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np: RU Stage 3 - Like a Boss
- Thread starter Oglemi
- Start date
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Tbh, I ran into that team and several copies of it, and for something so "broken" it's ridiculously weak to Entei. Druddigon is iirc the only thing that resists Flare Blitz without being vulnerable to Stone Edge. Seriously, Entei and Hitmonchan alone destroy 4/6 of his Pokemon no contest. My team doesn't even have a Ghost-type to switch into Endeavor, and I still win easily.
Powerful? Yes. Annoying? Hell yes. Broken? Fuck no.
Powerful? Yes. Annoying? Hell yes. Broken? Fuck no.
Recent changes to the team involve Slowking>Lampent.
In other news Entei's have run crying home to mommy.
In other news Entei's have run crying home to mommy.
WOAH!
who knew a team I made in like 15-20 min on 3 days ago would cause so much discussion o.o
Focus Sash Snover is surprisingly good; people often just ram things such as Honchkrow's Brave Bird into it, thus allowing for a free KO. With priority, hail, Protect, and the ability to basically guaratee at least 1 Blizzard, Snover is definitely a devastating force in the metagame. It also supports the Solosis + Duosion strategy extremely effectively.
Regardless, hail is still the only permanent weather in RU, making it just that much more devastating. And with extremely powerful sweepers such as Rotom-F to benefit from it, Snover should definitely be considered as a suspect.
who knew a team I made in like 15-20 min on 3 days ago would cause so much discussion o.o
Focus Sash Snover is surprisingly good; people often just ram things such as Honchkrow's Brave Bird into it, thus allowing for a free KO. With priority, hail, Protect, and the ability to basically guaratee at least 1 Blizzard, Snover is definitely a devastating force in the metagame. It also supports the Solosis + Duosion strategy extremely effectively.
Regardless, hail is still the only permanent weather in RU, making it just that much more devastating. And with extremely powerful sweepers such as Rotom-F to benefit from it, Snover should definitely be considered as a suspect.
Smeargle's super underrated in general. Really, all of my effective teams so far in RU have been utilizing the fact that Smeargle essentially takes out a mon with Spore and gets up at least one layer of hazards if I play it right.
I was on the bus today, on my way back home, played 2 matches using the
android client thingy, and ran into this team.
I hated it. The team I made finally started to work out semi-well against
basically the entire metagame, I took ~5 weeks to build it, and then
something like Double-Endeavor sneaks around the corner and wrecks me
effortlessly? NO.
Okay, subjective rant asside, I usually know how to deal with this stuff or
similar playstyles, but Snover + double Magic Guard takes this to a whole
new level. I consider it suspect-worthy because once you're prepared for it
well enough, you're already overprepared. You therefore open up a weak
spot to other Pokémon or playstyles by preparing for this kind of team, and
this will make the RU metagame less enjoyable.
"Okay, time to do some laddering... oh, it's this team again, sure, I can beat
it, but it will be the same fight as last time and the time before it, and if
there was a slight adjustment made to this team, I'll lose regardless of what
I do because I cannot prepare for all the variants of it."
Reminds me a lot of Deoxys-S... :(
android client thingy, and ran into this team.
I hated it. The team I made finally started to work out semi-well against
basically the entire metagame, I took ~5 weeks to build it, and then
something like Double-Endeavor sneaks around the corner and wrecks me
effortlessly? NO.
Okay, subjective rant asside, I usually know how to deal with this stuff or
similar playstyles, but Snover + double Magic Guard takes this to a whole
new level. I consider it suspect-worthy because once you're prepared for it
well enough, you're already overprepared. You therefore open up a weak
spot to other Pokémon or playstyles by preparing for this kind of team, and
this will make the RU metagame less enjoyable.
"Okay, time to do some laddering... oh, it's this team again, sure, I can beat
it, but it will be the same fight as last time and the time before it, and if
there was a slight adjustment made to this team, I'll lose regardless of what
I do because I cannot prepare for all the variants of it."
Reminds me a lot of Deoxys-S... :(
Okay, i thought that people were just rattled about endeavor, but seriously? A hint: don't bring Solosis and Duosion to its sash. Yeah, Solosis is kinda frail so I can understand offensive teams that can't help but bring it to the sash, but both of them are lv. 100's for hell's sake. Break the sash with a not very effective attack, neutral hidden power, etc, then kill it off with any strong STAB. Their Psychics are seriously not that strong to punish that kind of play -- especially neutral Psychic coming from Solosis. Also, you're gonna 2HKO it at best regardless, so why give them the powerful endeavor for no reason? Without Endeavor, they're basically a Trick Room... idk a weaker / stronger OTR Mesprit at best--you could just simply think of their sash as part of their 'bulk': nothing really ohkos it, but just about everything can 2hko. As for Lv. 1 Shenanigans, they are harder to counter if you don't have a ghost, but seriously Rotom's good enough on its own to warrant use anyway.
