np: Doubles Stage 2 - Slumber (THANK GOD ALMIGHTY, [SLEEP] FREE AT LAST)

[TGMD]

I've never really seen the appeal of trying to speed creep anything with Mawile. Not only does it really appreciate that bulk, as it actually has a decent chance of living things like Heat Wave from Mega Charizard Y outside of sun: 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 282-332 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO, but all the things it does out speeds with 100+ speed EVs are usually hit harder by Sucker Punch anyway and the few exceptions are rather unimportant. I also personally prefer Sub over Fire Fang, it can be incredibly potent in doubles, as you can pair it with Follow Me Togekiss or something, and just wreck everything. This is basically just me ranting about my opinion though, so ignore it if you want, lol.

 

[Lolk]

I really like how this meta has finally shifted from weather spam. When I joined doubles, I almost always saw a mega Charizard Y or a Mega Tyranitar on every team, but so many checks for both of those mons and weather in general have popped up in the time I have been here and I really like it.

Everybody has been saying this, but I love how balanced this meta is. Nothing is too OP, and new viable Pokemon literally pop around the corner weekly. Practically anything decent can be incorporated into a team in a much easier fashion than in singles.

Also Snarl is the coolest thing ever it just rolls over every special threat even the annoying one's with Substitute. Hitlercune is my favorite glue Pokemon atm. Almost nothing can switch into Scald / Ice Beam / Snarl and it is so easy to set up Tailwind. Mein Führer.

Yea fun meta :)

 

[Pocket]

Yea, I have greater respect of the water dog after seeing Nollan putting it into good use in some spl matchas. I still feel that it kills some offensive momentum by its disappointing damage output, but reliably setting up Tailwind is certainly a strong niche. Thoughts on giving it Hydro Pump or maybe even CM > Snarl? Mirror Coat may actually be a cool option over Snarl to dish major damage to Pokemon that it can't hurt otherwise, like Rotom-W. Is Chesto Rest an option to preserve its health? Just wanna know if anybody tried out some alternative options on Suicune other than Scald / Ice Beam / Snarl or Protect / Tailwind.

 

[finally]

Yea, I have greater respect of the water dog after seeing Nollan putting it into good use in some spl matchas. I still feel that it kills some offensive momentum by its disappointing damage output, but reliably setting up Tailwind is certainly a strong niche. Thoughts on giving it Hydro Pump or maybe even CM > Snarl? Mirror Coat may actually be a cool option over Snarl to dish major damage to Pokemon that it can't hurt otherwise, like Rotom-W. Is Chesto Rest an option to preserve its health? Just wanna know if anybody tried out some alternative options on Suicune other than Scald / Ice Beam / Snarl or Protect / Tailwind.

All of last year I ran a resto chesto set with scald, snarl, rest, tailwind.
What you would do is pretty much always set up tailwind turn 1. From there you could try doing damage with scald or lower spatk with snarl. And if you need to rest up, your teammates can help out while you take a nap. It's very effective, especially for teams with no definitive answer to bulky water types. Even if resto cune didn't get a kill by itself, it forced the opponent into such a bad position that you had a major advantage.
Sitrus is interesting now though because it can guarantee 3hkoes that resto can not (char-y solar beam or char-y solar beam in conjunction with LO chlorosaur giga drain). Protect is not needed when you blitzkreig with hitlercune :]]]]]]
Less effective in this meta imo because of grass types and electric getting their respective buffs, but still p fun to run.

 

[Pocket]

Ah alright thanks for the explanation, finally :d

Charizard Y's Solar Beam 2HKOs though?

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 232 HP / 84 SpD Suicune: 250-296 (62.6 - 74.1%)

It can survive 2 Modest Venusaur's Giga Drain, given that it's not boosted by Life Orb, though:

252+ SpA Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 232 HP / 84 SpD Suicune: 186-222 (46.6 - 55.6%)

Char Y's Solar Beam + Venusaur's Giga Drain should be a solid 2HKO, even accounting for Sitrus Berry recovery

 

[finally]

Ah alright thanks for the explanation, finally :d

Charizard Y's Solar Beam 2HKOs though?

