Ah, so Grass Gem Power Whip Lickilicky is the set to stop Gorebyss.
Are we seriously considering stuff like this?
Are we seriously considering stuff like this?
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np: NU Stage 1 - Welcome to Heartbreak
- Thread starter tennisace
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I've been messing around with Sunny Day teams personally. Exeggutor is truly amazing, Victreebel is also a nice (albeit only) addition to the tier with Growth so currently I have little to no trouble with Gorebyss.
However, if we are considering such outlandish methods like Grass Gem Power Whip Licki JUST for Gorebyss, then we have a problem...
However, if we are considering such outlandish methods like Grass Gem Power Whip Licki JUST for Gorebyss, then we have a problem...
I don't think anyone was really considering Grass Gem Lickilicky...
Hilarious as it may sound... I think I've found a decent NU Spiker.
Evolite Shelmet.
No, I'm serious.
50/85/65 with Evolite is actualy pretty bulky, especially running 252 HP EV's. Shelmet also gets Recover, making him the ONLY Spiker in NU with reliable recovery.
I get a couple of layers up rather frequently with Shelmet. Most set-up threats lothe Toxic as well.
Oddly enough, I keep getting paralysed with Shelmet, and parahaxed to death in the end. He can actually wall most physical attackers with ease.
I just keep it WELL away from anything likly to carry sub, like Mespirit.
EDIT: Or maybe I was just playing bad players. Shelmet isn't that good. That said, nor are any NU Spikers.
Evolite Shelmet.
No, I'm serious.
50/85/65 with Evolite is actualy pretty bulky, especially running 252 HP EV's. Shelmet also gets Recover, making him the ONLY Spiker in NU with reliable recovery.
I get a couple of layers up rather frequently with Shelmet. Most set-up threats lothe Toxic as well.
Oddly enough, I keep getting paralysed with Shelmet, and parahaxed to death in the end. He can actually wall most physical attackers with ease.
I just keep it WELL away from anything likly to carry sub, like Mespirit.
EDIT: Or maybe I was just playing bad players. Shelmet isn't that good. That said, nor are any NU Spikers.
destinyunknown
Banned deucer.
I actually tried Shelmet in November as i was trying spikers for a stall team and found Garbodor mediocre. I often play LC so I knew how bulky shelmet was and in fact it worked pretty well.
About gorebyss, is a pretty controversial topic....
At first I didn't though gorebyss was broken. It was pretty powerful yeah, but it could be stopped too. However, after seeing how the metagame is going, I would say Gorebyss is broken. The impact gorebyss makes in the metagame is really huge. Let's take a common example, Gorebyss matchup against a Rock-type. This is common since Gorebyss is usually paired with normal or flying pokemon like Swellow which can just u-turn. After that, you have to face Gorebyss with your regirock, and you have 2 options, T-Wave/Hit it or Switch Out. If you stay in, you may loose your Normal counter due to Surf or even worse, face a shitty Sub Gorebyss, whereas if you try to switch out you realize how difficult is to switch into a probable Surf or a Shell Smash which are the two things your opponent can do. So after that, you would have probably a) lose your swellow counter or b) facing a +2 gorebyss. So basically, you are screwed. In this situation, the only mon that stand a chance of switching in is scarf jynx or something like Regice (and if there are hazards Regice will have a hard time). The problem of how bad are (in general) the posible scarvers with a speed over 85 base in NU makes Gorebyss even more tough to face. And some faster pokemon like Haunter (outspeed with scarf) simply dies if they switch into Surf.
About gorebyss, is a pretty controversial topic....
At first I didn't though gorebyss was broken. It was pretty powerful yeah, but it could be stopped too. However, after seeing how the metagame is going, I would say Gorebyss is broken. The impact gorebyss makes in the metagame is really huge. Let's take a common example, Gorebyss matchup against a Rock-type. This is common since Gorebyss is usually paired with normal or flying pokemon like Swellow which can just u-turn. After that, you have to face Gorebyss with your regirock, and you have 2 options, T-Wave/Hit it or Switch Out. If you stay in, you may loose your Normal counter due to Surf or even worse, face a shitty Sub Gorebyss, whereas if you try to switch out you realize how difficult is to switch into a probable Surf or a Shell Smash which are the two things your opponent can do. So after that, you would have probably a) lose your swellow counter or b) facing a +2 gorebyss. So basically, you are screwed. In this situation, the only mon that stand a chance of switching in is scarf jynx or something like Regice (and if there are hazards Regice will have a hard time). The problem of how bad are (in general) the posible scarvers with a speed over 85 base in NU makes Gorebyss even more tough to face. And some faster pokemon like Haunter (outspeed with scarf) simply dies if they switch into Surf.
