazenta or Darkrai. What it does have is massive bulk, putting the likes of Toxapex to shame. However, its typing is far worse of defensively than Toxapex, it isnt bad, but imo its going to be competing with the likes of Skeledirge and Garganacl as a Tera Hog. Psychic/Flying matches up pretty poorly into a ton of meta mons, most notable among these are the Pursuitters, Mega Tyranitar and Weavile, which not only it fears Pursuit, it also fears their secondary STAB. Even outside of pursuitters its typing has problems, mons like Raging Bolt, Zapdos, Tapu Koko, Mega Diancie, Iron Boulder, Kyurem, Ceruledge, hell, even Fucking Mega Banette (looking at you about15guys) can all hit for supereffective STAB. It is also very vulnerable to status, mainly Toxic, so defensive teams have a way to beat it easily unless its pairs with a mon that absorb the status(aka Gliscor) or run either Tera Steel or Poison. So it might even feel like a liability from what im saying, do obciously we can't tell how big its impact would be until its here.
Now, what are it's potential sets?
I feel like it would be 2 sets, a defensive set, and a Calm Mind set. The defensive would focus on Lugia taking a big blow from a sweeper and phazing it our with Roar. It can also throw out Future Sights quite effectively, and if you seen Galar Slowking or Tapu Lele, you should know how dangerous that move can be. Recover or Roost for a recovery options, with Roost even removing its Flying weakness for a turn. The other set would be the Calm Minder, which i feel like it would be the more popular of the two sets. Aeroblast is seems like a good choice, 100 base power with a high crit ratio, do with 95% acc. Air Slash is also on the table, 25 less base power, similar accuracy, but with a 30% flich rate. Earth Power seems like a good covergae options, mainly against Rock and Electric types. Psychic Noise would be a good way to interrupt more defensive teams, and Substitute would let it play around status.
So, where would Lugia fit in?
I think that most likely on balanced teams that are looking for a raw hittaker. Its bulk is obviously pretty good, and it could take a hit incoming hit from a potential sweeper like Gouging Fire or Iron Crown for example, adding the fact it has Multiscale as one of its abilities, and it can very likely shrug of big hits, making the defensive set a potential candidate for these teams, even do it would have competition with the all mighty Galar Slowking. One potential partner for Lugia would be Zamazenta (who wouldve taught, two box art legendaries pairing well together, oh boy) Zamazenta would help Lugia greatly with Lugia's Pursuit weakness, and Lugia could handle Phychic types like Tapu Lele for it. Another Solid team option would be Gliscor, not only is Gliscor a good status absorber, its also a good Knock off absorber, allowing to protect Lugia's Lefties or Boots quite nicely. Clefable is another mon for this role, with Magic Guard completly blanking passive damage. Garganacl could be used as well, not only for its full on immunity to status, but also for its Ghost resistance due to its Purifying Salt ability, and Lugia could also return it the favor by having a Ground immunity. altough they would both be competing for the Tera slot. Stall teams could use it, but they prefer having mons not just with good bulk, but also mons with typings that matchup well vs the rest of the metagame. And again, Lugia's typing is middling, even do it matches up quitr greatly into Tapu Lele, which stall teams can often struggle with, Corviknight does a similar function already, with Pressure and everything to boot, altough Lugia has more bulk. So in a way, Lugia would play a mix of Corvinkight with Toxapex, where it uses it huge bulk to withstand something and then phaze it.(sadly it doesn't learn Haze)
So overall, I think Lugia would fit in just fine. Its has some good pros but also some bad cons. Its typing seems to be letting it down more times than not, and its seems like it would need Tera to accomplish much. It does have solid bulk, of which even with the bad typing, it can survive big hits. Much like Mega Tyranitar, it has such a high bulk, that even supereffective hits dont seem to do much to it. I would be in favor of a suspect test, and if it ends up being too much, then simply leave it banned, just like how we did with Roaring Moon a while back, simple.
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I don't play this metagame, but I did play SS National Dex so I think it would be a good idea to unban Lugia in both SV and SS. Lugia has no access to tera in SS because Professor Oak didn't realise Spain existed in-verse so we were stuck in England, which is where I live. The consequence of that is Lugia is stuck with its poor Psychic/Flying typing, there are a lot of Dark types in SS like Mega TTar, Weavile and Greninja and many more I could name but I'd reach Mightyena at that rate. Pursuit is also a move of all time and Lugia HATES Pursuit. You might worry about setup sets but you have to realise this: Swoobat is faster than Lugia (114 vs 110) and also has the ability Simple and access to Stored Power. Sigilyph also has a higher spatk than Lugia and can run LO Magic Guard to eclipse Lugia's damage output. Taking this into account, Lugia is a fine addition in SS ND.
Taking it back to SV though, pretty much any post so far in this thread advocating for Lugia's unban is factually correct and I can agree wholeheartedly that this format would be better with its inclusion. I would also start playing SV ND, shifting from ND Monotype because I would be able to use my favourite legendary pokemon of all time.