Snover's really good. I'm okay with it going on the suspect vote because seriously Snover's position as the only weather is kind of a big deal. BlizzSpam is still hard to beat, and guess what? When Qwilfish leaves (the most common tspike absorber), Stallrein is going to be more of an actual nuisance (as opposed to now when he's pretty much useless). But banning Snover because of Solosis and Duosion? Snover has at least two other, equally annoying things at his disposal.
Snover's really good. I'm okay with it going on the suspect vote because seriously Snover's position as the only weather is kind of a big deal. BlizzSpam is still hard to beat, and guess what? When Qwilfish leaves (the most common tspike absorber), Stallrein is going to be more of an actual nuisance (as opposed to now when he's pretty much useless). But banning Snover because of Solosis and Duosion? Snover has at least two other, equally annoying things at his disposal.
^ I agree with Amarilo
everyone should use rotom-O with Claydol being the number 1 ranked pokemon in the Tier, Rotom-O pretty much counters it most of the time, with the exception of Claydol carrying Shadow ball or switching into a predicted Toxic.
I personally prefer Toxic on my Claydol to catch Mummy and Dusknoir on the switch. Although I've been seeing more Mummy's with Rest, but since it doesn't have sleep talk, it's a sitting duck unless your team carries a Cleric.
I lost to Endeavour hail as well but that was because I didn't expect it and my Rotom Died early in the battle.
Ah well...
everyone should use rotom-O with Claydol being the number 1 ranked pokemon in the Tier, Rotom-O pretty much counters it most of the time, with the exception of Claydol carrying Shadow ball or switching into a predicted Toxic.
I personally prefer Toxic on my Claydol to catch Mummy and Dusknoir on the switch. Although I've been seeing more Mummy's with Rest, but since it doesn't have sleep talk, it's a sitting duck unless your team carries a Cleric.
I lost to Endeavour hail as well but that was because I didn't expect it and my Rotom Died early in the battle.
Ah well...
im assuming you mean regular rotom. There are alot of things that can come in and set up on claydol (if it doesn't toxic on the switch) such as bulk up gallade,krook,hunchkrow, etc. Rotom is a big threat though as it can wilo-wisp on the incoming krook and the ability to 2hko most of the tier
I still have no idea why Claydol is #1 after all this time... it's an awful Pokemon in the current metagame. It basically sets up Stealth Rock, and...that's it. It can't spin at all if your opponent has a decent Ghost-type. Seriously, all the Ghost-types in the teir shit all over Claydol. It's not even that good as a tank, most powerful attackers will 2HKO with SR support or just a bit of prior damage, not to mention that most sweepers carry a coverage move that is effective against Claydol. Bulky setup users like Gallade and Poliwrath also set up all over it while Claydol can't phaze them. Honchkrow just laughs at it if it doesn't have Ice Beam, while Lilligant sets up on it regardless even with the Sleep Clause in play. Blizzspam teams basically make it worthless because it can't switch in and it's slower than even the slowest Specs abusers, even Specs Glaceon is faster than a no-investment Claydol. That means that, of the three biggest threats in the teir, Claydol is fairly useless against... all of them.
Claydol is #1 for the overall metagame. For the users above a 1200, you can see how less useful it is. I guess its used because it is defensive in both defense and special unlike other spinners such as hitmonchan and Kabutops. It also can hurt quilfish which is the poke that puts up hazards the most. But still, claydol is set up fodder for alot of pokes. This tier is centered on dark,bug, and grass pokemon which provokes its walling abilities
I disagree, I almost always have Claydol as a rapid spinner. Of course it needs some support but it works well in tandem with alot of teams. If you don't have room for a poison type, its immunity to Toxic Spikes and hazards in general makes it an amazing spinner. Ghosts must always be careful of the Toxic predict, but the use of toxic extends to the other RU spinners as well. It's also surprisingly fast and with a few speed ev investments it can outspeed some of those bulk up fighters your talking about and land a Toxic. As for honchkrow with sub roost and lilligant, claydol isn't meant for taking on those pokemon anyways. It serves as a spinner that can cause trouble to ghosts(except Haunter or Resting ghosts) and many teams appreciate a good spinner with the top pokemon of RU being weak to SR(moltres, honchkrow, etc). With team support and it can overcome those threats you mentioned.
wow, I take a break for 3 days and apparently the whole metagame changes!? eh, all joking aside I saw a team similar to ShakeItUp's team about a month ago and yes I lost, because I didn't think of strategy that could be used and by that time I had let my honchkrow die and lost 2 'mons against the Solosis (i think this team used a level 1) after those loses, I no longer had my Bulkup Gallade answer and proceeded to lose.
