np: UU Stage 5 - Every Rose Has Its Thorns

[jamashawalker]

You know what I think though, Stealth Rock ought to be banned. The only reason it sounds crazy is because everyone is too used to it and its not actually a something you cannot put a face on. If I am correct, Smogon bans stuff because it is just clearly unfair and pure luck based (see: Double Team) or they are just clearly forcing the metagame to adapt to it too much. Stealth Rock fits the second. Charizard looks like a fine Pokemon to me doesn't it? Great Speed for UU and very usable offense, not to mention if you use Sunny Day+Solar Power (just ONE turn of set up) you are essentially going to KO anything and everything slower than you (which is about 70% of the tier really). Yet Charizard is in the lonely depths of RU, just because Stealth Rock makes is damn near impossible to set up.

If Charizard was the lone loser because of Stealth Rock I would have no problem with the move, and yet it is not. Articuno, decent special wall with phazing recovery and Toxic right? No because it can wall nothing at 50%. Scyther has awesome power and is fast enough to maul most of the tier. It also has beautiful coverage with Bug, Flying and Fighting leaving nothing I can think of for unresisted hits except Zapdos. Actualy most things will have to eat a STAB move or a super effective Brick Break.

All of these pokes and probably lots more are hardly ever used none of them making it to even UU. One move Stealth Rock has made so many pokemon almost unusable, so why shouldn't it be banned?

edit: inb4icatchhellforevensuggestingthis

About only 15 pokemon are 4x weak to Stealth Rock. Of those 15 only 8 are competatively viable; Moltres, Charizard, Volcarona, Articuno, Yanmega, Ho-oh, Scyther, Ninjask. And 3 of them are already seeing high usage in their respective tiers. So we should really think about banning the best support move so that only 8 pokemon can played without the stigma of losing half of their life? If let's say over 50% of pokemon lost half their life because of Stealth Rock, then this move wouldve been banned a long time ago.

It's hard being a Deoxys-D counter and knowing he's gonna get Spikes up anyway. It's also hard being a team full of Deoxys counters and watching him get hazards up anyway...over and over again.

Actually I would say your video showed how easy it is to have team synergy around Deoxys-D. That guy had multiple ways to beat your deoxys but you always had a way to retaliate with another poke. Thats what really caught my eye in that video.

Right now idk whether to call deoxys a nuinsance or really game changing. Having one on your team and your opponent doesnt, isn't similar to like it was back in staraptor or vulpix days. Where you had an auto team advantage or even an auto-gg. But I have seen so many games where the match was borderline determined by the speed-tie of taunt.

Anyways to bring up an old post of diamonds in the rough. Weavile is still one of the best underrated sweeper in this metagame. So many teams are just weak to all of its moves. It only has literally 0 to 1 counter on every team. Also another diamond in the rough is Galvantula, Yanmega, and Offensive Venomoth. Bug Buzz IMO is one of the best offensive moves in the tier right now. Limited Special walls, hits the most popular pokes in UU and for all three coverage moves and/or abilities are there to support Bug Buzz. Its so sexy seeing something like galvantula just run through a team and take out the majority of the opponents team.

 

[Byrn Dragonstone]

What are you supposed to do when it hopscotches in on the revenge or on something that can't hurt it? All bulky Water-types, all Grass-types, most walls save for Registeel and Brozong, Zapdos, most Raikou, things slower than 90 base Speed, etc. Are we to count on Staraptor to regulate a Kyurem metagame?

Which brings us back to the idea of beating fucking Staraptor. Good luck.

No I am not saying that Staraptor would be the Kyurem check of the metagame, but with new pokemon around I feel that it would not be as dominating as it was before. Chandelure and Darmanitan in particular put a severe hurt on Kyurem, and Victini now has access to V-Create (The previous metagame that Kyurem was in Victini only had it for a couple weeks). Honestly we have no clue how Kyurem would fare in a metagame with everything back around, because that metagame has never existed.

As for Staraptor we do have access to quite a few more physical walls (Brozong, Swampert, Hippodown if this was to happen), along with the tried and true Rhyperior.