This is essentially my sentiments. Gorey can come in on almost everything used to take hits from Swellow/Braviary/Dodrio/Altaria/ in the tier. should it come in safely, which is pretty likely to happen, it will either force you to attempt to cripple it as they smash, or Switch in an attempt to keep your rock/bulky poke gorey can take on. Best case scenario, you bring in a check as they smash like Rotom-F for instance, and can then force them out, but should you predict incorrectly you could potentially throw away the mon you brought in, and greatly reduce your chance of stopping gorey later. Should you stay in you risk losing probably your only safe switch in to birds, rodents, and other things the poke in question was your answer to. This doesn't neccesarily apply to bulky rock types in particular since the same theory can be applied to needing Spdef camerupt for a magmortar or something. The best answer I can come up with in light of this is Jynx who can switch in without fear of gorey, and hopefully deal enough damage to stop it, or attempt to sleep it.
I don't think gorey is broken on the basis that it alone can sweep teams, I think it's a lot more dangerous for the strain it can put on a team, which could easily end up costing you the match. That said; I suck at Nu and my opinions are probably somewhat biased, based on my poor teambuilding, but whatever.
gorebyss is a lot like excadrill was in OU - as soon as you see it in team preview, you know, ok i have to keep this pokemon alive and this pokemon alive, every pokemon on my team has to be able to OHKO it, etc. and since absol's sucker punch is really the only priority that can revenge it, and absol is already used to check so many thing and gets worn down so easily, its just so hard to keep him alive. Gorebyss is just ugh.
On a related note, cacturne kinda sucks at getting spikes down. maybe it's just me but he's so frail and doesnt pack much of a punch at all. I'm gonna try out eviolite shelmet even though it is epic taunt bait.
On a related note, cacturne kinda sucks at getting spikes down. maybe it's just me but he's so frail and doesnt pack much of a punch at all. I'm gonna try out eviolite shelmet even though it is epic taunt bait.
For a situation like that, I'd just attack Gorebyss with Regirock. I wouldn't mind if Regirock dies to Surf before a Shell Smash. So that way, I can bring in a faster Pokemon to try and revenge kill. Or at least, put some offensive pressure to my opponent. You just need to remember that Shell Smash also takes away both defenses to the point where Gorebyss is fragile. If it has White Herb, well, it lacks the raw power without Life Orb. It may miss out some KOs. Although, I'm not too sure about that. It's just not worth losing a scarfer if you mispredict when you have a Regirock alive. It's just worth more by saccing Regirock as long it got Stealth Rock up. As for the bird and Gorebyss combo, I'd definitely suggest Choice Scarf Timid Rotom-S since they are both weak to Thunderbolt. It has the speed base of 86, so Braviary can't outspeed Rotom-S with Choice Scarf. It also outspeeds +2 Timid Gorebyss by one speed point. If you fear about losing Regirock, because Stealth Rock isn't up or it's your only Swellow counter. Sac something else, so you can safely bring in your scarfer. I wouldn't say you would be screwed. It's all about playing around it.
Not to mention if 'Byss gets in you basically have to sacrifice at least one mon to take it out, because nothing can switch in safely and have a chance at a OHKO [Except Dry Skin Jynx and Water Absorb Cacturne on Surf, the former being resistant to Ice as well, and the latter having a strong STAB Sucker Punch so it dosen't have to fear an Ice Beam.]
Bearing in mind after you make the sacrifice to get you 'Byss check in, nothing is stopping 'Byss switching out, and doing it all over again, requireing a second sacrifice.
I mean, look at the metagame. If something has an Electric or Grass-type attack, it's generally running it unless it's worthless, just so 'Byss can't set up on them scott-free.
'Byss is kinda like 4th Gen Mence. You CAN handle it, but it's almost certain to get at least one KO per game, and it centralises the metagame, and teambuilding, to massive extents.
In my opinion, 'Byss is horribly broken. 1 turn of setup giving something which already has a high Sp.Atk double Sp.Atk and double Speed, patching up pretty much it's only flaw, is too good.
Especially with the lack of decent Water-types to resist Ice Beam and Surf.
Bearing in mind after you make the sacrifice to get you 'Byss check in, nothing is stopping 'Byss switching out, and doing it all over again, requireing a second sacrifice.
