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np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I've been keeping up with this thread, whereas Pocket has made some brilliant points, I'm inclined to agree with Heysup here, and change my opinion from no ban to the preferable banning of Snow Cloak (or froslass). On a totally unrelated note, i had no idea that taunt could miss SC abusers, most frustrating thing ever. I was on the server abusing the little bastard known as sableye, and got counter trolled by taunting a froslass on the switch, missing then trying again and missing while he taunted me back.
Well, I changed my team to hail, and whoever had the idea of running 3 snow cloakers, AWESOME IDEA!
Aside from getting a lot of flack from others for being a haxer, my team is just wrecking. Only two pokemon really give me any trouble: Machamp and Darmanitan. The former doesn't give a damn about cloak with decent sp.d, and the latter is just a complete nuisance.
Aside from getting a lot of flack from others for being a haxer, my team is just wrecking. Only two pokemon really give me any trouble: Machamp and Darmanitan. The former doesn't give a damn about cloak with decent sp.d, and the latter is just a complete nuisance.
Stick a Slowbro on the team and go to town on the ladder. Slowbro's biggest nuisances are Grass types like Roserade and Shaymin which are easy pickings for Blizzard spam.
Yeah I ran into a few hail teams who are abusing the triple snow cloak strategy. Snow Cloak creates a decisive miss almost every game, because for offensive teams it's the difference between countering something and losing to it. Mamoswine and Glaceon are frankly just as bad as Froslass - Escavalier gets 2hko'd by Specs Blizzard, so a miss turns a solid check into a free kill. Similarly, something like Heracross can no longer check Mamoswine reliably because if Close Combat misses, Icicle Crash kos (and so do two ice shards).
Seriously, whenever I win against a hail team, I don't think "I played pretty well", I think "oh thank god I didn't miss". That can't be healthy for the game.
Seriously, whenever I win against a hail team, I don't think "I played pretty well", I think "oh thank god I didn't miss". That can't be healthy for the game.
I tried out this team as a direct result of reading this post. It really is stupid how easy it is to ladder with. You just get bailed out so often and do things like kill Escavalier with Froslass, kill Suicune with Mamoswine, kill anything with Specs Glaceon... not only is it retarded but it's a solid rebuke to anyone who is saying that Froslass is the only problem with Snow Cloak. Some people have acknowledged that a miss on Mamoswine can ruin your day but honestly Glaceon has been much worse. Specs Blizzard just hits so ridiculously hard. Add in Paralysis support and it really gets out of hand. "Spizzblam" is now higher on the ladder than any of my real alts, after basically one night of heavy laddering, which is just dumb. Many of the more profitable wins were because of Snow Cloak hax. I even played against Jak3 several times, who was using the same lineup; guess how many of those matches were decided by hax?
Last time I checked, Froslass, Glaceon, and Mamoswine constitute a majority of pokemon who have Snow Cloak. 3/4 is probably even better than the fraction of pokemon who are broken with Double Team.
Well if those three are broken because of Snow Cloak ban them, not Snow Cloak. Unless ALL pokemon with the ability are broken, I rather just ban the pokemon.
As said again,many pokes with the Swift Swim ability were banned in Rain without being broken.
Also the moves Minimize and Double Team are not broken on all pokes that get them(not even in the majority)yet they were banned.
Same goes for OHKO moves.
Playing the numbers game still pushes the ban against Snow Cloak. Everything else in the past we've banned due to a controversial ability were the sole examples. Garchomp with Sand Veil, Blaziken with Speed Boost, etc. Nothing else can use Speed Boost or Sand Veil as well as those two. The fact that three random Ice-types, one of which is normally a pretty mediocre Pokemon, are now considered broken under the clout of this ability alone pushes the bias against the ability.
One, then okay, let's just ban Froslass. Two abusers puts it up for debate. But three? What's next, Beartic-based teams? Are you really confident in your ability to counter that either when a miss means he is probably killing your Chandelure?
Devil's advocate here, but there's also the option of banning Abomasnow/Snow Warning, instead of Snow Cloak.