We will not unban any of these things.

Why not? Seriously I was only asking if anyone else thought about trying it out, not permanently but for like a month or so to see what happens. I see no problem re-testing to make sure that everything we banned is truly broken.

Not a 2HKO most of the time due to Leftovers recovery.

Not a 2HKO most of the time due to Leftovers recovery. Shadow Ball is extremely rare becase of the other targets he needs to cover, and you will run out of Shadow Ball before he runs out of Recover.

Most Mismagius do not use Life Orb.

With rocks or spikes those are 2HKO's. Otherwise I see what you mean. And I admit that Nidoking doesn't run shadow ball as often, but it can with so many psychic types running around. Also Ground/Elec/Ice/Ghost hits like everything in the tier bar Snorlax, who doesn't mind anything Nidoking throws at it anyways.

I ran Life Orb when I played around with Mismagius so I just figured that would be the item of choice.

Aside from those discrepancies, I believe the meat of your post is

Ambipom (sans Taunt)
Bronzong
Dusclops
Empoleon
Flygon
Hippopotas
Milotic
Nidoqueen
Porygon2
Registeel
Rotom-H
Slowbro
Snorlax (non-CB)
Suicune
Swampert (non-CB)
Togekiss
Umbreon
Zapdos (Defensive)

16 Pokemon, which is exactly 1/3 of the tier, when it is not investing fully in defenses. If it went 252/252 HP Bold, you can remove the annotations from Swampert, Snorlax, and Flygon. With 252/252 Calm, you can remove the annotation from Zapdos and add Sub CM Raikou and Nidoking. He also sets up on Gligar, who is not UU at the moment, but is receiving a lot of usage right now and is expected to be UU next month.

Considering that one or more of these Pokemon are a staple to most UU teams, the fact that other decent RU and below Pokemon that might show up every now and then were not counted, and his ability to set up on his checks while locked into a favorable move (Heracross into anything but Megahorn, Krookodile into anything but Crunch), Deoxys is looking to set up on something every game.

So you are saying that people are unable to fit one of the other 2/3 of the tier into your team? Or were you just pointing out that Deoxys-D is actually able to do what it is supposed to on some of the pokemon in the tier? If the first it would be more of a matter of peoples team building skills. If the latter then it would mean that Deoxys-D can be useful, which is a given since it is in UU in the first place. If it wasn't able to set up on anything would anyone use it? I know I wouldn't.

And if Deoxys runs a Max defense set it loses out on speed, which is the argument that most people use to say it is broken. If it runs Max speed it is 2HKO'd by the things I listed and more, if not it is taunt bait for a lot more pokemon. Deoxys can only run one set. Also as you mentioned he can set up on checks locked into a move, just like say Kingdra could set up on a Flygon locked into Fire Punch, or Chandelure on a Snorlax locked into Return. That is exactly why they are checks are not counters. If you wanted hard counters I am sure I could come up with some for you.

You keep saying "hazards". Do you think registeel gets spikes? Because it doesn't. And spikes are what make deoxys-D so dangerous. What are you going to do with the free turns registeel may get? Fire off piss-weak iron heads? Sounds productive.
And why does taunt matter?! Have fun using registeel when qwilfish gets in on you and sets up three layers of spikes in your face. Or when venomoth gets in on your, puts you to sleep, and quiver passes to nidoking. If you think taunt's only purpose is in beating stall teams you have not played the current metagame (which is full of balanced spike-stack teams). Also, if you don't think recover makes a huge difference in a pokemon's ability to sustainably wall attacks....
Your posts are bad and you should feel bad.

Does Registeel not get SR anymore? I guess I missed the memo that said that wasn't a hazard. And as for the free turns it gets have you ever heard of Thunder Wave/Toxic and team support?

Who in the world is going to switch in a pokemon that sets-up and is slower then Deoxys? If that is the way that UU players play then there is no wonder that Deoxys is being brought up so much. Never said that recover doesn't make a difference in a pokemons stalling ability, but Deoxys can't Taunt, Spike, and Recover all in one turn. It either does one or the other. If it has to recover to prevent itself from being KO'd then it isn't putting up spikes. Same deal with taunt. If it does use spikes or taunt on something like BandLax it will then be KO'd.

