The support isn't there from the qualified pool of voters, so a Tera Blast ban is off the table. I guess it's your choice, but you'd be praying for tiering action that will never come. If you think Volcarona if problematic with Tera Blast, you should vote to ban Volcarona.
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Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 12 - Moth To A Flame
- Thread starter Finchinator
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Going to write my own post later, but I heavily disagree with these arguments. The argument that Volcarona is only broken because of tera blast and so tera blast is the problem is irrelevant because tera blast isn't being discussed right now. As well, nothing in the tier is able to exploit tera blast or tera to the extent that volcarona can; its like arguing that rage fist is the problem with annihilape so we should keep annihilape in the tier. It's irrelevant; tera blast is a tool most mons use fine that volcarona totally exploits to run away with games. This isn't a tera blast suspect, and we should vote under the assumption that tera blast is staying (because volcarona is the only mon that uses it like this).
As well, your second argument assuming tera blast being allowed is also flawed; literally every pro-ban speaker here has acknowledged that counters like blissey or clod exist. The issue is that these are the only true counters and they ONLY fit on hard stall, and that if you aren't literally playing stall, you're going to have a team that loses to a few random volc sets, which isn't healthy for the metagame.
As well, spd garganacl is great but not nearly as good as you think it is in this mu because volcarona can just tera out of its rock weakness into somethign that isn't taking a ton from salt cure, and can just keep qd'ing and roosting off the damage. This is important because Garg is really passive and so it can just get boosted on by volcarona. Also AV primarina is like a dogshit set that takes a ton of hazard damage every time it comes in but that's personal, the issue is that while volc can't counter every mon it can pick and choose its counters; it only really needs a neutral or positive tera blast to deal with this because it can get +2 spdef before AV prim has a chance to attack it and now surf does less then half, and it needs to pick between to actually damage volc at that point or noise to do little damage and stop potential healing for a turn, which volc can still avoid after 1 turn to either re-heal or giga drain because it will outspeed AV prim.
EDIT: Also for arguments that Valiant might be broken without volc; if it is, we'll ban it, but frankly SD is its scariest set rn imo and it cooks volc. More importantly though, we don't know if it will be broken without volc, and if it is, action will be taken against it. Keeping a broken threat in the tier because it keeps another broken in check is a bad idea and not good tiering.
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Nah I get that and read the thread it's just my mere 2 cents, im always extremely anti-ban anything or minimalist when it comes to modifying a tier, after I get my games in I will probably decide and give my reasoning in the thread if Im able to meet the requirements. With finals coming up I may not be able to make it
It is unfortunate, but not surprising, how this thread has devolved from Volcarona suspect thread into personal pro and con lists of Volcarona. This goes for both sides.
Some messages even go deeper, focusing their arguments on theorymon about a post-Volcarona tier where Iron Valiant or Enamorus would be broken (spoiler: neither were even close to broken last time Volcarona got banned). Things like this are why suspect threads continue to be seen as a joke throughout the community honestly.
Some messages even go deeper, focusing their arguments on theorymon about a post-Volcarona tier where Iron Valiant or Enamorus would be broken (spoiler: neither were even close to broken last time Volcarona got banned). Things like this are why suspect threads continue to be seen as a joke throughout the community honestly.
Exactly, my point is that I don't think Val is unhealthy and I don't think whether or not it is after a volc ban matters to the discussion.
Pais also talked about keeping Volcarona with the hopes for a Solgaleo unban suspect when you have repeatedly indicated to not theorymon about what happens to the tier after a ban, and given you've ruled out further Uber drops for now, it seems like an attempt to either fish for likes or just blatant disregarding what the OU Council has decided on.
Yea, that's just nonsense altogether; I would ignore his post. There is no discussion of any Ubers for multiple months and, even then, it will take lots of community support and metagame shifting for that to be a reality. Never saying never of course, but that logic is a leap and best to disregard.
I'll admit I'm surprised to see which pokemon have been getting suspected including volcarona. I'm not the highest rank or anything but still don't really see it much.