I mean, look at the metagame. If something has an Electric or Grass-type attack, it's generally running it unless it's worthless, just so 'Byss can't set up on them scott-free.
'Byss is kinda like 4th Gen Mence. You CAN handle it, but it's almost certain to get at least one KO per game, and it centralises the metagame, and teambuilding, to massive extents.
In my opinion, 'Byss is horribly broken. 1 turn of setup giving something which already has a high Sp.Atk double Sp.Atk and double Speed, patching up pretty much it's only flaw, is too good.
Especially with the lack of decent Water-types to resist Ice Beam and Surf.
I think based on the fact that so much of the metagame is based on preventing Gorebyss from setting up that it could run a strong Sub+3 attacks set. With Modest and LO, it 2hko's Quaggy with Surf, which lets you run HP Electric for Mantine or HP Rock for Jynx. Even if the other guy doesn't let you set up a Sub you can just beat the rock-type you're coming in on with Surf and free it up for your bird to sweep. He doesn't need to set up when he can just break walls with its high-powered water attacks, since with HP investment it's reasonably bulky. It's hard to say whether it's broken or not because there are so few alternatives to run that you can compare it to. It's ridiculous how few good water-types there are left in NU, the only ones that are also capable of abusing their stab on the special side are Clamperl (lol), Samurott (who prefers running SD physical most of the time), Simipour, and Lapras.
Another mon I need to hype up because of its nice mix of speed and power is Dodrio. Adamant dodrio outpaces timid rotom-S by 1 point, and with Brave Bird and Thrash it gets two powerful sweeping options in the late-game. STAB Quick Attack gives it an out vs. Absol, and Drill Peck and Return give backup non-recoil options. It can make a great scarfed cleaner since it's the highest speed within the tier other than Fearow. Its Thrash is much like scarfchomp's outrage, but in NU, and it has Brave Bird. :P
Another mon I need to hype up because of its nice mix of speed and power is Dodrio. Adamant dodrio outpaces timid rotom-S by 1 point, and with Brave Bird and Thrash it gets two powerful sweeping options in the late-game. STAB Quick Attack gives it an out vs. Absol, and Drill Peck and Return give backup non-recoil options. It can make a great scarfed cleaner since it's the highest speed within the tier other than Fearow. Its Thrash is much like scarfchomp's outrage, but in NU, and it has Brave Bird. :P
Dodrio is completely outclassed by Swellow, who is faster, hits harder [Due to Guts], has U-Turn, and Status-Boosted Facade beats Thrash, both in damage and not being locked in.
Swellow also gets Quick Attack. Except, you know, Guts.
Also, Swellow Jumpluff, Floatzel, Electrode, Zebrastrika, Ciccino, Persian, Sneasel, Swoobat, Serperior, Tauros, Liepard, Cryongal, Eelctrabuzz, Kadabra, Lopunny, Rapidash, Emolga, the Simis and Ninjask all outspeed Dodrio.
Far from the highest speed in the teir. Especially since it ties with Fearow, Linoone, Militank, Raikchu, Regigigas [After Slow Start] and Slaking.
Swellow also gets Quick Attack. Except, you know, Guts.
Also, Swellow Jumpluff, Floatzel, Electrode, Zebrastrika, Ciccino, Persian, Sneasel, Swoobat, Serperior, Tauros, Liepard, Cryongal, Eelctrabuzz, Kadabra, Lopunny, Rapidash, Emolga, the Simis and Ninjask all outspeed Dodrio.
Far from the highest speed in the teir. Especially since it ties with Fearow, Linoone, Militank, Raikchu, Regigigas [After Slow Start] and Slaking.
destinyunknown
Banned deucer.
But that's what I meant :/
If you let regirock die, swellow would probably (unless you have a second counter) sweep free.
If you switch to something to sac, gorebyss may predict that and boost.
And I also said that another problem is that most possible scarvers who outspeed gorebyss are either too bad or weak to SR (like Rotom or Jynx). So basically your post says the same as mine (moreless). And I know dealing with gorebyss is not impossible but is indeed really troublesome as we all know.
DestinyUnknown, this is 5th gen. Obviously, if you only carry one check/counter to something, and it's elmininated, the Pokemon you wanted to check can sweep. That's just how the game works. I could put basically any offensive Pokemon in your post and it would make sense.
Again, I acknowledge that Gorebyss can sweep teams if you are unprepared or outplayed. However, that doesn't make Gorebyss broken. Centralization around the top threats will always happen because there has to be SOMETHING on top. Regardless of what said top Pokemon is, you need to carry checks or counters to it. Banning it is only the solution if there are either zero reliable checks or the Pokemon can consistently beat everything that sets out to check it, regardless of how you or your opponent plays.
