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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
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It's been like 4 days. Of course there's only 1 person who's qualified already.
But christ, it's only been 4 days. If someone can get 500 points in 4 days, I'm pretty sure a lot of people can do it in two and a half weeks.
I haven't had a particular amount of trouble with any of the suspects so far. I dislike having to decide which Pokemon to sacrifice to sleep at the beginning of every match where I see the opponent has Darkrai, but I do the same thing for shit like Breloom as well. I guess Shaymin-s is a dick like always, although it's never lead to a sweep and has always been "manageable".
But christ, it's only been 4 days. If someone can get 500 points in 4 days, I'm pretty sure a lot of people can do it in two and a half weeks.
I haven't had a particular amount of trouble with any of the suspects so far. I dislike having to decide which Pokemon to sacrifice to sleep at the beginning of every match where I see the opponent has Darkrai, but I do the same thing for shit like Breloom as well. I guess Shaymin-s is a dick like always, although it's never lead to a sweep and has always been "manageable".
Honestly, Shaymin-S is simply an improved Jirachi. But it's a really improved Jirachi-it's got +25 or so in its two attacking stats.
In other words, it's a total pain and might be banned just for annoyance value. I have literally thrown 4 Pokemon against a Shaymin-S. They were all flinched to death.
In other words, it's a total pain and might be banned just for annoyance value. I have literally thrown 4 Pokemon against a Shaymin-S. They were all flinched to death.
Just wanted to say that I really like this metagame. Since there are lots of Pokemon, its very diverse and fun with many options. People need to think more and look for more options to counter other the top threats. I mean like I was using a Darkrai and was stopped by Aerodactyl's speed when I lead with it (got flinched by rock slide lol), and also stopped cold when I faced a guy who used scarf Primeape, which surprised me a lot.
I have not been having too much trouble handling the old uber threats such as Darkrai and Skymin. Deoxys-A is kind of annoying though setting up hazards, but dies really easily. I don't have trouble against Doryuuzu by using stuff like Skarmory, Hitmontop, or Roobushin. (I wish there was technician Breloom. T_T)
Manaphy in the rain is kind of too good though lol. I'm on the fence with Deoxys-A about banning. Everything else is fine for me.
I have not been having too much trouble handling the old uber threats such as Darkrai and Skymin. Deoxys-A is kind of annoying though setting up hazards, but dies really easily. I don't have trouble against Doryuuzu by using stuff like Skarmory, Hitmontop, or Roobushin. (I wish there was technician Breloom. T_T)
Manaphy in the rain is kind of too good though lol. I'm on the fence with Deoxys-A about banning. Everything else is fine for me.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Well here are my thoughts.
Big Four:
Darkrai: He's a joke. Honestly underwhelming, he can't take too much abuse and is really a one trick pony, hope he sleeps the lead, Sub up, and Try to sweep his way out of the corner he put himself in. He can't switch out since he no longer has the ability to sleep something and safely set up a sub, and he can't set up NP as he doesn't have the moveslot for it. You can risk not running the substitute, and promptly see him die to random scarf pokemon "x."
Deoxys-A: Also a joke. More so than Darkrai. He's threatening for all of two seconds and then realizes he's at the wrong end of the sweep. Any kind of breeze can knock him over, and I really only see him as a gimmicky power sweeper like azelf. Similarly, he might end up as a suicide lead just like our faerie friend. Being powerful isn't what it's about this gen. It's about power and bulk.
Doryuuzu: I can see the argument a little bit more here. If you aren't prepared, he can tear through your team. If you are prepared and you lost your counter/check then he rips through your team. But so does Gyarados, and Gengar, and every other sweeper that has every existed. If you didn't prepare for a major threat, then you flat aren't building a good team. And it's not even that hard to find something that completely walls him. Skarmory and Bronzong both laugh in his face and watch him as he struggles to do anything. Many other things check him as well. Balloon Heatran does it very effectively, Gliscor does it equally as well, both resisting all of his coverage bar the neutral Rock Slide and KOing back. I have yet to truly believe that he has enough power in him to be broken, but I'm willing to be convinced.
Skymin: HOLY SHIT. Broken as all fuck. I tried a lovely set out earlier today. Growth/Seed Flare/Air Slash/Substitute on a sunny day team. Brought it in on a Nattorei, used the sub popped Growth and swept. Just so easy to do. There's no rhyme or reason to it. The natural speed, and the astounding power we all knew about, and then the addition of DroughtTails and his access to Growth puts him above and beyond the other 3 big name suspects for me, by a long shot.