I don't think snover is broken, and even though it appears that the Solosis, Dusion, hail combo team is difficult to beat, it would be my guess that given enough time effective answers that fit well onto "normal, diverse" teams will be found. (As Texas said, Jynx is somewhat of an answer... as is rock blast - perhaps fitting on support Armaldo or offensively on Cinccino? and it isn't too much of a stretch to say these can fit onto a viable RU team)
Edit: this isn't really a good reason to ban him, but it might be interesting and possibly more balanced if there was no perma-weather in RU. I'm fine with him staying, but I wouldn't miss him.
As for Claydol, I use/used him quite a bit. I don't think he is bad in the least, but I'll admit he was my crutch. I needed a fighting, rock, ground resist with rapid spin and SR. As for my general needs he filled them, but often gave the opponent a worry free switch in and that was his biggest down fall. -On a side note- one of my favorite sets on him had magic coat. Heh, so trolly. Sending sleep powder, toxic, hazards, etc. back. Still, it was a bit too situational.
In fact, I would have to say Claydol is a better dual screener support than a spin/SR supporter. I'm surprised I don't see more of those...perhaps Uxie is usually used over him.
I don't think snover is broken, and even though it appears that the Solosis, Dusion, hail combo team is difficult to beat, it would be my guess that given enough time effective answers that fit well onto "normal, diverse" teams will be found. (As Texas said, Jynx is somewhat of an answer... as is rock blast - perhaps fitting on support Armaldo or offensively on Cinccino? and it isn't too much of a stretch to say these can fit onto a viable RU team)
Edit: this isn't really a good reason to ban him, but it might be interesting and possibly more balanced if there was no perma-weather in RU. I'm fine with him staying, but I wouldn't miss him.
As for Claydol, I use/used him quite a bit. I don't think he is bad in the least, but I'll admit he was my crutch. I needed a fighting, rock, ground resist with rapid spin and SR. As for my general needs he filled them, but often gave the opponent a worry free switch in and that was his biggest down fall. -On a side note- one of my favorite sets on him had magic coat. Heh, so trolly. Sending sleep powder, toxic, hazards, etc. back. Still, it was a bit too situational.
In fact, I would have to say Claydol is a better dual screener support than a spin/SR supporter. I'm surprised I don't see more of those...perhaps Uxie is usually used over him.
Double01
Hate it or love it the under dog's on top
I will have to support putting snover up for suspect due to it being the only full-time weather and how Shakeitup has been able to abuse the hail. If snover isn't banned they should at least bring down hippopotas so blizzspam teams can be countered more easily. I myself have only beat the endeavor hail team once against DARREN using the team. The only reason i won because of good prediction allowing my klinklang being able to kill his duosion and Lilligant being able to hit sleep powder.
On another note no one has mentioned Sharpedo as a potential suspect poke. Sharpedo can run either physical or Mixpedo. Mixpedo is EXTREMELY deadly. If the opponent has no ferroseed or priority it can sweep with ease. Im not sure about calcs but I believe max Sp Atk and Rash nature can 2hko Physically defensive qwilfish with hydro pump.
On another note no one has mentioned Sharpedo as a potential suspect poke. Sharpedo can run either physical or Mixpedo. Mixpedo is EXTREMELY deadly. If the opponent has no ferroseed or priority it can sweep with ease. Im not sure about calcs but I believe max Sp Atk and Rash nature can 2hko Physically defensive qwilfish with hydro pump.
If you want a counter to sharpedo poliwrath is your best bet. It resists both of sharpedos STABS as well as ice beam while poliwrath can easily ko back. I personally agree that sharpedo might be suspect worthy but imo its not that bad compared to toher suspects in the tier such as snover and porygon-z.
I've done some calcs, and apparently hitmonchan has an excellent chance to OHKO the (tor)pedofish before it sets up with an iron fist boosted, STAB mach punch. I don't remember what set exactly, but I do remember seeing the math...
Poliwrath is your best bet, it can set up sub or circle throw out the switch in. Alomomola is your next best counter. It won't get 2hKo by any of its moves plus it can wish and proceed either to stall sharpedo with life orb damage or heal up another poke when sharpedo switches. However, alomoloma isn't very good to use in general unless your team depends on wish recoveries
Cannot even comprehend how I got picked for the council right now (as best forum poster no less!). It's 12:35 and I should be writing my paper for my lit final that's due tomorrow.