And the fact that you are telling my posts are bad is funny, as I have actually given out FACTS that try and prove my point. Your argument has consisted of attacks against me, and just saying that I am wrong with nothing productive coming out of them.

No no we should totally unban staraptor because hippowodon checks it (the definition of "checks" is "gets 2hko'd by brave bird" right), and we should unban kyurem because staraptor can totally check it with its 85 / 50 defenses and we should unban drought because hippowodon "equals it out".

/Sarcasm. Have you played in a metagame with all of those threats around at the same time? No you haven't because there has never been a metagame like that.

 

[pokemonisfun]

To anyone who says Deoxys-D is not broken I can see why you would say that.

To anyone who says it cannot reliably set up hazards because it is too weak defensively, I suggest you start playing semi-competent UU games. I am 100% sure you cannot have either not played a decent UU game or you are using a crap team or you are using a team crappily if you have come to the conclusion Deoxys-D will get beat down by attacks to the point it cannot abuse hazards.

Theory, theory, theory this is all the support there is for the wrong belief that Deoxys-D cannot set up. Well no matter how beautiful a theory or plan is, one ought to occasionally look at the results. And that result is a metagame where Deoxys-D can get up shitloads of hazards. Not only that but your theory is flawed too when you look at the calcs. Nobody really uses LO Missy, CB Snorlax, Houndoom at all, Porygon-z at all or Shadow Ball Nidoking. These things just do not exist anywhere on the ladder to the point where they become really relevant.

That actually brings me to my second point, why Stealth Rocks should be banned. I know that no matter what arguments I bring it probably will not be banned, but I figure I can at least show a few more open minded people why it really should be banned.

In THEORY, Stealth Rock is an overpowered move. Thats what I think. Taking away sweepers that could actually see use in OU (Charizard) yet they are not even in UU because of one move. I would go as far as to say you ought to look at every single Rock weak Pokemon in RU and NU and see for yourself if more than a few of them would usable in at least UU. This is arguable, debatable, possibly right, possibly wrong, but likely too liberal for most people to consider.

What is not arguable or debatable is the sheer use of Stealth Rocks in PRACTICE. Think about it, when was the last time you had a UU battle with no Stealth Rocks? A UU team without Stealth Rocks? Probably gen3. Many many many people have said a team WITHOUT SR is a BAD team. Please tell me how this move is not too influential then.

I anticipate many of you may be thinking,"Well if everyone used Splash, then it certainly wouldn't be broken." First off I have to say fuck off. Usage is an indicator of how USEFUL, for lack of a better word, something is. If something is used a lot you better believe its pretty damn good. You will have to excuse me if I don't think the UU metagame will ever revolve around Splash, that I don't believe Splash will ever be a common move.

Stealth Rock shows its influence in other ways. If you will for a moment, please look at Blastoise an all around mediocre bulky water. Not as bulky as Slowbro, Milotic or Suicune. Also not as powerful with no decent recovery. So why use it? The answer any novice would tell you is because Rapid Spin and possibly Foresight. Otherwise undoubtedly Blastoise would be eclipsed by its fellow bulky waters and sent to the depths of NU or RU. A single move which gets rid of often just a single hazard, Stealth Rock, SKYROCKETS an otherwise shoddy poke into around top tiered UU.

There is a whole other host of evidence supporting Stealth Rocks ban, but since I doubt this will be taken seriously, it is easier to say this: Stealth Rocks has far far far too much influence on UU, more so than any other Pokemon.

 

[Byrn Dragonstone]

To anyone who says Deoxys-D is not broken I can see why you would say that.

To anyone who says it cannot reliably set up hazards because it is too weak defensively, I suggest you start playing semi-competent UU games. I am 100% sure you cannot have either not played a decent UU game or you are using a crap team or you are using a team crappily if you have come to the conclusion Deoxys-D will get beat down by attacks to the point it cannot abuse hazards.

