np: Latios - "unban me"

[diamondfan1910]

Yes, the best is Metagross technically but there are others that work, depends on the opposing team.

Funny you should say that, because I just played a full-health Magnezone with Jirachi @ about 70% and I won, because Maggy can't break subs after a few Calm Minds and a +4 or +5 T-bolt will 2HKO. I'll definitely try HP Ground at some point, I'm just not a huge fan of Hidden Power.

Should those 36 remaining EVs be moved to Special Defence to make it easier to set up on Latios? Or should they stay in Special Attack so each boost will hurt more?

On the subject of Memento teams, I haven't had issues. This is mainly because Gliscor shouldn't stand up to Metagross' Explosion after Stealth Rock. If he does, Scizor's Bullet Punch finishes him off. I find most Memento teams tend to fall apart after Gliscor goes down, so maybe try to keep him alive as long as possible. My short-lived Memento team had a 2 - 2 record, so I can't tell you too much about it. I was on a Poke-holiday in the Deoxys-S phase but it sounds like his Dual Screen was worse than Latios'.

 

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by Seven Deadly Sins
46.70% - 54.99% is 0 attack Life Orb Outrage versus 651/119 Calm Blissey. Not very impressive, really.

Well.... no freaking shit... no attack EVs... a Neutral Natured 252 Attack Outrage does 60-71% to Blissey... I posted that in the OP of my thread. Draco Meteor + Outrage WILL kill Blissey, and unlike Salamence, most Blissey will stay in. And, the reason you use Neutral Nature is because unlike Mixmence, you still get 330+ Special Attack with only a few EVs and a boosting nature.

 

[Tucker]

Stupid question I know, but I never tried to meet the requirements for a test before what exactly does 1760/55 and 1655/65 mean exactly.

 

[lilyhollow]

the first number is the average of your rating (not your Conservative Rating Estimate, which is used for the ladder), and the second number is your deviation. For example, if your rating is 1700-1800, your average is 1750 and your deviation is (1800-1700)/2 = 50, meaning that you meet the lower requirement (and are just shy of the upper requirement). You can find out what your rating is in the smogon shoddy server by right clicking your name and clicking "check rating" (or something to that effect).

 

[RaikouLover]

I'm playing this right now... the metagame on both Suspect and Standard is way more centralized than Garchomp days. EVERY team is Steel Steel Steel Dragon Dragon... or complete utter stall. Offensive teams are extinct.

 

[Caelum]

I'm playing this right now... the metagame on both Suspect and Standard is way more centralized than Garchomp days. EVERY team is Steel Steel Steel Dragon Dragon... or complete utter stall. Offensive teams are extinct.

Even if this were true, which from my experience is debatable. How is a team of 3 Steels and 3 Dragons not offensive?

 

[RaikouLover]

It is, but they have identical team structure meaning every battle goes the same way. No diversity.

 

[Peachfuzz]

I'm tired of dragons and Memento and Gliscor.

Agreeing with RaikouLover that the metagame is overcentralized around the monstrous dragon dragon dragon steel steel steel teams, stall, and Latios -> Gliscor -> Metagross based teams.

The game isn't revolving around Latios and it's counters, but around dragons. Even though I would vote Uber as of right now, I'm not sure if that is the correct solution.

 

[diamondfan1910]

But in Garchomp days, EVERY team had a Garchomp... it's not like Dragon/Steel and Stall are unbeatable. Garchomp wasn't either, but I think he was less manageable. I think the worst part is how boring Stall is.

Also, I haven't seen a single Dragon/Steel on Standard and there's more Stall on Suspect than Standard... that's a mouthful. Maybe once Latios arrives, things will change to a more Suspect-y metagame. Currently though, I don't think they're similar.

 

[Kay [Old]]

I'm personally using a variance of Raikou's balanced team that he posted a while back, and it's been highly successful.
While I do believe that the metagame with Latias and Latios is massively inferior to the metagame beforehand, I can't really see how Latios is responsible. Uxie can serve just as well on the Baton Passing to Metagross strategy, and I can't see how adding another offensive threat has contributed to the ridiculous amount of stall I've been seeing. I'm really not sure about voting right now - like I said, I think the metagame is far worse, but I'm not sure how he's directly responsible for it.

