np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Purple Haze - Hoopa-U is now banned

[Siggu]

Too bad FB is unreliable and terrible to spam, same for CB Gunk Shot which was mentioned by someone previously. Mandi is not the perfect counter but it is reliable enough, move on

A 51% chance to survive (36% vs Banded Gunk Shot) does not scream "reliable enough" to me.

Better than other cases, however.

 

[BlueLobster]

Should be noted that Specs Hoopa-U also has the option of running Trick over Thunderbolt, and Mandibuzz itself is heavily crippled by it. The con to this is losing power(which someone is bound to use as a counter argument to say that this point is invalid), but effectively invalidating a defensive Pokemon has its uses; not just for Hoopa-U, but the rest of its teammates.

So really, you don't even HAVE to gamble with Focus Blast against Mandibuzz if that's such a problem. Proper support can compensate for Hoopa-U's now reduced power as is.

Not to mention trick allows you to offload your specs, allowing you to switch moves when you don't need the power anymore. That also mitigates the 'issue' people were bringing up about immunities (which is a moot point as there are so many other sets that aren't choice locked).

 

[Nash.]

Too bad FB is unreliable and terrible to spam, same for CB Gunk Shot which was mentioned by someone previously. Mandi is not the perfect counter but it is reliable enough, move on. Not saying this is enough to sate Hoopa is not broken (I indeed think its not broken for other reasons mainly)

Relying on focus blast to miss isn't reliable . Even the people of the anti-ban side can agree that the switchins to hoopa are very limited or none at all. The area that should be discussed is if it is overcentralizing , or if it broken , or if it is too good in the current meta. The past page or so have brought some bad arguments (not many but the obvious smh ones) . While the first few pages have shown very good arguments from both the anti-ban and ban side . Niche cores and relying on miss are not reliable counters or are not viable against the majority of the tier.

 

[bludz]

Holy shit can we stop arguing about counters? The basic premise here has already been established, no point in beating a dead horse. There are plenty of other topics that can be used to discuss whether or not you feel Hoopa is broken or not, so please, lets move on from this relentlessly rehashed argument.

 

[XLR87T3]

How can something this slow and this frail with such a terrible typing be considered anything more than a nuisance to all non-stall teams? Stall is literally the only argument Hoopa-U has against it now, because it has been established that having zero counters does not necessarily make a pokemon broken. 9/10 times it's going to be choice-locked & spamming STABs Psyshock & Dark Pulse, and only occasionally using its coverage moves (Focus Miss & Thunderbolt) on what would be super-effective hits (or an obvious switch into one). In that sense, Hoopa is very predictable. Theoretically, it can use [insert moves] instead of what I have mentioned, but the most common set is what we should be discussing. Of course, you usually have to sack a pokemon if Hoopa outspeeds it, but that just means something faster than base 80 speed can come in and threaten it. Hoopa 2HKOs almost everything slower than it, but gets OHKOd by almost anything faster than it & physical. At only base 80 speed, that's incredibly balanced in the non-Hoopa-U's favor. Besides Pursuit & Sucker Punch decimating Hoopa-U's HP, it needs teammates that can tank a U-Turn, tank Gale Wings, reflect Thunderwave, tank/reflect Prankster, tank any physical attack, since its most powerful stab (Hyperspace Fury) lowers its defense. People act like this is the first time a non-Uber pokemon actually needs its opponent to be faster to be defeated. Scary on paper, but surprisingly common. I already listed a number of examples in my previous post, and anymore would be overkill.

If something can be revenged so incredibly easy, by such a wide variety of options, what's really the reason Hoopa-U is so OP other than "Hurr durr, no switch-ins"? The extinction of stall is understandable, but some have mentioned its ability to use both physical and special moves. The fact is, the physical Choice Band set actually has a few counters, which is why it's not worth mentioning. It sucks compared to the special set, since Hoopa-U was still tolerable until you could no longer just stick a Mega Aggron or Dragonite in, forcing you to revenge kill.

All that aside, Hoopa-U isn't overcentralized. I didn't see any increase of obscure Pokemon being used for the sole purpose of killing Hoopa, nor did I see many teams that consists mostly of specific Pokemon and moves centered around its ability to defeat Hoopa. I actually found relatively unchanged teams. Stall has decreased, but all other playstyles have increased. We still got all the typical OU Pokemon we see all the time (Talonflame, Conkeldurr, Lando-T, ect). I don't think that is a bad thing. I never felt the need to really fear for Hoopa-U when teambuilding, since again I just throw out something faster and Hoopa either switches out, dies, or get paralyzed. What more needs to be said?