Guess I'll ask this here since idk where else to ask it and the on the radar hasn't been updated in a bit it seems, but is kingambit and terastilization getting looked at again at some point? Both of them seem like a lot more prominent threats and if I'm not mistaken both were fairly close last time to the ban (at least tera was)
Guess I'll ask this here since idk where else to ask it and the on the radar hasn't been updated in a bit it seems, but is kingambit and terastilization getting looked at again at some point? Both of them seem like a lot more prominent threats and if I'm not mistaken both were fairly close last time to the ban (at least tera was)
I suppose a simpler way to put the premise of the suspect test would be:
Don’t base your ban decision based on how it would affect the OU metagame. Base your ban decision on if you think Volcarona is too good at its role or not.
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as someone who has experience with solgaleo around ou level mons for two generations now, yeah no that thing will actually cook volcarona alive with tera legal and basically every other legal mon in the tier, either with physical sets or calm mind because yes its good with both. also please remember that solg has tusk level physical bulk and a higher speed and attack stat while ALSO having recovery, great special bulk, a stupid good base typing, and a disgustingly wide movepool on both sides. thinking it would be healthy is respectfully delusional.
also we shouldnt be arguing for keeping something bc it checks something even more broken than it because 1) thats completely irrelevant and 2) is bad tiering philosophy. lets keep it to the current meta and why its actually an issue if anything (set flexibility, ability to run away with games from slight misplays, unpredictability on an endgame cleaner etc etc, which are all valid reasons)
precisely. allow me to put it in more lengthy and complicated terms that no one will read:
sometimes a ban does, in fact, negatively affect the metagame in the immediate short term (for example, maybe the banned mon was holding back something that turns out to be way more oppressive than the original thing), but ultimately it's always better to get something broken out of the tier than to keep it. likewise, sometimes the lack of a ban can negatively affect things in the short term for some reason or other (for example, maybe it's something super new that the meta hasn't had time to develop around and is still running over the whole tier post-suspect), but ultimately it's always better to keep something non-broken than to ban it. any immediate negative consequences of a given suspect decision can be cleaned up through further tiering action and natural meta evolution, so those aren't the criteria we should be looking at. long-term consequences are important but impossible to accurately predict, so we can't factor those in either, except in the sense that keeping something broken in the tier or banning something not broken tends to have very negative long-term consequences. so we should only be looking at whether or not volcarona is broken now, in the current meta, and not whether it would be a "better" or "worse" meta with volc gone
With all due respect, the problem with these listed defensive traits are that they still don't change up Volcarona's goal and how they win games. Giving them Wisp or Tera Blast doesn't really change the showdown of a pre-built counter vs. the bug that did a funny jig for two turns. Many other mons in the tier have to radically change their gameplan if they want to run specific tech or builds to fill certain niches. SD Gliscor has to forgo some of their powerful walling prowess, MB Glimmora has to give up reliable hazard spreading, Utility Tusk misses out on instantaneous speed control, Boots Zamazenta lacks passive recovery and snowballing potential... you get the idea.
I don't feel that Volcarona's power is instantly recognizable, and that helps explain why there's been a historical divide on their pressence in the tier, but there's something that just doesn't feel right about a Pokemon who can create so many "Nuh-Uh!" scenarios against checks and counters that need to adapt more than Volcarona themselves.
Support for acting on Terastalization decreases with every survey among the qualified pool of survey takers, so it's very unlikely.
As for Kingambit, it's unlikely it will be suspected again unless several other Pokemon are suspected and banned, such as Gouging Fire, Volcarona, Ogerpon-Wellspring, and Raging Bolt. And Raging Bolt has 0 chance of being banned and is widely agreed to be a balanced mon.
Got the reqs using a (very weird) Stall, 37-6 result. None of the 6 loses were to Volcarona, which is not surprising, Stall is the one style that pretty much always autowins vs Volcarona. Therefore, my run is not to be taken relevant to the discussion. Personally, I like Stall being a good style and if someone votes Do Not Ban on Volcarona for this reason, I won,t be surprised.
That being said, when at the beginning of the generation we have chosen the path to preserve the Tera mechanic, we knew that it would mean banning lots of Mons that abuse it way too well. Volcarona should be one of those Mons. Grass, Fire, Water, Bug, Ground, Poison, Ghost, Dragon, Steel, Fairy... we have seen Volcarona use succesfully all those types and there is even more potential: if for some reason Tyranitar becomes common again, Tera Fight will be waiting it. If Psychic Spam sees a resurgence, Tera Psychic can be used. Rain can use Hurricane Tera Flying Volcarona as well. Only Kingambit and Iron Valiant have such Tera variety and both are pretty problematic Mons on their own.