And now, for my wild card choice...
Roobushin: I'm not certain yet. But his usage, power, and bulk just dominate this metagame. Being able to be a Physical wall AND sweeper at the same time due to the Bulk Up Drain Punch combo, while checking many of the metagames heaviest hitters with Mach Punch is just staggering. I know he folds like paper against a powerful Special Attack, but I'm just saying. I don't know if he's specifically designed for this metagame, or if he has a little bit of broken in him, maybe even both. But I wanna keep an eye on him for the future.
Miscellaneous...
Manaphy: In the rain he's a monster. Out of it, he's just kind of there. In this gen, if you don't run anything to check the rain than you deserve to get dropped by this guy.
Wobbuffet: Broken. He's the same as he's always been: master of the free turn. And a free turn of set-up is a nightmare from many of the new threats this gen has brought, and even from the threats from past gens.
Garchomp: Been enjoying his power, but with all the dragons running amok that outspeed him, has yet to truly dominate as he did in 4th gen. Not broken quite yet, we'll see in the future how the sand settles.
Lati@s: Draco Meteor Spam anyone? Juries still out for. Their power is astounding and their ability to check most other Dragons bar choice scarf is outstanding. But with a steel on every team, spamming Draco Meteor isn't as effective and it may cost you some valuable power. I'm leaning towards broken on Latios, and we'll see for Latias.
EDIT: Oh, and for DrizzleToad and DroughtTails, they're as broken as Hippowdon and Tyranitar. i.e. Not very. In fact it's harder to be a rain or sun team, as those that benefit from those brands of weather just don't have the natural bulk that a Sand team gives (let's not kid ourselves about hail). Rain has nothing outside of Kingdra, Manaphy, and Ludicolo, maybe Armaldo that can take more than one hit, and Sun has either a terrible typing on it's chlorophyll sweepers or a blatant weakness to ground/stealth rock for sun boosted STAB in fire, so they don't last long either. This forces them on a more hyper offensive style. This style really misses the idea of a Pokemon who sets up their weather and dies for them, allowing them to come in safely. Something you simply can't do with the Auto-inducers everywhere in this gen.
Big Four:
Darkrai: He's a joke. Honestly underwhelming, he can't take too much abuse and is really a one trick pony, hope he sleeps the lead, Sub up, and Try to sweep his way out of the corner he put himself in. He can't switch out since he no longer has the ability to sleep something and safely set up a sub, and he can't set up NP as he doesn't have the moveslot for it. You can risk not running the substitute, and promptly see him die to random scarf pokemon "x."
Deoxys-A: Also a joke. More so than Darkrai. He's threatening for all of two seconds and then realizes he's at the wrong end of the sweep. Any kind of breeze can knock him over, and I really only see him as a gimmicky power sweeper like azelf. Similarly, he might end up as a suicide lead just like our faerie friend. Being powerful isn't what it's about this gen. It's about power and bulk.
Doryuuzu: I can see the argument a little bit more here. If you aren't prepared, he can tear through your team. If you are prepared and you lost your counter/check then he rips through your team. But so does Gyarados, and Gengar, and every other sweeper that has every existed. If you didn't prepare for a major threat, then you flat aren't building a good team. And it's not even that hard to find something that completely walls him. Skarmory and Bronzong both laugh in his face and watch him as he struggles to do anything. Many other things check him as well. Balloon Heatran does it very effectively, Gliscor does it equally as well, both resisting all of his coverage bar the neutral Rock Slide and KOing back. I have yet to truly believe that he has enough power in him to be broken, but I'm willing to be convinced.
Skymin: HOLY SHIT. Broken as all fuck. I tried a lovely set out earlier today. Growth/Seed Flare/Air Slash/Substitute on a sunny day team. Brought it in on a Nattorei, used the sub popped Growth and swept. Just so easy to do. There's no rhyme or reason to it. The natural speed, and the astounding power we all knew about, and then the addition of DroughtTails and his access to Growth puts him above and beyond the other 3 big name suspects for me, by a long shot.
And now, for my wild card choice...