 

[Eoin482]

How can something this slow and this frail with such a terrible typing be considered anything more than a nuisance to all non-stall teams? Stall is literally the only argument Hoopa-U has against it now, because it has been established that having zero counters does not necessarily make a pokemon broken. 9/10 times it's going to be choice-locked & spamming STABs Psyshock & Dark Pulse, and only occasionally using its coverage moves (Focus Miss & Thunderbolt) on what would be super-effective hits (or an obvious switch into one). In that sense, Hoopa is very predictable. Theoretically, it can use [insert moves] instead of what I have mentioned, but the most common set is what we should be discussing. Of course, you usually have to sack a pokemon if Hoopa outspeeds it, but that just means something faster than base 80 speed can come in and threaten it. Hoopa 2HKOs almost everything slower than it, but gets OHKOd by almost anything faster than it & physical. At only base 80 speed, that's incredibly balanced in the non-Hoopa-U's favor. Besides Pursuit & Sucker Punch decimating Hoopa-U's HP, it needs teammates that can tank a U-Turn, tank Gale Wings, reflect Thunderwave, tank/reflect Prankster, tank any physical attack, since its most powerful stab (Hyperspace Fury) lowers its defense. People act like this is the first time a non-Uber pokemon actually needs its opponent to be faster to be defeated. Scary on paper, but surprisingly common. I already listed a number of examples in my previous post, and anymore would be overkill.

If something can be revenged so incredibly easy, by such a wide variety of options, what's really the reason Hoopa-U is so OP other than "Hurr durr, no switch-ins"? The extinction of stall is understandable, but some have mentioned its ability to use both physical and special moves. The fact is, the physical Choice Band set actually has a few counters, which is why it's not worth mentioning. It sucks compared to the special set, since Hoopa-U was still tolerable until you could no longer just stick a Mega Aggron or Dragonite in, forcing you to revenge kill.

All that aside, Hoopa-U isn't overcentralized. I didn't see any increase of obscure Pokemon being used for the sole purpose of killing Hoopa, nor did I see many teams that consists mostly of specific Pokemon and moves centered around its ability to defeat Hoopa. I actually found relatively unchanged teams. Stall has decreased, but all other playstyles have increased. We still got all the typical OU Pokemon we see all the time (Talonflame, Conkeldurr, Lando-T, ect). I don't think that is a bad thing. I never felt the need to really fear for Hoopa-U when teambuilding, since again I just throw out something faster and Hoopa either switches out, dies, or get paralyzed. What more needs to be said?

Ok first of all the death of an entire playstyle is enough to render a single pokemon unbalanced.
Balanced meta = multiple forms of team being viable.
Viable team = one that does not auto lose to an S rank pokemon, assuming two players of equable skill (and assuming both are at least reasonably decent, because of course anything can happen in the wacky world of low ladder).

In my opinion, and I won't say it's necessarily correct, this makes any and all arguments about Hoopa's effectiveness vs other playstyles obsolete.

You say Hoopa needs a lot of team support to fulfil its potential, because it needs teammates who can tank "U-turn, Gale Wings, Thunder Wave and (Prankster?). Running defensive Landorus-t hardly seems like excessive team support.

As has been said before, it is a brainless sixth pick for teams who need a way to beat stall. However, the support it needs to decimate defensive cores on balance, or even tear holes in HO by getting in on a special attacker, is hardly groundbreaking.

A slow Volt turn core (the aforementioned defensive Landorus-t fits well) allows Hoopa to terrorise plenty of different teams.

Finally, the point about not seeing obscure answers to Hoopa get a rise in usage is wrongheaded for two reasons. As has been reiterated again and again, Specs Hoopa is a very new thing, the meta had little time to adjust. And again (apologies for harking back to counters), defensive teams simply have no reliable answers so I don't know what pokemon you would expect to rise anyway.

 

[Nash.]

How can something this slow and this frail with such a terrible typing be considered anything more than a nuisance to all non-stall teams? Stall is literally the only argument Hoopa-U has against it now, because it has been established that having zero counters does not necessarily make a pokemon broken. 9/10 times it's going to be choice-locked & spamming STABs Psyshock & Dark Pulse, and only occasionally using its coverage moves (Focus Miss & Thunderbolt) on what would be super-effective hits (or an obvious switch into one). In that sense, Hoopa is very predictable. Theoretically, it can use [insert moves] instead of what I have mentioned, but the most common set is what we should be discussing. Of course, you usually have to sack a pokemon if Hoopa outspeeds it, but that just means something faster than base 80 speed can come in and threaten it. Hoopa 2HKOs almost everything slower than it, but gets OHKOd by almost anything faster than it & physical. At only base 80 speed, that's incredibly balanced in the non-Hoopa-U's favor. Besides Pursuit & Sucker Punch decimating Hoopa-U's HP, it needs teammates that can tank a U-Turn, tank Gale Wings, reflect Thunderwave, tank/reflect Prankster, tank any physical attack, since its most powerful stab (Hyperspace Fury) lowers its defense. People act like this is the first time a non-Uber pokemon actually needs its opponent to be faster to be defeated. Scary on paper, but surprisingly common. I already listed a number of examples in my previous post, and anymore would be overkill.

If something can be revenged so incredibly easy, by such a wide variety of options, what's really the reason Hoopa-U is so OP other than "Hurr durr, no switch-ins"? The extinction of stall is understandable, but some have mentioned its ability to use both physical and special moves. The fact is, the physical Choice Band set actually has a few counters, which is why it's not worth mentioning. It sucks compared to the special set, since Hoopa-U was still tolerable until you could no longer just stick a Mega Aggron or Dragonite in, forcing you to revenge kill.

