Metagame np: USUM DOU Stage 3 - Ghosts That We Knew

[lhce628]

gengar has hit a huge decline in usage
I went from putting night slash on my kartana to removing my only dark move and TTar, gengar is much less of a problem for teams.
I was anti-ban from the start of all this, as gengar yes, was a huge thing to prep for in teambuilding, but was too fragile to do anything else after trapping bulu/fini. wth that fact that it needs to mega b4 having ST makes a whole lot of difference. just put more then one zygarde/kommo-o check and u will probably be fine, if u don't gv them for free.
I actually think that kommo-o is maybe broken but I need to play more games with it b4 I can say for sure it is actually broken .

 

[SMB]

Could we have a council vote or something similar on ally switch? I know this was discussed at the beginning of usum, and even if it's not used a lot, this move keeps being dumb, robbing games and forcing unnecessary 50-50s

 

[Big_Danny_Mason]

I think re-suspecting Kang might be interesting. While it was certainly dominant at the point of it's suspect, I do feel that a little more time could have been allowed to let the meta stabilize to see if we could adapt to it. Now that the meta is a lot less passive, while still good, Kang probably wouldn't be quite so powerful. M-gengar, Kommo and bulu are all more popular/viable now and all have good kang matchups for example.

I'd also be in favor of a vote on ally switch. Its just guessing and adds nothing positive.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

ohoho I've been waiting for this question for almost 7 months.

I think this as good a time as any to seriously think about retesting Marshadow. The meta has shifted a fair bit (+ the introduction of Intimidate Incineroar) to where it wouldn't be quite as overbearing now. Pokemon like bulu, incineroar, gengar all being popular help that archetype a lot in dealing with it, the best mgross team in the format has multiple ways of neutralising marshadows threat (amoong, double intim). Even the popular hard tr build now has adjusted in such a way that the tr setters can actually live hits. I feel like only minor adaptations will be necessary to deal with marsh in the meta we have now. This is just theorying but memes/jokes aside i think it would be very interesting to see what impact marshadow would actually have.

Re: Ally switch
I would disagree with a vote on ally switch. Its nowhere near as dumb as people say it is, and I've seen precisely one game ever come down to an ally switch endgame (which couldve been avoided). I think actually hiding and revealing ally switch at a crucial time takes planning and skill to put yourself in such a spot that it has a real impact.

Re: Kang
Please don't unban this. I didnt really play much during the time kang was around but from what i understand i dont think the metagame being less passive now makes enough of a difference to make kang not ridiculous. If you freed marsh my thoughts might change...

 

[Jrenner]

It's been 2 months since the Gengarite suspect and the meta seems to have settled a bit. Is there anything that you currently see as unhealthy or worthy of suspecting? Anything currently banned that you think should be retested? We would love to hear from you!

I think that the meta is pretty settled rn and don't think anything is really banworthy, I do however think mega-Kangaskahn should be unbanned... its really not that overpowered IMO due to the parental bond nerf... I think checking that out would be great!
As to ally switch, it's not "overpowered" it's just plain annoying and is just a cancer to the meta...
marsh is one of the suspect tests I was upset about, and I would be happy seeing it unbanned... as for jirachi I'd prefer not to be flinched to death.

You seem to dismiss a Jirachi resuspect too easily, even though it was so close and every rule change since has hurt it in one way or another and it was one vote off of staying. Personally, I'd really like to see a Jirachi resuspect if only because it was so close and there's reason to believe it's gotten worse since.

this part is really just a personal opinion. I think the meta is just fine without having a mon with great defences/defensive typing mixed with follow me, good speed, mixed with not 1, but 2 60% flinch stab moves, and healing wish... it's not even that it's "too overpowered to be in the meta" IMO... it's just so annoying it's just not healthy for the meta... if you have really good luck with flinches you can take out anything slower, even stuff meant to check jirachi...

