Metagame np: Stage 1 - Building Steam With a Grain of Salt (Throh and Sneasel BANNED, read post #143)

[Grim]

I'm bored so I might as well post my thoughts about Tauros and Kecleon here.

I used to think that Tauros wasn't as broken as people were making it out to be, but I've changed my mind. 100 base attack with Sheer Force and a Life Orb hits ridiculously hard and easily bops the majority of the Pokemon in PU, the only exceptions being a few bulky Ghost-types. Tauros' gen 1 movepool is amazing, with so many options for coverage to compliment Rock Climb. Rock Climb, Zen Headbutt, Earthquake, Fire Blast is the most common set and is very effective, but there are a lot of other moves Tauros can run all of which are good in their own way. Iron Tail beats a lot of 'counters' and 'checks' such as defensive Misdreavus, Dusknoir, Piloswine, Solrock and Togetic. Thunderbolt OHKOes Pelipper and beats Swanna without having to worry about missing. Substitute beats Will-O-Wisp Misdreavus and Gourgeist lacking Foul Play and is pretty easy to set up because of the amount of switches Tauros forces. Pursuit traps non Choice Scarf Haunter as well as Psychic-types such as Beheeyem, Duosion and Kadabra and slower frail Pokemon like Chatot. Tauros also has a good Choice Scarf Intimidate set that outspeeds almost everything and speed-ties with Poliwrath and Victreebel in weather. If you run Jolly it outspeeds Golduck in rain as well and doesn't have to deal with those speed-ties. Tauros has so many options and it's very easy to get surprised by a move you didn't expect. Literally all playstyles have trouble with Tauros and have to run specific checks / counters to it, which are basically just Ghost-types, and is thus very restrictive on teambuilding and obviously overcentralizing. Most of those checks and counters are viable outside of taking on Tauros but personally I would like to be able to build a PU team without a bulky Ghost-type. Couple the above with great stats including a very good 110 Speed that allows Tauros to outrun almost all offensive Pokemon in the tier and by extent all the defensive Pokemon, and you'll understand why Tauros is 'kind of' broken. Unfortunately, Tauros' move have a very annoying tendency to miss, but inacurrate moves should not be a reason to not ban it because they will still hit the majority of the time and its bulk is not so bad that missing a move is the end. Ban Tauros for sure.

Kecleon is a Pokemon that I have admittedly not used a lot myself, but I battle against it a lot. Kecleon has an enormous amount of moves to choose from. Drain Punch, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Fake Out with a Life Orb or Assault Vest is the most common set, but just like with Tauros it has a lot other viable moves. Low Kick can be used over Drain Punch and does about 70% to Avalugg, Thunderpunch makes quick work of Pelipper, Fire Punch works with some Speed investment to avoid a burn from Gourgeist-Super and also hits bulky Grass-types such as Leafeon, Tangela and Torterra very hard, Shadow Sneak is an alternative coverage moves that is not unreliable like Sucker Punch and Fake Out, and Power-Up Punch boosts its attack stat allowing Kecleon to potentially sweep with Sucker Punch. There's also support Kecleon with moves such as Stealth Rock, Magic Coat and Recover. Kecleon is a very versatile Pokemon that can fit in all teams and will always put in work, be it as a priority revenge killer, Power-Up Punch sweeper or as a wall. However, Kecleon's terrible speed does hold it back even with its priority options. Sucker Punch is very unreliable and can easily be played around with status (Will-O-Wisp from Misdreavus or Ninetales), Substitute (Ninetales, Leafeon, Tauros) or outstalled by boosting moves (Chatot, Leafeon, Ninetales, Misdreavus, Raichu, Fraxure, Barbaracle, etc). Kecleon's low Defense coupled with its low Speed also means that physical attackers that can take a Sucker Punch, such as Carracosta, Barbaracle, Poliwrath, Sneasel, Pawniard, Mightyena, Golem and Marowak among others can defeat it rather easily. I'm not really sure about this and my mind might still change, but for now I don't think Kecleon is that broken. Do not ban Kecleon.

 

[Raiza]

well then dropping some thoughts there
Ok about Tauros, I remember that when I started playing the tier I was really surprised this thing was here, thought he would have been like nu, but he actually is in PU(hoping for not too long tho). Tauros is just basically a staple in every offense team you want to build, and it's nearly crazy not thinking of him when building on that playstyle since he's just too good for the tier at the moment, or at least in my opinion. When I started I didn't play offense much since I really liked balanced a lot so I didn't know that Tauros was such a machine by itself but actually discovered that by playing against it. 110 base speed makes him outspeed most of the tier and 100 base atk makes his Rock Climb STAB 2hko many pokémons in the tier and 95 base defense still makes him not paper against physical attackers, but his stats aren't everything this bull has got by his side, he also has a really good coverage, personally I use it like most people do, Life Orbed with Rock Climb, a really good normal STAB that can cripple almost every pokémon in the tier(apart things like ghosts), Zen Headbutt for pokémons such as Haunter and fight types like Poliwrath(does like 53% mid dmg to the full def one lol) and Throh, Earthquake which is useful against pokémons like Carracosta, Ninetales, Probopass without balloon, Pawniard and many others like electrics mons expecially for his reliability because it's the only move with 100% accuracy that Tauros runs most of the time(that's a considerable downside) and Fire Blast which helps a bit against Avalugg and bulky grass pokémons that run full Defensive investiments like Gourgeist. But Tauros can also run other moves and sets, to nominate some: Thunder can kill pretty easily Pelipper, which can check him most of the times if he runs other options, and others sets like the Choice Scarfed also fit on him because of Intimidate, trait that makes him a pretty sweet revengekiller in PU. What makes Tauros excessively good for me is also Sheer Force, because it ables Tauros to put a lot of damage in a game simply by itself, run flexible sets which become really unpredictable some times and be a cleaning monster with a little support for the various reasons I listed above so going for the fattie BAN there.