All that aside, Hoopa-U isn't overcentralized. I didn't see any increase of obscure Pokemon being used for the sole purpose of killing Hoopa, nor did I see many teams that consists mostly of specific Pokemon and moves centered around its ability to defeat Hoopa. I actually found relatively unchanged teams. Stall has decreased, but all other playstyles have increased. We still got all the typical OU Pokemon we see all the time (Talonflame, Conkeldurr, Lando-T, ect). I don't think that is a bad thing. I never felt the need to really fear for Hoopa-U when teambuilding, since again I just throw out something faster and Hoopa either switches out, dies, or get paralyzed. What more needs to be said?

There is plenty more to be said. Hoopa has good special bulk so it can take one or two special hits and fire back, which is enough. Hoopa is meant to be a wallbreaker, and most walls are generally slower than hoopa so it has enough to do its job. I understand hoopa isnt amazing versus HO but against fatter teams like balance, semi stall, and stall, Hoopa puts in a lot of pressure that can single handedly destroy these kinds of teams, which a good wallbreaker should do.

You talk about how it can be revenged so easy, but in order to be revenged you have to lose pokemon. So hoopa is already doing its job. and yeah it can be threatened out but so can alot of pokemon, doesnt mean they are any worse or better. you can always send out a pokemon to take that uturn or that bird check or that pokemon to be thunder waved. Prankster i dont know what to say about that since any pokemon can be neutered with relect or light screen support. Its move movepool is so varied that you cant just look at one common moveset because there are many moves it can run viably. Fire punch, hyperspace fury, zen headbutt, ice punch, hp ice, knock off, drain punch, gunk shot, grass knot, trick, focus blast, psyshock, psychic, dark pulse, thunderbolt, nasty plot, calm mind, substitute. Al these moves are competatively viable, make a pokemon that can switch into anyone one of those moves limited, because all of them are possible on a hoopa set to be ran VIABLY. Even if the specs set is popular right now, the band set is almost as good. Even the dread plate set is good to catch the pursuit trappers off guard.

And there is consideration that hoopa is overcentralizing because it forces the fatter teams to use either mandibuzz, or to run a pursuit trapper specifically for hoopa. Yeah for HO teams it isnt that big of a deal since most of the pokemon on the team can outspeed, but the fatter teams they have limited pokemon that usually outseed/can take 2 hits and have recovery (only mandibuzz comes to mind for the latter option, but mandibuzz could also be tricked). So fatter teams are forced to run a hard hitting pursuit trapper or mandibuzz i order to deal with hoopa.

I know this has been said before, but the risk vs reward is pushed so much in hoopas favor. 95% it doesnt need to click any other move but it's stabs to destroy teams, but the two coverage moves it has helps to take out the pokemon is struggles against if need be. If your team is weak to hippo ? run grass knot. if its weak to ferrothorn? run fire punch. If weak to lando/chomp, run hp ice. Its variety of moves and its strong power make it able to take on any pokemon you need it to, and without the use of your mega slot either.

 

[pokemonisfun]

This was a very good point by me (quote below) that was barely answered. I know someone (I would quote you but I can't find your post, forgive me there are a lot of them) mentioned that it's ridiculous to say there is no HO in Advance.

Fine have the point. Are you going to argue there was HO in gen 2? Or stall was viable in gen5 Uu? Stall I know as for certain was by far the weakest playstyle in gen5 UU. But nobody (except me and a few others probably) tried to get Togekiss banned because of it.

At a certain point we have to acknowledge that game freak is shifting the game by introducing new Pokemon and mechanics and the games evolution may mean even entire playstyles are no longer viable. How about this: could you use TR offense in gen 3? You can call me idiotic for asking but it's a fair point - game freak creates entire new play styles and we accept that, we should also accept if they are giving us clear signs they want to end old playstyles.

To have an honest discussion we should be allowed to say "stalls time is over" and not be held back by people who insist for whatever reason metagame diversity must include stall. For the record I love stall and I don't think it's time is over and I do think hoopa should be banned, but I don't like this metagame diversity argument.

If metagame diversity is so important then why aren't we complaining about lack of HO in Adv - HO was really "invented" with set up sweepers in DPP. A question we need to ask and answer is at what point do we accept gamefreak's decisions in making tiering policy - they are the ones creating monsters regularly with 150+ base offenses and boosting moves, not smogon tiering policy.

 

[Siggu]

At a certain point we have to acknowledge that game freak is shifting the game by introducing new Pokemon and mechanics and the games evolution may mean even entire playstyles are no longer viable. How about this: could you use TR offense in gen 3? You can call me idiotic for asking but it's a fair point - game freak creates entire new play styles and we accept that, we should also accept if they are giving us clear signs they want to end old playstyles.

To have an honest discussion we should be allowed to say "stalls time is over" and not be held back by people who insist for whatever reason metagame diversity must include stall. For the record I love stall and I don't think it's time is over and I do think hoopa should be banned, but I don't like this metagame diversity argument.

Except Game Freak's official metagame has been Doubles since the Wobbuffet "fiasco" in Gen III (Hence why the game got much faster-paced since Gen IV, and why several Pokemon that were broken in singles are not in doubles).

Stall's viability weakening since Gen IV is just a coincidence.

