Metagame np: SV Ubers Stage 3 - Respect

[Aberforth]

​

The Ubers council has decided to suspect test Last Respects!

Reasoning:

Last Respects has been creeping up as a problem since the conclusion of SCL, when it was explored and found to be an incredibly potent win condition on hyper offense teams. The move is extremely powerful, and is capable of tearing through teams in lategame scenarios with minimal effort, with the only frequent form of counterplay being either an Arceus-Normal (which locks users out of all other Arceus forms in a tier where Arceus is often part of staple defensive cores), or by preserving an emergency Tera-Normal on a fast powerful pokemon for a lategame scenario. Sticky Web allows the primary user of Last Respects to outspeed the entire metagame after an agility, and means playing around Last Respects is incredibly difficult with the limited forms of hazard removal in the tier. While Last Respects is only a move that works in late game scenarios most of the time, its potency in those situations is incredible and more than makes up for the lack of utility available in the early game, and the threat of a 250 or 300 base power Last Respects means it forces highly constrained lines of play throughout the game too.

Complaints over Last Respects have only grown throughout World Cup, as well as the recent Miraidon Suspect, with numerous posters expressing their opinion that Last Respects was a clearly broken element that needed to be removed. The most recent survey demostrates this point of view being a common one very clearly, and our most recent PR thread also has further reasonings on what makes Last Respects worthy of a suspect test both in the OP and the replies from many players. With the meta remaining the same following Miraidon staying in the tier, it felt appropriate to immediately jump into the next suspect of another topic at the same level of controversy to assess if it is truly too much for the Ubers tier.

In regards to Basculegion-M vs Last Respects, after speaking with the tiering council and the head tiering admin, we've concluded that this suspect will be for Last Respects, not for Basculegion-M, as that is the Uber element in question. A move of this power, given to any reasonably viable Uber Pokemon, would be enough to utterly break that Pokemon too, as can be seen with Basculegion-M being NU without it. As such, we have decided to go ahead with suspecting specifically Last Respects.



Suspect Test Information

• The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice. For reference, there's a minimum games required table posted below.
• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be UBLR. For example, I might sign up with the ladder account UBLR Aberforth.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitation when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular Ubers ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• We will be posting the voting identification thread shortly after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a moderator. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will go on for a little over one week, lasting until Sunday March 31st, 10:30 PM GMT -4, and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

Minimum Games Required Table

GXE	Minimum Games Required
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, more so than the average Ubers forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

Suspect Test Rules

• Do not discuss the banning of other topics such as Miraidon or Basculegion-M instead of Last Respects. Posts involving those will be deleted.
• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• No discussion on the suspect process;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the Ubers Council and the Ubers Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the Ubers Council, an Ubers Tier Leader (myself or Fc), or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

The test will run until Sunday March 31st, 10:30 PM GMT -4. In order to ban Last Respects, a 66.6% supermajority will be required. If you meet the requirements then post a screenshot in the voting requirements thread - but please take note of the criteria outlined there when you do in order to be eligible!

Current Ubers Council

Aberforth
Edgar
entrocefalo
Fc
Fogbound Lake
Kate
Manaphy
Minority

Tagging dhelmise and Marty to announce this on the Ubers ladder, thank you!

 

[Nyx]

I don't think there's much to be said. It's already been a given for the entirety of UWC, and the Miraidon suspect, please just get this thing out.

 

[gabraltar]

There's a small part of me that want's LR to stay in order for everyone to know just how ridiculously low an 80% gxe requirement is but ultimately, the health of the metagame is more important so LR should be banned.

There isn't a whole lot to be said that hasn't been said already but LR encourages and rewards bad play and forces either ekiller, or some terrible sets like tera dark ndm or darkceus so yeah, boot it out.

 

[Yellow Armchair]

If I was hesistant with the last vote, I think there is very little reason not to vote *ban* in this one.
I do not think it is actually unreasonably broken, but the metagame is a much better place without LR, goodbye sir.