Theory, theory, theory this is all the support there is for the wrong belief that Deoxys-D cannot set up. Well no matter how beautiful a theory or plan is, one ought to occasionally look at the results. And that result is a metagame where Deoxys-D can get up shitloads of hazards. Not only that but your theory is flawed too when you look at the calcs. Nobody really uses LO Missy, CB Snorlax, Houndoom at all, Porygon-z at all or Shadow Ball Nidoking. These things just do not exist anywhere on the ladder to the point where they become really relevant.

I have played lots of UU battles, against lots of UU players. Deoxys is good at setting up spikes, if you give it the chance. My strategy with it has always been to hit it hard and kill it quickly. Deoxys CANNOT set up spikes if it has to recover every turn. And just letting you know here are some usage stats:

Mismagius: Item | 10.3 | Life Orb

| 43 | Escavalier | 2567 | 5.327% | 2184 | 5.389% |
| 44 | Houndoom | 2536 | 5.263% | 2073 | 5.115% |

Snorlax: Item | 5.3 | Choice Band

Houndoom is used almost as much as Escavalier, one of the famed "Counters" to Deoxys. 1 out of every 10 Mismagius that you see will be carrying a Life Orb. BandLax is used, though it isn't used as much as it should be. I already admitted that Nidoking doesn't carry Shadow Ball as much, though it does carry it enough to warrant it showing up in its Moveset.

 

[complete legitimacy]

@hilarious: I'm sorry, but banning Stealth Rock is not an option at this point. It's not even because of the metagame itself, it's just because of the Pokemon that Game Freak has released. While Stealth Rock may have given some formerly viable Pokemon an extremely harsh nerf, it is by no means an overpowered move. In fact, its presence in nearly all metagames limits some otherwise broken Pokemon more than it limits the viable but non-broken ones.

In almost every tier, I can think of a few examples where Stealth Rock is the major thing holding some Pokemon back from being banned. Let's first take a look at OU. The first thing that comes to mind is Volcarona, with Stealth Rock and Terrakion being the only things holding it back from being Uber. If there was no Stealth Rock, the offensive versions would wreak havoc and most likely eventually be banned. A less obvious, but even more broken Pokemon without Stealth Rock is Dragonite. Without Stealth Rock, it is immune to all entry hazards, leaving Multiscale only broken by weather and attacking moves. It would undoubtedly be broken, and Stealth Rock is once again the major thing holding it back.

There are a couple of things right here in UU that are checked by Stealth Rock. Darmanitan practically kills itself whenever it wants to use Flare Blitz whenever Stealth Rock is up, and Victini is in a similar boat. By limiting both of these behemoths to 4 switch-ins with Stealth Rock up, it limits their possibly overpowering offensive potential, allowing the tier to hold them in check. Something else that prevents the VoltTurn strategy that we all know and hate from taking place in UU is that the best UU user of Volt Switch can only switch in so many times, due to its weakness to Stealth Rock.

However, I believe the best example lies in the RU tier, with Moltres. It only has two solid counters in the metagame. One of them is Pursuit weak, and the other has no reliable recovery. Some say the only thing holding it back from BL2 or even UU is Stealth Rock. With the abundance of priority in RU, a 50% Moltres isn't that hard to kill. However, due to its decent bulk, it can take even powerful Aqua Jets when at full health. This is the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Pokemon that are limited by Stealth Rock.

So Charizard isn't as viable as you'd hope. That's too bad, since there's a lot better Pokemon that would approach broken levels if Stealth Rock went away. While I realize that UU isn't the metagame that needs it most, that doesn't mean that it's the right decision to make it BL. In fact, Stealth Rock already received a nerf this gen in-game, when it's now more important then ever. The metagame is not nearly as centralized around Stealth Rock as it is around Spikes even. But that's a whole other conversation.

 

[SJCrew]

/Sarcasm. Have you played in a metagame with all of those threats around at the same time? No you haven't because there has never been a metagame like that.