Leaving some opinions too on the second suspected Pokémon, Kecleon, well I didn't really play with Kec a lot recently but had various occasions to play against the guy on the ladder since it's used on almost every team I get paired against lol and oh he's really annoying because he has almost every time a guaranteed entry on special moves thanks to his high base Special Defense (120, a lot in the tier), also his base atk isn't that bad either coupled with Protean and a Life Orb, which makes his moves hit harder than a lot of the pokémons in PU . Kecleon also has access to some Priorities such as Sucker Punch, Fake Out and Shadow Sneak, so you just have to pick which one is the best option in regard of your team's needs and Drain Punch, that gives to kecleon more durability and changing his type to fighting, creating also a good synergy with Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak to bait Psychic pokémons in and kill them. Kecleon also could be used with Assault Vest, to totally mitigate Special Attacks, and as we also have seen by the next best thing thread this week, he can run many various sets, having access to utility moves like Stealth Rock, Magic Coat, Recover and Toxic making him a decent wall, but also not lacking a Special Coverage too if you want to suprise your opponent when he sends his physical walls against you. But all of that is balanced by his really low base speed(40 is really bad honestly) and mediocre defense(70), which makes him revengekillable by Pokémons that resist his priorities and have a decent physical offensive presence like Pawniard, bulky fighting types, Carracosta, Sneasel and various others. His low speed also puts on work Status moves(best option would be Will-O-Wisp against it, so you can negate a lot of his damage) since they can pass through the Sucker Punch and their users aren't really affected a lot by his other Priorities so I'm still not sure if I think it's better to ban him, I'll probably don't but I'll see when I'll play more with him during these times.

 

[Ranbu No Melody]

Almost any pokemon counters him complete set.
4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 179-213 (53.5 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 354-419 (153.2 - 181.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO(im using sucker punch because i dont know if does exist a way to have Pursuit with 80BP[in switch], so im using sucker punch)

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 110-133 (35.1 - 42.4%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock(and this isnt even considering Calm set)
And Grimoire God, lemme battle with you later C:

 

[Magnemite]

I feel like a lot of the anti-ban reasoning on Kecleon really exaggerates its weak points. Kecleon may be slow, but it has absurdly strong priority, great special bulk, and is very hard to wear down (especially for a Life Orb user) thanks to Drain Punch. Kecleon's Sucker Punch is able to 2HKO most offensive Pokemon in PU and even OHKO frailer ones such as Raichu. Kecleon's power and coverage mean that it is effectively impossible for most teams to switch into. While this is also a trait of other Pokemon such as Beheeyem, unlike most Pokemon as powerful as it is, Kecleon's great special bulk means that it can easily come in on weaker special attackers such as Misdreavus, and it is very hard to simply wear it down into KO range of whatever you have that can revenge it because of Drain Punch's recovery (and Sucker Punch as well). While Sucker Punch can be played around, this isn't really the most solid argument because prediction is a two-way street, and Kecleon can just OHKO whatever boosting sweeper you have with Knock Off or Drain Punch. Sure, you can burn Kecleon and it won't be able to stop you, but what Will-O-Wisp users can even switch in on Kecleon? Unless I'm forgetting something, none of them really can, and if they come in after it has KOed something, nothing's stopping Kecleon from simply switching out. Kecleon obviously isn't flawless, but its low Speed really doesn't compensate enough for the fact that it is way too effective against offense thanks to its bulk, power, and priority without having many switchins on other types of teams either.

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

To those who say Kecleon is slow: it can OTR. I know that it isn't a common set but it's effective and plays around Kecleon's main "drawback". I don't play much PU so I can't say what is surely 100% broken and what isn't but from what I spected and the limited I played, I can say both are unhealthy for the tier, especially Tauros for the reasons many stated previously.

