np: ORAS UU Stage 3.2 - Game of Pricks [Pidgeotite voted BL] - See Post #257

[bruno]

I've recently gotten my reqs and I'm voting ban because I feel pidgeot is a nuisance to pretty much every team archetype. Offensive teams have few mons that outspeed it (given its very good speed tier), and even fewer mons that can tank hits from it, given the lack of bulky flying resists in these kinds of teams. I think bulkier teams have more answers to the bird, but that's where another point kicks in: the 30% confusion rate. Florges, the most common special wall in my eyes, is bulky enough to avoid the 3HKO, yet one badly timed confusion + one turn hitting itself results in a florges unable to recover while the opponent sends something that forces the flower out. Stuff like aero (another common mon in balance teams) are even more prone to confusion. I know this is theorymonning and in practice things might work differently (for instance, offensive teams can apply enough pressure vs pidgeot so it can't get free hits, while defensive teams might pack very hard counters), but all in all I feel this metagame would be much better off without the bird.

 

[Tyty307]

Having grinded the ladder up to 2663 coil I think the metagame is better without M Pidgeot. The confusion hacks create a spot where Pidgeot can break his counters with hacks. I don't think confusion by itself is a problem for example Machamp. But the problem with Pidgeot is it's utility. It has a chance to confuse it's walls and if it doesnt work just u-turn out. Which removes the option to double switch. Meaning M Pidgeot gives it's user a good chance to swing the match in a favorable spot which wears on teams. So BAN imo it's just to good.

 

[Doctor Swagmoar]

Although I do not believe M-Pidgeot is "Over-Powered" in the traditional sense of that term, I do agree that it's absence from UU is healthy.

Will be voting BAN

 

[jeronipuff]

High key, Mega Pidge is broken af. Let's start off with seeing how many flying resist there are that are not destroyed by heat-wave... Empoleon, M-Ampharos, Rotom-Heat, (Mega Aero but frailness doesn't appreciate the hits) and I guess you can say Rhyperior. Okay 4 pretty solid counters, but wait you bring them in and get confused- Now what? Now not only is the heat-wave, hurricane combo extremely powerful in UU, the mono attacking hurricane set shreds most teams apart. Refresh+Workup+roost is such a great combo letting Pidge set up on a large portion of the tier. These are not the only sets it can run either some other nice moves it has are defog and u-turn. Obviously Mega-Pidge's decent bulk and strong offensive stats allow all of these sets to work, and in knowing all of this I am voting BAN the bird.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

If I am being honest I find the work up set to be over rated and it doesnt setup on nearly as much as people claim, running u turn is much better imo since pidge already puts so much pressure to switch on the opponent

 

[FaZoLanX]

After recently getting reqs I support the movement to BAN Mega Pidgeot. While there are some viable checks in this meta such as Empoleon or Blissey, the only real definite way to beat the bird is by hoping your opponents finger cramps up from spamming a 110 BP Stab Hurricane with the inability to miss due to No Guard. Hurricanes 30% confuse rate and the 51% chance to confuse after two consecutive Hurricanes matches that of Scald's burn, which most people know 30% means 99%. The confusion hax allow spamming to add to insult by dealing massive damage and allow Pidgeot to stay in verse its counters rather than switching out. Also watching your opponents mon beat the living shit out of itself only adds salt to the wound of a pissed off trainer helplessly losing to an OP mon. While most bird users stop reading their move choices after "Hurricane", Pidgeot's ability to learn Heat Wave for extended coverage (Which ohkos a eviolite doublade after rocks), as well as Roost to restore HP, U-turn to keep momentum by switching through walls it doesn't confuse, and well enough defensive-bulk make it a very overpowered mon in this meta. As for its speed, base 121 makes it one of the fastest in the tiers capping off at 375 when timid. Shits OP cuhh.

