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Qwilfish and Exeggutor are the best users of Swift Swim and Chlorophyll in Ubers respectively. The amount of damage that Qwilfish does is impressive, allowing it to revenge Latias, Latios, Mewtwo, and even stuff like Kyogre if it isn't running a ton of Defense. Getting choice-locked into a Poison / Ghost move can suck, but you are mainly there to clean late game when these things have been removed or force CM users out. I don't like Exeggutor quite as much, but it does have a very powerful Solarbeam and Explosion that can be threatening, especially late in a match. I don't think mm2 got the best impression of Exeggutor when it failed to check his sub-salac SD Groudon in a friendlies match, but to be fair that was partially my fault for testing a slower spread on Exeggutor and not making a safer play with Snorlax.
I think the swift swimmers overall are more viable than the chloro guys. Rain is a more common weather so it's easier to abuse their speed boost and they get a boost to their STAB attacks as opposed to having to rely on shit like Solarbeam to deal damage. The Rain guys all get useful utility moves like Spikes and Rapid Spin as well as have typings that can actually check things. Meanwhile, pretty much all the chloro guys only have a fast sleep move going for them and the threat of a boom. They are also fragile and can only really check gdon with their typing (and they lose to his coverage moves, lol).
I'm curious to hear what Jumpluff gets if BKC is recommending him.
(btw, I'm going to add just about every mon mentioned here into the OP as long as it gets some sort of discussion)
I've been testing a few more Snorlax sets and CurseLax is quite dangerous. I haven't come up with a cool spread yet but, in addition to Snorlax's usual ability to check important Pokemon, it becomes really hard to take down something so naturally meaty when it's got some defense boosts under its belt. It feels like it would be a major threat in the metagame seeing how hard it can be to kill it off quickly while it can force some unwanted trades and can easily be justified in teambuilder.
Been fiddling with Zapdos cause it's my favorite gen 1 bird as well. It's been... okay. Not really gotten the chance to see much out of it yet cause its on the same team as Curselax, lol. I'm trying SubToxic with Thunder and HP Ice. With very minor hp investment, Blissey can't pop Zappy's Subs so it makes it pretty effective at spamming those 125 STAB Thunders. Checking Metagross, Gdon, and the GSC Birds is pretty cool.
bkc on jumpluff:
jumpluff is the fastest pkmn in the game and an offensive team facing sub leech ENCORE is a fucking nightmare especially when it can throw out sleep. encore a cm or recover or eq or christ knows what else and fuck everyone's shit backwards
Another thing about Qwilfish: You can run a Spiker set as well. It's a lot weaker than CB, but Spikes has great utility, and you still have S-ball, SLudge Bomb and Explosion to throw around.
Sandslash @ BrightPowder
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge/Rapid Spin
- Rock Slide
Sandslash @ BrightPowder
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Rock Slide
We all know that Tyranitar is the best Gen 3 Ou Pokemon according to the Old Gens room. Tyranitar's bulky defense and strong offense is what made it the best ou gen 3 mon. Tyranitar gets the Sand Stream ability which Sandslash gets great benefit from. As You would send out Tyranitar first, switching in to Sandslash and using Swords Dance hoping your opponent's moves would miss (especially with brightpowder), you would also try to sweep. This was fairy common in Gen 3 Ou and great.
The problem I have with DD ttar and SD Sandslash in Ubers is that they are just too weak compared to the other tools available (monsters such as SD Groudon). The only role I've ever considered Sandslash for was for Rapid Spin, but after all these years I still haven't been able to properly justify it on a team. I talked about ttar in a previous post but in Ubers it's mostly limited to a support role.
i tried dd-tar and it led to groudon coming in and setting up salac + SD to sweep my team. dd tar would be cool af, but its bait for 2 of the strongest mons in the tier, kyogre and groudon.
Aerodactyl is a pretty fun mon. It gets walled hard by Groudon, but apart from that, there isn't much it can't hurt with a CB set. Its Speed is obviously its main asset, allowing it outspeed Lati@s with an Adamant nature, which is pretty cool. Rock Slide / EQ / HP Ghost / Double Edge is a nice spammable set.
Metal Sound seems a p clutch move for certain guys. Namely, Magneton and Zapdos as they can use their immunity to Toxic (via steel/substitute) to muscle past Blissey as well as beat out Lati@s switch-ins that were paralyzed from eating Thunders and the like.
Seaking @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 64 SpA / 192 Spe
Nature: Naughty
- Megahorn
- Hidden Power Ground
- Hydro Pump
- Toxic
Megahorn is quite a rare move in ADV, but it is fucking awesome as it shreks Lati@s and all the other Psychics. Hidden Power Ground lets you smack Steels that switch-in, while Hydro lets you dent Skarm. Toxic is filler, really, and lets you catch Groudon switch-ins.