 

[Evisu]

But in Garchomp days, EVERY team had a Garchomp... it's not like Dragon/Steel and Stall are unbeatable. Garchomp wasn't either, but I think he was less manageable.

I think every team having the same 6 pokemon is a little worse than every team having 1 of the same pokemon. Wouldn't you agree? I don't play a single game where I don't see Scizor, Salamence, Magnezone, and Lati@s. This goes for both ladders, the only variation I see in triple dragon/triple steel teams is in the lead aside from that they are almost always identical.

I am really put off by this metagame and it kind of makes me want to just stop playing. This metagame is not fun to play in the least, it feels like I'm playing the same opponent over and over when I'm not.

 

[diamondfan1910]

Then you must be playing a different ladder to me. I'll give you Scizor, but on Suspect I'm not seeing Salamence in every match, nor am I seeing Magnezone at all. Latios is to be expected, it's a Latios test. I'm not just saying this to be difficult, I'm saying it because it's what I've been seeing. I haven't played Standard for a couple of days now, but I haven't seen Dragon/Steel at all on there including the time when Latias has been on there. The Suspect ladder is less fun than the Latias test, I'll agree with that. But I didn't have more fun with Garchomp.

EDIT: Zen Headbutt may actually be a decent choice for BP recieving Metagross. I just won a would-be loss battle because Ice Punch wasn't enough to kill Rotom-h. I'm not sure what it would go over though. Mash is way strong, EQ is needed for Steels, the punches rape Mence and Gyarados.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

It'd probably go over Mash because Steel is a crappy offensive type.

 

[umbarsc]

"Garchomp was on every team" is obviously biased hyperbole. Obviously "Every team is 3 Dragon/3 Steel" is as well, but the latter is definitely closer to the truth.

 

[Kay [Old]]

After further playing, I really am starting to draw the conclusion that Latios is indeed directly responsible for this massive increase in stall. He hits so damn hard on the special side that using steels (who generally suck at Special Defense) isn't really enough to deal with him, and you need a bunch of defensive Pokemon of various kinds to deal with Latios - which means an increase in stall, as people dump a bunch of highly defensive Pokemon in order to combat this new ridiculous offensive threat. While before I was ambivalent about Latios, I'm now further and further convinced that this thing is Uber. The fact that this metagame is so goddamned boring really doesn't help his case either.

 

[Pimplup]

I'm playing this right now... the metagame on both Suspect and Standard is way more centralized than Garchomp days. EVERY team is Steel Steel Steel Dragon Dragon... or complete utter stall. Offensive teams are extinct.

Not entirely. In fact, I use an offensive team that has worked quite well, mainly consisting of Bulky Sweepers and MixApe, so 2 Physicals, 2 Specials, Lead, and Mixed. I know the way I built my team is very classic, and not the best way to create a team, but it works very well. Just wanted to point out they're not extinct. But yeah, Stall is dominating play, almost everyone uses it. I need to mention that I hate Skarm (the Pokemon :P)...

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Agreeing with all the "Dragon/Steel" is on every team these days. On both Lati Suspect Tests, I ran Shed Shell on Scizor because about everyone and their mother had a Magnezone on their team. I always get a bunch of "WTF's" from my opponents, but hey, it's about as gimmicky as sticking HP Fire on Magnezone.

I think that there's a problem with Salamence. You switch in Cresselia only to find that it's a Specially Defensive DDMence. You switch in Gyarados and get a Draco Meteor courtsey of SpecsMence. The first switch is always the hardest, and you're bound to mess up at least one time, which makes solely relying on an outright counter hard. Thusly, it's much easier to check it by having a couple of Steels on your team. If you mess up and switch Mamoswine into an Outrage rather than a DD, you just clean the mess up with Scizor. Not to mention it's almost impossible to switch in anything but a Steel into "the wrong attack" of Draco Meteor or Outrage.

Then people who use Salamence to sweep notice this. They add more Dragons on their team so that they can wear down the Steels. Maybe a Magnezone to their own team to trap those Steels. A team of a bunch of Dragons is vulnerable to Outrage, so they themselves have to pile up on the Steels as well.