We banned those Pokemon because we didn't want a metagame like that. Your reasoning as to how they balanced each other out was bad. I used Hippopotas to cancel out Drought in Round 1, but it was still broken. Hippowdon is 2HKOed by Brave Bird. Nothing beats Kyurem. Please move on, this line of discussion is entirely unproductive.

So you are saying that people are unable to fit one of the other 2/3 of the tier into your team? Or were you just pointing out that Deoxys-D is actually able to do what it is supposed to on some of the pokemon in the tier? If the first it would be more of a matter of peoples team building skills. If the latter then it would mean that Deoxys-D can be useful, which is a given since it is in UU in the first place. If it wasn't able to set up on anything would anyone use it? I know I wouldn't.

I am saying that he can find setup opportunities against more than just that 1/3, and on top of that, the Pokemon that threaten him have to switch in as he's setting up hazards. This is is almost always going to be an advantageous position for Deoxys-D, provided you can at least check what the opponent has in store for you.

Speaking of 'more than that 1/3', there's a bit of a gray area that's hard to theorymon, but actually comes up quite a lot in games. Some Pokemon aren't on the list because he doesn't explicitly wall them, but if he has the initiative, he can win. For example, Kingdra. Normally, you don't want to switch Deoxys-D in on that for fear of him being at +1; however, when Deoxys has the momentum, Kingdra can't do anything to break him. The same applies to things like Scarf Victini and CB Crobat. If you look at things realistically, it's not about people not carrying enough to break Deoxys-D (though we could be looking at a case of that as well), it's just that it is next to impossible to avoid carrying Pokemon that are a liability against him, since they're all pretty good Pokemon otherwise.

And if Deoxys runs a Max defense set it loses out on speed, which is the argument that most people use to say it is broken. If it runs Max speed it is 2HKO'd by the things I listed and more, if not it is taunt bait for a lot more pokemon. Deoxys can only run one set. Also as you mentioned he can set up on checks locked into a move, just like say Kingdra could set up on a Flygon locked into Fire Punch, or Chandelure on a Snorlax locked into Return. That is exactly why they are checks are not counters. If you wanted hard counters I am sure I could come up with some for you.

For both examples, the checks can come right back in after setup and KO. We're looking at something different here: a dangerous Spikes machine that can steal momentum easily and wall much of the tier.

When you face against a Deoxys, he is not running 'one set', he is running whatever the opponent wants to run. If you face me, you might be seeing a more standard version of Deoxys, but if you're up against Flare, he could be using status attacks instead, which cripples even his checks. All of these options are viable and should be taken into consideration when fighting him. "Do I want my Weavile to Swords Dance up against this Deoxys and risk being Thunder Waved? Or do I wait until he's at 50% so I can revenge him for sure?" Having been nailed by Thunder Wave plenty of times, I'll wait for the sweetspot, thank you.

Deoxys-D really doesn't have as many limitations as you're pointing out. He's brainlessly easy to use and most people can spot a setup opportunity from a mile away, before the match has even started. If you have a wall, a Choiced move that cannot 2HKO Deoxys, or anything else on that list, you have setup bait for Deoxys.

(Note: I forgot to include Arcanine)

 

[alexwolf]

@ complete legitimacy and everyone else which makes this kind of argument:

X keeps in check and/or prevents Z and Y from being broken is not an argument as to why X shouldn't be banned.
If X is broken the it gets banned no matter what it keeps in check, because it is broken.

If we could bring Giratina-O in OU then we wouldn't have to ban Excadrill and Blaziken. But we didn't bring those pokes down because they were broken.

Similarly Excadrill was a check or a counter to a fuckton of things (namely every frail sweeper) but it got banned, because it was broken.

I am not arguing whether SR is broken or not, just saying that the statement ''SR keeps in check some threats so it shouldn't be banned'' is wrong and shouldn't be used to prove why SR should stay.

 

[Byrn Dragonstone]

We banned those Pokemon because we didn't want a metagame like that. Your reasoning as to how they balanced each other out was bad. I used Hippopotas to cancel out Drought in Round 1, but it was still broken. Hippowdon is 2HKOed by Brave Bird. Nothing beats Kyurem. Please move on, this line of discussion is entirely unproductive.