 

[Aberforth]

What? There is HO in gsc. Boom offense, JoltWak, ext.

And what game freak introduces is irrelevant. They introduced Aegislash, Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Lucario too, should we unban them? No.

 

[Saria]

I don't see how Hoopa's brokeness has anything to do with BW UU, but stall was indeed viable and fairly reliable in that meta. I could elaborate on that, but there's not point so just check some of the replays here:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-5-logs-replays.3497301/

finals was won with stall, for example

 

[AM]

Ok I think after numerous posts and with Hikari being what I assume is maybe the 3rd or 4th person to correct people we need to stop using old gen comparisons because this suspect isn't catered to an old gen mentality, philosophy, or to be using certain old gen mechanics to just throw comparisons around. It's clearly a gen 6 suspect and if you want something to go off of use this, along with some more concrete evidence such as tournament performance, SPL is the obvious one.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ous-tiering-policy-framework-read-and-understand-this.3552154/

This seems to be ignored a lot, which is understandable to an extent, but it clears up some of the terminology people like to throw around without a second thought. This is a Gen 6 suspect test, treat your stance as such.

And for the love of whoever you believe in suspects are catered to a general perception of balance in the tiers metagame not to save a playstyle in this imaginary triangle of playstyles of offense, balance, and stall, which is already so painful to keep referencing stall as the focal point. It's gotten to the point where peoples views are so focused on the stall aspect they're failing to see any big picture with the entirety of the metagame as a whole.

I will be voting ban without a question (labeling the term guessing with the word "prediction" isn't really convincing btw) for many of the reasons already stated by guys such as nails and bludz, but yes I think using the BW Kyurem or Hydreigon comparisons and posts where players have to correct the individual not understanding a metagame they're referencing need to stop.

 

[Reymedy]

What needs to stop is this retarded "HoopaU beats stall" assumption that is being thrown around for what, 18 pages and 5 hundreds posts.
Like what in the blue hell is that. It just blows my mind on so many levels I don't even know where to start.

HoopaU is a WALLBREAKER.
Now google that or search the definition here, but if you're unable to know the difference between this and a stallbreaker then you should probably consider not posting anymore in here and lurk a tad.
And anyway, are you guys silly ? Do you realise that like every damn stall has a trapper now (and like almost all of them had one in Gothitelle before).
Your HoopaU won't break any stall. Period. If you're naive enough to believe that, then I'll laugh my ass off as you'll get at best a 1 for 1 before a Tyranitar Scarf, a lame Dugtrio Sash or some random Weavile traps it. And I mean, a 1 for 1 is often alright for a wallbreaker in a stall matchup but you have to keep in mind that it's the stall player who gets to choose what to offer you in exchange of your HoopaU. On top of that, it can't just be enough so quit thinking HoopaU is the OU gatekeeper of Stalls.
Like every freaking suspect you got the same arguments. You ban Landorus, people go "Oh noo, the mighty balance of Stall vs Offense is now broken!!!" and nothing happens actually. Literally. Till Gothitelle becomes way too cancerous. Then you ban it "Damn Stall unplayable". And now it's all over again the same farce.
Aren't you tired sometimes of being so silly. I read this kind of arguments since I started contributing to tiering, so basically since BW2, and they always have been missing the point so much it's not even funny. Why is it so hard for some people to step back, look at things from a strictly competitive point of view and not have a short memory.
You need to realise that Stall is anti-metagame by default, because it's about walling specific threats that are popular. Why popular ? Because virtually dealing with everything in the game is impossible, no matter how many HoopaU you ban.

So yea to sum-up some key points before you write another post that makes no sense :
- HoopaU does NOT beat Stall.
- A reactive playstyle's viability - in a metagame where several hundreds of Pokémons and several billions of sets are playable - does not depend on one Pokémon.


With that said.
I'll vote ban. I won't really explain why too much because it's been like 5 suspects that I've been saying things on top of things and at this point it's only the logical next step that I'm taking.
Anyway I don't know if people voting no ban are expecting game freak to change the number of Pokémons per team to 8, but it's going to be required if OU keeps on receiving retarded Pokémons you can't possibly deal with unless packing one or two specific answers. You have literally no breathing room in this tier, it's quite tiring at this point. And if you think about it for one second, you'll realise that the less breathing room, the less creativity, the less originality and the less diversity you can have in a tier unless you willingly give up on covering some of the main threats. Sadly, that's what has been the best approach in my opinion in the current metagame lately. Trying to cover common threats is not even close to being possible, and only jeopardizes your team's ability to create a winning scenario. I wish more things were taken away, I swear this could be a really great metagame given all the options, but these are just overshadowed by dumb Pokémons that feel plain unfair and too punishing to play against when not packing the perfect answer.

 

[Eoin482]

From the tiering policy framework:

"With optimal teambuilding skills, the pool of options (Pokemon, moves, items) present in the tier should allow you to build the different team-archetypes at least decently, and offer a solution in battle to a large majority of the principal threats of the metagame."

This is the point people are touching on when saying that Hoopa killing defensive team-archetypes is throwing off the balance of the tier as a whole.

"There is also the important point to note that team matchup is only an issue if there is an extraordinarily low chance to win from the get go.