 

[gasquakee]

Happy birthday WhiteDMist

Starting to ladder & will post thoughts on the suspects soon.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Sure, you can burn Kecleon and it won't be able to stop you, but what Will-O-Wisp users can even switch in on Kecleon?

fixed it for you ^

I think a lot of what needs to be said has already instead, but I agree that the anti-ban arguments underestimate Kecleon just because it is slow. What they're forgetting is that Kecleon has access to STAB Fake Out + Sucker Punch that can easily chip away at faster Pokemon. Sucker Punch can give you ridiculous calcs such as:

Hide

252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 234-277 (89.6 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (lol wtf)

252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 152-179 (52.2 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Kecleon Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 75-91 (25.7 - 31.2%) -- 34.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-F: 136-161 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 185-218 (64.4 - 75.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, faster Pokemon don't actually do that well against Kecleon's priority moves. Kecleon can either revenge kill them really easily with a combination of Fake Out + Sucker Punch, and even if you don't run Fake Out it still makes it ridiculously difficult for the faster Pokemon to check Kecleon because they must stay at high amounts of HP to do so.

And against slower bulkier cores, Kecleon breaks them down really easily. Probopass + Misdreavus for example gets utterly destroyed by Kecleon's STAB Drain Punch and Knock Off, Tangela + Poliwrath really hate getting Knocked Off or worn down... I don't think anybody is underestimating Kecleon's strength, but its only true counters that can switch in, take a hit and force it out while remaining healthy are... RestTalk physically defensive Throh and Poliwrath or Pelipper, maybe? Most other common defensive mons can't really do much and just get broken down: non-Impish Avalugg is 2HKOed after SR, Misdreavus and Tangela get Knocked Off and become a ton easier to overwhelm with teammates. The moment Kecleon gets a free turn, it gets a chance to break something, simple as that, because defensive Pokemon can't even switch in safely without getting badly damaged.

I'm not even talking about the other sets that this versatile Kecleon can run. ThunderPunch, SR, Fire move, OTR, AV, etc etc etc are all extremely viable and don't eat into Kecleon's effectiveness at all unlike some other lure sets.

tl;dr:
- Kek beats most walls
- Kek beats a lot of faster Pokemon

Ban Kek.

Tauros too but everyone knows that already lol

 

[ManOfMany]

I'm bored so I might as well post my thoughts about Tauros and Kecleon here.

I used to think that Tauros wasn't as broken as people were making it out to be, but I've changed my mind. 100 base attack with Sheer Force and a Life Orb hits ridiculously hard and easily bops the majority of the Pokemon in PU, the only exceptions being a few bulky Ghost-types. Tauros' gen 1 movepool is amazing, with so many options for coverage to compliment Rock Climb. Rock Climb, Zen Headbutt, Earthquake, Fire Blast is the most common set and is very effective, but there are a lot of other moves Tauros can run all of which are good in their own way. Iron Tail beats a lot of 'counters' and 'checks' such as defensive Misdreavus, Dusknoir, Piloswine, Solrock and Togetic. Thunderbolt OHKOes Pelipper and beats Swanna without having to worry about missing. Substitute beats Will-O-Wisp Misdreavus and Gourgeist lacking Foul Play and is pretty easy to set up because of the amount of switches Tauros forces. Pursuit traps non Choice Scarf Haunter as well as Psychic-types such as Beheeyem, Duosion and Kadabra and slower frail Pokemon like Chatot. Tauros also has a good Choice Scarf Intimidate set that outspeeds almost everything and speed-ties with Poliwrath and Victreebel in weather. If you run Jolly it outspeeds Golduck in rain as well and doesn't have to deal with those speed-ties. Tauros has so many options and it's very easy to get surprised by a move you didn't expect. Literally all playstyles have trouble with Tauros and have to run specific checks / counters to it, which are basically just Ghost-types, and is thus very restrictive on teambuilding and obviously overcentralizing. Most of those checks and counters are viable outside of taking on Tauros but personally I would like to be able to build a PU team without a bulky Ghost-type. Couple the above with great stats including a very good 110 Speed that allows Tauros to outrun almost all offensive Pokemon in the tier and by extent all the defensive Pokemon, and you'll understand why Tauros is 'kind of' broken. Unfortunately, Tauros' move have a very annoying tendency to miss, but inacurrate moves should not be a reason to not ban it because they will still hit the majority of the time and its bulk is not so bad that missing a move is the end. Ban Tauros for sure.