 

[Malin]

tbh after reading this entire thread and playing over 200 games, I cant say I didnt find diversity over the ladder

some different teams, of every playstyle, for sure. some mons got a huge increase in usage, specially base Spe 100~115 mons, which are many in this tier, like Infernape, Cobalion, Shaymin, Tentacruel, Galvantula, Heliolisk, Salamence (late game cleaners as bulky and regular DD mence got famous, as did mixed attackers), etc. there are others mons that are directly affected by Mega Pidgeot for example and are amazing in this meta, like Doublade. Besides checking huge threats like Cobalion, Mega Aero and Snorlax, Doublade now have an ez time sweeping late game, since Mega Pidgeot ghost immunity really holded Doublade effectiveness after a few hits lol

still, I don't think Mega Pidgeot is an over centralized mon, since mons like Cobalion, Reuniclus and Doublade, that have a somewhat bad matchup against the bird, were still increasing in usage and were already getting out of RU. for instance, other UU power houses, like Mamoswine and Feraligatr, that were already great in a Mega Pidgeot meta (Mamo were A+ like Mega Pidgeot since it got in this tier, and Feraligatr became S rank before Mega Pidgeot), were now more used than ever. I don't think Mega Pidgeot is an op mon or broken in most senses - he is certainly a threat but I guess we have to deal with some threats. If it wasn't for Hurricane confusion chance, he would be a threat like Feraligatr I guess, but not outright broken.

so I guess it all comes to the point where every singular voting creature thinks are the limits of haxing thru your opponent, which are the main point about Mega Pidgeot. If it's in, I guess it can hax thru said counters, like Florges, Snorlax and Empoleon, without even needing a Work Up set, but in other hand he is a somewhat frail mon, have a hard time switch in and actually fails to OHKO or 2HKO most offensive meta, like Mega Swampert and Mega Aerodactyl, while being easily 2HKO or OHKO in return. If you think the times he haxed thru you went from annoying to a broken mon, go ahead and vote to ban. But if you think there are more problematic haxing mechanics, like Scald, that doesn't receive the same threatment, vote to keep it in this tier. For me, I'm still not sure, for this case, at where this hax limit is, so I will abstain in this suspect test.

 

[DKFirelord]

Mega Pidge only had five real counters when you didn't have those counter it's tuff to beat. As I laddered and got reqs the Meta seemed a lot healthier with the burd in it and just plainly a lot more fun to build teams since you have one less threat to worry about. Voting BAN for sure

 

[Century Express]

I've enjoyed a lot this suspect. Although i've never liked to consider the confusion hax as a good argument, it's simply too hard to ignore, especially when he "shapes" himself almost perfectly in the metagame.

I mean, the UU metagame itself lacks a good amount of reliable Flying-resists, because Mega Pidgeot usually explores a positive aspect against the majority of his checks. Even though Pokémon like Mega Aerodactyl and Rotom-H resists Hurricane reliably, they need to think always about U-Turn + SR damage, or even Confusion + SR scenarios obviously (which applies to his defensive-oriented checks as well, like Empoleon, Porygon2 and Florges), whereas other Pokémon that could serve as great options to Hurricane resists (like M-Aggron, Bronzong), doesn't like to switch in Heat Wave, so the momentum is almost always in favour of the Pidgeot user, because it kinda mixes momentum (especially when it's combined with surprising combinations, like U-Turning to a Toxic Spikes user or Dugtrio) + luck fator, especially coming from a 110 BP move.

I know this argument sounds a bit incoherent when it's applied to similiar scouting scenarios executed by Pokémon like Mega Beedrill or Heliolisk, but the Pidgeot case isn't unidimensional, because you need to think always about a risk | reward possibility whenever you switch, and when you consider to keep a Pokémon that's 2HKO | OHKOed by Hurricane as well, and when these scenarios are combined with the lack of good (non-passive) resists in the tier + really common confusion possibilities, Pidgeot stands itself as a ridiculous threat. It's a bit hard for me to explain completely my reasons in theorymon (and sorry for my terrible english), but the teambuilding in this Suspect became considerably more ~free~ (making Balanced or Bulkier teams not depend so much of a single Flying-resist or a dedicated wall | glue), so i think the metagame is too much better without Mega Pidgeot.

