np: UU Stage 3 - We Are The Champions

[Scoopapa]

206 HP / 60 SpA / 244 Spe, Calm gets the job done, but unfortunately all bets are off if it's a Modest Rose. 252 HP / 12 SpD / 244 Spe, Calm will usually survive the attack from Modest Rose but it doesn't quite guarantee the KO after one layer of SR and LO recoil like 60 SpA does. Getting the KO isn't all that important if it's an offensive rose, though, since you can just Recover off the attack without having to worry about Spikes being set up. Calm is ever so slightly more efficient than Timid when it comes to reaching that 307 speed.

 

[Meru]

The comparison of Froslass/Blastoise to Roserade/Cryogonal falls short for one painstaking reason. Roserade has Sleep Powder. While Froslass has Thunder Wave, it isn't as big of a problem as permanently disabling your opponent's spinner. Mixed with being SR weak, and the amount of Pursuiters available for other reasons (such as Alakazam) and I just don't see Cryogonal shining in the UU metagame...

 

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

is there any reason to actually ev cryogonal in defense

it isnt taking even neutral physical hits

 

[thecrowing2k8]

Does anyone use Aerodactyl in this meta?
I find he pairs well with Stoutland in the sand for a great offensive duo.
I run a hone claws set with EQ/Stone Edge/Aqua Tail.

 

[Jaetheho]

What do you guys think about hitmonlee?
now that unburden is released, it can outspeed stoutland and rape shit with normal gem + fake out

is there any reason to actually ev cryogonal in defense

it isnt taking even neutral physical hits

a 252hp 252def bold cryogonal is surprisingly bulky.

 

[Godsend]

Does anyone use Aerodactyl in this meta?
I find he pairs well with Stoutland in the sand for a great offensive duo.
I run a hone claws set with EQ/Stone Edge/Aqua Tail.

I used that first :D
It's pretty awesome, Aero can destory a lot of things that wall Stout.
On a related note, I've been seeing a lot less Sand recently, I'm not sure why, I think people have just started to figure it out.

Also, Reachzero's offensive Porygon2 is like the best pokemon I've used in a LONG time.

 

[Agammemnon]

So no one's crying about Chansey ?

 

[DetroitLolcat]

So no one's crying about Chansey ?

Not really, it's not nearly as good as it used to be with Spikes, Sand, SR, and Machamp everywhere. Throw in Stoutland nuking it, Chandelure setting up on it, and Roserade setting up on it, and it goes from "Let's wall the metagame!" to "Eh, Toxic a Bulky Water and then become Machamp chow."

 

[CedOmega]

The UU metagame is being changed drastically by the Dream World. Sheer Force Nidoking & Magic Guard Alakazam are becoming used more & more do to their ability to abuse Life Orb while taking no recoil damage from its use.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Sheer Force Nidoking is already a pretty good threat in the game since its inception (it was one of the first mons to be released iirc).

If you really want to talk about drastic, its Sableye.

Just 2-3 weeks ago sand was still rather common, but now weather is almost a thing of the past. I rarely even see Abomasnow/Hippowdon in one out of maybe 10, 20 battles? Definitely seen a lot more Roserade though.

p.s. carry a Sableye around. Really. This guy is good.

 

[CedOmega]

Sheer Force Nidoking is already a pretty good threat in the game since its inception (it was one of the first mons to be released iirc).

If you really want to talk about drastic, its Sableye.

Just 2-3 weeks ago sand was still rather common, but now weather is almost a thing of the past. I rarely even see Abomasnow/Hippowdon in one out of maybe 10, 20 battles? Definitely seen a lot more Roserade though.

p.s. carry a Sableye around. Really. This guy is good.

Yeah. Sableye gaining Prankster w/ access to moves like Will-o-wisp & Recover makes him tough. But priority Taunt is what makes it one of the best Prankster in the constantly changing metagame.
DW Nidoking, however, is a great abuser of Life Orb w/ STAB Earth Power, 2x boosted Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Ice beam, thunderbolt, etc. He also rids the field of T-spikes upon entry & takes little damage from Stealth rock, which is one of his best qualities as an option for any team. :D
Also, Roserade, even when scarfed, only do minimum damage to Nidoking. Having no STAB Extrasensory, Roserade can be OHKO/2HKO'ed w/ a Life Orb+Sheer Force boosted Ice beam or Fire Blast/Flamethrower from a +1 natured DW Nidoking.

 

[SJCrew]

Just 2-3 weeks ago sand was still rather common, but now weather is almost a thing of the past.

Yesterday, I just logged on and saw Earthworm ladder up to the mid 1300s with Sand. I have a good buddy in top 10 using Rain, WhiteQueen is in top 5 with Hail, and take a wild guess at what I'm using. Weather didn't go anywhere, it's still easily the most dominating force in all of Pokemon this gen. You probably haven't had a chance to face anyone really good yet.