Gorebyss has a myriad of different offensive and defensive checks, and a lot of them have good synergy in their own right. We don't have to resort to gimmicks to try and deal with Gorebyss. Teams don't have to totally focus on beating Gorebyss to the point where they become unable to deal with other Pokemon. Gorebyss is a centralizing Pokemon. But centralizing is not broken.
Again, I acknowledge that Gorebyss can sweep teams if you are unprepared or outplayed. However, that doesn't make Gorebyss broken. Centralization around the top threats will always happen because there has to be SOMETHING on top. Regardless of what said top Pokemon is, you need to carry checks or counters to it. Banning it is only the solution if there are either zero reliable checks or the Pokemon can consistently beat everything that sets out to check it, regardless of how you or your opponent plays.
Gorebyss has a myriad of different offensive and defensive checks, and a lot of them have good synergy in their own right. We don't have to resort to gimmicks to try and deal with Gorebyss. Teams don't have to totally focus on beating Gorebyss to the point where they become unable to deal with other Pokemon. Gorebyss is a centralizing Pokemon. But centralizing is not broken.
Yeah to be perfectly honest I'm a very "ban-happy" individual in OU and I don't consider Gorebyss broken. Centralizing, sure, but I've actually been swept by him very infrequently. Priority puts him back in his place rather quickly, Rotom-s can outspeed (as can many other fast mons with a scarf), and at the end of the day he's too weak with White Herb and too frail with Life Orb. I see him as defining the NU metagame, but I don't see how he's any better than the myriad of any things that are likely to pop up in his absence. I mean, every day on the ladder I see something reaaallly good that I just cannot prepare for, like Zangoose.
This brings me into my next argument. Part of the reason that I'm so ban-happy in OU is that a huge crux of my argument tends to be "the meta would be better off without x", and I simply don't think that's the case to Gorebyss. Again, there is a LOT of threatening stuff in NU, and really the centralization of the tier is a blessing to me since I don't have to worry about being swept by underrated mon x every time I hop on the ladder. I think Gorebyss is healthy for the metagame, but hey I'm open to suggestions.
This brings me into my next argument. Part of the reason that I'm so ban-happy in OU is that a huge crux of my argument tends to be "the meta would be better off without x", and I simply don't think that's the case to Gorebyss. Again, there is a LOT of threatening stuff in NU, and really the centralization of the tier is a blessing to me since I don't have to worry about being swept by underrated mon x every time I hop on the ladder. I think Gorebyss is healthy for the metagame, but hey I'm open to suggestions.
With Stealth Rock up, Swellow probably won't last that long thanks to Brave Bird recoil and status for Guts boost. Basically, what you're saying is you don't want to have a scarfer just because it's weak to Stealth Rock therefore it's bad? Like I said if you want to keep Regirock alive then go sac something as it uses Shell Smash/Surf then you bring in a fast Pokemon to revenge kill. If it uses Surf as you switch in your death fodder, just bring in a faster Pokemon that is not weak to Stealth Rock. If it uses Shell Smash, let your Pokemon die then you revenge kill it by bringing in your scarfer. That's what I'm trying to say.
Man making a stall team is tough, there's only a select few Pokemon who can counter Absol, Gorebyss, Magmortar etc so there's not exactly any choice. Plus there's a severe lack of choice when it comes to spikers. I tested Omanyte for a bit but the only things it doesn't fear are the birds and they have U-turn :( Looks like it's back to Garbodor...
Orcinus Duo
Banned deucer.
Mag isn't broken at all. Specially defensive flareon laughs in its face.
That being said, I think the meta game is fairly healthy as it is (although byss does force me to carry rotom-s, which I normally wouldn't)
Sawk bloody murders everything.
That being said, I think the meta game is fairly healthy as it is (although byss does force me to carry rotom-s, which I normally wouldn't)
Sawk bloody murders everything.
Double01
Hate it or love it the under dog's on top
Ya losing roselia really sucked for nu stall. It could tak an ice beam from +2 gorebyss while ko back with giga drain. Also it was the best spiker/t spiker in nu for stall. It's hardly even worth running t spikes anymore due to u having to run garbodor or whirlipede(lol). Avira has still managed to make a very good stall team even with the lost of crucial roles. At least alomomola stayed to check those nasty birds.