 

[GULLY]

Pidge is broken rn. I don't think its the most broken thing in the world, if uu gets things like zap n other flying checks in the future i can see it coming back easily. I think the meta centralizes around it better than Victini, bc Pidge has more but not fully reliable (due to Bird Scald) checks. Even with there has been way more support for banning Pidge than Tini imo. Ban for now, restest in the near future.

 

[Syncrasy]

Just finished getting reqs and wanted to post my piece on Mega pidgeot, During suspect i like to think of it as " would the tier be more enjoyable if this mon was in it" as i don't like playing this game if its filled with mons that annoying. While laddering i saw a lot less empoleon on the ladder was there was in mega bird meta and a ALOT more stall which i felt benefited with the loss of mega pidgeot.even though I disdain stall as a play style it made playing stall more free. I also got to see some of mons that M bird rendered useless shine like Infernape and Mienshao.I feel the reason why i want Miga Pidgeot to get banned is that it helps more play style playable as Mega bird threaten Balance/Stall teams with its Workup set and HO was annoyed by its hard to switch in flying coverage, and the mons that do resist it have a hard time with the 30% to confuse chance. These reason lead more toward a BAN for mega Pidgeot.

 

[Cheryl.]

So, after playing on the ladder, I've seen the metagame much nicer than before. Fighting and Grass types like Infernape and Tangrowth have beeen given new life without fear of a Hurricane. Stall has become more common now thanks to no Work Up Pidgeot, and although I hate stall, the loss of Pidgeot has opened the gate for what maybe be the next best stallcrusher: SD Pangoro. Overall, the metagame will be better without Pidgeot, so i will be voting ban. bye bye, birdie.

 

[Hogg]

Oh, hey, I guess I haven't put in my two cents.

I'm on my phone, so I'm not going to be able to write a super-detailed post, but after getting multiple alts up to reqs level, I feel like I've played enough on the suspect ladder to decide how I'm going to be voting. I will be voting DO NOT BAN. Pidgeot is easily one of the top 'mons in UU, as good as Salamence or Mega-Aerodactyl and in many ways more threatening than either, but I don't actually think it's unhealthy for the tier. It has to be accounted for in teambuilding, yes, but no more so than Suicune or Mega-Aero or whatever other top threat. I would be very hesitant to call it overly centralizing though. From looking at the May usage stats, the only thing that really stands out is the high Empoleon usage... but Empoleon has always pretty consistently been a top mon in UU (with the possible exception of the times when Zygarde was crapping on the tier, but even then it kept pretty good usage). People have talked about some really niche things like Lickilicky being pulled out as answers, but it's mostly just talk - this isn't the Serp meta, when people were unapologetically running anything with Sap Sipper they could get their grubby little mitts on.

Anyhow, any potential claims of teambuilding centralization directed toward Pidgeot (because OMG, Empoleon and Rotom-H usage rose a couple of clicks) seem balanced to me by the fact that Pidgeot can also aid in teambuilding, by providing more options for balance or offense players that want a fast offensive threat that is actually still decent against bulkier playstyles. It can also help consolidate roles by providing Defog support. That's a good thing in my book - it means more options for players, not fewer.

I went into this suspect with an open mind, because I really didn't have a strong opinion, but for all that people are claiming that this suspect meta is the best thing ever, it doesn't actually feel much fresher than the pre-suspect meta. It's certainly not so much of an improvement that I'm going to vote to ban something I was on the fence about. (Although no Pidge HAS meant I've been able to run physically defensive Empoleon. <3)

So again, Pidgeot is incredibly good, and sometimes incredibly annoying. I'm not going to pretend I haven't said "Fuck Pidgeot" a few times when my Florges or Aero caught a confusion and bopped itself on a Hurricane switch-in. But for all that, I don't think its overall influence on the tier is negative enough to warrant a ban, and I'll be voting to reflect that.

 

[Gene Sp]

I vote ban, it is a mon that centralizes enough it has 4 or 5 counters trustworthy, but due to the fact that it has a powerful stab that never fails and 30 % of confusing it does a very troublesome threat that haxed to his "counters".