 

[Fc]

I didn't make a post about Miraidon because I didn't feel strongly enough either way to want to sway the vote, but I did end up voting do not ban and think it was fine that it ended up staying. When it comes to Last Respects I think it's a lot more difficult to deal with in a reasonable manner in this tier, and it places a strain on both teambuilding and playing that's incredibly easy to see. There's essentially no other reason to run tera normal and it's being used on a lot of Pokemon that would prefer other teras that help them deal with more of the metagame like Eternatus and Scarf Koraidon, and in any other matchup this is an active hinderance. Both having to make teams like this and also play the offense matchup solely to preserve your tera is very difficult since you're effectively playing down a tera mon or will lose to Last Respects, since Basculegion usually doesn't need to tera unless it's to hit a normal type with Tera Blast Fighting so other Pokemon on offense can utilize it instead to make a path for Basculegion to win.

While Basculegion isn't the most used Pokemon it's been consistently rising for months, especially on ladder, where Basculegion actually hit top 10 among the highest ladder bracket recorded for stats in February, 1 spot above its main partner Ribombee. I don't really see a reason to keep this move in the tier when it warps building and play to this extent while not adding anything itself aside from making matchup fishing easier. The amount of Tera Normal Koraidons and Miraidons I built during Ubers World Cup should be reflective of that, the fact that the 2 strongest dragons sometimes just have to run a defensive tera for a single Pokemon on a single playstyle to not instantly lose games is restricting in building and also in game. This is especially true given how flimsy of a countermeasure Tera Normal is in the first place for the reasons I mentioned like tera being too valuable of a resource to be playing down in this meta and Basculegion having access to it as well. Ekiller can check it until it gets Tera Blast Fighting'd (an OHKO from Life Orb sets), so the better check options are limited to one Arceus form which lacks other defensive utility and tera, the most valuable resource in the tier, being used on a terrible type on Pokemon that don't want to use it for anything else and become worse with it. I will be voting ban on Last Respects.

 

[Trade]

I’ve said my piece on this mon (I’m going to use it interchangeably with Last Respects, because Dog isn’t doing anything). It’s surprising to me we didn’t deal with this first as this one will probably be one-sided. Despite becoming the target of public outcry much later than Miraidon, Basculegion has an incredibly negative impact on the meta for a number of reasons. I’ve made this post in the past, but it still outlines the very many issues of Basculegion, and my thoughts haven’t changed since then.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...cussion-v4-dlc-2-edition.3732719/post-9979659

Please look at this if you are undecided.

 

[Heatranator]

I am bad at Ubers (mainly because I don't play the tier) and last respects single handledly got me from 1100 elo to 1400 elo. How is that okay?
I don't think anybody wants this to stay, but I said the same thing about the kyurem and gouging suspect and look how that turned out (I hope I didn't jinx it).

 

[andrei6264]

Now this is a ban I completely agree with. Extremely cheap way to win and very much annoying. Kind of reminds me of Dracovish in OU, but this time it's with a normal type instead of a water absorb.

 

[ox04]

Last Respects isn't banworthy, the only way it's even meta relevant is on Basculegion. Sure Last Respects is the "Uber element" and not Basculegion itself, but Basculegion is what makes Last Respects supposedly broken. Every other mon that has it is fine, can someone please just clear that one out to me? Other than that the explanation provided here basically only says "what if some other meta relevant mon had it" and that tiering admins say test Last Respects, so that is what should happen. That reasoning doesn't make sense to me. (Why potentially restrict multiple mons with banning Last Respects, rather than just one that's supposed to be the actual problem in Basculegion?)

 

[Heatranator]

Last Respects isn't banworthy, the only way it's even meta relevant is on Basculegion. Sure Last Respects is the "Uber element" and not Basculegion itself, but Basculegion is what makes Last Respects broken. Every other mon that has it is fine, can someone please just clear that one out to me? Other than that the explanation provided here basically only says "what if some other meta relevant mon had it" and that tiering admins say test Last Respects, so that is what should happen. That reasoning doesn't make sense to me. (Why potentially restrict multiple mons with banning Last Respects, rather than just one that's the actual problem in Basculegion?)