Kecleon is a Pokemon that I have admittedly not used a lot myself, but I battle against it a lot. Kecleon has an enormous amount of moves to choose from. Drain Punch, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Fake Out with a Life Orb or Assault Vest is the most common set, but just like with Tauros it has a lot other viable moves. Low Kick can be used over Drain Punch and does about 70% to Avalugg, Thunderpunch makes quick work of Pelipper, Fire Punch works with some Speed investment to avoid a burn from Gourgeist-Super and also hits bulky Grass-types such as Leafeon, Tangela and Torterra very hard, Shadow Sneak is an alternative coverage moves that is not unreliable like Sucker Punch and Fake Out, and Power-Up Punch boosts its attack stat allowing Kecleon to potentially sweep with Sucker Punch. There's also support Kecleon with moves such as Stealth Rock, Magic Coat and Recover. Kecleon is a very versatile Pokemon that can fit in all teams and will always put in work, be it as a priority revenge killer, Power-Up Punch sweeper or as a wall. However, Kecleon's terrible speed does hold it back even with its priority options. Sucker Punch is very unreliable and can easily be played around with status (Will-O-Wisp from Misdreavus or Ninetales), Substitute (Ninetales, Leafeon, Tauros) or outstalled by boosting moves (Chatot, Leafeon, Ninetales, Misdreavus, Raichu, Fraxure, Barbaracle, etc). Kecleon's low Defense coupled with its low Speed also means that physical attackers that can take a Sucker Punch, such as Carracosta, Barbaracle, Poliwrath, Sneasel, Pawniard, Mightyena, Golem and Marowak among others can defeat it rather easily. I'm not really sure about this and my mind might still change, but for now I don't think Kecleon is that broken. Do not ban Kecleon.

Actually, scarf Tauros doesn't outspeed Golduck in the rain. Jolly Scarfed Tauros hits 525 speed scarfed, while Modest Golduck hits 538 speed in the rain.

Great post though. Ban Tauros.

 

[Raiza]

Ok so yeah yesterday I build a spikestacking team around Kecleon to use his cleaning and durability paired with Pawniard and I tried it out more, got incredibly surprised that as already some people said Kecleon is over the top in PU, just had the confermation trying it by myself during these days. I actually got to first place in the ladder while doing it, since Kecleon had a really good matchup against most of the teams I got paired against and with hazards support it was just a slaughter, expecially against balanced and stalls which didn't really have the damage to bring him down before they lost at least 2 pokémons, so my opinion about him changed to BAN, i don't think i really have to post more reasoning because a lot about the pokémon in question has been already posted(including my post) and that would've been only a repetition.

 

[noobcubed]

Tauros: obvious ban. The Life Orb set is quite reminiscent of Greninja in OU - outspeeds 95% and 2HKOs 95% of the metagame, without even really having to worry about 4MSS, and is thus incredibly limiting for teams of all archetypes. Can't say much about the Choice Scarf set, that's probably not broken but also I've never used and rarely seen it because Life Orb exists and why wouldn't you want to use that?

Kecleon: I'm really not sure about this guy. I must say I've noticed that more and more Life Orb is being used over Assault Vest, though both are good. Kec does have 4MSS more than Tauros, but it's still really easy to fit on a team since you use whatever moves patch up the hole the rest of your team doesn't cover. I don't like to face Kecleon but not convinced that is enough of an argument for a ban.

Gonna play around with Trick Room Kecleon while I still can :)

 

[MZ]

I'll make a longer post later, for now I'll just say that, unlike tauros, kecleon can fit on pretty much every archetype and be good. Just the standard LO set is incredibly valuable for every team with fake out+sucker punch being an easy stop to any rampaging sweepers. It's like garbodor where there isn't a reason not to use it on practically every team.

 

[trc]

First of all, I definitely think Kecleon and Tauros are broken and worthy of being banned from the tier. Tauros is pretty obvious as others have said, but I'll go over it quickly. Life Orb Tauros is easily the most broken set since it is a wallbreaker with very few switch-ins, however unlike most wallbreakers it's very fast so offensive teams have very few switch-ins that aren't outsped and 2HKOed. Life Orb + Sheer Force when combined with Tauros's movepool give it all the tools it needs to dismantle every playstyle, even the most defensive of teams have trouble with it. Tauros can only run 4 moves, however these can easily be tailored to lure in common checks so Tauros has almost no true counters. The most common LO set is Rock Climb / Earthquake / Fire Blast / Zen Headbutt, and these calcs show the damage it can do to balanced / defensive teams.

• 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 185-218 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Avalugg: 148-177 (37.6 - 45%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Roselia: 307-361 (100.9 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lickilicky: 218-257 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

These might seem cherry picked considering some are only 2HKOes with SR but this just goes to show that the standard stall core of Poliwrath / Avalugg / Roselia / Lickilicky gets destroyed. There are other Pokemon that typically fit onto here such as Piloswine, Misdreavus, Pelipper, Solrock, Carracosta, or Dusclops, all of which are potentially good Tauros checks, but Pelipper and Solrock are the only ones with Recovery and they lose to Thunderbolt / Iron Tail respectively. While these mean giving up another move, the fact is that Tauros does its job of luring in its sole reliable defensive answer and now a teammate can capitalize on that. Not to mention, Tauros is so good with Spikes, which are still fairly common and aid it a lot with its goal of wearing everything down. Offensive teams have no answers to it that don't give up offensive presence outside of revenge killing it, which isn't always the easiest due to its Speed and requires something to be sacced. Choice Scarf Tauros itself demolished offensive teams once the steel / rock / ghost is worn down, which usually isn't hard due to their lack of recovery, and the only common Pokemon of those types are Pawniard, Probopass, Misdreavus, Haunter, and Aurorus, all of which get worn down by Tauros's other moves. Kecleon is absurdly broken so I'm not going to talk about it, it destroys everything with its power + coverage + priority + move unpredictability and Drain Punch even stops it from being Life Orb stalled.

