np: ORAS UU Stage 3 - New Gods

[Metalhand]

As of the moment I have no solid opinion on victini, I can see it go either way. But it really annoy me to see people say that nothing has changed. First of all we have oras, which added a lot of threats to deal with, a lot of those can give it a lot of trouble(gatr, salamence, tyrantrum, mamoswine and mega pert are good one). Also the meta shifted much more into offence, which victini doesn't like, and make his greatest set during xy(choice band) much less viable, while LO and choice scarf are also great they feel lacking(LO longevity and choice scarf power). Add into this the fact that even when victini was deemed banned it wasn't some super broken mon.
Given all of it I won't be suprised to see it stay.

 

[Schpoonman]

Okay, the gist of it is that Fatmence ranges anywhere from a 4HKO without Rocks to small chance for a 3HKO with Rocks. Again, even with zero speed investment you outspeed non-scarf Victini after one V-create and can proceed to retaliate as you see fit from there.

EDIT: Well, there you go. I'm in agreement with what st123 said about Scald and Gatr, though.

 

[xMarth]

Again, PLEASE provide some hard evidence that most Feraligatr run Substitute, because I have never encountered one that did. Feraligatr's coverage is way too precious to safely run Substitute normally. Feraligatr requires way more team support to properly sweep if he's running Substitute. EDIT: I think you missed my point, actually, so lemme clarify. I didn't say bulky waters gave Feraligatr trouble (though Suicune and Empoleon if Feraligatr is lacking Earthquake or Superpower can), I said that the tier is so prepared for Water-types that Feraligatr is often prepared for in some part without even thinking of him specifically, and to account for him specifically is not a large leap from there.

Substitute 15.754% from 1630s
Substitute 27.595% from 1760s

I'd say its relevant enough to take into consideration but not nearly as common as its been made out to be. Substitute's main use is blocking the random scald burns that Gatr obviously hates. Without Ice coverage Gatr can't break through the bulky Grass types that have risen to check it. So while Gatr is very good I think that it probably shouldn't be suspected until he has no reason to run Substitute. So basically if Scald is ever suspected and banned then I'm almost sure Feraligatr would follow.

 

[Patrick1088]

As of the moment I have no solid opinion on victini, I can see it go either way. But it really annoy me to see people say that nothing has changed. First of all we have oras, which added a lot of threats to deal with, a lot of those can give it a lot of trouble(gatr, salamence, tyrantrum, mamoswine and mega pert are good one). Also the meta shifted much more into offence, which victini doesn't like, and make his greatest set during xy(choice band) much less viable, while LO and choice scarf are also great they feel lacking(LO longevity and choice scarf power). Add into this the fact that even when victini was deemed banned it wasn't some super broken mon.
Given all of it I won't be suprised to see it stay.

The only relevant threats OrAs introduced were FatMence and Viability of Tyrantrum (which is still ohko by Focus Blast). Gatr and M pert are still hit by Thunder and Energy Ball/Grass Knot respectively. Mamo again cant switch in to focus Blast.

 

[Chronobreak]

Ok really hate to nag but when is this suspect gonna start I've been expecting it for three days and really want to get reqs for my first test.

 

[rs]

Nah but really though, Sam and Hikari have prolly been busy daedalus1103

 

[thyme time]

ok no more waiting

 

[Dad's Dad]

i dont think victini is all that broken tbh. so many things in the tier can abuse a -1 tini its ridiculous, tini cant just mindlessly v-create. i understand that if it gets a free switch in somethings probably gonna die but so many common mons can use v-create to their advantage or revenge it such as feraligatr (can dd or sd), salamence (can dd or fatmence can defog), krookodile (can get up rocks or pursuit), m-aerodactyl (is a threat haha), m-swampert (can get up rocks or rain dance), tyrantrum (free head smash), hydreigon (free hard hit off on something), snorlax (free curses unless focus blast), m-ampharos (free momentum), nidoqueen (can get rocks up), m-blastoise (can spin), chandelure (can sub, cm, or shadow ball). i know it has the coverage to beat most if not all of these mons but the tini player has to think twice before clicking v-create if you have these mons on your team.

 

[GULLY]

tinis downside in v create will never over shadow its power and brokeness along with tinis versatility. i dont think there is a question in its brokeness, there are are too many that threaten too many different things and it has always been that way. i can see that since there are more mons that can take adantage of tinis spammong v-create which is usually seen with the band set, we will see more mixed sets that will decimate the meta tbh. idk why ppl want to throw the balance off in the meta when we just reached a pretty balanced meta, pretty sadastic imo.

 

[bsu]

i dont think victini is all that broken tbh. so many things in the tier can abuse a -1 tini its ridiculous, tini cant just mindlessly v-create. i understand that if it gets a free switch in somethings probably gonna die but so many common mons can use v-create to their advantage or revenge it such as feraligatr (can dd or sd), salamence (can dd or fatmence can defog), krookodile (can get up rocks or pursuit), m-aerodactyl (is a threat haha), m-swampert (can get up rocks or rain dance), tyrantrum (free head smash), hydreigon (free hard hit off on something), snorlax (free curses unless focus blast), m-ampharos (free momentum), nidoqueen (can get rocks up), m-blastoise (can spin), chandelure (can sub, cm, or shadow ball). i know it has the coverage to beat most if not all of these mons but the tini player has to think twice before clicking v-create if you have these mons on your team.