Why Salamence over any other Dragon? Flygon is less powerful and is almost always choiced; it is quite one-dimensional and thusly less threatening. Latias is outright walled by Blissey, and again, generally only runs special sets. I can't remember the last time I fought a Dragonite, but the general consensus is that it is overshadowed by Salamence. Latios seems to be the closest to Salamence in terms of unpredictability and power. However, from what I have encountered, the majority of non-supporting Latios are either walled by Blissey or just played as less powerful Salamences (perhaps not built in that way, but that's all they've seemed to do - just DD and Outrage). There have been a few mixed Latios, which to me is much more threatening.

Also, is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that Infernape seems to run a lot more attack lately? Vaporeon doesn't look like a good switch - in anymore.

 

[BalancedPower]

I have been trying somethings out with Latios and personally the one I had most success with is Choice Specs Latios.
So far the build I have been using is...
Draco Meteor (Rawr power, one of the strongest moves for him, with the massive damage/STAB well...it is a pretty obvious pick)
Dragon Pulse (Yes, two Dragon moves, but it is a STAB and for weaker opponents, specially when you don't want to use the extra PP it is still really strong or don't want your Spc. Attack crashing)
Hidden Power Fire (It wrecks the best counters to Latios, which are generally Scizor/Magnezone/Gross)
Thunderbolt (A common counter I have seen are Water types with Ice related moves, so Thunderbolt provides good coverage, and it also hurts Steel pretty well)
Anyway, it may not be the strongest build, but it has worked well for me, and just by using Latios, I generally gain a 2 pokemon advantage, with a bunch of extra perks. Honestly, adding a Fire type with Choice Scarf to the team, will also revenge kill so many, and really dominates. Build your team around that and well, I think you can be fairly successful.

 

[Misa]

Hidden Power Fire (It wrecks the best counters to Latios, which are generally Scizor/Magnezone/Gross)

Instead of HP fire, I would suggest surf on there since it can 2HKO all of the pokemon that you've mentioned, as well as 2HKOing Heatran if it decides to switch in.

If you're that worried about scizor, HP fire would be fine.

 

[Gaborik]

Agreeing with all the "Dragon/Steel" is on every team these days. On both Lati Suspect Tests, I ran Shed Shell on Scizor because about everyone and their mother had a Magnezone on their team. I always get a bunch of "WTF's" from my opponents, but hey, it's about as gimmicky as sticking HP Fire on Magnezone.

I think that there's a problem with Salamence. You switch in Cresselia only to find that it's a Specially Defensive DDMence. You switch in Gyarados and get a Draco Meteor courtsey of SpecsMence. The first switch is always the hardest, and you're bound to mess up at least one time, which makes solely relying on an outright counter hard. Thusly, it's much easier to check it by having a couple of Steels on your team. If you mess up and switch Mamoswine into an Outrage rather than a DD, you just clean the mess up with Scizor. Not to mention it's almost impossible to switch in anything but a Steel into "the wrong attack" of Draco Meteor or Outrage.

Then people who use Salamence to sweep notice this. They add more Dragons on their team so that they can wear down the Steels. Maybe a Magnezone to their own team to trap those Steels. A team of a bunch of Dragons is vulnerable to Outrage, so they themselves have to pile up on the Steels as well.

Why Salamence over any other Dragon? Flygon is less powerful and is almost always choiced; it is quite one-dimensional and thusly less threatening. Latias is outright walled by Blissey, and again, generally only runs special sets. I can't remember the last time I fought a Dragonite, but the general consensus is that it is overshadowed by Salamence. Latios seems to be the closest to Salamence in terms of unpredictability and power. However, from what I have encountered, the majority of non-supporting Latios are either walled by Blissey or just played as less powerful Salamences (perhaps not built in that way, but that's all they've seemed to do - just DD and Outrage). There have been a few mixed Latios, which to me is much more threatening.

Also, is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that Infernape seems to run a lot more attack lately? Vaporeon doesn't look like a good switch - in anymore.

I agree with this, the unpredictability of Salamence is hard to counter, in play not just in practice (on paper). He is a great pokemon in the normal metagame, but really sticks out in this suspect game - helps beat the own type of team he is put on ("3 steel/3 dragon"), eats up stall, etc.