 

[Kushalos]

These two are both broken:

Tauros has its amazing speed, power and versatility to destroy a huge portion of the tier by simply muscling through the bulky stuff with LO Sheer Force boosted moves and outspeeding the fast frail stuff. It's scarse counters like Piloswine and Misdreavus are easy to wear down because of the lack of Leftovers recovery and dependance on easy to Knock Off Eviolite.

Kekkers is so fucking strong with Protean, oml. With just Fighting/Dark coverage is fucks the tier big time. The only things that can really take on its moves are Fairies like Togetic and Clefairy, who both depend a lot on their Eviolite which gets Knocked Off on the switch-in. Hard to revenge-kill because of powerful STAB Sucker Punch and high special defense.

I've also seen these two a lot on the same team, as they form an amazing normal spam core able to wear down each others counters with ease allowing one of them to deal huge damage or straightup sweep the opposing team. Gonna have to say ban for both of them.(Especially kekkers, this one takes priority for banning imo.)

 

[Ununhexium]

Tauros and Kecleon Suspect Test

I actually thought I'd never see these words

Galbia edit: I'll let this slide but please stay on topic

 

[Anty]

Since this thread hasnt had much suspect discussion, and its (hopefully) been agreed that both pokes are broken af, i am going to talk about my favourite pokes to use in the meta rn.

This thing is underrated af right now. Base 116 speed is god like in this meta, especcially considering every goddam team is either balance or offensive, this just shreds the meta, as it beats a ton of offensive mons (0 switch ins), and what are the defensive pokes peoplea are running? Togetic, Pelipper, Poliwrath, all of which are severely crippled by taking this pokes STAB or coverage. The only poke i can think of that can switch into this is piloswine, which is 3hko'd by LO hp grass/overheat then two hp grass's, and probopass can tank several hits, but just gets pivot'd on.
E: Here is a replay where zeb puts in a lot of work

The other poke i love to use right now may seem weird, but is in fact amazing

set

Floatzel @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Switcheroo / Surf / Focus Blast

That is right, choice SPECS floatzel. Base 85 special attack doesnt seem so bad now with a 1.5 multiplier with a STAB base 110 move along with enough coverage to hit resists and 2hko the entire meta. Again, high speed is amazing in this meta, and base 115 suits this. More offensive based teams are in absolute shambles in trying to switch into this monster, and all balance ones can do is cry as their pelipper gets bop'd by HP electric (seriously, that replay is a good example of how threatening it is). Run splash plate or life orb on this to kill all the grass types who try and take this monster one after sacking a sixth of their team to a hydro pump. Specs ice beam OHKOs Tangela, Specs HP electric OHKOs Pelipper and 2HKO Poliwrath (1 and 3 with hazards) <- the perfect team mate for physical attackers.

Fast mons are amazing in this meta (yay sticky webs), and they are about to get better now another fast poke, and priority spammer are (hopefully) getting banned. Also if any one else wants to talk about good pokes/anything to do with the meta but isnt about suspect, please post, an(t)ything that promotes discussion is wanted.

 

[Raiza]

I'm not gonna talk about my favourite pokémons to use because they are pretty standard and you probably know them really well already so I'll debate about one of the best playstyles at the moment in the tier which is Hazardstacking Offense, since I'm really experienced with it and the goal of this thread is to also talk about metagame trends/playstyles. The Hazardstacking strategy was already good before the tier shift but with new entries it became one of the most popular if not the best playstyle in PU.
The name basically tells how it works: it's based on stacking toxic/spikes/Stealth Rock and managing hazard control with your setters putting pressure on opponent's team , expecially luring the defogger/spinner which has to enter most of the time, creating various holes for your sweepers/cleaners, including Tauros

and Kecleon

.
We have pretty good examples of Hazardstacking Offense teams on the subforum already, on the Sample Teams thread, including mine, and we know it's a pretty consistent strategy to rely on.

Team Examples:
TONE114 's Hazard Stack HO
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pu-sample-teams-read-post-50.3519428/page-3#post-6005783

Raiza. 's Hazardstacking Bulky Offense
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pu-sample-teams-read-post-50.3519428/page-3#post-6048971

Going into roles in a hazardstacking team your team will look most of the time like this: Spike Setter-SR Setter-Defiant User-Spinblocker-Defog/Rapid Spin user or Revengekiller-Sweeper/Cleaner. This is the classic pattern of a simple hazardstacking team, of course it's subject to changes following your preferences.

i talk about popular spikes setters

Most popular spikes setters are Roselia

and Whirlipede

: Roselia most of the time is seen on Balanced/Bulky Offense because she's more durable throughout the game thanks to her decent defenses boosted by Eviolite, access to Synthesis and good damage output thanks to her double STABs, also having a lot of utility with Sleep Powder/Stun Spore. Whirlipede instead it's good on Hyper Offense because it's used as a Suicide Lead, being able to put a lot of Hazards on the field with his high speed with Speed Bost, Focus Sash and then sometimes putting one of your enemy's mons at 1 HP with Endeavor.