The only other mon that has it is houndstone, which is less powerful and slower, but in return has fluffy which means non-fire moves on the physical side that make contact (which is most), bounce off it.
252+ Atk Houndstone Last Respects vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Miraidon: 450-529 (131.9 - 155.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Houndstone Last Respects vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Miraidon: 409-483 (119.9 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Fluffy Houndstone: 135-159 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Fluffy Houndstone: 122-144 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Basculegion: 346-408 (90.8 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
It's still way too powerful, it's better to get rid of last respects than have another repeat if we banned basculegion.

 

[gabraltar]

Last Respects isn't banworthy, the only way it's even meta relevant is on Basculegion. Sure Last Respects is the "Uber element" and not Basculegion itself, but Basculegion is what makes Last Respects supposedly broken. Every other mon that has it is fine, can someone please just clear that one out to me? Other than that the explanation provided here basically only says "what if some other meta relevant mon had it" and that tiering admins say test Last Respects, so that is what should happen. That reasoning doesn't make sense to me. (Why potentially restrict multiple mons with banning Last Respects, rather than just one that's supposed to be the actual problem in Basculegion?)

There's really no reason to preserve it just for Houndstone. ADV Ubers didn't preserve Baton Pass just because something like Volbeat wouldn't be broken with it.

Also, Basculegion-f and White Stripped Basculin exist, both of which would absolutely be broken with Last Respects. Last Respects is a fundamentally uncompetitive move that rewards bad playing so it should be banned

 

[gabraltar]

Last Respects isn't banworthy, the only way it's even meta relevant is on Basculegion. Sure Last Respects is the "Uber element" and not Basculegion itself, but Basculegion is what makes Last Respects supposedly broken. Every other mon that has it is fine, can someone please just clear that one out to me? Other than that the explanation provided here basically only says "what if some other meta relevant mon had it" and that tiering admins say test Last Respects, so that is what should happen. That reasoning doesn't make sense to me. (Why potentially restrict multiple mons with banning Last Respects, rather than just one that's supposed to be the actual problem in Basculegion?)

it also makes no sense to not want to ban a fundamentally broken move/poke just because there's a "better way" of doing it. The goal of a suspect is to make the meta better so if a ban does that (which this one objectively does), we do it, end of story

 

[ox04]

It's still way too powerful, it's better to get rid of last respects than have another repeat if we banned basculegion.

It's not watch these calcs:
252 SpA Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Houndstone: 297-351 (85.3 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Houndstone in Sun: 270-318 (77.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Def Houndstone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 96-114 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Houndstone Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 186-219 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- 95.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Houndstone: 118-139 (33.9 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Unlike Houndstone, Bascu has adaptability Wave Crash which is what makes it so dangerous (on top of higher attack and much higher speed). That means ain't no way Hounstone is sweeping entire teams like Basculegion can.

There's really no reason to preserve it just for Houndstone. ADV Ubers didn't preserve Baton Pass just because something like Volbeat wouldn't be broken with it.

I don't know too much about ADV, but what I do know is that there's a ton of pokemon that get Baton Pass not just two evolution lines.

Also, Basculegion-f and White Stripped Basculin exist, both of which would absolutely be broken with Last Respects. Last Respects is a fundamentally uncompetitive move that rewards bad playing so it should be banned

Basculegion-f wouldn't be nearly as good (it can't kill defensive Arceus even at maximum Base Power) and regular Basculin who has to Tera Ghost to get STAB would not be good in Ubers (I mean are you kidding me frickin Basculin being broken in Ubers???):

252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 376-444 (73.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 194-230 (43.6 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Tera Fighting Basculegion-F Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 260-308 (58.5 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects (200 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 240-284 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO --> Arceus goes for Wisp --> 252+ Atk Adaptability burned Basculegion-F Last Respects vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 120-142 (27.2 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after max roll on the first attack
252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 360-424 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

it also makes no sense to not want to ban a fundamentally broken move/poke just because there's a "better way" of doing it. The goal of a suspect is to make the meta better so if a ban does that (which this one objectively does), we do it, end of story