Volcarona has some counterplay in every playstyle, but its very limited and entirely dependant of Volcarona's Tera type, which is pretty hard to anticipate. Opposing Fire types get smashed by Tera Ground or Water, Dragonite can get walled by Tera Ghost, Primarina destroyed by Tera Grass Giga Drain. Nothing except Blissey is 100% safe and Blissey is hard to fit in Balanced teams.
I don,t see Volcarona's defensive utility integral either. Rillaboom and his grassy goons won,t suddenly destroy the Meta without Volcarona, between S and B+ ranks there are 6 quadruple Grass resists and many x2 ones.
Kyurem will still have to deal with Glowking, Blissey, Rocks and offensive pressure in general. Volcarona isn,t even that reliable of a check to it, since it collapses to Draco Meteor and is beaten by physical sets too.
Valiant and Enamorus might become better without Volc but in my opinion they are already problematic with it in the Tier, so if opinion shifts towards them, they can be banned too.
All in all, I don,t see this Pokemon good for the Tier and the counterplay is not enough, therefore will be voting BAN.
That being said, when at the beginning of the generation we have chosen the path to preserve the Tera mechanic, we knew that it would mean banning lots of Mons that abuse it way too well. Volcarona should be one of those Mons. Grass, Fire, Water, Bug, Ground, Poison, Ghost, Dragon, Steel, Fairy... we have seen Volcarona use succesfully all those types and there is even more potential: if for some reason Tyranitar becomes common again, Tera Fight will be waiting it. If Psychic Spam sees a resurgence, Tera Psychic can be used. Rain can use Hurricane Tera Flying Volcarona as well. Only Kingambit and Iron Valiant have such Tera variety and both are pretty problematic Mons on their own.
Volcarona has some counterplay in every playstyle, but its very limited and entirely dependant of Volcarona's Tera type, which is pretty hard to anticipate. Opposing Fire types get smashed by Tera Ground or Water, Dragonite can get walled by Tera Ghost, Primarina destroyed by Tera Grass Giga Drain. Nothing except Blissey is 100% safe and Blissey is hard to fit in Balanced teams.
I don,t see Volcarona's defensive utility integral either. Rillaboom and his grassy goons won,t suddenly destroy the Meta without Volcarona, between S and B+ ranks there are 6 quadruple Grass resists and many x2 ones.
Kyurem will still have to deal with Glowking, Blissey, Rocks and offensive pressure in general. Volcarona isn,t even that reliable of a check to it, since it collapses to Draco Meteor and is beaten by physical sets too.
Valiant and Enamorus might become better without Volc but in my opinion they are already problematic with it in the Tier, so if opinion shifts towards them, they can be banned too.
All in all, I don,t see this Pokemon good for the Tier and the counterplay is not enough, therefore will be voting BAN.
I don't think this is incorrect, just unrealistic tbh. We can shout and bemoan how people are not voting correctly, but unless you bring back the old suspect system where you had to explain your vote, people will vote for whatever they want.
If someone wants to vote ban because they want stall to get worse (random argument im not claiming this would happen), or because they want change, or just because "this meta sucks", they'll do it. No amounts of preaching of how they're using the vote incorrectly is gonna stop them. You can haha react the guy whos voting no ban cuz he thinks solgaleo has a chance at ou for some reason, hes still gonna vote no ban and his vote will still influence the outcome
and these upcoming suspects are going to be messy and controversial, which means a lot more insane and wild arguments on both sides as people are trying to reach a metagame they enjoy/"save" gen 9 (or preserve it if you like it as it is).
idk just try to bring in good discussion and make your points clear. listing incorrect ways of voting is a fools errand. ctann has done more to the no ban argument than anyone in this thread LOL
Glitchwood High
formerly Err0r Mobutt
While I'm mostly staying out of this, I wanted to comment on this post because this seems like a strange, if not blatantly wrong, paradrigm (hopefully doesn't seem like I'm ganging up for you). Why would I ever vote on a Pokemon independent on it's effect on the metagame? That's why we're voting for it in the first place. Pokemon do not exist in a vacuum whatsoever. According to tiering policy, one of the acceptable reasons for banning a Pokemon is if the Pokemon is unhealthy--i.e., it is acceptable to ban it if you think a ban would make the metagame healthier. Several of the pro-ban posts boil down to wanting Volcarona gone because banning it would make for a better metagame.