1. This means that even if the better skilled player made the right plays, he lost.
2. Team matchup is only a concern if no matter what the better player did, he had zero or an extremely low chance of winning."

I believe it has been demonstrated sufficiently that Hoopa ticks this box in particular team matchups.

 

[Eoin482]

What needs to stop is this retarded "HoopaU beats stall" assumption that is being thrown around for what, 18 pages and 5 hundreds posts.
Like what in the blue hell is that. It just blows my mind on so many levels I don't even know where to start.

HoopaU is a WALLBREAKER.
Now google that or search the definition here, but if you're unable to know the difference between this and a stallbreaker then you should probably consider not posting anymore in here and lurk a tad.
And anyway, are you guys silly ? Do you realise that like every damn stall has a trapper now (and like almost all of them had one in Gothitelle before).
Your HoopaU won't break any stall. Period. If you're naive enough to believe that, then I'll laugh my ass off as you'll get at best a 1 for 1 before a Tyranitar Scarf, a lame Dugtrio Sash or some random Weavile traps it. And I mean, a 1 for 1 is often alright for a wallbreaker in a stall matchup but you have to keep in mind that it's the stall player who gets to choose what to offer you in exchange of your HoopaU. On top of that, it can't just be enough so quit thinking HoopaU is the OU gatekeeper of Stalls.
Like every freaking suspect you got the same arguments. You ban Landorus, people go "Oh noo, the mighty balance of Stall vs Offense is now broken!!!" and nothing happens actually. Literally. Till Gothitelle becomes way too cancerous. Then you ban it "Damn Stall unplayable". And now it's all over again the same farce.
Aren't you tired sometimes of being so silly. I read this kind of arguments since I started contributing to tiering, so basically since BW2, and they always have been missing the point so much it's not even funny. Why is it so hard for some people to step back, look at things from a strictly competitive point of view and not have a short memory.
You need to realise that Stall is anti-metagame by default, because it's about walling specific threats that are popular. Why popular ? Because virtually dealing with everything in the game is impossible, no matter how many HoopaU you ban.

So yea to sum-up some key points before you write another post that makes no sense :
- HoopaU does NOT beat Stall.
- A reactive playstyle's viability - in a metagame where several hundreds of Pokémons and several billions of sets are playable - does not depend on one Pokémon.


With that said.
I'll vote ban. I won't really explain why too much because it's been like 5 suspects that I've been saying things on top of things and at this point it's only the logical next step that I'm taking.
Anyway I don't know if people voting no ban are expecting game freak to change the number of Pokémons per team to 8, but it's going to be required if OU keeps on receiving retarded Pokémons you can't possibly deal with unless packing one or two specific answers. You have literally no breathing room in this tier, it's quite tiring at this point. And if you think about it for one second, you'll realise that the less breathing room, the less creativity, the less originality and the less diversity you can have in a tier unless you willingly give up on covering some of the main threats. Sadly, that's what has been the best approach in my opinion in the current metagame lately. Trying to cover common threats is not even close to being possible, and only jeopardizes your team's ability to create a winning scenario. I wish more things were taken away, I swear this could be a really great metagame given all the options, but these are just overshadowed by dumb Pokémons that feel plain unfair and too punishing to play against when not packing the perfect answer.

I don't know what kind of stall you've been running, but the team's I tend to see use walls, so a wallbreaker that 2hkos the entire tier with one set is bad news.

The trapping argument assumes sub optimal play on the Hoopa players behalf, and also relies totally on the assumption Hoopa is choice locked.

Edited: because I don't want to clog the thread.

I don't know if this point has been touched on as yet, but I think it is important to consider the practical effect of Pursuit trappers being the primary answer defensive teams have vs Hoopa.

Just as there are completely viable strategies like slow Volt-turn that increase Hoopa's effect on more offensive teams, there are pokemon that can be paired with it to severely exploit the reliance on Pursuit trapping to kill Hoopa.

For a whole host of terrifying setup sweepers, the ability to come in on something like Scarfed Tyranitar while it is locked into Pursuit is a godsend. Anything with enough raw power to tear down the two Unaware pokemon while unboosted (think mega Pinsir) can guarantee itself a free Swords Dance, Substitute or whatever it needs to most effectively sweep.

Since Hoopa has the incredible ability to pick its own set of checks and counters due to its incredible movepool, the list of sweepers that pair well with it and exploit Pursuit is very diverse and extremely threatening.

 

[Norne]

I don't know what kind of stall you've been running, but the team's I tend to see use walls, so a wallbreaker that 2hkos the entire tier with one set is bad news.

The trapping argument assumes sub optimal play on the Hoopa players behalf, and also relies totally on the assumption Hoopa is choice locked.

Edited: because I don't want to clog the thread.

I don't know if this point has been touched on as yet, but I think it is important to consider the practical effect of Pursuit trappers being the primary answer defensive teams have vs Hoopa.

Just as there are completely viable strategies like slow Volt-turn that increase Hoopa's effect on more offensive teams, there are pokemon that can be paired with it to severely exploit the reliance on Pursuit trapping to kill Hoopa.