This statement makes no sense. First of all, why purposefully do something the worse way if you know a better way. Secondly, how is it fundamentally broken if only one mon is broken with it? I mean sure it would be broken if Koraidon or something has it, but it doesn't. Only Basculegion is even meta relevant of the mons that have it, so how does that make Last Respects broken? Like are we banning Scale Shot and not Koraidon because only Koraidon is broken with Scale Shot??? (hypothetically speaking that last one)

 

[Heatranator]

It's not watch these calcs:
252 SpA Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Houndstone: 297-351 (85.3 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Houndstone in Sun: 270-318 (77.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Def Houndstone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 96-114 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Houndstone Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 186-219 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- 95.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Houndstone: 118-139 (33.9 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Unlike Houndstone, Bascu has adaptability Wave Crash which is what makes it so dangerous (on top of higher attack and much higher speed). That means ain't no way Hounstone is sweeping entire teams like Basculegion can.


I don't know too much about ADV, but what I do know is that there's a ton of pokemon that get Baton Pass not just two evolution lines.


Basculegion-f wouldn't be nearly as good (it can't kill defensive Arceus even at maximum Base Power) and regular Basculin who has to Tera Ghost to get STAB would not be good in Ubers (I mean are you kidding me frickin Basculin being broken in Ubers???):

252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 376-444 (73.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 194-230 (43.6 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Tera Fighting Basculegion-F Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 260-308 (58.5 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects (200 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 240-284 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO --> Arceus goes for Wisp --> 252+ Atk Adaptability burned Basculegion-F Last Respects vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 120-142 (27.2 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after max roll on the first attack
252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 360-424 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


This statement makes no sense. First of all, why purposefully do something the worse way if you know a better way. Secondly, how is it fundamentally broken if only one mon is broken with it? I mean sure it would be broken if Koraidon or something has it, but it doesn't. Only Basculegion is even meta relevant of the mons that have it, so how does that make Last Respects broken? Like are we banning Scale Shot and not Koraidon because only Koraidon is broken with Scale Shot??? (hypothetically speaking that last one)

You do realise that it living a miriadon draco meteor is insane?
252 SpA Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Basculegion: 369-435 (96.8 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
6% chance to OHKO isn't really in the miriadon's favour.
The other calcs show that, yes, houndstone has insane bulk. It can take a koraidon flare blitz just fine, and ting-lu can't ko it in time because it will be 3hit ko'd in return.
This only moves the needle towards the ban side, you have actually shown why Houndstone would be broken if basc left. 3hit ko'ing ting-lu is insane, you do realise that?
Also, you do realise that one tera would destroy all these mons. And again, what's stopping houndstone from destroying the tier. And if you say, "Just ban houndstone then", I am going to scream because in that case, we should ban last respects because it has shown itself broken on multiple users.

Also, showing a calc where basc-f is doing 50% to a resist is funny, because that is extremely powerful. You are showing an extremely bulky mon taking that much damage from a resist. Only arceus normal, water, dragon, grass and kingambit would be able to take it on. Only two of those is are actually good arceus forms (Grass being C rank ain't good, it's mediocre), the other is a B- mon. If you really wanted to, you could go adamant to ko them.
252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Koraidon: 458-540 (134.3 - 158.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Miraidon: 512-604 (150.1 - 177.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 489-576 (122.8 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion-F Last Respects vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 369-434 (83.6 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion-F Last Respects vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ground: 497-585 (112.6 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion-F Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 448-529 (107.6 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 458-540 (140.9 - 166.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This covers mons A+ or above, I don't think I need to go over mons below them because they either are niche, or are destroyed.
Out of this list, only fully defensive arceus-fairy can take it. Combining the mons from before, we have four counters. They are:
Arceus-Normal (Best one, but I wouldn't say that really moves the needle much because it also countered male)
Arceus-Water (Can't take two last respects, and does little damage to it. Even thunder doesn't ko basculegion-f)
Arcues-Fairy (Judgement does 60% max, so it ain't taking it down)
Kingambit (not only a B- mon, but takes 80% max from tera ghost last respects, otherwise it can't ko it)

So in reality, only gambit can realistically take it on due to sucker punch priority, and being forced to use a B- mon on every team is not healthy.
Idk what you are trying to say, basc-f is a tiny bit less powerful, but it still is so overwhelmingly powerful, that it would be bs to keep it in the tier.