Banning Snow Cloak results in a soft ban on Froslass and lol Beartic, and depriving Glaceon of egg moves (I think?). Mamoswine doesn't give a shit, obviously.
Banning Snow Warning just soft bans Abamasnow (and Snover, I guess..), and how many hail teams are we really gonna expect to see if we remove most of it's best abusers anyway?
Banning Snow Cloak results in a soft ban on Froslass and lol Beartic, and depriving Glaceon of egg moves (I think?). Mamoswine doesn't give a shit, obviously.
Banning Snow Warning just soft bans Abamasnow (and Snover, I guess..), and how many hail teams are we really gonna expect to see if we remove most of it's best abusers anyway?
what's the point of fucking around when you can just get it over with in one swipe? just ban snow cloak, none of this 'o well beartic doesn't abuse it that much, so don't include it' bs. it's like some of you guys are just trying to create conflict rather than just using your heads. as has been stated before, it's not smogon's goal to ban as little as possible. if all but 1 of the snow cloak abusers are 'good', who gives a shit, just ban snow cloak as a whole.
This seems like a good time to do a Snow Cloak + Snow Warning ban. A straight-up ban on any one part of the problem has negative consequences (SC ban soft-bans Froslass and Beartic, lol Snow Warning ban bans Abomasnow/Snover unnecessarily, the individual mons appear to not be broken in themselves with Froslass being a possible exception, just SC pushes them overboard) while a SC+SW ban doesn't. The only real problem with this solution is that it is a complex ban, and I'm going to be honest here: If something like "Pokemon with the abilities Snow Cloak and Snow Warning cannot be on the same team" is too "complex" for someone to grasp, they're probably not going to be very competitive in the first place.
Well, I think the ban lists should be easy for everyone to understand. I could easily get my head around some extremely "complex" bans, as I'm sure you could too, but I think most casual players would prefer simply a simple list of what they can't use, rather than a few paragraphs. The people that post in this thread are a minute proportion of the people that use the tier lists tbh.
You can say the same exact thing for Aldaron's proposal. Is Luvdisc broken with DrizzleSwim? Is Magikarp broken? No. It was Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops (mainly) that made it broken. UU had no problem banning Vulpix until Limbo, whats wrong with doing the same to Beartic?
EDIT: oh. Damn misinterpretations >.<
I don't think it's that bad. Here's an example:
OU
Bans:
Excadrill
Garchomp
Moody
Combo Bans:
Drizzle + Swift Swim
UU
Bans:
Staraptor
Hippowdon
Drought
Combo Bans:
Snow Warning + Snow Cloak
RU
Bans:
Venomoth
Yanmega
Combo Bans:
Shell Smash + Baton Pass
Pretty simple list. No paragraphs. As long as the combo bans are listed anywhere the singular bans are, there shouldn't be a problem in understanding. Also, PO tells you why something is illegal if it is, so it's fairly easy to see where you went wrong without even checking the list. If someone can't figure out to set their tier to UU when their team gets OU battles, and they can't figure out how to click the tier list link at the top of the server, and they can't ask the chat for help, I don't think it's our problem.
Personally I think if we're using Evasion Clause as our justification then we should just ban Snow Cloak and call it a day. But I don't mind the combo ban since it lets Froslass stay. There's only a fine line between "broken only with Snow Cloak" and "not broken but uncompetitive due to Snow Cloak" and I think the results of the Aboma/Froslass/Glaceon/Mamoswine/Slowbro/Flygon experiment could support either conclusion about the Snow Cloakers.
breh
強いだね
I was saying the opposite of what you interpreted.
Snow Cloak ban > 3 abusers ban.
I personally don't think Glaceon is broken, or Mamo for that matter, I was just stating that I don't want any pokemon banned that are not broken. Froslass is the only I find broken. (and that is because with one miss it is pretty much for sure gets you three layers of spikes @.@)
Mamoswine is always dangerous plain and simple, that is why I was always on the fence of calling it broken since Snow Cloak was always straddling a fence for me as that is one Pokemon you do not want to miss (especially since you already have such few checks/counters against it thanks to having such a great movepool). Glaceon on the other hand is a power house no doubt but has pretty bad coverage to work with. But I think Froslass is still the main culprit.