i talk about popular sr users

Along with them there is a Stealth Rock setter to keep up the pressure on ground immunities, there are really a lot of viable pokémons that can fullfill this role, but the most seen now are Probopass

, Carracosta

and Piloswine

. I'll talk about Probopass since he is the new guy dropped from NU, and in my opinion this is one of the best drops for the tier. With it PU gains a really good Pivot capable of setting Rocks on the field, having a great bulk and trapping Steels with Magnet Pull. Probopass also has a good coverage that can able him to run different sets making him fit in many teams' strategies so I highly suggest to you using it.

i talk about popular defiant users and spinblockers

Of course you have to punish your opponent if he defogs/Rapid Spins away all of your precious stacks of spikes/rocks from the field so most of the time you will usually couple a Defiant user and an Anti-Spinner on your team. There are only two Defiant users in the tier: Pawniard

and Purugly

. Pawniard is another one of the drops NU gave us and another good Dark Type PU got. It is good expecially on these typologies of team because you can make your opponent think two times if he wants to defog or not, since a +2 Atk Pawniard isn't too nice to have against. Also helping the team with a Priority since hazardstacking usually lacks fastpaced pokémons on bulky offense and balanced that wanted an alternative to Purugly. Talking about Purugly, its only niche now is its high speed and access to fake out since on the other sides it is completely outclassed by Pawniard, Purugly also gets walled by a lot of new drops mentioning Probopass, Armaldo and Torkoal so I would say it isn't worth using it anymore.

Going into Spinblockers I think the best ones in this category are Haunter

and Misdreavus

: Haunter lost a lot of potential since the last tier shift, having now to rely on different sets to succeed through the game because his standard ones are now completely walled by Pawniard and Probopass, but remains a decent option as a Spinblocker on more offensive teams thanks to his high speed and dmg output, even if now he cant switch in on some spinners in the Tier.
Misdreavus on the other side gained usage since Haunter's drop in popularity but it is still seen more on Bulky Offense and Balanced teams thanks to his utility(mentioning the defensive set with Foul Play,Wow,Pain Split and Taunt there because I found it really good on defensive oriented teams) and decent defensive stats with eviolite, still carrying fire power if you run Nasty Plot.

I will not talk in depth about the last two slots since most of the times you will fit in a revengekiller such as Scarf Mr.Mime

if your team lacks priorities and fast paced pokémons or a rapid spinner/defogger by yourself such as Pelipper

/ Swanna

/ Togetic

or Armaldo

/ Avalugg

if you have necessity to clean your field after you lured enemy's team enough to put your cleaner/sweeper(blatant examples are Tauros and Kecleon but we already talked A LOT about them in previous posts) at work, which will take the last slot in the team.

 

[Grim]

Just posting to say that I changed my mind on Kecleon. Only when I started building a stall team I realized how hard to truly counter Kecleon actually is, due to Protean and its incredible movepool. Even Clefairy, which is supposed to be a solid counter, can get screwed over by Knock Off + Thunderpunch or just (lol) Iron Tail. Couple that with its ability to rip through offensive teams with Life Orb boosted Fake Out's and Sucker Punches and it's kind of broken.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

It seems like I'm the only one who's thoroughly underwhelmed by Kecleon, both in the previous and current metas, both facing and using it.

I'll talk first about when I've used it. I've used a fully offensive Life Orb attacking set and I feel that the posts talking about how strong Kecleon is overestimate it's power. We all know that Kecleon is slow but that's never more apparent than when it comes in for free and has to take 70-80% from the op because it's Sucker Punch can't KO. Consistently, I've found Kecleon to be simply too slow to take advantage of Protean effectively. It will get 2 shotted by an opponent (if not one shotted!) and, while it may KO an opponent thereafter, will struggle to get 2 kills. Against offensive teams it usually isn't a big deal for them to sacrifice whatever is in to cripple Kecleon for the remainder of the match. It isn't uncommon for bulkier or defensive teams to have a mon that can take a hit from Kecleon as hit it back hard as well, for example, Torterra off the top of my head. I had a brief dalliance with special defensive Kecleon and it just sucked lol.

Now I'll talk about facing it, and a lot of what I'll say is similar to above. Using an offensive team Kecleon is no more threatening to me than a Spinda. If I let it run rampant it's going to do damage but a single attack and it's not doing anything for the remainder of the game. As said previously, Kecleon can't switch in on shit and so it's coming in for free after a KO. Usually my mon is at full health in this situation and thus Sucker Punch can't KO. Assuming I'm not fighting weak, one attack will cripple Kecleon at the cost of one member of my team, which on offense isn't a big deal as you've just traded one mon for 1.5 (trade goes even after the sacrificial Kec Sucker Punch). Haven't faced too many Kecleon's with my stall team but I can't recall any Kecleon being particularly threatening vs my phys def stall core of Avalugg+Poliwrath(standard)+Carracosta, with the exception of PuP Kecleon.