Besides that, there isn't any way to quantify a mon being 'too good' other than by it being an unhealthy presence in some way, shape or form. They're not independent variables: if a mon is healthy, then by definition it isn't 'too good', and if it is too good, then the problem is that it's unhealthy.
that wasn't a system, it was something that happened for one suspect in ubers that got people incredibly angry
for the record, i actually support it in theory, but in practice, there were two minor problems and two major problems with it:
- minor: the fact that your explanation had to be a paragraph. just a sentence or a couple sentences should be enough to summarize your point. this isn't middle school
- minor: the fact that it's "gatekeeping" or "elitist" or "anti-democratic" or whatever snarl term you want to use. none of that actually means it wouldn't get equal or better results than the normal suspect process, which is already designed to filter out people who don't understand the tier. this would just be another layer to the filter. the reason this is even a problem at all is because it makes it unpopular
- major: the people judging your reasoning can effectively singlehandedly decide the vote, which means the entire point of having a suspect process is moot because they're all just fancy quickban votes
- major, and this is the one that will prevent it from working no matter how you try to mitigate the other three: you can just lie about your reasoning and no one can stop you
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I am looking to get reqs to vote Ban.
Volc has several sets and Teras to use that you can’t account for without slotting in multiple checks. Even checks you’d think would normally work like non-AV Prima get 2HKOd by +1 Tera Ground Blast from offensive Volc while Surf doesn’t OHKO. Pult needs to have T-Wave or CB to check Volc pre-Tera. Plus offensive Volc doesn’t need to Tera to break Dragapult.
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 144-169 (45.4 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
Dnite loses to Wisp and Tera Fairy. Also let’s not forget that Dnite is often tasked with checking other offensive threats like Wogre.
Compared to other Tera abusers like Gambit or Valiant, Volc is much harder to figure out because there’s no indication as to what Tera it uses, and unlike Gambit, you can’t use Zama or Encore to try and scout it because you’ll just give it 2 Quiver Dance boosts. Volc can either be QD Morning Sun, Wisp, Offensive QD, or Sub-QD. Imo Sub-QD has been the most broken set. Throwing counterplay like Glowking or Garg in the garbage.
Imo, banning Volc would actually allow Pokemon that benefit the meta more to thrive. For example.
-Rilla was already good, but banning Volc would make Grassy Glide easier to click and Rilla in general, easier to slot. Rilla also keeps Pokemon like Primarina, Garg, Wogre, and Raging Bolt (with High Horsepower) in check. The same applies to Grasspon, who has a similar role, but with Encore.
-Scizor would benefit heavily off the Volc ban. Scizor provides the role compression of Knock, priority Bullet Punch, and U-Turn. Also unlike Volc, it doesn’t die to Specs Kyu Draco or Rock Slide. So I’d be a more reliable Kyurem check while Bullet Punch can hit targets like Valiant, Moon, Enamorus, Rilla, etc.
To provide an example of Volc being broken, here’s a replay showing how a single misread with Volc can decide the game. (Warning, I made some shitty plays)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102599427?p2
Here, my opponent haa all the Volc checks in the world. Tera Dragon Brave Bird Skarm, Dozo, Dirge, Gliscor, Garg, and a janky Light Screen Psychic Noise Glowking. Volc comes in once, reveals Sub and turns Glowking into a liability. Even once the Garg breaks the Sub and lands a Salt Cure, Volc fucking lives it and Giga Drains to continue healing up. If I had played better, Rilla + Volc would’ve been able to beat this whole Balance team more easily. Could my opponent have played better? Maybe, but the point is that there’s no way of telling what Volc you’re up against and guessing wrong is a gg.
For BO, you often have to stack checks like Dnite, Prima, and Tera Fire Gambit together. Balance has more room to slap in multiple checks, but again, your response to it will determine the actual match, cause like the Glowking example, you would not know what set or Tera it has until it nukes your “check”
Stall has no problem cause it has the only two hard checks in Blissey and Clodsire, but Stall also has a problem with one of Volc’s most common partner, Ogerpon-W.
The other problem with Volc is how it makes checking other threats like Primarina and Raging Bolt harder in practice. Glowking can hold off Volc, but would get overwhelmed by the Rbolt or Prima in the back.
Volc promotes unhealthy matchup fishing. If Stall is the only way to consistently check it, that’s not a sign of a healthy metagame.