Roobushin: I'm not certain yet. But his usage, power, and bulk just dominate this metagame. Being able to be a Physical wall AND sweeper at the same time due to the Bulk Up Drain Punch combo, while checking many of the metagames heaviest hitters with Mach Punch is just staggering. I know he folds like paper against a powerful Special Attack, but I'm just saying. I don't know if he's specifically designed for this metagame, or if he has a little bit of broken in him, maybe even both. But I wanna keep an eye on him for the future.
Miscellaneous...
Manaphy: In the rain he's a monster. Out of it, he's just kind of there. In this gen, if you don't run anything to check the rain than you deserve to get dropped by this guy.
Wobbuffet: Broken. He's the same as he's always been: master of the free turn. And a free turn of set-up is a nightmare from many of the new threats this gen has brought, and even from the threats from past gens.
Garchomp: Been enjoying his power, but with all the dragons running amok that outspeed him, has yet to truly dominate as he did in 4th gen. Not broken quite yet, we'll see in the future how the sand settles.
Lati@s: Draco Meteor Spam anyone? Juries still out for. Their power is astounding and their ability to check most other Dragons bar choice scarf is outstanding. But with a steel on every team, spamming Draco Meteor isn't as effective and it may cost you some valuable power. I'm leaning towards broken on Latios, and we'll see for Latias.
EDIT: Oh, and for DrizzleToad and DroughtTails, they're as broken as Hippowdon and Tyranitar. i.e. Not very. In fact it's harder to be a rain or sun team, as those that benefit from those brands of weather just don't have the natural bulk that a Sand team gives (let's not kid ourselves about hail). Rain has nothing outside of Kingdra, Manaphy, and Ludicolo, maybe Armaldo that can take more than one hit, and Sun has either a terrible typing on it's chlorophyll sweepers or a blatant weakness to ground/stealth rock for sun boosted STAB in fire, so they don't last long either. This forces them on a more hyper offensive style. This style really misses the idea of a Pokemon who sets up their weather and dies for them, allowing them to come in safely. Something you simply can't do with the Auto-inducers everywhere in this gen.
An excellent check to Doryuuzu is Ballon Magnezone. The most common Dory set that I've seen is:
Swords Dance
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Shadow Claw/X-Scissor
Magnezone can come in on an EQ (yay balloon) and Magnet Rise as Dory uses a coverage move. Thanks to Steel typing and 115 base defense, the coverage moves do almost nothing to Magnezone. With Magnet Rise up, Mganezone can freely set up a Sub and HP Fire Dory to death. The only way for Doryuuzu to beat it is by running Brick Break. But it doesn't get the best coverage with EQ, so I haven't seen it much. Anyway, it's the set I run, and it also counters Nattorei, who is an obnoxious wall.
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I actually don't think Wobb is that broken this Gen. Even with such high HP, it can't switch into sweepers anymore without taking large amounts of damage. Nothing tries to set up on it anymore, so it can't really Encore a set-up move and Tickle (unless he out-speeds lol). Those were the two most broken things last Gen. It still has the terrible Toxic/Taunt weakness. I'd say that Wobb's best bet is a Custap Destiny Bond set, but it dies to priority and, if Wobb is weak enough, weather.
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You forgot Kabutops on your list of rain sweepers. After a Swords Dance, it becomes a monster. It has nearly no special bulk, but can take ~1 physical hit. Also, DrizzleToad makes Parasect viable, but it looks like it won't be OU. Dry Skin + Leftovers + Leech Seed is a lot of healing. Not to mention that it gets Spore. I'm thinking UU for little Parasect.
I agree with the above, and just to be clear, I definitely see Dory as a bigger problem poke than Deoxys A.
Deoxys A is outrun by every common scarf user, including Scarf 100s. Dory is not.
That already makes for a whole different dynamic of power imo.
This is absurd. Sand's biggest virtue over Rain / Sun is and always will be Hippowdon and Tyranitar's superiority as pokemon to the team. Ninetales and Politoed, no matter what, amount to little more than meat shields themselves. Sand will remain the dominant weather even without dory, if only because non-rain/sun teams will need it to counter rain and sun.
Deo-A is more of a wallbreaker while Dory is meant to sweep, they're not really too comparable imo. What I find most threatening about Deo-A as opposed to Dory is that it can just Extremespeed against stuff that rely on killing it with Scarfers or priority. I find them both as equally powerful in their own right though.