 

[canasian]

I'm really bothered by the "only 4 or 5 reliable answers" argument that people have reverted to again in the past few days, because that's not unique to Pidgeot in this tier, and it's not as if those answers are niche or otherwise unviable. There are plenty of reasons to prefer the meta without Pidgeotite, but "ban it because it lacks counters" is a thoughtless argument.

 

[Schpoonman]

"only 4 or 5 reliable answers" is an incomplete thought, and the reason behind a lot of people's problem with Pidgeot. It should be "only 4 or 5 reliable answers until you factor in confusion hax." Scarf Chandelure beats both of Lucario's best sets given a safe switch-in, period. Empoleon and Ampharos can be confused into the dirt.

 

[MegaMasher]

I'm really bothered by the "only 4 or 5 reliable answers" argument that people have reverted to again in the past few days, because that's not unique to Pidgeot in this tier, and it's not as if those answers are niche or otherwise unviable. There are plenty of reasons to prefer the meta without Pidgeotite, but "ban it because it lacks counters" is a thoughtless argument.

there are plenty of checks and counters to Mega Pidgeot, I really don't understand why people are getting their brains worked up over banning it, it isn't an overcentralizing threat! It is a top tier threat but so are Mence and Mega-dactyl! Are we going to exclude the fact that many pokemon can beat it in a 1v1 situation, regardless if it's a check or counter? I've already stated my piece in an earlier post and people called it cherry picking lol well cherry picking or not, 2 things you can't dispute: calcs and the amount of checks and counters it has!

 

[canasian]

No you were definitely cherry-picking calcs and distorting how well certain things fare against Pidgeot; it's just that one could make the same "limited counters" claim about Lucario or Hydreigon (both of which even have the option to run coverage to surprise their counters, which Pidgeot just doesn't really have access to) and nobody's called for them to be banned in ages.

I don't disagree with the fact that confusion has the potential to screw over switch-ins and that's annoying (though not "broken" in my opinion), I stated so the very first time I posted in this thread, but people the past few days (read posts by DKFirelord and TheTrueLegendary further up this page) have stated that they want to ban Pidgeot because they think it "is too powerful/has too good coverage" for this tier which we've long established is blatantly untrue and I don't know why those posters haven't been called out.

 

[MegaMasher]

No you were definitely cherry-picking calcs and distorting how well certain things fare against Pidgeot; it's just that one could make the same "limited counters" claim about Lucario or Hydreigon (both of which even have the option to run coverage to surprise their counters, which Pidgeot just doesn't really have access to) and nobody's called for them to be banned in ages.

I don't disagree with the fact that confusion has the potential to screw over switch-ins and that's annoying (though not "broken" in my opinion), I stated so the very first time I posted in this thread, but people the past few days (read posts by DKFirelord and TheTrueLegendary further up this page) have stated that they want to ban Pidgeot because they think it "is too powerful/has too good coverage" for this tier which we've long established is blatantly untrue and I don't know why those posters haven't been called out.

Can you explain how pointing out counters like; SpDef mega Ampharos, Rotom-Heat, Empoleon, Mega Aerodactyl, Umbreon, Blissey, Florges, Suicune, AV Lax, CurseLax, AV Goodra, AV Dragalge, SpDef Milotic, SpDef Vaproeon, AV Slowking is cherry picking? I can pull up some damage calcs if you wish but I am not going to keep repeating myself until I'm blue in the face over this. I've made my case and people still choose to dispute these counters, which really shouldn't even be up for debating against. Also, if I am cherry picking out counters, then aren't people cherry picking reasons to ban is such as because of No Guard hurricane spam? Sure, 30% confusion is a side effect of it and it can't miss..but neither can stone edge from mega-dactyl, who can SAFELY switch into a hurricane and tear it up, no guard works for BOTH sides. People are so fixated on how 30% can be 99%, which is false because that 30% of a side effect may feel more like 10% or 20% because, by way of luck or hax, the secondary effect may not kick in and even if it does, it may not affect or matter in the end. Anywho, I've made my point and I honestly don't see why it should be banned. I see the reasons why but the reasons not to outweigh the reasons to ban it by quite a bit.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Can you explain how pointing out counters like; SpDef mega Ampharos, Rotom-Heat, Empoleon, Mega Aerodactyl, Umbreon, Blissey, Florges, Suicune, AV Lax, CurseLax, AV Goodra, AV Dragalge, SpDef Milotic, SpDef Vaproeon, AV Slowking is cherry picking? I can pull up some damage calcs if you wish but I am not going to keep repeating myself until I'm blue in the face over this. I've made my case and people still choose to dispute these counters, which really shouldn't even be up for debating against. Also, if I am cherry picking out counters, then aren't people cherry picking reasons to ban is such as because of No Guard hurricane spam? Sure, 30% confusion is a side effect of it and it can't miss..but neither can stone edge from mega-dactyl, who can SAFELY switch into a hurricane and tear it up, no guard works for BOTH sides. People are so fixated on how 30% can be 99%, which is false because that 30% of a side effect may feel more like 10% or 20% because, by way of luck or hax, the secondary effect may not kick in and even if it does, it may not affect or matter in the end. Anywho, I've made my point and I honestly don't see why it should be banned. I see the reasons why but the reasons not to outweigh the reasons to ban it by quite a bit.