Volc has several sets and Teras to use that you can’t account for without slotting in multiple checks. Even checks you’d think would normally work like non-AV Prima get 2HKOd by +1 Tera Ground Blast from offensive Volc while Surf doesn’t OHKO. Pult needs to have T-Wave or CB to check Volc pre-Tera. Plus offensive Volc doesn’t need to Tera to break Dragapult.
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 144-169 (45.4 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
Dnite loses to Wisp and Tera Fairy. Also let’s not forget that Dnite is often tasked with checking other offensive threats like Wogre.
Compared to other Tera abusers like Gambit or Valiant, Volc is much harder to figure out because there’s no indication as to what Tera it uses, and unlike Gambit, you can’t use Zama or Encore to try and scout it because you’ll just give it 2 Quiver Dance boosts. Volc can either be QD Morning Sun, Wisp, Offensive QD, or Sub-QD. Imo Sub-QD has been the most broken set. Throwing counterplay like Glowking or Garg in the garbage.
Imo, banning Volc would actually allow Pokemon that benefit the meta more to thrive. For example.
-Rilla was already good, but banning Volc would make Grassy Glide easier to click and Rilla in general, easier to slot. Rilla also keeps Pokemon like Primarina, Garg, Wogre, and Raging Bolt (with High Horsepower) in check. The same applies to Grasspon, who has a similar role, but with Encore.
-Scizor would benefit heavily off the Volc ban. Scizor provides the role compression of Knock, priority Bullet Punch, and U-Turn. Also unlike Volc, it doesn’t die to Specs Kyu Draco or Rock Slide. So I’d be a more reliable Kyurem check while Bullet Punch can hit targets like Valiant, Moon, Enamorus, Rilla, etc.
To provide an example of Volc being broken, here’s a replay showing how a single misread with Volc can decide the game. (Warning, I made some shitty plays)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102599427?p2
Here, my opponent haa all the Volc checks in the world. Tera Dragon Brave Bird Skarm, Dozo, Dirge, Gliscor, Garg, and a janky Light Screen Psychic Noise Glowking. Volc comes in once, reveals Sub and turns Glowking into a liability. Even once the Garg breaks the Sub and lands a Salt Cure, Volc fucking lives it and Giga Drains to continue healing up. If I had played better, Rilla + Volc would’ve been able to beat this whole Balance team more easily. Could my opponent have played better? Maybe, but the point is that there’s no way of telling what Volc you’re up against and guessing wrong is a gg.
For BO, you often have to stack checks like Dnite, Prima, and Tera Fire Gambit together. Balance has more room to slap in multiple checks, but again, your response to it will determine the actual match, cause like the Glowking example, you would not know what set or Tera it has until it nukes your “check”
Stall has no problem cause it has the only two hard checks in Blissey and Clodsire, but Stall also has a problem with one of Volc’s most common partner, Ogerpon-W.
The other problem with Volc is how it makes checking other threats like Primarina and Raging Bolt harder in practice. Glowking can hold off Volc, but would get overwhelmed by the Rbolt or Prima in the back.
Volc promotes unhealthy matchup fishing. If Stall is the only way to consistently check it, that’s not a sign of a healthy metagame.
Volc having so many tera options is not breaking it, everything has so many tera options. It's obvious that tera psychic for example is mediocre, etc.
The main pro-ban argument points:
Let's see how they're broken, and can't be recovered from, and each team that couldn't recover from it, didn't have any other options.
This is a really simple argument, and you need to be consistent with other suspects. It's already wild to me the contradictions that are made because people want a specific outcome, so suddenly there's direct contradictions to previous opinions such as "the value it provides shouldn’t be a consideration", meanwhile, there are quotes from previous suspects with the same leadership team saying words to the effect of "consider the value it provides"...
The onus is on the pro-ban volc team to show that this is something actually broken, i.e. comparable to magearna, eleki, baxcalibur, ursa-bloodmoon, pre-DLC gliscor and not comparable to Zamazenta, gouging fire, and walking wake. Kyurem and Kingambit are the weird ones.
I’m actually trying to get sample games in from the ladder, not to support my argument, but to show you, rather than just tell you, what volc is actually like in games.
Volcarona is unique in that it seems to elicit a very strong emotional response, which can cause people to see it as worse than what it is. Perhaps I’m wrong.. but let’s look at actual games and assess them. It’s the fairest way.
something consistent about every broken we have seen before, they all feature prominently in matchups and have MVP status in a lot. They’re consistently excellent and a cut above the rest.