[15:36:44] Ezrael: DOU should test zekrom
[15:37:01] %daawesomedude1 (: i unironically agree
[15:37:25] Ezrael: like, it's probably worse than kyub

You seem to dismiss a Jirachi resuspect too easily, even though it was so close and every rule change since has hurt it in one way or another and it was one vote off of staying. Personally, I'd really like to see a Jirachi resuspect if only because it was so close and there's reason to believe it's gotten worse since.

This is one I never thought about... I think it could be pretty good in the DOU meta, but not overpowered.

 

[MajorBowman]

I think that the meta is pretty settled rn and don't think anything is really banworthy, I do however think mega-Kangaskahn should be unbanned... its really not that overpowered IMO due to the parental bond nerf... I think checking that out would be great!

One of the few ideas I won't really consider personally is freeing Kang. It was banned after and despite the parental bond nerf so that's definitely not a reason to unban it. Consistently doing 200 damage to whatever it wants outside of like 3 relevant pokemon regardless of typing/intimidate/status/defense boosts/literally whatever else is ridiculous and I never want to see it again.

I'll probably either edit this or write a bigger post later with more thoughts on some things I think could be done but overall I think we're at a pretty healthy point. I still don't *really* see Mega Gengar as a big issue and I unironically want to retest one (or both) of either Marshadow or Jirachi but I'm not dead set on either of those statements.

 

[talkingtree]

Re: Ally Switch

I see no reason to bother voting on this. Giving up a moveslot for it is typically difficult on most Pokemon, and at this point it's a well-known enough facet of the game that everyone should expect Ally Switch when they see a Cresselia or Rotom-W. The Pokemon that use Ally Switch are quite rare, and it's a powerful one-turn changer, but it's by no means overpowered because it's sort of like a less-powerful form of redirection that can easily backfire. If someone could point me towards a game where it is shown to be inherently uncompetitive, I'd think about it, but at this point Ally Switch is one of the few things that I wouldn't consider looking at. I also doubt the vote would reflect much different from what I've outlined in this paragraph regardless.

Re: other tests

I think towards the end of Snake draft is probably a good time to do some tests if we do any at all, and at this point in the meta I believe the most useful suspects to be done would be re-tests, as I see no outstanding threats that have flown under the radar. However, since we just tested Mega Gengar and not much has changed, retesting that doesn't feel right to me. So, our options are basically limited to Swagger (Fini makes this too strong), Snorlax (still awful to deal with, the last Pokemon we banned and it was very decisve), Mega Kangaskhan (unless something drastic changes, no), Jirachi, Marshadow, and Deoxys-A. With Intimiroar and the popularity in threats that force Deoxys-A to run a +Speed nature again, I would be surprised if a theoretical Deoxys-A retest went the other way, and I don't think it's particularly problematic at this point.

That leaves Jirachi and Marshadow. I think these are our two best options for a potential retest. Jirachi was banned by only one vote and since then, Intimiroar dropped, Mega Gengar got better, Stomping Tantrum Metagross dropped, and various other shifts have made the meta less easily controlled by Jirachi. However, I'm not sure anyone really wants Jirachi back. It brings about the chance of being flinched to death, offers tons of free turns to its teammates between redirection and speed control, and generally shifted games to a very different direction from the current meta, which I actually think is pretty great.

So Marshadow. I know some people are *very* adamantly against even considering this Pokemon, but hear me out. Marsh is an offensive powerhouse, but the introduction of more Intimidate Pokemon (including the rise in popularity of Mega Manectric), as well as the introduction of Zeraora, the surge in popularity of Mega Gengar, the general bulking up on the physical side of some Pokemon due to the threat of powerful physical attackers like Tapu Bulu... honestly, a lot has changed that could make Marshadow more manageable. I'm not going to die on this hill or even say for sure whether I'd want it to come back, and I understand that some people don't like Marshadow, but I do think it could deserve another look.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Ok, first off, how does the introduction of Incineroar make Marsh tolerable? It just gets blown back by CC, even after Intimidate.

Second off, no retests, please. Even if Marsh and Jirachi aren't broken, I wanna know if adding them back in could make the meta BETTER.