He's a god-like Pokemon because he has such a phenomenal defensive typing for this metagame. Sadly, he doesn't have the SpDef to fully abuse it but it's not TOO fragile and it still eats up CB Sballs, Body Slams, Booms, etc like a fucking boss. I've had the most success using a CB set as it's not really a guy that wants to stay in for very long and it helps compensate for his otherwise average attack stat. It's a really easy Pokemon to justify and I suggest you guys give it a shot sometime.
Shockingly, I like Omastar in this metagame. You can come in on predicted Explosions, Ho-Oh at least once (watch out for Thunder or Earthquake once Omastar is revealed), Forretress, and if you predict correctly, Mewtwo. It easily punishes switches by setting up Spikes, and Forretress is absolutely savaged by Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps and cannot do anything about it. Omastar can also ironically beat Rayquaza 1-1, unless Rayquaza is Choice Band. I like Mystic Water over Leftovers, even though it only gives Omastar a 10% power boost; simply put, I like doing as much possible damage to Kyogre and Groudon switches as possible to help teammates break by them. Omastar also has a positive match-up vs. almost every single OU Pokemon viable in ADV Ubers, like Snorlax, Gengar, and Steelix.
You need Blizzard to nail Latios and Latias on the switch, and the consistency of Ice Beam to finish off weakened Lati's and OHKO Rayquaza. FOr this reason, I don't see the need for Toxic. Omastar damages most of its checks enough with Hydro Pump to wear them down for teammates, and you have Spikes to make Blissey and other Natural Cure mons pay for coming in. Qwilfish is at least as good as Omastar overall due to its access to Explosion, but cannot hit nearly as hard and doesn't get Rain-boosted STAB unless you want to abuse its 55 Special Attack. The other Swift Swimmers don't get hazards to punish switches to walls they could never hope to break (phys def Kyogre and Groudon in Kabutops case, Blissey and Kyogre for Kingdra).
Relevant calcs:
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. Forretress in Rain: 319-376 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO - assuming 252 / 252+ Careful
Omastar Ice Beam vs. Rayquaza: 459-540 (122.4 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. Mewtwo in Rain: 355-418 (100.2 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. Jirachi in Rain: 324-382 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Omastar Blizzard vs. Soul Dew Latias: 141-166 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - max HP
Omastar Blizzard vs. Soul Dew Latios: 163-192 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Omastar Ice Beam vs. Soul Dew Latios: 130-154 (43 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. Kyogre in Rain: 121-143 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mystic Water Omastar Hydro Pump vs. Ho-Oh in Rain: 448-528 (126.5 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Unlike most of the future generations where it's seen as a mediocre to bad gimmick, Sheddy is actually quite viable in ADV Ubers, mostly since TTar is rare and the only hazard to worry about is Spikes which has limited distribution. It stonewalls all Kyogre sets, and it also manhandles Lati@s if they leave home without Hidden Power Fire, Mewtwo without Fire Blast or Shadow Ball, and anything that relies exclusively on BoltBeam coverage. It is not uncommon for Shedinja to wall half a team or more, and it is a very viable win condition if you get rid of your opponent's counters to it. SD is probably the only set you want to run since SD HP Fight is the only way you have to touch Steel-types and you need it to actually beat bulky Kyogre sets. Protect lets you scout for anti Shedinja moves and STAB SBall/HPFight gives unresisted coverage. Max Attack and Speed since those are the only stats that matter on Shedinja lol.
Lum Berry lets you absorb one Toxic if you need to stay in on a Lugia or Blissey to kill it, though Focus Band can occasionally let you survive a fatal hit if you feel like pushing your luck.
The main issue with running Shedinja is that it requires a lot of support and must be played cautiously until you know your opponent's team - it mandates Rapid Spin to keep Spikes away so Forretress is a required teammate, and you have to be very careful about scouting for Pursuit users such as Metagross. Magneton is a helpful partner as it can trap the most common Spikers (Forry and Skarm) and revenge kill Metagross if it managed to Pursuit Sheddy. The worst thing for a Sheddy team to fight is probably Tyranitar as it can kill Shed just by switching in, so be very careful. Always run either Groudon or Kyogre with Sheddy, they clear sand and they can come into most Pursuit users on predicted doubles and apply a lot of offensive pressure.
You use Swampert because you want a ground-type. (which pretty much every team will want because of the imense threat that is CM Jirachi)
You use Swampert over the other ground-types because he is not weak to Ice Beam nor does he have shit spdef making him a solid check to boltbeamers. He also doesn't summon Sun to interrupt Rain (which some teams do not want) and he resists Fire Blast instead of making it stronger.