 

[ox04]

You do realise that it living a miriadon draco meteor is insane?

It's not insane if you get wisped and can't kill that Arceus in the first place. It's also not insane if all you get is one kill per game at best. That calc was without hazards btw. Miraidon can also use a Life Orb, Choice Specs, Dragon Fang, or simply Tera Dragon (the standard pivot and Choice Scarf set have Tera Dragon).

Also, the ability to output a lot of damage doesn't make a Pokemon good (I see you don't realize that) so I suggest you give this a watch:

 

[Heatranator]

It's not insane if you get wisped and can't kill that Arceus in the first place. It's also not insane if all you get is one kill per game at best. That calc was without hazards btw. Miraidon can also use a Life Orb, Choice Specs, Dragon Fang, or simply Tera Dragon (the standard pivot and Choice Scarf set have Tera Dragon).

Also, the ability to output a lot of damage doesn't make a Pokemon good (I see you don't realize that) so I suggest you give this a watch:

Yes, I do realise that, but what move is basc-f/houndstone going to be clicking 99% of the time? Last respects. They can easily outspeed and ko any mon that even has a chance to ko it in return. You would need to be a fast HDB mon, which is limited to Miriadon, which has its own problems.
Also, I saw that you linked the FSG rampardos thereom video. I have watched that video, and let me tell you, how in the hell is rampardos doing that much damage? You could easily say the same thing about basc-m, so idk why you think that is a good arguement when basc-m can do the same things, only slightly better. You even showed how houndstone can take even more hits, which could be even more busted as now you can't even ko the insta-kill mon.

 

[ox04]

Yes, I do realise that, but what move is basc-f/houndstone going to be clicking 99% of the time? Last respects. They can easily outspeed and ko any mon that even has a chance to ko it in return. You would need to be a fast HDB mon, which is limited to Miriadon, which has its own problems.
Also, I saw that you linked the FSG rampardos thereom video. I have watched that video, and let me tell you, how in the hell is rampardos doing that much damage? You could easily say the same thing about basc-m, so idk why you think that is a good arguement when basc-m can do the same things, only slightly better. You even showed how houndstone can take even more hits, which could be even more busted as now you can't even ko the insta-kill mon.

I'd haha react you right now but I'm not built like that.

 

[Stallion]

I'd say it's obvious that this should get banned, but after the terrible outcome of the Miraidon suspect test I'm not gonna take a Basc / respects ban as a given.

 

[Bruxish supremacy]

It's not watch these calcs:
252 SpA Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Houndstone: 297-351 (85.3 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Houndstone in Sun: 270-318 (77.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Def Houndstone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 96-114 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Houndstone Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 186-219 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- 95.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Houndstone: 118-139 (33.9 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Unlike Houndstone, Bascu has adaptability Wave Crash which is what makes it so dangerous (on top of higher attack and much higher speed). That means ain't no way Hounstone is sweeping entire teams like Basculegion can.


I don't know too much about ADV, but what I do know is that there's a ton of pokemon that get Baton Pass not just two evolution lines.