 

[talkingtree]

There is generally more Intimidate in the meta, which makes every other Pokemon safer from Marshadow. Even if Incineroar itself can't take a Close Combat, it switches in great to Spectral Thief and improves its teamamtes' chances of survival.

Also, the goal of tiering is to have a balanced metagame with the fewest bans possible. If we think that it's possible one of those Pokemon could be added back in and still result in a balanced and healthy metagame, it makes sense to try a retest.

 

[Checkmater]

However, I'm not sure anyone really wants Jirachi back. It brings about the chance of being flinched to death, offers tons of free turns to its teammates between redirection and speed control, and generally shifted games to a very different direction from the current meta, which I actually think is pretty great.

You seem to dismiss a Jirachi resuspect too easily, even though it was so close and every rule change since has hurt it in one way or another and it was one vote off of staying. Personally, I'd really like to see a Jirachi resuspect if only because it was so close and there's reason to believe it's gotten worse since.

 

[SocialSocialSocial]

[15:36:44] Ezrael: DOU should test zekrom
[15:37:01] %daawesomedude1 (: i unironically agree
[15:37:25] Ezrael: like, it's probably worse than kyub

 

[Charlotte]

Generally, I think everything that is banned should stay banned. The only exception I make to this is Eevium Z, which I don't believe is broken. Even with Stored Power Necrozma as a primary receiver, I don't think it's that good. I can't quite remember the reasoning behind the quick ban, but that was over a year ago and things have changed, Jirachi's ban being a the big one.

Gengar retest would be swell too, Shadow Tag is still as ridiculously strong as ever.

 

[Asura Crimson]

After some conversations, i'm tempted to agree with talkingtree and aurarayquaza about retest marsh. Our curent meta can be more aceptable for mash set and he can help about gengar's reign. However, i believe whe should test something more with marsh, maybe jirachi or Kangha . I wont do a defense about this two because i can see our Community still divided about this and even after talk with some friends, i dont have a solid opinion.

I think it will be more productive with we focus on marsh for now as we can see a large number of players pro retests with solids opinions and return to this two in another moment.

But if we really go to retest marsh, it will be important to rethink or kangha or jirachi (maybe more kangha than jirachi).

 

[Big_Danny_Mason]

Could we maybe do like a room tourney or two with some combo or all of the 3 allowed?

 

[HeatEdgeSword]

Perhaps it's too sudden, but a subject that I would like to bring up is Guard Split. For those that aren't unaware, Shuckle typically uses Guard Split on Blissey or Chansey to make them near unbreakable and proceeded to tear teams apart purely by their sheer bulk since Guard Split last until the Pokemon switches out. The lack of any relevant Fighting-type or setup sweeper that can dish out significant damage to these Chansey and Blissey only makes matter worse. While I'm entirely aware that there are ways to counteract this strategy (such as using Roar or Rage Powder/Follow Me before Shuckle gets the chance to use Guard Split on its intended target), it doesn't take too much skill to pull a Guard Split off and it isn't fun to face regardless of the result of the battle.

It has been quite a while since the rise of Guard Split and it has consistently been the bane of the player's existence. By contrast, Ally Switch has initially caused an uproar with more Pokemon getting the move in USUM, but most have agreed that Ally Switch isn't too consistent, takes a precious moveslot, and spread moves could do the trick. I will be open to any opinion regarding my stance for Guard Split.

tl;dr: Guard Split isn't fun and unhealthy

 

[Givrix]

Perhaps it's too sudden, but a subject that I would like to bring up is Guard Split. For those that aren't unaware, Shuckle typically uses Guard Split on Blissey or Chansey to make them near unbreakable and proceeded to tear teams apart purely by their sheer bulk since Guard Split last until the Pokemon switches out. The lack of any relevant Fighting-type or setup sweeper that can dish out significant damage to these Chansey and Blissey only makes matter worse. While I'm entirely aware that there are ways to counteract this strategy (such as using Roar or Rage Powder/Follow Me before Shuckle gets the chance to use Guard Split on its intended target), it doesn't take too much skill to pull a Guard Split off and it isn't fun to face regardless of the result of the battle.