I know this has been mentioned numerous times already, but I'm going to bring this up again. Absol is one of, if not the biggest threat in the tier. It holds the games most powerful priority move, even out powering Extremekiller in Ubers, and can totally decimate teams with just a simple Swords Dance set. Absol can easily force switches with the threat of its Sucker Punch and can easily setup a Swords Dance, after that, its almost game over. Anything that resists Dark can be destroyed by Superpower. Even bulky walls can fall to the common critical hits that come from Night Slash + Super Luck.
Not only is Absol a great sweeper, it is also the best revenge killer in the tier, it can KO every top threat in the metagame. -1 Gorebyss, Magmortar, Swellow etc all fall to Absol's Sucker Punch.
I'd like others opinions on this, but Absol might be too much for this metagame to handle
Not only is Absol a great sweeper, it is also the best revenge killer in the tier, it can KO every top threat in the metagame. -1 Gorebyss, Magmortar, Swellow etc all fall to Absol's Sucker Punch.
I'd like others opinions on this, but Absol might be too much for this metagame to handle
The thing is prediction works both ways, you could easily predict their Sub and Night Slash. Tbh, Substitute is no where near as prevalent in NU compared to other tiers, there are few Subpunchers and the only ones that can consistently beat Absol are ones such as Jynx who has a sleep move.
A previous teambat was just an example of how powerful Absol is, it resulted in a clean 5-0 sweep, the only one ever, despite the common usage if powerhouses such as Gorebyss, Magmortar and Swellow in the teambats.
Of course Absol does have its counters, but so does every other threat. However, what Absol does, is it totally suppresses Offense playstyles and it doesnt care how fast the opponent is.
A previous teambat was just an example of how powerful Absol is, it resulted in a clean 5-0 sweep, the only one ever, despite the common usage if powerhouses such as Gorebyss, Magmortar and Swellow in the teambats.
Of course Absol does have its counters, but so does every other threat. However, what Absol does, is it totally suppresses Offense playstyles and it doesnt care how fast the opponent is.
Minor nitpick, Swellow barely ever uses Brave Bird, it uses Facade, although the point about Stealth Rock is true; if Swellow already switched in on SR once, there's a quarter of its health, and if it runs away to come back in later it will be at 50% the next time you see it along with having to start taking Toxic/Burn damage.
Still threatening, in fact it might still be able to take one of your weakened Pokemon down before it dies, but like everyone in this thread should no by now, FUCKYEAHABSOL (or similar Pokemon with good priority) could easily Sucker-Punch the variants without Protect, while forcing the ones that do use Protect to either A) Protect and take more Toxic/Burn damage, or B) switch out and lose even more health the next time they want back in. Kind of a hypothetical situation I guess, but I think it's a very realistic example.
What most people haven't really gotten yet is that Sunny Day teams are a great way to counter most of the things currently popular in the metagame.
That +2 Spe Gorebyss gotcha down? My buddy Mr. Specs Exeggutor with a Chlorophyll boost'll help you out. What's that? They have a SpDef tank that somehow managed to live through Eggy's assaults? My buddy SD Victreebel will ram his Leaf Blade into their fat pink assets. Something you can't OHKO? Both those bros got Sleep Powder, and ain't nothin' down here gonna take a Sleep Powder and hit you back. Need some Spikes? My pal Maractus can set 'em up, along with gettin' some Growth in if you need him to smack something that's stupid enough to think they can set up on her like any other Spiker down here. Like Fire? Well damn, you can spam Ole' Maggie's Fire Blast in the Sun and outright vaporize half the metagame. Boss.
All terrible humor aside, I really do believe that Sun is a valuable asset that people are just ignoring in this round (Sun being ignored, what's new right?). There are plenty of things that can summon the Sun without getting killed like Mesprit, the Pranksters, and even Golem if you want to abuse Sturdy. There are plenty of Pokemon to abuse it, as stated above. There are plenty of common metagame choices that lose something because of it (Dry Skin on Jynx, Water moves being weakened on Gorebyss, Sawk running into Grass/Poison or Grass/Psychic types that can take a few hits from him, etc.).
C'mon guys, try it out for me. People have been saying Sun was going to be a force to be reckoned with since the tier shifts, and nobody has actually talked about using it except for a few of us. If you're really willing to use Grass Gem Power Whip Lickilicky, Shelmet, Mantine, Shelmet, Tentacool, Shelmet, and Sap Sipper Marill, what's so gimmicky and unattractive about Sunny Day Offense?
Edit: In case you guys didn't get the implied Chlorophyll on all the Grass types I mentioned, they have Chlorophyll. Cash.
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