Well for one Blissey, Umbreon, Suicune, and Milotic are not counters. WTF is an AV Dragalge?

 

[MegaMasher]

Well for one Blissey, Umbreon, Suicune, and Milotic are not counters. WTF is an AV Dragalge?

Assault Vest Dragalge. Along with Adaptability boosted Dragon and poison Attacks, it's like a free calm mind if the attacks are special.

 

[rs]

So I got reqs like a week ago but I never posted in the thread. But I might as well put my 2 cents in.

Anyway, we can all agree Pidgeot is a top mon, such as a Mega Aerodactyl, Feraligatr, Mamoswine (I still hate this stupid pig), etc.. I went into the suspect not caring whether it would be banned or not because I've honestly never had trouble with it and I used it sometimes and tbh it fits so well on a lot of teams because of its versatility. But lets be real here, almost all of top tier threats fit on a lot of teams. Anyways, I've been reading some of the arguments for ban and in response to the whole needing to prepare for it in team-building, it's like any other threat like Suicune or Salamence, if you don't provide a solid check to those you can just auto-lose..

As Hogg said above, it can also aid in teambuilding as well, with players having access to a strong offensive threat as well as a potential Defogger.. usage spikes in Rotom-H and Empoleon don't matter at all, because they were very solid Pokemon in the first place. There was also no reason to come up with niche mons like the Lickilicky one from UU room, but no one actually pulled through with it, it was never as overcentralizing as Serperior or anything like that. Don't get me wrong, I do find Pidgeot annoying sometimes because of the whole 30% Confusion rate when I switch my wall in, but its pretty much the same as switching into a Body Slam Lax or Scald, which is also annoying but its also part of the game.

I wish I could've written more but I really don't feel like writing any more paragraphs about one Pokemon, but I will be voting DO NOT BAN, just because I feel that overall Mega Pidgeot doesn't have a negative effect on the tier, but I do think a certain reptile definitely does. >_>

 

[MegaMasher]

So I got reqs like a week ago but I never posted in the thread. But I might as well put my 2 cents in.

Anyway, we can all agree Pidgeot is a top mon, such as a Mega Aerodactyl, Feraligatr, Mamoswine (I still hate this stupid pig), etc.. I went into the suspect not caring whether it would be banned or not because I've honestly never had trouble with it and I used it sometimes and tbh it fits so well on a lot of teams because of its versatility. But lets be real here, almost all of top tier threats fit on a lot of teams. Anyways, I've been reading some of the arguments for ban and in response to the whole needing to prepare for it in team-building, it's like any other threat like Suicune or Salamence, if you don't provide a solid check to those you can just auto-lose..

As Hogg said above, it can also aid in teambuilding as well, with players having access to a strong offensive threat as well as a potential Defogger.. usage spikes in Rotom-H and Empoleon don't matter at all, because they were very solid Pokemon in the first place. There was also no reason to come up with niche mons like the Lickilicky one from UU room, but no one actually pulled through with it, it was never as overcentralizing as Serperior or anything like that. Don't get me wrong, I do find Pidgeot annoying sometimes because of the whole 30% Confusion rate when I switch my wall in, but its pretty much the same as switching into a Body Slam Lax or Scald, which is also annoying but its also part of the game.