#FreeLugia
Taking it back to SV though, pretty much any post so far in this thread advocating for Lugia's unban is factually correct and I can agree wholeheartedly that this format would be better with its inclusion. I would also start playing SV ND, shifting from ND Monotype because I would be able to use my favourite legendary pokemon of all time.
#FreeLugia
So we might be testing this guy huh?
Would have thought it would have been tested in SV first since it has no toxic, T wave, or psycho boost in SV. Then again everything else has toxic here.
Would have thought it would have been tested in SV first since it has no toxic, T wave, or psycho boost in SV. Then again everything else has toxic here.
Advocating for gen*cide on Smogon dot com? This highly forbidden outside of the Politics thread, please ban this guy asap mods!
Now onto the subject at hand: I consider the lack of seriousness towards the tiering process, that most of the posters displayed in this thread, a grave insult towards the Community as a whole.
I wholeheartedly thank the Council, which is usually just a puppet of those elitist tournament players, for breaking thier chains and considering this long-standing propsal of the real playerbase!
The metagame has recently come under the yoke of Pokemon like Darkrai, Zamazenta and Ogerpon-W.
Lugia will be the solution to all of these, yes it even walls Darkrai: 252 SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Multiscale Lugia: 108-127 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO!
#FreeLugia
Have fun when getting trick locked into scarf hehe
this lugia guy is kinda ass tbh
252+ Atk Banette-Mega Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 189-223 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 229-270 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 326-386 (78.3 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 950-1118 (228.3 - 268.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
also it gets like, completely walled by Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie, pls unban it just loses to Darkrai lol....
252+ Atk Banette-Mega Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 189-223 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 229-270 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 326-386 (78.3 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +6 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 950-1118 (228.3 - 268.7%) -- guaranteed OHKOalso it gets like, completely walled by Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie, pls unban it just loses to Darkrai lol....
1yr
formerly I❤BerryKind
ün ün ün ün ün ün ün ün ün AAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOORRRRXT 01001000 0110101 01101000 01100101 0010000 01001001this lugia guy is kinda ass tbh
also it gets like, completely walled by Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie, pls unban it just loses to Darkrai lol....
i will say bad things about u buddy.... bad things....
252+ Atk Regirock Regirock Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 484-570 (116.3 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO
keep this mf locked up
offensive sets, which will be less common but still potent enough to keep in mind, can run calm mind sets with psychic z via psycho boost. this gives it a 200 bp nuke option. without stab.
defensive sets have a lot of utility moves, such as roost, recover, defog, both screen moves, toxic, etc, and a good ability in multiscale. this makes it quite annoying to deal with, but what makes me not want this thing in ou is it's bulk. 106/130/154 bulk is unheard of for this tier, giving it more bulk than any pokemon in the tier. using the .bulk command in the national dex ou chat room on pokemon showdown!, lugia's bulk is 163,904 in physical, and 185,952 in special. that is more bulky than ferrothorn, toxapex, mega scizor, clodsire, alomomola, slowking galar, gliscor, and much more.
if this mf gets freed i'll lose my mind.
offensive sets, which will be less common but still potent enough to keep in mind, can run calm mind sets with psychic z via psycho boost. this gives it a 200 bp nuke option. without stab.
defensive sets have a lot of utility moves, such as roost, recover, defog, both screen moves, toxic, etc, and a good ability in multiscale. this makes it quite annoying to deal with, but what makes me not want this thing in ou is it's bulk. 106/130/154 bulk is unheard of for this tier, giving it more bulk than any pokemon in the tier. using the .bulk command in the national dex ou chat room on pokemon showdown!, lugia's bulk is 163,904 in physical, and 185,952 in special. that is more bulky than ferrothorn, toxapex, mega scizor, clodsire, alomomola, slowking galar, gliscor, and much more.
if this mf gets freed i'll lose my mind.
everything that isn't a priority abuser loses to this thing, what kind of argument is thisIt is clear thatloses to
, which competely justifies itself to be OU
Assuming this is not a April fool's joke and it's legit, I'm conflicted. I'm full in to Unban it in OU because Lugia lost many of it's tools and the meta is pretty hostile to it, but in NatDex it still keeps many of it's tools like Defog, Toxic and T-Wave, then again the meta I say it's even more offensive than OU thanks to Z-moves and many stuff which it's passive ass hatrs like Pursuit and the army of toxic/t-wave we have here...... Conflicted, will wait till tommorow and assuming it's no prank/joke will give a definitive opinion.
I think having a very bulky mon being added to the tier is a good thing, as offense is rather oppressive with behemoths like Darkrai, Zamazenta, Iron Valiant, Raging Bolt, Ogerpon Wellspring to name a few. It also matches up pretty poorly anyway vs a ton of these, meaning that Lugia also seems like Tera Hog, basically a mon that needs tera more times than not to be of good use.
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