Unfortunately, a lot of those mons get 2koed by a CB v-create (calcs were posted earlier somewhere) except for like fatmence (-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 111-132 (28.1 - 33.5%) I'm not sure on the exact spread mence runs lol)
like look at this
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 186-219 (50.8 - 59.8%)
disgusting D:
(the main point being they're kinda forced to attack instead of set up/support moves, or risk being 2k0ed, given like basic mind games)

Krookodile cant even safely pursuit 100% of the time unless banded

calcs

Calcs are based on tini staying in
252 Atk Life Orb Krookodile Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 242-283 (70.9 - 82.9%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Krookodile Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 265-312 (77.7 - 91.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 272-324 (79.7 - 95%)
and banded vcreate 0kos (83% of the time if adamant, 25% if jolly) even with an intimidate so the victini can always just stay in lol

MAero is even weaker :/


idk yet how i feel about victini coming back, a lil excited, a lil nervous, a lil gassy, but definitely will be fun hehe :]

 

[amber lamps]

whats the point of bringing down victini while we should focus instead on whats potentially broken atm and that is already in UU? lol gatr says hi
anyways, as someone already pointed out above, it has sure ways to be dealt with it, but which problem will solve about the tier? i think it will just add one more huge threat to take into consideration when building rather than solve something or making the metagame more balanced...

 

[feen]

whats the point of bringing down victini while we should focus instead on whats potentially broken atm and that is already in UU? lol gatr says hi
anyways, as someone already pointed out above, it has sure ways to be dealt with it, but which problem will solve about the tier? i think it will just add one more huge threat to take into consideration when building rather than solve something or making the metagame more balanced...

Don't forget Pidgeot as well which can potentiality 2hko 80% of the tier as well as 30% chance to confuse making it beat its walls and having a great speed stat of 121. It also forces people to run LO tbolt azelf specially for this and other stuffs as well like toxic Florges. Work up refresh also 6-0s stall so it's actually really broken for the tier. Suspecting that would be more reasonable than Victini tbh

 

[UU ALL DAY]

The whole point of a suspect test is to see if something is broken lol, if everyone just theory-monned, things like Hydregion and Haxarous and shit wouldn't even be in the tier. We should be constructive with our criticism on the tier, and not complain about whether something is potentially broken because of its passed versatility, ie mence through the ages, hydregion from bw2 to oras, blissey falling, etc.

at the time when victini was banned, the meta was arguably more balanced/stall based, whereas things like mega-aero and gatr weren't used much. Now, something like sd or dd gatr can sweep teams if given a free turn, similar to how victini will most likely nab a kill if you give it a free switch (think, smart double switches).

victini is really versatile, but things like infernape and mixed hydregion are as well. they can pick certain counters. considering victini has been around some bw, it should be obvious if a victini is being doubled into a swampert, it probably has grass knot ?_?

i think there's a difference between a mon being really good and a mon that is outright broken. I think something like terrak was outright broken in this tier, but something like suicine, aero, or victini is just a top mon in the tier.

 

[Ducem]

If I may speculate, with tini coming down soon(ish) I think we might see some more usage in dugtrio. As he can easily revenge kill after tini has used V-create, and even before. The only thing dug would have to be wary of is scarfed tini, which is pretty uncommon compared to other sets (even then, lots of people run scarfed dug). So, I'm for thinking that if victini is here to stay, I'm more than ready to slap dug on a team or two.

 

[feen]

If I may speculate, with tini coming down soon(ish) I think we might see some more usage in dugtrio. As he can easily revenge kill after tini has used V-create, and even before. The only thing dug would have to be wary of is scarfed tini, which is pretty uncommon compared to other sets (even then, lots of people run scarfed dug). So, I'm for thinking that if victini is here to stay, I'm more than ready to slap dug on a team or two.

Sash dugtrio with Xatu to keep away hazards ez counter n_n

 

[Wanka]

While yes CB victini was definately the superior set in the past due to the tier not having as many switch ins that have been recently brought up via tyrantrum and mence, I honestly dont see the CB set being as used or as effective as a life orb set or and expert belt which is way more dangerous than a CB set. Now I was for sure questioning this suspect at first due to victini's very good versatility and access to a base 180 power move, but I honestly do not think it will be as bad as perceived to be. It is not like we don't have things for this mon god forbid you have to use snorlax to check it or salamence, tyrantrum (A decent HO mon), or mega amph and some others. It's not like tini is centralizing as those mons are good mons to use in the tier. Snorlax walls it very nicely even if it does have focus blast because it doesn't even break 40% on lax and if it is carrying focus blast, it wont have glaciate meaning mence is a good answer to it as well. You can definitely count on all of those mons being present in the suspect test as well along with aero and krook most likely being commonly used mons in the test. More so just want to keep an open mind going into this and not let previous experiences affect tini's effectiveness.

(k9 is a solid check hue)

 

[Saria]

Ladder most likely going up today.