I wish I could've written more but I really don't feel like writing any more paragraphs about one Pokemon, but I will be voting DO NOT BAN, just because I feel that overall Mega Pidgeot doesn't have a negative effect on the tier, but I do think a certain reptile definitely does. >_>

Exactly, if people are concerned about hurricane for having a 30% chance to confuse..let's take a look at other moves that have a 30% chance at a secondary effect that can also cause annoyances in battle. Hax happen and it's a part of the battle. Some people who are hell bent on banning Mega Pidgeot just need to get over the fact that hax happen and the fact that it is a top tier threat but NOT overcentralizing.

I agree with your statements.

 

[BrothaJdogg]

I'll throw in my 2 cents on Bird Jeezus before things get started,

Overall, I can see where both sides of the argument to ban or not to ban come from. On one hand, M-Pidgeots offensive stats combined with No Gurad Hurricane make it's presence a nightmare for teams, especially once the dedicated special wall has been weakened. On the other hand, Pokes like Rotom-H and (somewhat) Suicune can wall it rather well.

I currently have 5 UU teams built, but the one that I run the most (and so far, have won the most matches with and have used almost exclusively for this suspect test), actually never really had a problem with M-Pidgeot. Best case scenario, I get rocks up BEFORE it comes out and either take it down with a faster mon. Worst case scenario, I revenge kill it after losing a pokemon or having one severely damaged by Hurricane, depending on the stage of the battle at which I fought it. That being said, the worst case scenario is typically what happened, so it came to a point where anytime I had to face The Bird, I essentially had to choose who was going to take the fall and adjust my strategy for the remainder of my opponents team accordingly.

Finally, over the course of this suspect test (and I had to go through A LOT of battles to make reqs), I can confidently say that not too much has changed as far as how teams were built. I still saw a relatively large amount of Rotom-H, Scarfed Mienshao, Mega Dactyl, EmpoAftleon, and Snorlax even with The Bird's absence. One thing that did change was there was a much greater presence of Cobalion (especially the Sub SD), as well as Mega ObamaSnow, two pokemon that generally feared The Bird, but now had a much easier time not having to play against it.

After evaluating everything, I have come to the conclusion that Bird Jeezus, although an extremely powerful threat in UU, is not a game-breaking overcentralizing threat since many of it's checks and counters are incredibly common and at least B+ in the Viability ranking. Therefore I (will) vote DO NOT BAN. I'm open for discussion.

 

[Clownin']

Ok, so when people say that they're not giving a 'detailed' post they actually are. There's a lot to read, so I might overlook some things. With that said, I think the argument about how it restricts teambuilding is a relevant one. People say that other uu mons also only have a certain amount of counters, so apparently that makes mega bird okay. (I assume they're talking about suicune, reuniclus, snorlax etc) Those mons aren't exactly fun to go against and really I see plenty of 'experienced' players on the ladder that really don't know how to teambuild just throw those types of mons together on a team and do well. The reason why they do well is that if the opponent doesn't prepare for these types of mons then they're either at a great disadvantage (where you have to sack something to kill/damage it for a revenge kill) or you're going to straight up lose. Lost your only physical attacker? Snorlax's threat level just went up 3 million percent. So yes there are other mons that only have like 4/5 checks, but they're not exactly healthy for the tier either. (And if you run a full team of fighting types just for lax, then you'll lose to like florges or something. Usually people can only afford to have 1 check on their team for these types of mons so that they can deal with other things. I doubt anyone would argue this, but just saying.)

With mega-bird gone, I found making teams way easier and overall I had a better time playing in the suspect. Pre-suspect I ran empoleon for bird, but even that got screwed over by confuse hax/u-turn into magneton or something along those lines. We should really talk about how deadly m-bird is if your opponent actually knows what he/she is doing/preprares for its like 4/5 counters (i.e. their team makes sense, has synergy.) For these reasons and ones listed earlier in the thread, I'll be voting ban.