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 232 HP / 84 SpD Suicune: 250-296 (62.6 - 74.1%)

It can survive 2 Modest Venusaur's Giga Drain, given that it's not boosted by Life Orb, though:

252+ SpA Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 232 HP / 84 SpD Suicune: 186-222 (46.6 - 55.6%)

Char Y's Solar Beam + Venusaur's Giga Drain should be a solid 2HKO, even accounting for Sitrus Berry recovery

rip all suicune variants then lololol

 

[Arcticblast]

I wanted to make this post like two weeks ago but never got around to it.

Here's a few Pokemon I've used on and off that don't get a ton of attention when they're actually fantastic.

Mega Manectric

Mostly dismissed at the beginning of XY, Mega Manectric is actually pretty cool for outrunning the fastest common Pokemon in the metagame - Shaymin-S. As we've seen with Lando-T, Intimidate and a switching move is an excellent combination, and on top of that Manectric gets STAB on Volt Switch. Electric STAB is also pretty nice right now, hitting Charizard Y, Gyarados, Keldeo, and Togekiss for super effective damage and getting excellent neutral coverage (the most common Electrics don't resist Electric). A quick HP Ice disposes of stuff like Lando-T, Garchomp, and Shaymin-S. It even gets Overheat for the bulky Grass-types that normally wall it (although it's hard to justify giving up any of its typical moves). Just ensure you run enough Speed to outrun Garchomp before Mega Evolution and you cover basically everything relevant. I'm personally curious about a defensive set - I've used a Raikou set with TWave / Snarl / Volt Switch to Laga-smashing success and I wonder if Mega Manectric would accomplish it better or not.

Suicune

Suicune got a bit of discussion in the posts above mine but I might as well expand on it a bit. Its bulk really is fantastic and it gets some excellent moves to compliment it. I've been running an EV spread of 232 HP / 32 Def / 128 SAtk / 84 SDef / 32 Spd Bold on a team of mine and it's really neat what it can do, avoiding a 2HKO (with Sitrus) from all of Adamant Mega Kangaskhan's Return and 136 Modest Rotom-W's Thunderbolt in addition to avoiding the KO from Modest Shaymin-S's Seed Flare. Ice Beam with the SpA EVs OHKO's Shaymin-S and Lando-T. Snarl is great, lowering the opponent's SpA behind Substitutes (hello Heatran) while getting some decent chip damage in - and unlike the average Icy Wind user (hello Cress), it threatens Bisharp with a burn from Scald. We all know how Tailwind works too, and Suicune is an excellent Tailwind setter - it unfortunately shares the Electric weakness that most setters have, but it's neutral to Rock and doesn't give a fuck about Ice.

Flareon

this thing is legit stronger than Darmanitan after a Guts boost ;)

A few other Pokemon I've considered looking at some more:
- Tornadus - itemless Acrobatics still puts in work, and its Speed gives unreliable priority user Bisharp some competition (although its bulk is awful)
- Shaymin-S - fast, strong, destroys most Sleepers, and okay haxing things is fun
- Zapdos - Competition with Thundurus as far as typing goes, but Heat Wave and Tailwind let it stand out
- Gourgeist-Super - cool TR setter, bulky as fuck, dgaf about Spore

 

[atomicllamas]

I wonder why Arcticblast is talking about Flareon @_@, but I definitely gotta check some of those out. I've found Mega-Manectric can be very annoying to play against if played well, do to high speed and powerful coverage, so maybe I will toy around with that a bit :o.