@ Ced: I can tell you're pretty new to the game, but a few things: Nidoking is completely OHKOed by Roserade's Leaf Storm and Roserade faster. If you suspect an offensive variant (the only one that will try to check you), switch out immediately because you know what's coming.

Fire moves are pretty funny on Nidoking, I've always wondered what people used them for. STAB Ground to destroy Steels, and non-STAB Fire attacks...also to destroy Steels! Grass-types? You already have Ice Beam and STAB Poison...

I know Poison gets a lot of flak for being a terrible attacking type, and it is, but just not on a Pokemon like Nidoking who gets STAB on it, has all of the coverage in the world and can destroy anything that resists it. There are very few Steels in UU and he can threaten all of them with just Earth Power, in contrast to OU, where some Steels are neutral or even immune to it. Sludge Wave is his strongest move and you really should be using it all of the time.

 

[Pocket]

Fire Blast does hit significantly harder than Ice Beam against Grass Types, though! It's also good for hitting Heracross :d

 

[Mishra]

@SJcrew

I really don't know. the only Pokemon I can think you would want a fire technique for is the exceedingly rare Ferroseed, and maybe escalvier (not sure if earth power just gets there)


Also @ReachZero: I don't know if you remember me, you played me twice in one day on pokeomon online, but I adapted your Spirtomb, and especially your Pory2. Offensive Pory2 is absolutely amazing. If you know when to switch him in, getting that extra +1, without being locked into a move like specs would is phenomenal.

Also, playing on pokemon line is horrible. They BLed Roserade ><. Although metagross and bronzong in UU was kind of interesting.

 

[SJCrew]

@ Pocket: Then you have Sludge Wave, which doesn't miss, still hits harder than Fire Blast on Grass-types, and covers Heracross anyway (not to mention it's OHKOed by Sludge Wave after a CC drop and Nidoking resists almost all of its coverage moves). Also, Water-types trying to switch into Nidoking fearing a Fire move will be in for a [quite literally] nasty surprise...

 

[Mishra]

I would like to make a suggestion for the council to discuss:

Roserade, not only the number one pokemon in UU, but possible the strongest abuser of hazards in the tier, only beaten by Deo(s), Fortress (both OU). In the tier itself, Roserade is the only pokemon with the ability to use Spikes and Toxic Spikes (aside from Omastar, but he has better things to be doing, and his defensive typing is horrible. Roserade's typing is also very strong for a hazard build as she has some useful resists, and of course, the ability to suck other team's toxic spikes.

When Roserade isn't setting spikes, she can threaten pokes with a menecing 125 base special attack, which isn't powerful on its own compared to pokes like chandelure or Jolteon, but unlike those two, no single pokemon can set up spikes with relative ease, and hit like a truck. Deo(s) suffers from fragility, while Fortresses attack possibilities are laughable at best (although fortress is amazing, and still OU since he beats every other hazard layer, except perhaps froslass if it doesn't carry gyro ball, and froslass isn't really ou material). And if Roserade chooses not to go the hazard route, or just uses Toxic Spikes, she gets the ability to use Sleep powder, which under the new mechanics, can be devastating.

The other issue with Roserade is the lack of rapid spinners that can force her out. If we look at some of the other hazard layers. Hitmontop can spin all day on pokes like donphan or Deo(d), and even carry toxic/foresight for ghosts that attempt to spinblock. Donphan can come in on any physical hazard layer in the tier. What spinner can safely switch on Roserade? I can only think of two, neither of which are UU: Torkoal and Crygonal. Both are SR weak, and neither can carry a move to spin through ghosts.


Now make no mistake, I am not saying Roserade should be banned or not. If I had to choose, I would lean more on banning as I feel the ability to set-up hazards is too far ahead of the ability to clear them, when Hitmontop/Donphan were the top used pokemon. I think now, its just clear users know who are the more reliable pokes for setting them up. And if Roserade isn't an issue, I have no problem with continuing to use him. =)

I admit, I am not the best at creating arguments, but anyone have thoughts on this?

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I think Roserade will probably get a discussion after Hippowdon/Stoutland. Right now the council is going to discuss Sand in general next.

If people start posting for a discussion about Roserade, it will most definitely get a council debate.

 

[Mishra]

I think Roserade will probably get a discussion after Hippowdon/Stoutland. Right now the council is going to discuss Sand in general next.

If people start posting for a discussion about Roserade, it will most definitely get a council debate.

Fair enough.

If you don't mind me asking, what's your opinion? While the council discusses sand (which strangely enough, I feel I'm on the fence about that too, leaning slightly towards sand is fine), I was hoping to start a Roserade discussion here, since I feel the forum has gotten a bit stale.

 

[Heysup]

I think Roserade using Spikes is ok, but I'd never use it. It's sort of underwhelming compared to a simple Life Orb set. Sleep Powder on a sweeper is just fucking absurd, and Roserade has so many easy switch ins. I wouldn't ban it though, it's just really good.