Reason being that in a 3 SC team the spikes she provides is what pushes SC abuse over the edge. I don't mind missing as much but I do mind when I am still punished by intelligent switches so that my counters end up easily being checks to Mamoswine/Glaceon since they do not enjoy entering into a field and being stripped of X% health due to X layers of spikes + hail damage on top of damage taken from whatever incoming attack I switched them into (which are difficult enough to spin because of Froslass ALSO acting as a spin blocker and even worse hard to bounce back with Xatu for obvious reasons). Course you could argue that intelligent switching is still punished by misses but more or less it is discouraged once X amount of spikes are on the field heck even revenging is punished by merit of the same hazards which are set up and blocked with far too much ease thanks to Froslass' combination of typing+movepool+ability which is why I do not blame spikes but rather the spiker herself. Sure Froslass has the weakest offense of all SC users but the layers of spikes+hail damage actually compensate well for what she lacks so that she can be an offensive presence of her own using Blizzard (with chance to freeze should she opt not to paralyze the opponent).
A combo ban of Snow Warning and Snow Cloak is the best solution!
We lose nothing and we get rid of the annoying misshax.
By banning Snow Cloak alone,some pokes get soft-banned and some others lose important moves.
By banning Froslass,Mamoswine and Glaceon we lose 3 very valuable pokes from our meta.
We lose nothing and we get rid of the annoying misshax.
By banning Snow Cloak alone,some pokes get soft-banned and some others lose important moves.
By banning Froslass,Mamoswine and Glaceon we lose 3 very valuable pokes from our meta.
If you ban Glaceon you also remove it from RU which would rather piss our Hail players off.
Gonna highlight this up because I feel this is the more elegant solution and voices my sentiments more accurately than I can myself, quite frankly I have to agree with this interpretation of the argument. It isn't SC so much that breaks Hail but its hazards in combination with SC with the difficulty in removing them which makes it hard to deal with.
I can't support the SC + Snow Warning ban because I feel it really is a unwarranted and silly ban when the pool of mons able to use it is but 3-4, it honestly defies all common sense. The only one of these with any relevance is Froslass and Mamoswine is a monster in its own right outside of Hail as well.
Seriously if there is a tone down on the ridiculous ease of using hazards and difficulty in ridding of them. I guarantee you I wouldn't care as much about Beartic or Glaceon Snow Cloak misses. No really what would you even use these two for if you banned them from existing alongside Abomasnow with a softban?
See if I really mind a miss or two from those two when my Deoxys-D/Empolean/Snorlax/Cresselia whatever isn't being ripped apart by Toxic/Spikes/SR not because I didn't prepare a Spinner/Xatu but because it got cockblocked by Lass.
Hubbub about Hail
I do not believe that Froslass is broken. I do not even believe that Froslass holding BrightPowder is broken. With all the hubbub about hail, sandstorm is still quite powerful. In fact, if Swampert moves down, it will be the better of the two weathers. Once Sand Rush Sandslash is released, it will be a very powerful and speedy Pokémon, and will likely be tiered UU, where it will dominate. More to my original point, there should be no combo ban on Snow Cloak, and there shouldn't even be a ban on BrightPowder and Lax Incense. None of the aforementioned abilities or items break the metagame.
I do not believe that Froslass is broken. I do not even believe that Froslass holding BrightPowder is broken. With all the hubbub about hail, sandstorm is still quite powerful. In fact, if Swampert moves down, it will be the better of the two weathers. Once Sand Rush Sandslash is released, it will be a very powerful and speedy Pokémon, and will likely be tiered UU, where it will dominate. More to my original point, there should be no combo ban on Snow Cloak, and there shouldn't even be a ban on BrightPowder and Lax Incense. None of the aforementioned abilities or items break the metagame.
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