Fair enough. I was just looking at it and was wondering what a tier with all the current mons (Stuff that dropped down(Darmanitan, Chandelure, Swampert, Brozong)) would be like. Personally I don't think it would be ridiculously broken, but if your opinion is different I can understand. Again I think it would be interesting to try a test period with all of them and see what happens.

I am saying that he can find setup opportunities against more than just that 1/3, and on top of that, the Pokemon that threaten him have to switch in as he's setting up hazards. This is is almost always going to be an advantageous position for Deoxys-D, provided you can at least check what the opponent has in store for you.

Speaking of 'more than that 1/3', there's a bit of a gray area that's hard to theorymon, but actually comes up quite a lot in games. Some Pokemon aren't on the list because he doesn't explicitly wall them, but if he has the initiative, he can win. For example, Kingdra. Normally, you don't want to switch Deoxys-D in on that for fear of him being at +1; however, when Deoxys has the momentum, Kingdra can't do anything to break him. The same applies to things like Scarf Victini and CB Crobat. If you look at things realistically, it's not about people not carrying enough to break Deoxys-D (though we could be looking at a case of that as well), it's just that it is next to impossible to avoid carrying Pokemon that are a liability against him, since they're all pretty good Pokemon otherwise.

Again I am not saying that Deoxys isn't good, or even great at what it does, just that it isn't the end all hazard layer that everyone is making it out to be. It can set up on a good chunk of the metagame, but in reverse it also has issues setting up on the other chunk of the metagame. Empoleon or Dusclops can be set up on for instance, but if it predicts wrong and comes into a Toxic or Will-O-Wisp it will be hurting.

For both examples, the checks can come right back in after setup and KO. We're looking at something different here: a dangerous Spikes machine that can steal momentum easily and wall much of the tier.

When you face against a Deoxys, he is not running 'one set', he is running whatever the opponent wants to run. If you face me, you might be seeing a more standard version of Deoxys, but if you're up against Flare, he could be using status attacks instead, which cripples even his checks. All of these options are viable and should be taken into consideration when fighting him. "Do I want my Weavile to Swords Dance up against this Deoxys and risk being Thunder Waved? Or do I wait until he's at 50% so I can revenge him for sure?" Having been nailed by Thunder Wave plenty of times, I'll wait for the sweetspot, thank you.

Deoxys-D really doesn't have as many limitations as you're pointing out. He's brainlessly easy to use and most people can spot a setup opportunity from a mile away, before the match has even started. If you have a wall, a Choiced move that cannot 2HKO Deoxys, or anything else on that list, you have setup bait for Deoxys.

(Note: I forgot to include Arcanine)

One issue that I had with Deoxys was that everyone would always just switch straight to a spinner. At this point you either switch to a spin blocker, or lose any hazards you just set up. Fine so you switch to a Spin Blocker, lets say Dusclops, but you opponent predicts and toxics you. Dusclops is now screwed. So you taunt with Deoxys before you switch, but they just rapid spin. Now your hazards are gone. Either way it comes down to who is the better player and predicts right. (Actually Rapid Spin would be the best choice here as taunt does not prevent it and if they do switch right away you can outspeed and toxic anyways, but that is besides the point)

On an off note I did happen to ladder up to #7/8 on the ladder once with a team consisting only of Choice Band/Specs pokemon. That was rather fun.

 

[/B/utterfree]

Alright, so we can confirm Deoxys-D as Suspect then? More agreements seem to come and go that Deo-D is no longer welcome in the UU metagame.

I don't necessarily agree, but I shall not hinder the reconfiguration of a metagame that once did not have Deo-D in it to begin with.