That's a bunch of rambley situational shit because I haven't eaten yet but the gist of it is this:

1. Kecleon is really good at forcing 1 for 1 or 2 for 2 trades
2. Kecleon has a large movepool that can allow it to beat common checks (Low Kick, Power-up Punch, Fire Punch for instance). The opportunity cost to this is failing to beat other common Pokemon (if you drop one of Knock/Drain) or losing to offensive pressure (if you drop priority).
3. Kecleon is too frail and not quite powerful enough to consistently force 2 for 1 or 1.5 for 1 situations
4. It's difficult to find a true hard counter, but there are plenty of checks spearheaded by generic offensive pressure

In summary, Kecleon is a powerful Pokemon but fails to have enough of the total package to be ban worthy.

I'll note here that I was running Thunderpunch over Fake out because if you aren't using Thunderpunch congratulations you've just found yourself a counter

calcs

252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 99-117 (30.6 - 36.2%)
252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 81-96 (25 - 29.7%)
252+ Atk Kecleon Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 42-49 (13 - 15.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever

I understand where the pro-ban sentiment comes from but if I were voting today as part of the council I could not in good conscience ban it. I would vote no ban to Kecleon do to being consistently underwhelmed by it both in using and in facing it.



wrt to Tauros I think it's manageable but likely over the line as far as power goes so I wouldn't oppose a ban

I'll also make a note that I tend to be conservative in banning as I believe most powerful Pokemon are banned by kknee-jerk reactions without time given to adapt to the threat. I will ban when a Pokemon is hilariously OP (see: BW RU Cresselia) or too powerful/overcentralising after adaptation (see: BW RU Hail, Nidoqueen)


edit: I'll make another note that when I reference offense I mean physically oriented offense, specially oriented offense is mediocre in this (and the previous) meta

 

[gasquakee]

I've already spoken on little chameleon so Ill just discuss Tauros.

Tauros is a scary mon in the tier. It has a great attack stat coupled with sheer force and one of the highest base speeds in the tier. Now if sheer force didnt give it the ability to run the amount of sets it can it would be a little bit less scary. The things that it struggles with it can just run coverage for(Pelipper and Avalugg).

4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 291-343 (90 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Avalugg: 148-177 (37.6 - 45%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 244-289 (62 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
^inferior but thats whats on the ladder

TRC's Calcs

• 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 185-218 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Roselia: 307-361 (100.9 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lickilicky: 218-257 (51.4 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 169-200 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Loads of the defensive mons in the tier cant even switch into life orb Tauros. (its most common and imo best set)

In short:
Offensive teams can't switch in.
Stall gets destroyed by coverage.
And balance has immense trouble switching in while being punished for it.

It threatens all playstyles equally and immensely.

This was pretty obvious but I would say Ban the Bull. (come back bouffalant ;_;)

 

[WhiteDMist]

Since almost everyone has posted reasons to ban, I'm going to just compile all the reasons made so far to ban or keep Kecleon and Tauros:

Tauros
Ban: Sheer Force with good options to abuse with it.
Amazing base 110 Speed.
Good coverage options to allow Tauros to pick its checks and counters (Iron Tail, Fire Blast, Substitute, Thunderbolt/Thunder).
Can run a Choice Scarf set with either of its viable abilities, making it one of the better revenge killers in the tier.
Moderately bulky, at least enough to tank an average hit.
A wallbreaker that is fast enough to also threaten offensive teams.
Counters and checks generally lack reliable recovery, or are hit by a coverage move (Avalugg).

Do Not Ban: Bad accuracy in moves (poor reason).


Kecleon
Ban: Protean gives it STAB on all its moves, and it has a decent base Atk.
Array of priority moves in Fake Out, Sucker Punch, and Shadow Sneak.
Has STAB Drain Punch to enhance its longevity, and STAB Knock Off to cripple opposing teams.
Threatens both offensive and defensive teams, nothing can switch in on it safely.
Has decent special bulk and Recover/Drain Punch to maintain its HP.
Can still support team with Stealth Rock, or boost itself with Power-Up Punch.
Is super versatile, and can change its moveset to fit your team specifically.
Can usually get at least 1 KO.

Do Not Ban: Very slow, relies a lot on priority.
Poor physical bulk, cannot switch in.
Easily worn down by strong attacks and Life Orb, forcing it to keep trying to recover HP
Few counters, but many common checks.
Large movepool, but has 4MSS since it cannot cover everything.


I think I got everything, please feel free to add more arguments that have been missed. For objectivity's sake, let's also try and keep in mind opposing arguments. I don't expect anyone to change their minds, but please to not dismiss the opposing side.

If you haven't posted your thoughts, please do so soon. Remember, we are still looking for people for the Rotating Council, so keep participating!

