hi, im gonna make this post to address some of the more recent arguments on either side of the spectrum, as well as why I personally think Manaphy should
stay, for now, or
KoKoLoko-style tiering action to take place (quick banning multiple elements / mons and then further along the line suspect test them 1 by 1, in a similar fashion to what
NatDex did earlier last year.) instead of just a singular ban.
No one can deny Manaphy is a really solid breaker with a lot of great defensive capabilities in tandem with its top-tier breaking abilities, although personally I dont think banning Manaphy
by itself is really going to change much in the grand scheme of things, at the very least without removal of the multiple polarizing elements at the same time. No, removing just Manaphy isn't suddenly going to make Balance and BO the most dominant playstyle, or even change much. Same reason removing just Latios isn't going to change much. I would say BO currently is only really underrepresented in the samples and in general, although I think it is the best, if not second best playstyle currently. I would attribute this (less representation of good BOs) partially due to a more constrained view by a lot of people on building in this tier rather than just 1 singular Pokemon invalidating an entire playstyle, and personally I feel that's a very close minded view on the tier as of right now, and depending on how you would classify BO (as honestly Pokemon archetype terms arent really a set in stone thing lol), it isn't really that hard to build and perform really well provided you aren't overestimating our breakers, although a majority of them will have Gliscor and Scizor, over time with more proper experimentation with the team style much more creative options can be explored, such as the likes of Tyranitar, Donphan, and Empoleon.
TLDR if the reason you want to ban Manaphy is because of how it and multiple other Pokemon create a very polarized metagame, banning just 1 of the culprits, instead of multiple of them at the same time, isnt the way to solve it as its clear to everyone that solely Manaphy isnt the sole culprit and removing it wont really change much of anything in how the tier currently is, as much as you would like to believe it would.
Honestly, I really like how the metagame is currently, Offense is at its peak, BO is rising up to be more promiment (although as I mentioned it needs more experimentation), Stall, while still definitely a top 3 playstyle I feel is a bit overrated in how effective it is currently, and I feel is slowly leaning more into the matchup-fishy state it is in all healthy tiers that it exists in, and that the tier in its current state is kind to all playstyles except balance, and as i mentioned earlier will be still terrible unless you remove like 5 other Pokemon. However, I do agree that the tier isn't in a completely healthy state, and while I do think it is very competitive and fun and definitely not bad, I can still see a side where banning these Pokemon is the right way to go about things, although I heavily disagree in the execution in the tiering decisions about this. Suspecting each one of them one by one is frankly just a waste of time and banning one wont affect the health of the tier without removing all of them, and is just keeping the meta in this "unhealthy" state for longer.
TLDR Stop suspect testing things 1 by 1 and wasting time, just do a Kokoloko Ban if you really think this tier is in that much of a bad state.
About the mon itself now, disregarding the actual health of the tier, I really do think it is extremely overrated and not as "broken" as people think it is, and definitely not as constraining build-wise as stuff like Latios. Contrary to what people might think, no, banning Manaphy wont mean that CM Blissey would stop being used (no, CM Latios and Gengar still exist) And using the argument that stall struggles vs Manaphy is honestly just invalid, considering Manaphy has historically denied Stall, and to an extent Fat completely, and makes them much more MU-fishy than they need be, but on the contrary, Stall this generation is actually doing really well, and there have been quite a lot of innovations and they definitely aren't linear.
Furthermore, expanding on the Blissey point a lot of Pokemon that people think will suddenly die off (just like what people said Scizor would if Tios got banned which is just untrue), these Pokemon's niche do not bank on solely Manaphy in the slgihtest, with the closest being Shedinja in which it will still be a niche but effective Stall pick to deal with a lot of breakers in the tier such as Garchomp in DragMag, Latios, Azumarill, and the rising in popularity TrickPlot Toms. Empoleons biggest niche is far from being a Manaphy check, its being a Steel, and being a Manaphy check alongside it is just a + of using certain Empoleon sets, as it requires Roar and SpDef investment to do it properly, and even then its a shaky one at best. Its really only Mantine that will realistically fall off completely by the ban, some sets / mons might see less use (CM Bliss and Shedinja), but they will definitely still be a thing, especially as the tier continues to develop more.
A lot of the points made discussing Manaphys impact on both sides of teams, namely
Savouras ,
Jokler , and
JustInCaseD to an extent, so I dont think I really need to ramble on about that and you can refer back to their points.
gm oomfie. While I do symphatise with you wanting 1 less Pokemon to think about in the breaker, and I can see it as unhealthy (although not broken nor uncompetitive, nor unhealthy by itself), nothing is really going to change IMO, not builder-wise, nor metagame wise, as honestly I find myself automatically dealing with Manaphy
most of the time without the thought of it popping into my mind, as I have to make precautions for multiple other Mons that facilitate a similiar response, ie Gatr, Mie, offensive / Scarf WashTom. Also I disagree with both Scizor being at 50% a sign of an unhealthy Metagame, and I even think honestly a lot of that is just an overreaction to the Psychics and people still experimenting with BOs, but regardless of that Scizor is an extremely splashable mon due to it providing a lot of utility to the team, being a Steel type in this Metagame is extremely useful, and providing one that isnt extremely passive (like rachi), while still mantaining momentum and being much harder to take advantage off outside of Zoner, and Heatran for non offensive variants, also boost up its usage.
Here are two successful teams of mine that have been used in the sustest for others (as unfortunately I do not have enough time atm), and in other side tours and have performed well. Have fun with the SusTest! More teams in the samples ^^
https://pokepast.es/291553f230a79a6f
https://pokepast.es/5e5c9f361281a15b
tldr @ council leave the tier as it is or kokoloko this shit