It has been quite a while since the rise of Guard Split and it has consistently been the bane of the player's existence. By contrast, Ally Switch has initially caused an uproar with more Pokemon getting the move in USUM, but most have agreed that Ally Switch isn't too consistent, takes a precious moveslot, and spread moves could do the trick. I will be open to any opinion regarding my stance for Guard Split.

tl;dr: Guard Split isn't fun and unhealthy

You've already answered why Guard Split is not broken at all, "there are ways to counteract this strategy". These counterplays are findable in almost all teams, and there are many more ways to shut down chansey after the guard split (perish song which can be used on ggar, taunt, physical set up sweepers like scizor-m, toxic etc), and before guard split, it's easy to focus chansey/shuckle and beat it down in one turn, given that this strategy is obvious from the teampreview. Shuckle is a dead slot, you just can't rely on it if you lose Chansey.

Basically, even if I don't think banning Guard Split can change the metagame (this move is never used), "the goal of tiering is to have a balanced metagame with the fewest bans possible", they can't ban all the cheesy moves just because a few people don't know how to play against them...

 

[Red Pill PUA]

Restest everything except snorlax.

release them all at once because marsh, jir, kang all counter each other. It would be stupid to allow one to come back with out the others during an individual suspect test.

Tired of these bulky water types setting up freely and op Incineroar surviving everything except a z fighting move.

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

Restest everything except snorlax.

release them all at once because marsh, jir, kang all counter each other. It would be stupid to allow one to come back with out the others during an individual suspect test.

Tired of these bulky water types setting up freely and op Incineroar surviving everything except a z fighting move.

No.

"Broken checks broken" is not a philosophy we embrace here on Smogon. Just because these Pokemon all check each other does not mean they should be unbanned. If you're unhappy with the current state of the meta, ask the council for a suspect of the Pokemon you think are unhealthy or just play a different tier. Or at least provide more reasoning as to why you think Jirachi and Marshadow deserve a retest (the council seems to agree that Mega-Kang is still busted).

 

[Red Pill PUA]

No.

"Broken checks broken" is not a philosophy we embrace here on Smogon. Just because these Pokemon all check each other does not mean they should be unbanned. If you're unhappy with the current state of the meta, ask the council for a suspect of the Pokemon you think are unhealthy or just play a different tier. Or at least provide more reasoning as to why you think Jirachi and Marshadow deserve a retest (the council seems to agree that Mega-Kang is still busted).

Then its time for this place to change "your" philosophy because this meta is the most boring its ever been. No originality at all. Only original teams I have seen lately is my own and Kotoriwaifu who abuses the hell out of guard split.

Suspect Incineroar and lets vote or don't bring back any banned mons. One or the other. Don't matter to me i'm slaying everybody in this meta :) 1800+ elo daily, but I'm getting bored.

I think mega kang is busted also, but with marshmallow around it wouldn't be. When it got banned most megas were not released and marshadow was not around.

My reasons are the same for retesting as the previous posters wanting a restest in this thread.

There are no fighting types in this meta, marshadow was the only one that was usable.

Name anybody in the top 50 with a fighting pokemon on their team? thats right no one. Its almost impossible to run a fighting type even on a trick room team.

I don't think its healthy to have a whole type not represented aka fighting types. With kang unbanned they would be back in style and needed again to check it and incin.

 

[HeatEdgeSword]

Then its time for this place to change "your" philosophy because this meta is the most boring its ever been. No originality at all. Suspect Incineroar and lets vote or don't bring back any banned mons. One or the other. Don't matter to me i'm slaying everybody in this meta :) 1800+ elo daily, but I'm getting bored.

I think mega kang is busted also, but with marshmallow around it wouldn't be. When it got banned most megas were not released and marshadow was not around.