For a whole host of terrifying setup sweepers, the ability to come in on something like Scarfed Tyranitar while it is locked into Pursuit is a godsend. Anything with enough raw power to tear down the two Unaware pokemon while unboosted (think mega Pinsir) can guarantee itself a free Swords Dance, Substitute or whatever it needs to most effectively sweep.

Since Hoopa has the incredible ability to pick its own set of checks and counters due to its incredible movepool, the list of sweepers that pair well with it and exploit Pursuit is very diverse and extremely threatening.

I have always partnered Hoopa U with lopunny, merely because of batton pass giving me a free turn whenever the lopunny check would come in on hazard stack offense.

But yes unless your name is LO weavile pursuit will often give momentum away with stupid ease to wathever set up sweeper comes in handy, it's like pursuit trapping a latios only to realize there is a gyarados on the other side and you gave it a free turn. Pursuit does come with it's costs and as said before if Hoopa U Koing something and is pursuit trapped, welp it already did it's job and now the Hoopa U user not only gets momentum but has a defensive check either so maimed it can't do a thing for the rest of the match or straight up dead with a pursuit user in front buying you a free turn. Think of it like sacking a Pokemon to a likely u turn, you gain the switch in initiative so it isn't a horrible trade off.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Havent been too active in recent months so take my opinion for what it is. But I thought I would just throw in my thoughts on HoopaU.

I think the main argument I have seen for banning it is it "invalidates an entire playstyle!!!(stall)", which just doesnt seem to be the case, while I havent been playing I still ahve seen the ladder and there was plenty of stall near the top. Which there always is because stall is mind numbingly easy to play. I think he is just a good mon to use against stall in the same way weavile is a good mon against offense.

It has no switchins seems to be the other main point, but I find that point entirely reliant on predictions, it just feels like a weak point. Like ok maybe you ran into the hoopa that has thunderbolt and predicted the switch, but is that really happening enough to be relevant? I think the only reason this is brought up is for tournament players anyway, which is still important but maybe hoopa is a bit more powerful in that context. I can see comparisons with greninja except with greninja you almost always were able to fire off two attacks if you forced a switch, whereas hoopa is just disgustingly slow against anythign other than stall.

Bottom line, every game I saw hoopa involved in, it only gets 1-2 safe switchins then fires off a powerful attack deals about 60-70% to something, then is forced out and not likely to make a big impact anymore. I think stall is still perfectly viable, hoopa is just a good mon against it, it doesnt completely invalidate it. KEEP HOOPAU

 

[Eoin482]

Just with regards to Weavile trapping Hoopa, it's a little different to the others since the 50-50 of whether to click Pursuit is not geared in the trappers favour, unlike with Tyranitar.

Dark Pulse chunks Weavile, to the point that it probably only has 1 or 2 LO recoils in it after rocks. 40 power Pursuit doesn't really bother Hoopa, so there is genuine pressure on Weavile to predict it to stay in. Depending on how much chip Weavile has taken throughout the match, this could be the difference between losing it there and then.

I don't mind the idea of Weavile stall per se. However, I feel what it does is reduce your matchup vs Hoopa to a guessing game, rather than providing a genuine answer.

Edit : Sorry the first line is badly worded, clearly Tyranitar does not have a 50- 50 call on whether to click Pursuit. Just Weavile.

 

[MANNAT]

Ok first of all the death of an entire playstyle is enough to render a single pokemon unbalanced.
Balanced meta = multiple forms of team being viable.
Viable team = one that does not auto lose to an S rank pokemon, assuming two players of equable skill (and assuming both are at least reasonably decent, because of course anything can happen in the wacky world of low ladder).

In my opinion, and I won't say it's necessarily correct, this makes any and all arguments about Hoopa's effectiveness vs other playstyles obsolete.

You say Hoopa needs a lot of team support to fulfil its potential, because it needs teammates who can tank "U-turn, Gale Wings, Thunder Wave and (Prankster?). Running defensive Landorus-t hardly seems like excessive team support.

As has been said before, it is a brainless sixth pick for teams who need a way to beat stall. However, the support it needs to decimate defensive cores on balance, or even tear holes in HO by getting in on a special attacker, is hardly groundbreaking.

A slow Volt turn core (the aforementioned defensive Landorus-t fits well) allows Hoopa to terrorise plenty of different teams.

Finally, the point about not seeing obscure answers to Hoopa get a rise in usage is wrongheaded for two reasons. As has been reiterated again and again, Specs Hoopa is a very new thing, the meta had little time to adjust. And again (apologies for harking back to counters), defensive teams simply have no reliable answers so I don't know what pokemon you would expect to rise anyway.

Pursuit trappers on stall stop hoopa from being the death of an entire playstyle, and there isn't really a need to preserve completely fat, passive teams that just sit there as long as the stall playstyle is preserved. Hoopa does need a lot of team support since it requires at least a good slow volturning core and a physical punisher along with hazard removal to stop rocks and spikes wearing you down to the point that you can't tank powerful special hits anymore, which takes up 4 slots right there. You can argue that these are good things that a lot of offensive teams have, but volturn isn't needed on offense at all if you don't have enough moveslots, and there are plenty of HO builds with like taunt azelf that can more than get by just by applying offensive pressure to the opposing team, so this need for team support is certainly still something that you have to consider since Hoopa really isn't great in a vacuum and requires a good team around it to be effective. This can be said about pretty much any mon in the metagame, so that's not really a good reasoning for banning it. It isn't a brainless sixth pick for stall-weak teams at all since without proper support, it's pretty much 5-6 vs offensive teams. You are exaggerating how splashable Hoopa is because it's honestly hard to fit onto offensive teams from a teambuilding standpoint these days and lando-t doesn't even synergize that well with hoopa since it has a hard time dealing with water attackers like keld and shit just like hoopa does.