Basculegion-f wouldn't be nearly as good (it can't kill defensive Arceus even at maximum Base Power) and regular Basculin who has to Tera Ghost to get STAB would not be good in Ubers (I mean are you kidding me frickin Basculin being broken in Ubers???):

252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 376-444 (73.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 194-230 (43.6 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Tera Fighting Basculegion-F Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 260-308 (58.5 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects (200 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 240-284 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO --> Arceus goes for Wisp --> 252+ Atk Adaptability burned Basculegion-F Last Respects vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 120-142 (27.2 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after max roll on the first attack
252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 360-424 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


This statement makes no sense. First of all, why purposefully do something the worse way if you know a better way. Secondly, how is it fundamentally broken if only one mon is broken with it? I mean sure it would be broken if Koraidon or something has it, but it doesn't. Only Basculegion is even meta relevant of the mons that have it, so how does that make Last Respects broken? Like are we banning Scale Shot and not Koraidon because only Koraidon is broken with Scale Shot??? (hypothetically speaking that last one)

Its important to note that just because 1 Mon is balanced doesn't make that move balanced... Baton pass is balanced on stuff like meowstic and Kricketune... Does that make the move balanced?no..

This is assuming houndstone won't be broken BTW.. It can be busted aswell as the bulk it has is pretty good like surviving hits from mons like Koraidon even...

 

[LouisIX]

As the second guy using basculegion in a ubers team tour and probably the person spamming it the most on ladder, I honestly believes that last respect/basculegion is the only reason why ribombee is at this level of efficiency.

Not saying ribombee would be bad if LR/bascu gone, but it will be much less threatening without the last respect 0hkoing everything with just 1 stage of speed boost (yes one is all it needs).

Besides for all reasons stated, what makes last respect getting out of control is purely, clearly and cleanly because of basculegion-M though. Holding one of the perfect typing against tier staple Koraidon which you can just eved to have a high chance living a outrage/scaleshot while keeping 0hko power at 3 down,

Hide

immuning Extreme speed so that its actually checking each other with ekiller instead of ekiller checking it one-way,

I don't really pose personal hate when playing against it though. Ekiller, esp BU ekiller, is just very effective to run alongside ribombee webs because of its ability to 1. eat last respect 2. anti-sweeping almost any TR attempt, but I agree forcing to run Arceus-normal in any sort of team seems dumb in a meta where we rely on other form of arceus a lot to stop all those set-up broken like koraidon, ndm and miraidon. I am not a balance fans, and probably will not be if Koraidon still exist, but I am looking forward to more variety of teams thrives after last respect is gone.

As such, even though I have talked about a lot of technical stuff about basculegion, my vote will still belongs to my personal feeling instead of "meta healthiness".

My personal feeling: I am bored with ribom bascu spam, so ban it is.

 

[gabraltar]

It's not watch these calcs:
252 SpA Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Houndstone: 297-351 (85.3 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Houndstone in Sun: 270-318 (77.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Def Houndstone Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 96-114 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Houndstone Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 186-219 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- 95.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Houndstone: 118-139 (33.9 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Unlike Houndstone, Bascu has adaptability Wave Crash which is what makes it so dangerous (on top of higher attack and much higher speed). That means ain't no way Hounstone is sweeping entire teams like Basculegion can.


I don't know too much about ADV, but what I do know is that there's a ton of pokemon that get Baton Pass not just two evolution lines.


Basculegion-f wouldn't be nearly as good (it can't kill defensive Arceus even at maximum Base Power) and regular Basculin who has to Tera Ghost to get STAB would not be good in Ubers (I mean are you kidding me frickin Basculin being broken in Ubers???):

252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 376-444 (73.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 194-230 (43.6 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Tera Fighting Basculegion-F Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 260-308 (58.5 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects (200 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 240-284 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO --> Arceus goes for Wisp --> 252+ Atk Adaptability burned Basculegion-F Last Respects vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 120-142 (27.2 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after max roll on the first attack
252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 360-424 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


This statement makes no sense. First of all, why purposefully do something the worse way if you know a better way. Secondly, how is it fundamentally broken if only one mon is broken with it? I mean sure it would be broken if Koraidon or something has it, but it doesn't. Only Basculegion is even meta relevant of the mons that have it, so how does that make Last Respects broken? Like are we banning Scale Shot and not Koraidon because only Koraidon is broken with Scale Shot??? (hypothetically speaking that last one)

In what world is a 350 bp move that rewards bad playing not fundamentally broken

 