CB and Curse are just two different sets that you choose between once you have already decided to use Swampert. Which one is better depends on the team's overall structure and needs. The original Lefties set I posted about is still okay but I think that it's probably outclassed by these two other sets. Not sure, again it depends on the team.
You use Swampert because you want a ground-type. (which pretty much every team will want because of the imense threat that is CM Jirachi)
You use Swampert over the other ground-types because he is not weak to Ice Beam nor does he have shit spdef making him a solid check to boltbeamers. He also doesn't summon Sun to interrupt Rain (which some teams do not want) and he resists Fire Blast instead of making it stronger.
CB and Curse are just two different sets that you choose between once you have already decided to use Swampert. Which one is better depends on the team's overall structure and needs. The original Lefties set I posted about is still okay but I think that it's probably outclassed by these two other sets. Not sure, again it depends on the team.
Swampert does not check BoltBeamers as well as you think it does. In fact, Snorlax takes less from Latios Thunder than does Swampert from Latios Ice Beam (using Modest Latios and 252 SDef Lax and Pert):
Swampert has a very high chance to be 2HKOed by Ice Beam after 1 layer of Spikes whereas Lax is never 2HKOed by Thunder after 2 layers of Spikes. This is pretty telling as to the disparity in their special bulk. Lax obviously isn't a Ground-type but that only rly matters against Metagross (Snorlax soundly beats CM Jirachi if it has Earthquake) + Lax synergizes well with dudes like Groudon and Skarmory who eat Metagross alive so that isn't a hugely relevant point imo. If terms of what they try to do defensively (come in on BoltBeamers and hit back hard), Snorlax just seems way better than Swampert.
I guess you could use it if it you really don't want sun if using Swift Swimmers or bad electric mons like Zapdos, but it's still very hard to justify using over Groudon who has much higher Attack, Defense, and Speed. Heck, I'd sooner use Steelix over Pert due to Normal/Flying/Ghost resists and Explosion (still checks CM Rachi too, it takes +1 Ice Punch with ease).
CursePert just seems like a worse version of Snorlax due to less spammable stab (Body Slam is a lot more spammable than EQ despite Gar's existence + para chance) and greatly inferior special bulk.
You are comparing apples and oranges. Snorlax isn't a ground-type, who cares if he takes Thunders better than Pert takes Ice Beams.
You don't even need to be abusing Swift Swim or Electric-types to not want Sun. Just running Thunder on your Latios is reason enough to want to exclude Groudon.
As a Ground-type, Swampert still handles BoltBeamers much better than Gdon. If your team doesn't need that and you want the advantages Gdon (or Steelix) has, then so be it, use them.
Kabutops might be decent since it hits hard with SD Rock Slides and Spins but it can't do much to Groudon or non-Forry Steel-types (unless you run HP Ground) which is meh.
Just want to say after some extensive testing I'm quite the fan of Kabutops as far as Swift Swimmers goes and personally consider it superior to Qwilfish. It may not have Boom, Spikes, and Shadow Ball but what it does get is a usable typing and a way to weaken his own checks. (as well as Spin since that's rare) CB Double Edge 3HKOs Gdon which is quite impressive considering how much a pest he could be for Kabutops. HP Ground actually isn't as bad as you make it out to be as it does a shit ton to every Steel-type switch in that resists Rock Slide, enough to 2HKO the really bulky ones like Registeel and Metagross. (Steelix is too much a god, though, to be 2HKO'd by that sort of thing) Being able to weaken his own checks becomes even more useful when you take into account the fact that his Rocky-typing and decent physical defense allows him to come in on Normal-type and Flying-type moves. (fuck Body Slam para though)
I've been playing a bit more with rock-types and want to share my findings cause they have some niche uses.
I think Aggron's primary niche is making Blissey teams shit themselves. It hits everything so hard when you give it CB and barely ever have to predict. The special defense is LOL but at least you come in free on CB Body Slams, Shadow Balls, etc. It dies to Earthquake but most steels are fucked by CB EQ so I don't really consider that much a problem.
Regirock I've only been able to justify on Sun Stall but it fits that style so well I think it is worth mentioning. It gives you a nice Ho-Oh check as well as a pseudo-Steel with the typing and 80/200 defences that can punch holes with a CB thanks to a solid 100 attack stat and access to moves like Superpower and Explosion to go with his STAB Rock Slide.