 

[HailFall]

Pursuit trappers on stall stop hoopa from being the death of an entire playstyle, and there isn't really a need to preserve completely fat, passive teams that just sit there as long as the stall playstyle is preserved. Hoopa does need a lot of team support since it requires at least a good slow volturning core and a physical punisher along with hazard removal to stop rocks and spikes wearing you down to the point that you can't tank powerful special hits anymore, which takes up 4 slots right there. You can argue that these are good things that a lot of offensive teams have, but volturn isn't needed on offense at all if you don't have enough moveslots, and there are plenty of HO builds with like taunt azelf that can more than get by just by applying offensive pressure to the opposing team, so this need for team support is certainly still something that you have to consider since Hoopa really isn't great in a vacuum and requires a good team around it to be effective.

Nearly every team has all of those things except voltturn so im not sure what the point is. Even though hoopa appreciates volttrun support it isnt exactly a necessity. Also no one is arguing that hoopa is splashable. its something you have to build around but its just so good that it makes up for that with the sheer power it brings to the table. The problem is that hoopa is so easy to support with the right partners and it quite simply shits all over everything slower than it.

This can be said about pretty much any mon in the metagame, so that's not really a good reasoning for banning it.

not even bothering to actually rebut this because its such a blatantly false assessment of hoopa and the metagame as a whole; regardless of your position on the ban you should at least be able to realize hoopa is not a standard ou mon by any means

It isn't a brainless sixth pick for stall-weak teams at all since without proper support, it's pretty much 5-6 vs offensive teams. You are exaggerating how splashable Hoopa is because it's honestly hard to fit onto offensive teams from a teambuilding standpoint these days and lando-t doesn't even synergize that well with hoopa since it has a hard time dealing with water attackers like keld and shit just like hoopa does.

yes, we all know that it isnt exactly splashable. thats part of the reason it has such low usage despite fucking up everything not outsped by it. Lando-t IS a good hoopa partner, as it sponges physical hits and provides u-turn support. "but theyre both weak to keld!!!" itnt exactly an issue because another good partner, latios, can deal with keld AND fill another one of those roles you said hoopa needs, hazard removal.

 

[MANNAT]

Nearly every team has all of those things except voltturn so im not sure what the point is. Even though hoopa appreciates volttrun support it isnt exactly a necessity. Also no one is arguing that hoopa is splashable. its something you have to build around but its just so good that it makes up for that with the sheer power it brings to the table. The problem is that hoopa is so easy to support with the right partners and it quite simply shits all over everything slower than it.



lol nice one dude, youre pretty funny (not even bothering to actually rebut this because its such a blatantly false assessment of hoopa and the metagame as a whole; regardless of your position on the ban you should at least be able to realize hoopa is not a standard ou mon by any means).



yes, we all know that it isnt exactly splashable. thats part of the reason it has such low usage despite fucking up everything not outsped by it. Lando-t IS a good hoopa partner, as it sponges physical hits and provides u-turn support. "but theyre both weak to keld!!!" itnt exactly an issue because another good partner, latios, can deal with keld AND fill another one of those roles you said hoopa needs, hazard removal.

If you wanna talk to me in this tone then i can do the same back lol.

"hoopa's good, just build your entire team around it lol" yeah no dip sherlock, most S-Rank mons like keld and clef are really good with team support. "it's bodies everything slower than it lol" CM Clef with flamethrower bodies a ton of stall teams as long as amoong is weakened or out of the picture, and specs keld bodybags basically every mon on stall bar the fat grass types, and crawdaunt pushes stall into a bodybad, so it's not something unique to hoopa. Hoopa isn't like other S-Rankers in the traditional sense, but saying that it's good with proper team support is something that applies to pretty much every sweeper/wallbreaker in the metagame lol. Lando-T isn't a bad hoopa partner persay, but you're overstating their "match made in heaven" synnergy since both share common weaknesses and landot doesnt exactly help with switching into special attackers that hoopa doesnt want to and doesn't take any pressure off of hoopa for checking special attackers like the lati twins and offensive elecs, so it's not exactly the greatest partner. "Latios is a good partner for hoopa because it literally switches into one mon and provides something that the team's gonna end up with anyways lol" :/ that's kinda shit reasoning if you have to waste an entire teamslot just to check one mon lol since role compression is the name of the game when teambuilding, and that doesn't sound like good role compression at all rofl.

 

[Eoin482]

If you wanna talk to me in this tone then i can do the same back lol.