 

[jamashawalker]

The Stealth rock arguement shouldnt even be brought up...Not only is it unreasonable to think of banning the move, but also its a programming issue that cant be dealt with. If they couldnt do it for spikes, then it sure cant be done for Stealth Rock

 

[pokemonisfun]

The Stealth rock arguement shouldnt even be brought up...Not only is it unreasonable to think of banning the move, but also its a programming issue that cant be dealt with. If they couldnt do it for spikes, then it sure cant be done for Stealth Rock

If you read my posts on SR then you will realize you are acting like one of the many people who think it cannot be banned because its been around so long you haven't even noticed it makes UU, and probably other tiers I haven't played, demented. At least say why its unreasonable to even think of banning the move (granted I know nothing about programming). And I haven't seen any attempts to ban any hazards but I haven't been looking too hard. Frankly SR is more influential than Spikes can ever be imo which is why i am talking about it. The only real argument I have heard that supports SR (other than I couldn't possibly imagine/adapt to a Rockless metagame D:) is that SR itself is keeping stuff from being broken (read: Darmantian).

 

[jamashawalker]

That actually brings me to my second point, why Stealth Rocks should be banned. I know that no matter what arguments I bring it probably will not be banned, but I figure I can at least show a few more open minded people why it really should be banned.

In THEORY, Stealth Rock is an overpowered move. Thats what I think. Taking away sweepers that could actually see use in OU (Charizard) yet they are not even in UU because of one move. I would go as far as to say you ought to look at every single Rock weak Pokemon in RU and NU and see for yourself if more than a few of them would usable in at least UU. This is arguable, debatable, possibly right, possibly wrong, but likely too liberal for most people to consider.

What is not arguable or debatable is the sheer use of Stealth Rocks in PRACTICE. Think about it, when was the last time you had a UU battle with no Stealth Rocks? A UU team without Stealth Rocks? Probably gen3. Many many many people have said a team WITHOUT SR is a BAD team. Please tell me how this move is not too influential then.

I anticipate many of you may be thinking,"Well if everyone used Splash, then it certainly wouldn't be broken." First off I have to say fuck off. Usage is an indicator of how USEFUL, for lack of a better word, something is. If something is used a lot you better believe its pretty damn good. You will have to excuse me if I don't think the UU metagame will ever revolve around Splash, that I don't believe Splash will ever be a common move.

Stealth Rock shows its influence in other ways. If you will for a moment, please look at Blastoise an all around mediocre bulky water. Not as bulky as Slowbro, Milotic or Suicune. Also not as powerful with no decent recovery. So why use it? The answer any novice would tell you is because Rapid Spin and possibly Foresight. Otherwise undoubtedly Blastoise would be eclipsed by its fellow bulky waters and sent to the depths of NU or RU. A single move which gets rid of often just a single hazard, Stealth Rock, SKYROCKETS an otherwise shoddy poke into around top tiered UU.

There is a whole other host of evidence supporting Stealth Rocks ban, but since I doubt this will be taken seriously, it is easier to say this: Stealth Rocks has far far far too much influence on UU, more so than any other Pokemon.

Being influential and being overpowered are TWO different things. I can tell you from experience and watching other people that you DO NOT need Stealth Rock to win. Its a good advantage but it is not neccessary.
Stealth rock is a good support move for all tiers, not just UU.

And that whole blastoise usage is completely false. If Stealth Rock was the only hazard move rapid spinners probably wouldnt be seeing that high of a usage, its the combination of SR+Spikes and/or Tspikes. If SR was really the only hazard move, then I wouldnt even think twice about adding a rapid spinner unless I had a poke on my team that was 4x weak to SR. Deoxys-D is the best spiker because it can set up both SR + Spikes(Combined with many many other reasons)

I agree that its influential. When team building you always have to see if your team is SR weak or not. But again it is not the same as being overpowering



And if you read THIS post at the very top, you would see that it is very wrong to argue against SR just so a few pokemon can see some play.

About only 15 pokemon are 4x weak to Stealth Rock. Of those 15 only 8 are competatively viable; Moltres, Charizard, Volcarona, Articuno, Yanmega, Ho-oh, Scyther, Ninjask. And 3 of them are already seeing high usage in their respective tiers. So we should really think about banning the best support move so that only 8 pokemon can played without the stigma of losing half of their life? If let's say over 50% or some high number of pokemon lost half their life because of Stealth Rock, then this move wouldve been banned a long time ago. QUOTE]

Again all this is really pointless because if there was a real problem with SR then it wouldve been brought long into Gen IV. and programming issues. Meaning they cant program the move Stealth Rock out of the system in other tiers as well(Something along those lines)

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

How about this as an argument against banning Stealth Rock.

