Tomahawk, Sawk has Taunt and Bulk Up access as well, so saying it has no boosting move is a blatant lie.
Also it is misleading to mention Zen Headbutt, since Sawk has access to Zen Headbutt (and various other moves you mentioned) too. No STAB, sure, and it is a contact move, but it 2HKO's Vileplume anyway (other Poison-types get smacked by Mold Breaker Earthquake).
Overall yes, Gallade does have a few things over Sawk, but once you actually list it out, it really isn't as much. Sawk still has the better abilities, and a better Speed Tier. Also pointing out that Gallade has Knock Off is a moot point since Sawk always runs it as well. Sturdy is definetly not situational, due to the fact hazard removal in NU is pretty easy right now with pokemon like Xatu, Togetic, and Kabutops being amon the top mons. Sturdy Sawk is one of the best revenge killers in the tier, as it is guaranteed to live a hit, and deal a lot of Damage with Banded Close Combats that really nothing in the tier wants to take. The speed tier is also a factor due to the fact that Gallade is forced to speed tie with both Kabutops and Mesprit if it runs Jolly, and is outsped by a lot more things if it chooses to run Adamant like Sawk can afford to do, due to the higher speed tier. Overall, I am still on the fence about Gallade, and hopefully more arguments in the thread shows me which direction to vote.
Ok it seems I underrated Sawk's movepool... apologies there. My post was a bit wrong and not great but I was just quick to reply because I think Gallade is amazing... (not implying it is broken or anything ofc just think it is really good)
Though tbf some of these aren't really as good on Sawk as they are on Gallade. Bulk Up on Sawk is not as good as on Gallade, same for stuff like ThunderPunch and Poison Jab on a non-boosting set aren't as threatening. They are just to remove something and then sweep. Zen Headbutt is especially irrelevant on Sawk of course.
The extra Speed allows Sawk to outrun Gallade, Kabutops, and Mesprit and to tie with opposing Sawk and Pinsir. That's kind of a big deal.
Most of the "advantages" you listed are irrelevant. Sawk's lack of secondary STAB doesn't matter when it also has Zen Headbutt to 2HKO everything it needs to. The extra special bulk on Gallade is nice, but Sawk effectively has better all-around bulk because of Sturdy, which absolutely isn't only good in the lead position. As long as you keep hazards cleared (which isn't hard to do), Sawk beats everyone offensive Pokemon in the tier 1v1.
As for the rest of the stuff you listed, Leaf Blade, Shadow Sneak, Thunder Punch, Taunt, and Poison Jab are irrelevant because Sawk also gets those. Bulk Up is less irrelevant because even though Sawk also gets it, Gallade obviously uses it better. Will-O-Wisp seems bad because Gallade is slow and would rather spend free turns hitting shit hard or knocking off its checks' and counters' items.
Sturdy really makes all the difference because it allows Sawk to be good against offensively oriented teams while still easily breaking fat balanced teams. Even outside of that, Sawk doesn't NEED to boost to be effective. Gallade does because if you run Choice Band, you're basically running a slower Sawk without Sturdy that does better against what? Togetic? Life Orb still hits hard without boosting, sure, but it doesn't 2HKO resists with Close Combat in the same way Sawk does because the extra power from Choice Band is huge. If a non-Choiced Sawk was good, we'd have been running non-Choiced Sawk long before Gallade came around.
I don't think Sawk is almost better than Gallade. I think it is better than Gallade.
Well I think we disagree because it feels like you are comparing CB Sawk to CB Gallade. Obv my post wasn't good I'll admit that, but I think Gallade all around is better than Sawk.
CB Sawk vs CB Gallade? I can admit that Sawk can be better at times, the STAB on ZH isn't as relevant etc and Mold Breaker etc is quite useful.
However, there is no set Sawk has that compares to SD Gallade, or BU Gallade also. I don't think ThunderPunch, Poison Jab, Shadow ASneak listed are irrelevant. I mean, Those are for the 4th move on the SD set which is mainly what I was talking about. SD / Knock Off / Close Combat / 4th move. It usually is ZH but it is not needed imo, so you can slot in other moves. The ones mentioned then OHKO pmuch anything, leaving no real counters left.
About the Speed difference, you can't really include Sawk and Gallade in that comparison. Mesprit doesn't always run Max Speed, Kabutops is Adamant regularly (tohugh tbf that is an advantge to Adamant Sawk I will def admit), Pinsir is true also. But that's not enough reason for me to declare Sawk as better.
"If a non-Choiced Sawk was good, we'd have been running non-Choiced Sawk long before Gallade came around." I agree. But Gallade can set up more regularly with that beast SpDef, threatening a lot of stuff and actually has SD to set up. Bulk Up Sawk doesn't compare to Gallade. I'm not trying to argue CB Gallade > CB Sawk (might be though.. Trick is good) but SD Gallade doesn't compare to any Sawk set.
Gallade is way better against defensive teams. It's even against offensive teams, slightly edging towards Sawk perhaps. But that's just my opninion
While I do agree that for the most part the comparisons between Sawk and Gallade are a bit over exaggerated in Sawk's favor because of its Speed and abilities, a lot of the moves and qualities you pointed out about Gallade are not really valid or true. Abilities are a pretty big difference when Sawk's abilities are much more useful and practical than Gallade's abilities, which are fairly situational. Mold Breaker, like you said, is actually quite useful given the decent amount of Levitating mons in the tier, most notably Weezing. Sturdy is a great ability that given you can remove hazards allows Sawk to check any offensive threat if you can preserve it to full HP. Realistically, this is much more useful and practical than Gallade's abilities. So what Gallade has a secondary STAB? Sawk has Zen Headbutt as well, and it threatens Poison types almost just as much. How does it have a better defensive typing? Its typing leaves it neutral to Dark type attacks, unlike the others which resist it. Out of all the moves you listed, only Swords Dance, Will-O-Wisp, Trick, Leaf Blade, Shadow Sneak, and Trick are exclusive to Gallade. Will-O-Wisp and Trick I'll give credit for, but Leaf Blade and Shadow Sneak are pretty sub par. Leaf Blade only hits Quagsire which is already 2HKOed by Close Combat most of the time. Shadow Sneak is extremely weak, even on super effective hits. Sawk also has Thunder Punch, Bulk Up, Taunt, and Poison Jab - whether or not it can utilize them as effectively as Gallade can, in the case of Bulk Up moreso, the point still stands. I feel that while Gallade's versatility is somewhat underrated at times, it can be pushed over the top at times.
Sturdy is great of course. I'm not at all claiming Gallade has agood abilities. And come on, you guys are ignoring STAB on Zen Headbutt? Ok let me show you a calc or a few then:
252+ Atk Choice Band Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 374-444 (102.7 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 250-296 (68.6 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 336-396 (94.9 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 224-264 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 266-314 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 178-210 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
STAB matters! I mean come on..
I'm not claiming it has better defensive typing per se. Not resisting Dark sucks, but it's not thát common (Sneasel mainly). Fighting resistance is nice because you can set up ons tuff like Choiced Sawk..
Leaf Blade and Shadow Sneak I'm not saying are great moves, but they emphasize what I think makes Gallade so scary: slap it on SD as 4th move and a potential counter for Gallade is not counter anymore (Quagsire or Fletchinder).
Sawk can't really use ThunderPunch, Poison Jab in the way I meant, as in stopping a counter on the SD set.
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