Oh and Balloon is a very risky way of handling Dory, most of the time its saved until late game which means it's likely that your Balloon has already popped. It's come in handy for me a few times as a backup check but I certainly would never rely on it like some people claim to be doing.
Oh and Balloon is a very risky way of handling Dory, most of the time its saved until late game which means it's likely that your Balloon has already popped. It's come in handy for me a few times as a backup check but I certainly would never rely on it like some people claim to be doing.
Lol, absolutely agree. Unless you pack an Empoleon or some such, it kills you with Sub / Protect / Toxic / Surf.
Seriously, these days Dory isn't as much of a threat as it used to be. I rarely ever get a whole team sweep (well, I still do sometimes...) because everybody packs so many counters to him. Politoed and Ninetales definitely shouldn't be banned because, in this meta, they really are just meatshields (as stated beforehand). I agree that Skymin should be banned. Choice Scarf isn't too difficult to handle (although it's power is INCREDIBLE) but Life Orb is just too powerful / versatile for this meta. My next bet would be Darkrai, but that's simply because of the 125 Speed + Dark Void - Dark isn't the greatest type this meta.
Inconsistent Octillert? What the...
Doryuuzu is broken. It isn't outsped by Scarf 130s. Priorities can be met with a ghost.
Darkrai is broken. It's a Gengar with a similar STAB, more reliable sleep move, nasty plot, and way more bulk. And yet Gengar was top OU.
Deoxys-A is broken. It can kill a hell lot of stuff. Priority kills it, though. I don't really have better arguments at the moment, but personal opinion - it's broken.
Skymin I have not used yet. Can't say anything I haven't tried.
Manaphy is not broken. Drizzletoad is the broken one.
Wobbuffet is about as broken as the weather inducers. I love him and want him to stay, but he is just broken.
Lati@s I also haven't used in Gen 5.
Garchomp is sand veil abuse, I haven't used one but I missed several HP Ices with my Shandera on DW.
Drizzletoad and Droughtales are broken. Drizzletoad on a slightly more scale. They are released if you are following Pokemon Online's dream world policy, everything on Serebii (ironic) counts. Doubling speed is bad. A slightly bulky swift swimmer that can withstand the fighting priorities that can set up rips apart team. Hi Kingdra. Droughtales is still broken. While you might say it's the same for Sandstorm, that's Dory's problem, not Ttar and Hippo's.
Doryuuzu is broken. It isn't outsped by Scarf 130s. Priorities can be met with a ghost.
Darkrai is broken. It's a Gengar with a similar STAB, more reliable sleep move, nasty plot, and way more bulk. And yet Gengar was top OU.
Deoxys-A is broken. It can kill a hell lot of stuff. Priority kills it, though. I don't really have better arguments at the moment, but personal opinion - it's broken.
Skymin I have not used yet. Can't say anything I haven't tried.
Manaphy is not broken. Drizzletoad is the broken one.
Wobbuffet is about as broken as the weather inducers. I love him and want him to stay, but he is just broken.
Lati@s I also haven't used in Gen 5.
Garchomp is sand veil abuse, I haven't used one but I missed several HP Ices with my Shandera on DW.
Drizzletoad and Droughtales are broken. Drizzletoad on a slightly more scale. They are released if you are following Pokemon Online's dream world policy, everything on Serebii (ironic) counts. Doubling speed is bad. A slightly bulky swift swimmer that can withstand the fighting priorities that can set up rips apart team. Hi Kingdra. Droughtales is still broken. While you might say it's the same for Sandstorm, that's Dory's problem, not Ttar and Hippo's.
Ok, I agree, this thing is retarded.
Drizzle toed is still arguable since hes actualy very powerful with specs and need some guessing to face. I use mew to deal with that thing though
Drought tales on the other hand is lol. Too fragile and must rely on Hypnomiss
or the sometime unreliable Miss-o-Miss.
If were saying Inducer thats broken, Ttar is more fit.
It checkmate Droughttales that uses Hypnomiss and even more checking on Solarbeam. If mana isnt there Rain isnt as absurd
An active leaf guard makes rest fail
Confirmed Leaf Guard now prevents the holder from using Rest during sunny weather (Jiggy)
Since when has Jumpluff of all things been an issue? And Leafeon has Chlorophyll now (I believe it was released?) meaning a SD set is the one to use.