I actually wanted to talk about a pretty cool core that I have been using while exploring doubles, beyond just getting reqs, involving Conkledurr + Shaymin-S:

Shaymin-Sky @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Conkeldurr @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Wide Guard

This pair is actually really powerful right now in the meta, because many of the powerful attacks (or weak attacks like icy wind), that people use to target Shaymin-S are spread moves (looking at you Heat Wave and Rock Slide @_@). But the pairing of Shaymin-S and Conkledurr goes beyond just powerful attacker + wide guard abuser (although this is a large chunk, lol), but it also has the benefit pretty good offensive synergy, as Shaymin-S's main annoyance, Heatran, does not like to stay on the field around Conkledurr, which makes it harder for it to deal with Shaymin. Obviously this core struggles with Talonflame (and flying types in general) so having additional flying resists like Tyranitar (also makes Zard easier to deal with), are definitely a must with these pkmn. Just thought it was a p cool core in this meta :).

 

[BlankZero]

I wonder why Arcticblast is talking about Flareon @_@, but I definitely gotta check some of those out. I've found Mega-Manectric can be very annoying to play against if played well, do to high speed and powerful coverage, so maybe I will toy around with that a bit :o.

I actually wanted to talk about a pretty cool core that I have been using while exploring doubles, beyond just getting reqs, involving Conkledurr + Shaymin-S:

Shaymin-Sky @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Conkeldurr @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Wide Guard

This pair is actually really powerful right now in the meta, because many of the powerful attacks (or weak attacks like icy wind), that people use to target Shaymin-S are spread moves (looking at you Heat Wave and Rock Slide @_@). But the pairing of Shaymin-S and Conkledurr goes beyond just powerful attacker + wide guard abuser (although this is a large chunk, lol), but it also has the benefit pretty good offensive synergy, as Shaymin-S's main annoyance, Heatran, does not like to stay on the field around Conkledurr, which makes it harder for it to deal with Shaymin. Obviously this core struggles with Talonflame (and flying types in general) so having additional flying resists like Tyranitar (also makes Zard easier to deal with), are definitely a must with these pkmn. Just thought it was a p cool core in this meta :).

But Shaymin outspeeds Tran and gets Earth Power...

 

[Bughouse]

I can confirm Gourgeist-S is a great TR setter and really is bulky af. The only thing I'll say about using it though it be very careful your team isn't Heatran weak, because it is more or less the perfect set up bait. In fact, make sure that at least 3 things on your team beat it...

And shut up about Flareon. Just because it has a 100% win rate in SPL doesn't mean it's any good ;)

pwne edit: dont think i didnt catch that

 

[peekabooicu]

As I said on the suspect discussion thread, sleep is not something that is RUINING the metagame necessarily but fake out + sleep definitely affects my play style and makes me more reliant on protect leads. I am not saying it ruin my experience but isn't the definition of something that is ban-able on smogon something that forces metagame players to change their playing style and movesets solely to play against a specific move set? If so, I do believe fake out + sleep has done so to me and several other players and although a right out ban or harsh sleep clause doesn't need to be implemented, it deserves attention and at least a vote imo :)

 

[BlankZero]

As I said on the suspect discussion thread, sleep is not something that is RUINING the metagame necessarily but fake out + sleep definitely affects my play style and makes me more reliant on protect leads. I am not saying it ruin my experience but isn't the definition of something that is ban-able on smogon something that forces metagame players to change their playing style and movesets solely to play against a specific move set? If so, I do believe fake out + sleep has done so to me and several other players and although a right out ban or harsh sleep clause doesn't need to be implemented, it deserves attention and at least a vote imo :)

Why not run a faster Fake Out user then, and a Prankster Safegaurd? Meowstic/Weavile would help. Or just Safety Goggles Togekiss? There's so many ways to stop that setup and it can be seen coming literally in Team Preview.

 

[realiti]

Why not run a faster Fake Out user then, and a Prankster Safegaurd? Meowstic/Weavile would help. Or just Safety Goggles Togekiss? There's so many ways to stop that setup and it can be seen coming literally in Team Preview.