The simple Brick Break/Draco Meteor/FBlast/Roost set does wonders on these stall teams dominating play. If anyone is going to play offense and they don't include Salamence in the suspect test then they are just being stupid in my opinion. I see scarf Flygons everywhere (not "everywhere" but more than I should) as a check to "revenge" kill Salamence/Kingdra/Latios but they are getting predictable and almost useless. Getting locked into the wrong move is just disaster early game - and he just has no impact against stall teams which makes him hard to use - not enough power to make a difference against stall (Skarm loves to set up on you!)

I ran a full attack SDance/CC/Fire Punch/Stone Edge Mixape which has also run through a couple stall teams as well. Vaporeon doesn't even know what hits it with that set - eats up Bulky Gyarados, etc. A theoretical/typical "stall" team with something like BulkyDos/Bulky Water, Celebi, Blissey, Forretress, Rotom form, filler (TTar/Hippow/Jirachi/etc.) just gets eaten up by a Swords Dancing Ape. Make sure to pack a solid answer to Latios, as a few stall teams stick him on there too, and you are set to go.

 

[Veedrock]

I'm playing this right now... the metagame on both Suspect and Standard is way more centralized than Garchomp days. EVERY team is Steel Steel Steel Dragon Dragon... or complete utter stall. Offensive teams are extinct.

Word.

Seriously, stall is everywhere on suspect. Many people say that they never encounter it, but as their rating gets higher they play more and more stall. It's aggrivating beyond belief and makes team building that much harder.

After further playing, I really am starting to draw the conclusion that Latios is indeed directly responsible for this massive increase in stall. He hits so damn hard on the special side that using steels (who generally suck at Special Defense) isn't really enough to deal with him, and you need a bunch of defensive Pokemon of various kinds to deal with Latios - which means an increase in stall, as people dump a bunch of highly defensive Pokemon in order to combat this new ridiculous offensive threat. While before I was ambivalent about Latios, I'm now further and further convinced that this thing is Uber. The fact that this metagame is so goddamned boring really doesn't help his case either.

I made this conclusion several days ago. People went offensive to counter the "defensive" Lati, now people are going defensive to counter the offensive one. It's ridiculous and is directly related to Latios and the teams built around him. As I've stated before (and will state time and time again), the only thing that can come in on Latios multiple times is Blissey. If it's a physical set, stall teams usually have 4 physical walls to deal with it. Mixed doesn't have the sheer power to cripple stall; even Blissey can shrug off unboosted physical hits from Latios, and Celebi walls mixed Latios pretty damn well.

I do not like this metagame and find it very annoying to play. It's hard to ladder when stall stops most offense dead cold.

 

[Tucker]

I'm not really getting the most out of this test it's hard to see what Latios can do if people are taking every measure to completly halt it from staying in for more than 1 turn.

Stall is annoying and getting a bit tedious that I might just run a Stall-Breaker team, hail is also tedious, as well as pursuit everywhere. It's hard to believe everyone will run ScarfCross on standard just to deal with latios, which why this test in my opinion is not going as well as the last.

If we ran a similar test with Palkia we'd get the same outcome, everyone is working hard to trap and kill Latios the moment they see it, which in turn will lead people to believe that Latios is handable, which may not be true if everyone stops running Blissey + ScarfCross to halt him.

 

[diamondfan1910]

Tucker, I think Pursuit is everywhere because Scizor is everywhere.

I saw less Stall and Dragon/Steel last night but the Suspect Ladder has become much less of a "fun alternative" to Standard than it was in the Latias test.

Still haven't seen more than one Magnezone, or Scarfcross for that matter. Scizor is much harder to trap because he's always U-turning and Superpowering.

Also I think Mamoswine would be one of the best leads if Metagross' defence wasn't so damn high. He's still pretty good though.

 

[pi face]

stall always existed. Just use what you've used before to stop it.
but yeah, I too don't like this suspect metagame

 

[cim]

The problem is that the way the test is set up we'll have no idea if this is what the metagame will be like when Latios is in OU or not, for the only reason to play this ladder is to get to vote or to use latios... So I don't understand what kind of knowledge we are supposed to be gaining.