1. I don't see any reason why Incineroar should be suspect tested. Sure, it is one of the best Pokemon at the moment, the lack of originality is debatable, but it isn't driving the metagame to an unhealthy direction in any way.
2. Just because Marshadow can reliably counter Mega Kangaskhan doesn't mean that all of Mega Kangaskhan's problem will be solved as not many can take a Parental Bond-boosted Seismic Toss in DOU, unless they just so happen to be a Ghost-type. Even if Marshadow is still allowed in DOU, it's not a good idea to free Mega Kangakshan at all. I don't want to come across as rude, but I honestly don't get what are you trying to say in this post.

 

[Arcticblast]

the problem with Fighting types isn't a lack of targets for Fighting moves - Incineroar, Kyurem-B, and Ferrothorn spring to mind as strong Pokemon weak to Fighting. the problem is that Fighting types need to be absurdly powerful or they simply can't compete against a field incredibly hostile to Fighting attacks. out of the top two tiers on the VR, over half either resist Fighting or hit Fighting super effective. running Fighting mons simply doesn't pay off. this is part of the reason Kang was so good - Fighting types simply don't do enough to actually justify running, and even when you did run a Fighting type against a Kang team, Kang was more than safe hiding behind the 3-4 resists every team tends to have. Fighting types need to bring a LOT to the table to be good. we lost Scrafty when Incineroar got Intimidate, because Incineroar's Fire type is just better than Scrafty's FIghting type - all things considered, they're basically the same Pokemon otherwise. Marshadow was straight up busted. Kommo-o is incredibly powerful and can absolutely run away with games (although it is arguably a "bad" Fighting type, since it often doesn't run Fighting moves). people have also been experimenting with Blaziken lately iirc, which comes with the benefits of a strong secondary typing and Speed Boost

also Red Pill PUA if you're going to talk about ladder accomplishments and your "original teams" then give us a username and some interesting-looking teams (even if it's just the names of six Pokemon) or we're just going to ignore you and move on with our lives. you can't just make a bunch of bold claims like that and then not back them up. I'm also interested in hearing how Jirachi or Kangaskhan counter Marshadow (since they "all counter each other" according to your original post)

a personal opinion that's neither here nor there

Marshadow meta was incredibly unfun because there was simply no reason not to use Marshadow on your team - and Marshadow was a very viable win condition, whereas Landorus-T and Incineroar in their primes didn't really do this. Marshadow speed ties determined entire games, Psychic types were utterly useless without Kasib Berry. setup was impossible unless you had an absolutely godly supporting cast, because your boosts could be used against you by your opponent's Marshadow. it was a bad time all around for everybody except AuraRayquaza

 

[n10siT]

i think I’ve posted this in every thread in this section at this point but i guess we need the idea drilled into our heads more

THE LADDER IS NOT INDICATIVE OF THE META’S CURRENT STATE AND BEING GOOD ON THE LADDER, WHILE ITS OWN ACCOMPLISHMENT, DOES NOT TRANSLATE TO METAGAME KNOWLEDGE OR SKILL

“The only teams i see are mine and randomladderguy123” maybe watch some tournament battles then? Some games that matter? Games where people took more than 10 minutes preparing a team? We only use the ladder for suspect tests because it gives us a way to give everyone the chance to vote. Most of us would probably rather let the council + a selected group of players to vote, as they are the people who know what they’re talking about, but that wouldn’t be fair and we want to promote inclusivity and grow the game as much as possible. And I’m sorry for this post being contradictory to the previous statement, but you cannot claim you know what is best for the tier just because you played a few ladder games.

I promise that if metagame adjustments need to be made, they will be. The format is in good hands and i trust the people in charge of it a lot more than i do someone who’s pissed off that good Pokémon are good and thinks jirachi is a marshadow check? My genuine advice is to lurk more: there is so much about Pokémon to be learned from our great tournament community, and you’ll find all of us more than happy to help anyone who asks for it! We absolutely want everyone to get better and learn more but it’s immensely offputting to see “this metagame sucks the ladder sucks” from someone who frankly isn’t experienced enough to make that claim. This post came off a bit meaner than i intended to be, please know it’s not personal and my point is that it takes some amount of work to build an opinion that people can work with.