Yeah，but then it shows that you have to change your teambuilding strat so you can get this fast fake out user. But yeah， once you see the setup，it is easy to stop

 

[peekabooicu]

Yeah，but then it shows that you have to change your teambuilding strat so you can get this fast fake out user. But yeah， once you see the setup，it is easy to stop

Yea I completely agree. Some people are taking what I am saying out of context; maybe I did not phrase myself correctly- if so I apologise. I am not saying it is OP, I am just pointing out it makes me change my team building strategy- therefore I guess it should be suspect, that is all I am saying. Tbh it isn't hard to counter, it just changes my approach to doubles.

 

[mkizzy]

i think sleep puts me a bit more on my toes, so to say and makes thinking a bit more necessary for me (although maybe im just bad, i never played gen 5 doubles so im not sure how the meta compares im sure someone could shit on my post and educate me about that). its real cliche at this point but i dig the tr + sleep thing (although i don't think i'll be using sleep shit very extensively outside of the suspect time period). i think its kinda expected though so i might wanna try something different? not sure how common this is because of just starting doubles recently but azumarill + amoonguss is pretty cool, azu can get a belly drum off if you can rage powder successfully, and even cooler is if you combine all three, azumarill outslows a bunch of cool shit like lando-t and ttar. please shit on my post and tell me i'm wrong and should quit pokemon thank you

 

[koolkranny]

I will be honest, the only time I've actually had trouble with 2 Mons asleep is against scarf jumpluff. Infiltrator gets past my safeguard and the speed doesn't allow me to counter attack very quickly. It does fall prey to hax with only 75% accuracy however. But when I see that coming I can usually deal with with it. Sleep has not been a serious concern for my team overall.

Trick room however...

 

[realiti]

I will be honest, the only time I've actually had trouble with 2 Mons asleep is against scarf jumpluff. Infiltrator gets past my safeguard and the speed doesn't allow me to counter attack very quickly. It does fall prey to hax with only 75% accuracy however. But when I see that coming I can usually deal with with it. Sleep has not been a serious concern for my team overall.

Trick room however...

i don't know what you mean about Trick Room, but TR in my opinion is bad against sleep, good when you're using. for TR teams, i like leading with sleep user and Trick Room user, then you almost always get sleep off, and attack with your TR setter if it's strong, like Chandelure's Heat Wave. For TR, i also like using Amoongus. However, i like using fast sleep users like Jumpluff.

 

[User 468572]

For me, sleep doesn't do anything except make me aware that I can be put to sleep. It just affects how I think, and just makes me act a bit more cautious against something like Jumpluff or Breloom. When against a sleep inducer, I just try to scout it first and then attack it appropriately. With the Toge + Breloom core, I have to see if I can avoid sleep in some way, and if not put the appropriate poke to sleep. It doesn't really alter a match much for me.

 

[BlankZero]

This conversation is devolving quite fast so let's jump it while we wait for the vote thread.

What other sleep users have you all tried? Obviously Venu/Amoong/Breloom/Pluff are in high usage, but what about other things? What have you tried and how did it do overall?

 

[realiti]

well those are like the only good things to use. Personally i tried using venemoth with quiverpass to charizard y, works pretty well, but wow, it's so hard to get the sleep off that you might as well put sleep clause on as it wouldn't make a difference. also tried victrebeel, venesaur is much better unless weather ball is really important. parasect just sucks.

 

[tofucocoa]

i know lilligant isn't as viable nowadays without grass gem helping it ohko ttar, but it still makes a pretty good charizard dance partner if i do say so myself. leaf storm is obviously still super strong and it gets helping hand to help maintain momentum without having to switch out, not to mention its access to sleep powder. in fact, i'd say in that regard lilligant might actually be a more efficient/stronger venusaur, who usually doesn't want to use leaf storm in favor of giga drain. of course there's the issue of bulk (70/75/75 vs 80/83/100), but you can afford to forgo speed for HP evs because of chlorophyll i guess. so basically lilligant is a more supportive version of venu with the added kick of that initial leaf storm with arguably better defensive typing than venu (+ground resist, +psychic neutrality, -poison neutrality... fair trade imo) but misses out on STAB sludge bomb that nails skymin, though im not sure if either one can ohko it even with HP ice lol. also, lilligant is much prettier than ugly ol venu-eye-sore.