 

[MZ]

I said I'd post longer thoughts like a week ago so rip. While there isn't much point in talking about why I think Tauros should be banned at this point, kecleon has gotten some anti-ban hype that I really don't agree with. For one thing, AV kek can easily switch into most special attackers, and this is a very good set that I haven't seen mentioned. It's not nearly as threatening as LO kek, but it's still an excellent team supporter that kinda got ignored. My main issue with Kecleon is that it forces in the same mons on every single team. Unless you have a throh, you're relying on Jumpluff, Poliwrath, Avalugg and Gourgeist to check it for you, and that makes it very easy for kek to break teams for mons like Carracosta to sweep. It's incredibly good at wearing down teams due to its lack of solid counters outside of Throh. This is really important for why I feel that we should ban kecleon because, in addition to all of the other good things about it, it's incredibly good at forcing in and eliminating specific mons, making balance a lot harder to pull off. Also, while thunder punch has incredible utility, fake out+sucker punch just destroys offense, killing off tauros, raichu, ninjask, stoutland, sneasel, ninetales, etc. Yes you get countered by pelipper, poliwrath and togetic, but I totally disagree that not running thunder punch is stupid when fake out + sucker punch eliminates so many offensive mons and helps to patch up kek's low speed and defense.

 

[2xTheTap]

I think that a few Kecleon movesets that aren't quite the standard, but are still good in this meta, need to be emphasized in order to more fully illustrate why Kecleon is broken.

Don Honchkrorleone already mentioned it, and I already posted about it in the Next Best Thing thread, but Kecleon's OTR set is huge in overcoming the reasons for anti-banning, specifically those which Texas stated in his post (i.e. "I've found Kecleon to be simply too slow to take advantage of Protean effectively.") Its offensive Trick Room set reverses this, and is able to OHKO or 2HKO faster physical threats that would've otherwise OHKO'd Kecleon (the calcs are here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-next-best-thing-lickilicky-voting.3526025/page-6 ). In a nutshell, Kecleon becomes able to 2HKO Piloswine, Marowak, Leafeon, and even OHKO Barbaracle, Sneasel and Tauros (all of which beat Kecleon normally at full HP). For a quick reference, this is the set:

Kecleon @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Sucker Punch
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off

Another set that is huge in mitigating some of Kecleon's flaws is actually Zard's PuP / Sub set in that same thread. One debilitating flaw that Kecleon has is that it's difficult for it to avoid being burned by faster ghosts (e.g. Misdreavus / Gourgeist variants) without switching. Substitute is therefore a natural choice, as Kecleon forces so many switches with its hard hitting Sucker Punch anyway. A +1 Kecleon behind a sub destroys most of the meta (save Infiltrator Jumpluff) and avoids status, so I think this is another solid, yet often overlooked option that proves Kecleon can overcome its flaws with only a slight change to its moveset.

Kecleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Protean
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Power-Up Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off

And lastly, the elemental punches allow Kecleon a high degree of unpredictability that can bypass its normal counters (Poliwrath / Pelipper with Thunder punch), bulky threats that are faster than Kecleon (Marowak / Torterra with Ice Punch), or other bulky answers (Gourgeist-Super / Tangela with Fire Punch). Fire Punch to me is an especially interesting option as Fire Punch + Protean changes Kecleon to a fire type, thus giving it temporary immunity to burns as well.

Kecleon @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Punch / Fire Punch / Ice Punch
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off

In conclusion, only Trick Room, elemental punches and Substitute have been touched on in this post, yet there are still many other viable options for Kecleon to work around its normal checks and counters. While it's not unbeatable and has some solid answers like Throh and Jumpluff, its versatility allows it to overthrow most of the meta. For this reason, I would vote ban for Kecleon.

 

[WhiteDMist]

UPDATE

OK, so there is only 48 hours until this test is over!

If you think you qualified for the Rotating Council, please PM me your ladder alt req screenshot (GXE score of at least 75 and Glicko-1 of 1750 ± 80 or better) AS WELL AS your posts relating to the CURRENT metagame. This does not have to be only about the suspect test, or even in this thread, as long as it is relevant and shows that you have sufficient knowledge of the metagame. Feel free to PM me these reqs even if you think you are a long shot: even if you are not able to be a part of this Rotating Council round, I would be glad to give you advice for how to improve your forum presence.

EDIT: Just wanted to point out that these would only be candidates, and that the rest of the PU Council will add in their own thoughts, especially since we are also looking for activity in the PU Room and/or #pu.

 

[WhiteDMist]

The Tauros and Kecleon suspect test is over! Here are the ones who qualified for Rotating Council: Raiza. Texas Cloverleaf GasQuake 2xTheTap GrimoireGod trc Megazard Z

Along with the Council: Dell galbia Magnemite scorpdestroyer Montsegur Robert Alfons Anty

PM me your votes alone with a short description for each suspect. I'll post the results in 48 hours, or when I receive all the votes (whichever comes first).

 

[WhiteDMist]

Tauros and Kecleon are Banned!

Once the first week in March is over, we'll likely hold another suspect test. For now, enjoy the metagame while you can, and post about what Pokemon you would like to see suspected.