Like, suspect incineroar? Great! Show me A: why we should do that and B: games where incineroar has had an unhealthy impact OR show how incin has a negative impact on teambuilding. There’s a right way to have these discussions, and prefacing them with “it’s all bad and you’re all dumb” isn’t the right way

 

[miltankmilk]

I think there are some frustrating pieces in the metagame right now but I don't think boredom or some sort of singular dominant team is one of them. There are a lot of different compositions that saw success in this first 4 weeks of Smogon Snake Draft, and even if I personally found building to be quite frustrating I felt like there were still a bunch of different options I had to choose from.

Something that is definitely frustrating both to play against and to think about "well fuck, thats actually a good pokemon" is Chansey. And god i hate myself for saying this and im not cleaning up the mess that auraray is gonna make in his pants but it might be time to revisit marshadow. I still think unresisted stabs are pretty dumb and its z move and breaking through sub are gonna make it stupid strong, but with it being a long time since it's been visited we should probably at least reevaluate that suspect test given the support for its retest.

 

[Red Pill PUA]

i think I’ve posted this in every thread in this section at this point but i guess we need the idea drilled into our heads more

THE LADDER IS NOT INDICATIVE OF THE META’S CURRENT STATE AND BEING GOOD ON THE LADDER, WHILE ITS OWN ACCOMPLISHMENT, DOES NOT TRANSLATE TO METAGAME KNOWLEDGE OR SKILL

“The only teams i see are mine and randomladderguy123” maybe watch some tournament battles then? Some games that matter? Games where people took more than 10 minutes preparing a team? We only use the ladder for suspect tests because it gives us a way to give everyone the chance to vote. Most of us would probably rather let the council + a selected group of players to vote, as they are the people who know what they’re talking about, but that wouldn’t be fair and we want to promote inclusivity and grow the game as much as possible. And I’m sorry for this post being contradictory to the previous statement, but you cannot claim you know what is best for the tier just because you played a few ladder games.

I promise that if metagame adjustments need to be made, they will be. The format is in good hands and i trust the people in charge of it a lot more than i do someone who’s pissed off that good Pokémon are good and thinks jirachi is a marshadow check? My genuine advice is to lurk more: there is so much about Pokémon to be learned from our great tournament community, and you’ll find all of us more than happy to help anyone who asks for it! We absolutely want everyone to get better and learn more but it’s immensely offputting to see “this metagame sucks the ladder sucks” from someone who frankly isn’t experienced enough to make that claim. This post came off a bit meaner than i intended to be, please know it’s not personal and my point is that it takes some amount of work to build an opinion that people can work with.

Like, suspect incineroar? Great! Show me A: why we should do that and B: games where incineroar has had an unhealthy impact OR show how incin has a negative impact on teambuilding. There’s a right way to have these discussions, and prefacing them with “it’s all bad and you’re all dumb” isn’t the right way

Are you saying the ladder doesn't matter and the only games/people that matter are the ones that play in the same exact close knit exclusive tournaments you guys play, where you all already know each others play styles and tendencies? Id argue the exact opposite.

It takes a way more complete team to stay on top the ladder than creating a team to only be used vs your buddy and you already know what hes going to be doing and his complete game plan from the 100s of tournaments you played against each other.

So because someone won some irrelevant close knit tournament that gives them the "knowledge" and "authority" of this game?

You guys also can't claim you know best just because you played a few closed off tournament games against your council buddy's you played already 100s of times.

I trust the ladder a lot more than some tournaments. What makes the tournaments special? If being on top of the ladder is not enough to have a voice on here ill be happy to hijack and win these tournaments. Since that seems to be the only measure of knowledge you guys seem to be using as a prerequisite to prove if someone knows what they are talking about.

 

[MajorBowman]

Everyone involved needs to calm down a bit and cut the aggression.

It is 100% ok to hold a different opinion than someone else. It is not ok to start attacking other people for holding a different opinion.

This thread is meant for metagame discussion and I'm thrilled that it's being used as such, just keep the personal jabs to a minimum (zero).