on the topic of sleep being broken or not... ive played VGC for years so i dont have a problem with no sleep clause with the obvious exception of dark void. i dont think i agree with the sentiments that it would make the meta less fun though, since that argument is based in subjectivity. one person might find the new meta much more enjoyable than the old one based on personal preference, and some people might not enjoy the new meta based on personal preference. we should look at these rules as objectively as possible since these opinions can go either way.

its a damn shame i havent had time to get reqs (ok, pokemon in general sans breeding random shit), but after playing without sleep clause and weighing it against my experience with VGC, there really isn't much difference between the two except for how less annoying amoonguss is. but if i was passing judgement on stuff based on how annoying shit like jirachi, togekiss, thundurus was... a lot more stuff would be nerfed/banned based on post-battle rage.

 

[Braverius]

i dont think i agree with the sentiments that it would make the meta less fun though, since that argument is based in subjectivity.

Going to beat this drum again: this is just a subjective vote at this point. I never really expected this to show that sleep was broken, but rather to see if people want it in this format or not. It's all preference.

 

[Ash Borer]

This conversation is devolving quite fast so let's jump it while we wait for the vote thread.

What other sleep users have you all tried? Obviously Venu/Amoong/Breloom/Pluff are in high usage, but what about other things? What have you tried and how did it do overall?

I attempted to use Hypnosis Darkrai, but it was a failed experiment to say the least. Wide lens is not worth the extra 6% added, Hypnosis still missed a lot, and lacking a useful item was a pain. Hypnosis' accuracy is just far too poor to ever use consistently, and I had to forfeit a slot for coverage which was annoying.

 

[koolkranny]

i don't know what you mean about Trick Room, but TR in my opinion is bad against sleep, good when you're using. for TR teams, i like leading with sleep user and Trick Room user, then you almost always get sleep off, and attack with your TR setter if it's strong, like Chandelure's Heat Wave. For TR, i also like using Amoongus. However, i like using fast sleep users like Jumpluff.

What I meant was that trick room gave my team some trouble, and for a little while I was battling a trick room team every other match.

I saw an interesting sleeper in Scarf Vivillion. Compound eyes and surprisingly high speed caught me off guard.

 

[hard]

I attempted to use Hypnosis Darkrai, but it was a failed experiment to say the least. Wide lens is not worth the extra 6% added, Hypnosis still missed a lot, and lacking a useful item was a pain. Hypnosis' accuracy is just far too poor to ever use consistently, and I had to forfeit a slot for coverage which was annoying.

You are so right! 82% with Wide Lens Sleep Powder might be worth the risk, but 66% is not. Will-O-Wisp Darkrai had a lot better performance. I could´t find a competent Hypnosis user at all tbh.

I tested Hypnosis Darkrai in a Gravity support team and it still was clumsy. The best I could do is support it with enough bulk and screens to live long enough if gravity runs out.

Btw I´m very unimpressed by some 5-Turn Field moves, weather it was Safeguard, Gravity or LightClayless Screens it was just a bit too easy to play around them/ getting stalled out. This can be troublesome, if you have to react to a sleep threat in Preview and your opponent is skillful enough to anticipate and abuse that pressure.
Safeguard would be so much better if it got the boost from LightClay, but as it is now it´s best used to safely swagger your own teammates in some matches.

I saw some Vivillons as well, which might have been scarfed but I think it was something else (maybe WideLens for 100% because 3% misses are so discouraging). My scarfed LandorusT was not polite enough to let it tell me. SpeedControl might be the best way to use it. Outside of Jumpluff, this was true for the other sleep users as well. Maybe Trickroom Breloom could be a thing.

Edit: Seeing that mostly SleepPowder and Spore are used, did anyone have success with SapSipper Pokemon?