As for Sharpedo, having gotten onto the first ranking page with two seperate alts using Sharpedo, I can account for the fact that it has several issues that prevent it from being a suspect. First off is that priority is automatic doom for Sharpedo. Second is that it's very easy to predict either an attack or a Protect for the first move depending on the player's playstyle (part of my success with Sharpedo is my unpredictability). Third is that Sharpedo requires either heavy team support or a lot of weakening of the opposing team to be effective (the mixed set at least). Fourth, Sharpedo is utterly neutered by Thunder Wave, which is absolutely ubiquitous in RU. If you don't find at least one T-Wave user on a team, it's a surprise. Fifth, is that the premier Walls/tanks like Cofagrigus and Uxie are much harder to KO than they should be if you run Crunch (which you should be doing, Hydro Pump is easily a thousand times better than Surf, which Dark Pulse limits you to), and they can either cripple you with status or hit you with a Super-effective attack and do heavy damage. The last is that it has a bona-fide counter in Poliwrath. Pity Zen Headbutt is off limits for Speed Boost Sharpedo.
Anyway, Porygon-Z is apparently our suspect. Well, believe it or not, I got to the first page with him too. Tbh, it wasn't as monsterous as I expected. It has surprisingly little utility for something with four on-site sets and a wide movepool.
As for Sharpedo, having gotten onto the first ranking page with two seperate alts using Sharpedo, I can account for the fact that it has several issues that prevent it from being a suspect. First off is that priority is automatic doom for Sharpedo. Second is that it's very easy to predict either an attack or a Protect for the first move depending on the player's playstyle (part of my success with Sharpedo is my unpredictability). Third is that Sharpedo requires either heavy team support or a lot of weakening of the opposing team to be effective (the mixed set at least). Fourth, Sharpedo is utterly neutered by Thunder Wave, which is absolutely ubiquitous in RU. If you don't find at least one T-Wave user on a team, it's a surprise. Fifth, is that the premier Walls/tanks like Cofagrigus and Uxie are much harder to KO than they should be if you run Crunch (which you should be doing, Hydro Pump is easily a thousand times better than Surf, which Dark Pulse limits you to), and they can either cripple you with status or hit you with a Super-effective attack and do heavy damage. The last is that it has a bona-fide counter in Poliwrath. Pity Zen Headbutt is off limits for Speed Boost Sharpedo.
Anyway, Porygon-Z is apparently our suspect. Well, believe it or not, I got to the first page with him too. Tbh, it wasn't as monsterous as I expected. It has surprisingly little utility for something with four on-site sets and a wide movepool.
So P-z is what I'm voting on.
Convince me.
Convince me.
Congrats on making RU council. Yes, Sharpedo requires heavy team support. It cannot come in most neutral hits or even resisted hits from the likes of Slowing because of its rash nature. I don't see porygon-z used alot though. It is a good poke nonetheless but I believe it's not appealing to people because of its typing and its average defenses.
Honestly, I haven't found P-Z or Sharpedo to be that dangerous at all. it seems like there are plenty of bulky fighting pokemons that easily kill them. unburden hitmonlee in particular seems to dominate both of them. he uses the speed boost to easily outspeed even scarf variants of P-Z and uses mach punch to kill sharpedo.
Hitmonlee only servers as a check for both of them. He won't live 2 hydro pumps or 2 tri attacks. But like you said I don't seem to have a major problem with them. Most of them are scarfs so I can predict. Or I can sack one mon, then set up with another that resists that move. The sub variants are more trouble for me than scarfs.Munchlax is the only one to counter it at the moment. Porygon-z has amazing coverage but it doesn't have enough speed to compliment that
Sharpedo is small time.
Seriously, against anything sashed or bearing priority (ES Linoone spring to mind) all it can do is feebly protect or attempt one single hit.
With regard to that Solosis/Duosion hax-strategy, what Amarillo said is kind of the obvious way out: surely something on the team can break the Sash without an issue? All but hyperoffensive teams should come prepared with a weak or NVE move. Things like Grumpig spring to mind especially.
Seriously, against anything sashed or bearing priority (ES Linoone spring to mind) all it can do is feebly protect or attempt one single hit.
With regard to that Solosis/Duosion hax-strategy, what Amarillo said is kind of the obvious way out: surely something on the team can break the Sash without an issue? All but hyperoffensive teams should come prepared with a weak or NVE move. Things like Grumpig spring to mind especially.
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