 

[Spork]

One thing that is just awesome about Roserade is Weather Ball. Both Grass/Rock and Grass/Ice offer great SE coverage, especially alongside Sludge Bomb, and Roserade can take advantage of both depending on the team. Access to powerful special rock attacks is pretty unique to her, and she can take advantage of it better than most.

 

[Banedon]

Alakazam's found a new innovation when it comes to four moveslot syndrome called one-item syndrome.

The reason I didn't mention Focus Sash Alakazam in my paragraphs is because it's walled by a ton of stuff. I promise you I took SashZam into consideration when I submitted my paragraphs, but I remembered that it's pretty much designed to get one kill and then die, just like just about every revenge killer in any metagame.

Sashed Alakazam has little to no sweeping potential because it has the ability to 2KO everything, but will be killed in 2 hits by anything. It literally can't switch into anything, which relegates its function to pure revenge killer. Because of this, it's easier to tell what kind of Alakazam you're facing.

I don't see why you think revenge killers are supposed to get one kill and die. They're supposed to force their targets out or kill thet if they stay in, and then switch out themselves. If circumstances allow they can shoot for a late-game sweep (I'd be surprised if you haven't seen Scarf Heracross sweep teams with Close Combat late-game). The Scarfed revenge killer is a critical part of many teams because if things go badly, it can often save the day by revenging.

You say Sash Alakazam has little to no sweeping potential because it has the ability to 2HKO everything but will be killed in two hits by anything + it cannot switch into anything. But if that's true, then LO Alakazam also 2HKOes everything and will be killed in one hit by anything and can switch into even less. Why, then did you not mention Sash in your paragraph?

As for breaking down Pokemon like Hippowdon and Milotic, both are 2HKOed by Sash Grass Knot. I don't know if it's just you guys using Sub LO Alakazam without GK or what, but the Sash set will usually have four attacks and one of those four will be Grass Knot.

I stopped there because the point is made. It's still a deadly Pokemon with deadly coverage moves, deadly power, and most importantly deadly Speed. Sash gives it a second life. You try to revenge kill it with Scarf Darma, you lose a Pokemon. If you try to switch in a fast Pursuit user, you also lose. Anything faster is beaten easily with sash, and then you're stuck with slower Pokemon who are forced to take a hit...if they can.

You mean two hits ... one to break the Sash, and then the second because you're slower.

 

[Pocket]

If you use Honko's spread damage calculator, you could tell that Alakazam actually fails to 2HKO several UU mons without Life Orb (even with Grass Knot).

http://www.honko.freehosting.com/coverage_calc.html

Here are the list of mons that are NOT 2HKOed by Alakazam:

• Spiritomb
• Mandibuzz
• Togekiss
• Altaria
• Snorlax
• Escavalier
• Shaymin
• Raikou
• Deoxys-D
• Registeel
• Mew
• Umbreon

Note that some of these mons are not even defensive mons. Not too sure why Sableye didn't show up...

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Sableye doesn't have an analysis up yet iirc

 

[FlareBlitz]

Here are the list of mons that are NOT 2HKOed by Alakazam:

• Spiritomb
• Mandibuzz
• Togekiss (36.1% - 42.5% from Psychic against 252/0, probable 2hko after SR, psyshock guarantees 2hko)
• Altaria (46.9% - 55.4% from Psyshock, guaranteed 2hko)
• Milotic (47.3% - 56% from grass knot against 252/0, guaranteed 2hko)
• Snorlax
• Escavalier
• Shaymin
• Raikou (all offensive variants are 2hko'd by either psychic or psyshock, defensive [lol] variants need psyshock)
• Suicune (49.5% - 58.4% from grass knot against 252/0, guaranteed 2hko)
• Deoxys-D
• Registeel
• Mew (252/0 mew takes 44.6% - 52.5% from shadow ball, guaranteed 2hko)
• Umbreon
• Zapdos (physically defensive variants 2hko'd by psychic)
• Gligar (43.1% - 51.2% from Psychic, highly probable 2hko)

Note that some of these mons are not even defensive mons. Not too sure why Sableye didn't show up...

I have bolded Pokemon whose best/most common defensive sets will not avoid a 2hko from Alakazam - saying "specially defensive suicune/milotic can survive 2 hits from alakazam" is dumb, especially when they can't do anything back. I've also italicized Pokemon who suck.

So based on this list, that leaves us with seven viable Pokemon in the metagame (including sableye) who can take two hits from Alakazam with just stealth rock up, without sand or spikes. And after looking at the calcs, all of them are 2hko'd with just one layer of spikes (although most of those kills rely on fail blast) if sandstream is up. Those are fairly common conditions (hippo is number 2, roserade is number 1) but it still might seem like we're stacking the deck in favor of alakazam. Do remember though, this is all for sash kazam. LO kazam just 2hkos all of these anyway.

I have no particular opinion on alakzam, just stating facts.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

I don't think it's safe to assume Alakazam is carrying Psyshock, especially Focus Sash 'Zam who really needs the power of Psychic.
Also, Umbreon is not that bad of a pokemon in this metagame.