I'll go through the posts that have replays soon and reply, thanks for that guys.
The main pro-ban argument points:
- Thanks to Tera + terablast, volcarona can open up or sweep a team, uncontrollably
- balance, hybrid/offense and HO do not have enough counterplay options to this
- ground,
- dragon,
- fairy and;
- maybe grass and water too
Let's see how they're broken, and can't be recovered from, and each team that couldn't recover from it, didn't have any other options.
This is a really simple argument, and you need to be consistent with other suspects. It's already wild to me the contradictions that are made because people want a specific outcome, so suddenly there's direct contradictions to previous opinions such as "the value it provides shouldn’t be a consideration", meanwhile, there are quotes from previous suspects with the same leadership team saying words to the effect of "consider the value it provides"...
The onus is on the pro-ban volc team to show that this is something actually broken, i.e. comparable to magearna, eleki, baxcalibur, ursa-bloodmoon, pre-DLC gliscor and not comparable to Zamazenta, gouging fire, and walking wake. Kyurem and Kingambit are the weird ones.
I’m actually trying to get sample games in from the ladder, not to support my argument, but to show you, rather than just tell you, what volc is actually like in games.
Volcarona is unique in that it seems to elicit a very strong emotional response, which can cause people to see it as worse than what it is. Perhaps I’m wrong.. but let’s look at actual games and assess them. It’s the fairest way.
something consistent about every broken we have seen before, they all feature prominently in matchups and have MVP status in a lot. They’re consistently excellent and a cut above the rest.
I'll go through the posts that have replays soon and reply, thanks for that guys.
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Question for those who are knowledgeable: is this supposed to be considered a valid reason to ban or not ban in a suspect? Isn't a suspect supposed to see if a Pokemon is broken rather than merely "good for the meta" in some sense?
'Everything having many tera options' is not a good counterargument because of how well Volc abuses tera and in particular, tera blast. Tera blast is unviable on most mons because its such a high opportunity cost, so it should be telling that people are highlighting volc having many tera options because of how it simultaneously shapes its offensive coverage as well. It is the perfect tera abuser for its ability to change its defesnive type after a QD, both boosting its mu into offense and fat, but also for its ability to snowball when clicking fiery dance. Nothing snowballs like it, and if teraing it means you give it the coverage to either shatter a hole in the opponents team or win outright, you'll take that chance.
Similarly, you keep asserting that you be shown replays to back up the pro-ban side, and I'm not arguing that replays are a bad tool in a suspect. Any given replay (or even sample set of replays) is always going to be unreliable; its unfortunately not the be all end all proof. For every replay you've posted with volc not doing anything, others have posted replays with it sweeping games. This is not only because Volc is literally the match-up moth, so it'll have games where its ass, but also because any one replay isn't going to be proof you think it is. Demanding replays is silly. Similarly as your assertion that people jump through your hoops to prove to you that volc is broken through asking people to focus on the broken teras and the statement that 'the onus is on the ban crowd'. There is no argument within this post, and you're assertion that its on the onus of the ban crowd is almost like stating 'I don't have to make one' (yes, I know you've posted multiple times, I'm talking about this post). the point isn't that each tera individually is broken, it's that volc can use its wide set diversity to flip its mus on the fly, and you importantly have no idea what it's gonna do until it already has a qd and maybe another fiery dance boost up and your check might be in. If I'm using what HighVoltage claimed is a check/counter as SpD Garg and the volc I'm in on tera grounds, I'm cooked bc salt cure does nothign and it can keep boosting unless I have rillaboom in the back, which might not fit on this team. Or i have pult as a check in and it clicks tera dragon. I don't know its tera until after my counterplay is in and its boosted, and if it flips the matchup, I might be fucked. The natural response is to prep for these (i.e, your check loses to tera ground, so bring rilla) and you do your best to prep counterplay because you don't want to lose, but you also have a LOT of threats to prepare for in this tier, and often an extra counter to one of volc's many sets is going to help there, but potentially take away from the rest of the team. Rilla may help against tera ground, but oftentimes you can't just slot rillaboom onto a team because it's not the right fit. When people list all these tera types, that's what they mean, not that any of these sets are individually broken (although in conjunction they certainly are, and I would argue volc's base kit is definitely close to uncompetitive even without tera).