"hoopa's good, just build your entire team around it lol" yeah no dip sherlock, most S-Rank mons like keld and clef are really good with team support. "it's bodies everything slower than it lol" CM Clef with flamethrower bodies a ton of stall teams as long as amoong is weakened or out of the picture, and specs keld bodybags basically every mon on stall bar the fat grass types, and crawdaunt pushes stall into a bodybad, so it's not something unique to hoopa. Hoopa isn't like other S-Rankers in the traditional sense, but saying that it's good with proper team support is something that applies to pretty much every sweeper/wallbreaker in the metagame lol. Lando-T isn't a bad hoopa partner persay, but you're overstating their "match made in heaven" synnergy since both share common weaknesses and landot doesnt exactly help with switching into special attackers that hoopa doesnt want to and doesn't take any pressure off of hoopa for checking special attackers like the lati twins and offensive elecs, so it's not exactly the greatest partner. "Latios is a good partner for hoopa because it literally switches into one mon and provides something that the team's gonna end up with anyways lol" :/ that's kinda shit reasoning if you have to waste an entire teamslot just to check one mon lol since role compression is the name of the game when teambuilding, and that doesn't sound like good role compression at all rofl.

"Using Latios on offense to check Keldeo is poor role compression."

One of the things people put forward to beat Hoopa was literally Dugtrio.

 

[HailFall]

If you wanna talk to me in this tone then i can do the same back lol.

sorry, the wording of my post was a bit agressive, ill try to be less so in the future.

"hoopa's good, just build your entire team around it lol" yeah no dip sherlock, most S-Rank mons like keld and clef are really good with team support. "it's bodies everything slower than it lol" CM Clef with flamethrower bodies a ton of stall teams as long as amoong is weakened or out of the picture, and specs keld bodybags basically every mon on stall bar the fat grass types, and crawdaunt pushes stall into a bodybad, so it's not something unique to hoopa.

Keld and clef only break stall if certain prerequisites are met before sending them out. These conditionals exist to a far smaller degree for hoopa. Daunt is pretty dead weight against playstyles besides stall unlike the other three because its so hard so set up and water resists can usually destroy it.

Hoopa isn't like other S-Rankers in the traditional sense, but saying that it's good with proper team support is something that applies to pretty much every sweeper/wallbreaker in the metagame lol.

My point is that the level of utility hoopa provides to teams built around it is insanely greater than that of a lot of other mons you really need to build around.

Lando-T isn't a bad hoopa partner persay, but you're overstating their "match made in heaven" synnergy since both share common weaknesses and landot doesnt exactly help with switching into special attackers that hoopa doesnt want to and doesn't take any pressure off of hoopa for checking special attackers like the lati twins and offensive elecs, so it's not exactly the greatest partner. "Latios is a good partner for hoopa because it literally switches into one mon and provides something that the team's gonna end up with anyways lol" :/ that's kinda shit reasoning if you have to waste an entire teamslot just to check one mon lol since role compression is the name of the game when teambuilding, and that doesn't sound like good role compression at all rofl.

Im not trying to build a functional hoopa team im giving an example that hoopa has multiple common, very viable partners that work well with it (though honestly i dont think what i mentioned is a bad place to start).

 

[MANNAT]

"Using Latios on offense to check Keldeo is poor role compression."

One of the things people put forward to beat Hoopa was literally Dugtrio.

I'm not the one who made that argument, so it's not relevant to me rofl.

Keld and clef only break stall if certain prerequisites are met before sending them out. These conditionals exist to a far smaller degree for hoopa. Daunt is pretty dead weight against playstyles besides stall unlike the other three because its so hard so set up and water resists can usually destroy it.My point is that the level of utility hoopa provides to teams built around it is insanely greater than that of a lot of other mons you really need to build around. Im not trying to build a functional hoopa team im giving an example that hoopa has multiple common, very viable partners that work well with it (though honestly i dont think what i mentioned is a bad place to start).

Keld literally only needs one mon gone to break stall, the same can be said for hoopa since stall runs pursuit trappers. Clef doesn't even need that mon gone, it just needs it weakened lol. Daunt was just an example to show that other mons were good against stall. The only utility that hoopa provides to teams is pressuring stall, which while is a great niche, isn't something extreme enough to warrant a ban. You were pointing out a potential team, but your team had lati/lando/hoopa/rotom-w already and had a myriad of threats to cover up the last two slots, so you had some work to do lol, even if it was just a framework for a team, you had to be creative with the last two slots and are forced to sacrifice weaknesses to certain threats just because you wanted to sacrifice 4 teamslots just for Hoopa. While this is something that happens with offensive builds from time to time, you can't just discount that this ALWAYS happens when you specifically build AROUND hoopa. If you can name one consistent team that has a reliable way of beating virtually everything in the metagame (bar random shit like sharpedo and bd ches lol) built around Hoopa, with having the proper team support for Hoopa to do well vs offense, then I would be happy to see it.

 

[Eoin482]

Lol sorry way off topic I guess. He asked to see a functional team built around Hoopa and I can't see another way to show that unfortunately.

I'll just have to disagree and say I don't feel fitting Hoopa is a particular strain on more offensive teams, and it is powerful enough as a candidate to build a team around in any case.

Specs Keldeo is great but it is completely incomparable to Hoopa since it has viable switch ins like Venusaur, Amoonguss, Slowbro and Alomomola on defensive teams.