Aerodactyl has been an interesting mon. It may seem like an inferior Kabutops, and in terms of pure cleaning it very much is. However, it has certain niches that can buy its way onto teams. Not being reliant on rain to clean is the obvious one, and it is non-negligible. It can also use Pursuit (which it has the room for since you don't need more than Rock Slide, Double Edge, and Earthquake) to wipe out Shedinja and CB Deoxys-A (although to a much lesser extent) for teams that absolutely need that. Lastly, it can actually be a decent ultra-emergency check to Groudon that lack Rock Slide since unboosted HP Ghost won't 2HKO allowing you to get off two Double Edges. Those Double Edges won't actually KO Gdon unless you have Spikes support but it's **something**. The most valuable bit about that in terms of Gdon exchanges is that Rock Slide-less Gdon isn't actually a safe switch-in since Double Edge deals so much and it can't KO Aerodactyl fast enough to survive them, lol. Rock Head is such a clutch ability in those situations. (just pray they aren't running something like Twave tho) Overall, not an amazing Pokemon but it can do things when you stick it on a team that actually benefits from its niches.
Tyranitar I've not tested much but I'd really like to see a more special oriented approach to it. The high attack stat makes it easy to overlook the fact that TTar also has a solid 95 special stat on top of STAB Crunch to beat the resident Lati twins. Just tack on Fire Blast for Steels/Gdon, Thunder to hit Kyogre, and Rock Slide to check Ho-Oh and punish Blisseys and I'd imagine you'd have a fairly dangerous team player since TTar's weather and typing is still pretty clutch. (you can obviously stick Pursuit on somewhere if you really think you need it for Deo-A and Mewtwo or something)
I don't really play this meta, but any reason why Heracross isn't mentioned yet? Being possibly the only viable fighting and Bug type, it seems to be a strong option against the common psychics, Snorlax, Blissey, and some other rock and steel type. Choice Band set is super powerful. If you get lucky and absorbed a status, even Groudon and defensive Lugia won't enjoy taking your hit. If you don't like locking in a move, a sword dance set is also pretty nice.
I think salac is the best set for heracross, it's kinda too fragile and slow to check all the stuff you mention but it is cool. (mainly the psychics) salac lets it bypass this temporarily to pull off a lategame sweep which is neat
I don't really play this meta, but any reason why Heracross isn't mentioned yet? Being possibly the only viable fighting and Bug type, it seems to be a strong option against the common psychics, Snorlax, Blissey, and some other rock and steel type. Choice Band set is super powerful. If you get lucky and absorbed a status, even Groudon and defensive Lugia won't enjoy taking your hit. If you don't like locking in a move, a sword dance set is also pretty nice.
All psychics manhandle it with their stabs and the one that doesn't carry psychic (latis) win with a cm boost so Hera can't really handle them.
It beats snorlax and blissey sure but it's not like either of them will stay in on Hera though hera is a pretty solid blisey answer.
There aren't any viable rocks bar maybe aero which has hp flying.
Lugia outspeed base 90's and by extension Hera and ohko's with aeroblast.
Steels (meta/rachi) tend to beat it quite handily so eh.
Overall hera has exceedingly poor matchups against just about everything bar normals which makes it a pretty poor option. Not to mention its speed tier is ass (slower than just about everything) with a poor typing
psychics don't run psychic (it hits nothing)
rocks include ttar (and I guess regirock) + i don't think aero should be using hp flying since it hits nothing (don't think hera wins but who cares since aero is rare as fuck)
the speed tier isn't actually bad cause nothing around there runs much speed.
i don't disagree with everything you said but I think you are being a tad overly harsh. It definitely dicks with stall teams cause guts and hard to switch in on (although cm blissey is a diff story) and offensive teams *can* find themselves in a tough spot vs the salac set.
It's probably a mon that works on like one build and one build only but it'll do alright on that build.
psychics don't run psychic (it hits nothing)
rocks include ttar (and I guess regirock) + i don't think aero should be using hp flying since it hits nothing (don't think hera wins but who cares since aero is rare as fuck)
the speed tier isn't actually bad cause nothing around there runs much speed.
i don't disagree with everything you said but I think you are being a tad overly harsh. It definitely dicks with stall teams cause guts and hard to switch in on (although cm blissey is a diff story) and offensive teams *can* find themselves in a tough spot vs the salac set.
It's probably a mon that works on like one build and one build only but it'll do alright on that build.
Does mewtwo not run psychic or something? News to me, though deo-a manhandles it with psycho boost (or is that not run on cb or something)
You yourself stated that tytar is uncommon and regirock is seen even less so I can't really count the later though if your opp brings tytar then I guess Hera does well. But again it's due to rocks general rarity which makes it hard for it to be considered a useful niche (not to mention most rocks are better dealt with ysing groudon)
The only archetype I can see it doing overly well against is stall due to status being prevalent and a guts Hera manhandling stall. But against other archetypes it's speed/typing simply isn't good enough to make it usable on most/all teams. if anything you were being overly generous with it's the whole subsalac set.