Edit: realized 658Greninja provided another good example of volc turning a check (gking) into a reliability thanks to a fringe set. He emphasizes as well that playing the guessing game wrong often can mean you lose because of the nature of QD, fiery dance, and flame body disincentivizing the physical attacks that would bypass its QD boosts.
Yes your points are taken and I’m going through replies soon. The “what if it Tera’s and then overcomes x, y, z check” isn’t new. Trying to look at the examples presented and making a counter-case if it’s relevant or conceding that Volcarona is broken if it’s relevant. I am not arguing that I don’t need to provide anything. Just trying to argue that we need to look at things as they are, and not as they seem.
Kyurem nuking teams or fishing for a freeze is clear as mud. Gambit overcoming checks and turning them into 50/50s, even when it’s prepared for, is clear as mud. Previously we had magearna overpowering teams, also clear as mud.
Volcarona running away with a game is made out to be some overwhelming thing, my position is that it isn’t. Tera, and Tera blast are high commit plays it can’t come back from. Using tera blast in a set at all is high commit due to it not providing coverage without Tera. This is very different to the other examples, who are providing massive value with or without Tera. They also, like every pokemon determined broken before, feature prominently in almost every match they’re in.
if the argument is about snowballing MUF, then the closest comparison is espathra. Which could only be reliably dealt with using unaware + Tera dark or steel. That’s something I’m happy to make comparisons to more later.
And I’m replying to each person who adds something new to the conversation. The “it gets past x, y, z” checks is already addressed. So now the next steps is to address the runaway games with its most problematic sets. Give me some time to go through the replays later today.
this is fair isn’t it..
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thanks for the response. I want to point out that I also think kyurem is bannable, and I think kingambit is potentially unhealthy, so it's not as if I disagree with those examples or see either or those as 'fair'. I don't even think Volc is the most broken thing in the tier right now (cough cough Wellspring). However, those other mons being broken/potentially broken doesn't stop Volc from also being broken (note: there brokenness or lack thereof isn't on discussion here though).
Also, the 'what if it tera's and overcomes it's check' def isn't new or my own argument by any means, but it is why that list of tera types given is so dangerous with its use of tera blast. Tera-ing a mon normally won't end a game, but volc has the kit to make that 'what if it tera's' argument much more threatening. After 2 turns, Volc can potentially have burned a mon with flame body (made it useless so it can't attack its weaker physical bulk as effectively), gotten a qd boost, and gotten ANOTHER SpA boost on top of that thanks to fiery dance. It snowballs really fast, and if it was gen 8 and there was no hidden power/tera, you could throw heatran or dirge at it and totally cook it. But tera essentially blows past one of volc's few weaknesses, being its coverage not always being amazing, and in a mon that can net that many boosts that fast, that's a problem. That's why I think the argumetn, while not being new, holds a lot of weight.
An argument I have seen a lot is "You need multiple answers to it"
In my opinion, in this case there is nothing wrong with it. As I have said, Volcarona has several answers, and they are easy to use together.
For example, let’s say I want to build a balance team with Skeledirge and Ting-Lu because I want to have a good matchup against Volcarona. Not only willI have an unbreakable defense against Volcarona, but I also get many things, like status, hazards, an Unaware user and blanket checks to setup sweepers and special attackers, respectively. Skeledirge and Ting-Lu also cover each other’s weaknesses too, so they are easy to use together. I can even easily add Garganacl on top of this, since it pairs well with Skeledirge and Ting-Lu and is a great secondary Volcarona check, and it also checks many things on top of that. Therefore, even if Volcarona gets banned, the team will not entirely die out.
In my opinion, in this case there is nothing wrong with it. As I have said, Volcarona has several answers, and they are easy to use together.
For example, let’s say I want to build a balance team with Skeledirge and Ting-Lu because I want to have a good matchup against Volcarona. Not only willI have an unbreakable defense against Volcarona, but I also get many things, like status, hazards, an Unaware user and blanket checks to setup sweepers and special attackers, respectively. Skeledirge and Ting-Lu also cover each other’s weaknesses too, so they are easy to use together. I can even easily add Garganacl on top of this, since it pairs well with Skeledirge and Ting-Lu and is a great secondary Volcarona check, and it also checks many things on top of that. Therefore, even if Volcarona gets banned, the team will not entirely die out.
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