I really have to disagree with wanting to ban the weather starters. The only Weather abuse Poke that's broken is Manaphy. In the rain, you basically must have a fast, powerful Electric or Grass type to take it out quickly or manipulate the weather. You can't "play around" Manaphy like other sweepers you may not have a perfect answer to when it can get to +6 in two turns, is immune to status and heals off the majority of attacks. By that time not even Nattorei is going to be able to handle that monster.
Doryuuzu is very good but quite manageable. It has plenty of common counters and checks who are already very popular (Hippo, Gliscor, Skarm, Roobushin, ect.) It's not over the top in the way Manaphy is. As for sun teams, which are usually kind of pitiful in general, there is no sun abuser who can even begin to compare with the level of Manaphy or Doryuuzu. So again, the weather isn't the problem (though stuff like Shell Break Gorebyss is pretty ridiculous), it's Manaphy.
So, aside from Manaphy, which I think is easily the most broken Pokemon atm, there's only a couple more Pokemon that I think are potentially broken.
Darkrai: Basically it's Gengar with better stats, a better sleeping move, but worse typing. It's obviously Dark Void that sets it over the edge. With the new sleep mechanics, a sleeping Pokemon with no Sleep Talk is almost as good as dead. Most Scarfers can keep it from sweeping outright, along with the popularity of Roobushin. I'm open to debate on Darkrai but I'm inclined to say that it may be broken.
Skymin: I haven't really encountered Skymin much for whatever reason, but when I did it was obviously very very good. It's typing actually seems like it would be pretty beneficial in this meta, checking huge threats like Manaphy, Roobushin, Kerudio and other fighters with it's STABs alone. I really woudn't want to see Skymin banned but not Manaphy, considering it's one of the few answers to it. I can see Skymin going either way right now, but I'll need more experience with it before I can say for certain.
Everything else: Nothing else really stands out to me as much as the previous three have. I'm very interested to see where the Deoxys forms end up, particulartly A, and if N perhaps will stay OU while A is banned. I honestly don't think Deo-A is broken, what with all the speed freaks around thanks to the weather, along with most scarfers, but Extremespeed might just push it over the edge.
I may post more later, for now I these are my impressions. I also agree with jrrrrrrr about not being ban-happy. I enjoy suspect discussions, but feel that the metagame is still in the early stages of development, and that only the overwhelmingly obvious overpowered Pokes (Manaphy...imo) should be considered for banning.
Also, Afro Bull is indeed good. I haven't tried an all out defensive set yet though. There are so many great Grass types this gen that having an immunity to Leaf Storm (especially once DW Jaroda is realeased), Power Whip, Spore, Stun Spore, Leech Seed, ect. is really invaluable.
Just so people know, Dream World OU is a "fun" ladder that has all OU Dream World Pokémon and event abilities allowed. Laddering on there won't count toward qualifying to vote on Standard OU, the "canon" metagame that this is for.
I completely agree about the first part of this.Toad and Ninetails are somewhat of a useless poke that you'r "forced" to run in your team while Tar and Hippo are the best of the best and can be extreemely benificial for your team by taking out large threats such as Shandera,Latios and Doryuzu respectively.Sand teams are just more stable and versatile then any other kind of team as they aren't as much dependant on their weather like the others which is quite problematic because in the current metagame the weather keeps constantly changing.They also dont have limited options so you cant exactly have a "Surefire" counter/Check to them as you can with others.
However i dont think sand is going to be that dominating if Dory is gone.The main reason offensive sand teams are becoming so popular is because of the sheer brilliance of dory and his ability to easily sweep through teams.Its also not quite that hard to eliminate his counters.He is pretty much the backbone of any sand team and imo is much much better then other signature sweepers such as Kingdra and Venasaur.Terakion might carry on the job but doubt he could ever compare to Dory.
Also as jrrrr (Sorry dude i dont know how many "r"s there are in your name :S) pointed out i also dont think its a good idea to start talking about more of the rather "Controversial" suspects like Dory already as i feel its far too early to go into such matters.I think the more clearly broken things like Doexys and Darkrai Imo should be dealt with first.
And about Ubers being nominated back...
No.
Oh and i just wanted to say..Excellent posts Bologo ^.^
They were banned because lowering a Pokemon's maximum level so it can be used in a lower tiers literally does open up a slippery slope of "What level does <insert Uber here> need to be lowered to in order to be balanced in OU?" That and the fact that the lowest level you could get each was at level 45.
They were not banned under the support characteristic.
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