[ox04]

In what world is a 350 bp move that rewards bad playing not fundamentally broken

You mean 300, I'm pretty sure that's the max (unless you're counting in Revival Blessing). (Also since you're wondering in what world is it not broken in all forms and not just Bascu in not just my opinion, take for example pre-home SV Ubers where Houndstone was ass)

 

[gabraltar]

You mean 300, I'm pretty sure that's the max (unless you're counting in Revival Blessing). (Also since you're wondering in what world is it not broken in all forms and not just Bascu in not just my opinion, take for example pre-home SV Ubers where Houndstone was ass)

Im arguing that theyre fundamentally uncompetitive. They encourage bad playing.

It's also not in the tiers best interest to not take a route that would make the tier better just because of a couple of shitmons

 

[Edgar]

Last Respects is an unhealthy presence in the SV Ubers metagame, I am of the opinion that Ubers would be better off without it. While you can argue that it takes proper positioning to pull-off, there are other elements that also require that and don't have such a bad impact both in battle in the builder as Last Respects does.

Last Respects can essentially force teams that don't carry a Normal or bulky Dark-type to completely fall off when facing a pokemon such as Basculegion. Teams based-off Last Respects commonly try to execute a gameplan in which Basculegion can clear out the endgame. This can be done by forcing Teras out of the opponent or simply whittling down sturdier pokemon with your other 5 just so Basculegion can pick up the KOs with little to no effort. This core idea can be easily be found in Sticky Web and Trick Room teams.

Basculegion can regularly circumvent typings with the use of Tera-Fighting, it can easily do so due to how linear the gameplay against it is on paper and because the small variance in its sets do increase the odds for the Basculegion player. A well-timed Substitute or Tera can allow it properly set up, Aqua Jet can allow it to bypass slower priority and Tera Blast Fighting can allow it to get past Last Respects immunities. Furthermore, while often a double-edged sword, the choiced sets facilitate cleaning.

As far as Last Respects outside of Basculegion-M goes, sure, you can drop the calcs and say that it is not as strong with other pokemon. Nevertheless, a lower on-paper damage output doesn't mean it's less uncompetitive as it still follows the same concept as it would with a stronger pokemon. We mainly mention Basculegion-M because it is the pokemon that currently does the job the best, but that doesn't mean one of Basculegion-F or Houndstone wouldn't take its place if it were to be gone. And while I understand that banning Last Respects as whole makes less sense than banning pokemon individually, the groundwork for this reasoning has been stipulated time before this suspect happened, I don't think arguing about it or discussing it when the suspect is already happening is necessarily productive.

The idea that you are forced to run very specific countermeasures in order to check a game element, such as Last Respects, leads me to think that it is unhealthy. When that element is found in battle, it warps the game in a way that is undesirable in a competitive setting and thus, we'd be better off without it.

 

[Highlord]

Few problems with this move in conjunction with its users like Basculegion that all culminate together to deserve its ban:

1) It has the capability to sweep teams with very little resistance / chances of momentum change. Its power speaks of itself straight up OHKOing things like Arceus, so it really just needs to worry about speed tier which is fairly simple with Scarf, Agility or reliable Trick Room support. This is unlike other nukes in the tier which typically need to sacrifice power to gain sweeping ability.

2) Forces you to preserve Tera (Tera Normal/Dark) until the endgame, and there are very few checks outside of that. Ekiller, Wallceus, Darkceus, Grimsnarl, and Ting Lu come to mind, but Last Respects still locks them into being preserved early/midgame. Even then, it can just Tera Fighting Terablast through them when the time comes. While all mons are capable of warping the gameplan to some extent, the consequence of letting Basculegion slip through is far greater than any other mon and completely halting Tera usage for most structures in midgame is too much.

3) Extremely viable and no true bad MUs. Kind of obvious but a somewhat bulky OHKO button is gonna be relevant in nearly all MUs. Other win buttons like Goth and Ditto are only devestating in some MUs; Basculegion's nuke doesn't descriminate.