It can't be programmed into the simulator. The same thing happened with Spikes, move bans cannot be implemented.

Aside from the whole, "moves aren't broken (yet)" business the above should be case closed against a ban, really.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Any idea how Double Team or Horn Drill was banned then? Because there might as well be a SR Clause for UU.

And I am sure you guys could squish your brains and think of something.

Why try to take the easy way out of a discussion that could have some meaning?

edit: I did read the post at the top actually but i feel that if you actually read it, it would help prove my point. First off you will notice that most of those pokes are in the lower tiers, except for Ho-Oh which is pretty uber and Volc which gets quiver dance and sunlight and amazing stats. My point was that you should ban a move because it makes lots of pokes unusable, and those are just some of the now unusable pokes.

 

[Brood_Star]

He's saying you cannot ban SR from one tier only. Those two clauses were banned universally from all tiers.

Nor are people taking the easy way out, since SR is not broken. You seem to be taking the easy way out of the discussion by just mentioning how SR keeps some threats in check as if it's something to be ignored.

 

[jamashawalker]

edit: I did read the post at the top actually but i feel that if you actually read it, it would help prove my point. First off you will notice that most of those pokes are in the lower tiers, except for Ho-Oh which is pretty uber and Volc which gets quiver dance and sunlight and amazing stats. My point was that you should ban a move because it makes lots of pokes unusable, and those are just some of the now unusable pokes.

haha that just enpowers my post even more. Ok Ill humor you with a list of all the pokes that are 4x SR weak

Articuno-Can see more usage without SR, possibly
Delibird- HA
Charizard- Yes
Moltres-Yes
Ho-oh- already uber
Volcarona- already OU and sees high usage
Beautifly- HA
Butterfree- HA
Ledian- HA
Masquerin-better than some of its other Bug/flying brethren, but still not gonna see much usage
Mothim-HA
Ninjask-It pretty much does its job with or w/o SR
Scyther- Yes it will have higher usage
Vespiquen- not really cause her stats still leave alot desired
Yanmega- Already sees high usage

Pretty much the "lower" tiers dont have much going for the pokes 4x SR weak. Even without SR they still cant perform well, they are unusable for a reason far beyond just being SR weak.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Actually Butterfree is pretty awesome in RU, with Quiver Dance, and either a (near) perfect accuracy Sleep Powder or a unresisted Bug Buxx. Alongside Substitute its pretty deadly.

 

[Snunch]

Hey just a friendly update from the senate, we will neither be unbanning any pokemon nor banning stealth rock. The former will not happen at a foreseeable point in the future, the latter will never happen.

 

[pokemonisfun]

You know, I have to apologize for disrupting this thread because I think it should primarily about things we can agree on to some extent. I also apologize if you thought I was being rude, I just want to express my opinion.

And yet I cannot fathom why all of you are beating down my arguments with flawed logic. Let me respond to all your arguments one more time and I ask you to please consider what i have to say, despite me having a low post count and the idea of Stealth Rock banned is downright radical for some of you.

My ideas on Blastoise were not completely false as you claim although I can see why you disagree with it. I said that without Rapid Spin, Blastoise would be nearly useless in UU. This is 100% true. I went on to say a main use of using a spinner on your team (and therefore why Blastoise is nearly top tier UU) is because it it gets rid of Rocks. This is also 100% true. However this is where the disagreement begins I believe, how although spinning away Rocks is nice, another arguably bigger purpose is to spin away Spikes. Well I think SR is the biggest concern because most Pokemon can function with Spikes on the field as long as the layers are not maxed out. With just one turn of set up of Rocks however, many Pokemon cannot function so reliably (say a defensive Arcanine not being able to properly wall Darmantian). Thats why I think Rapid Spin Blastoise is UU-because it can get rid of hazards, primarily Rocks. It should follow then that if a poke can skyrocket a tier or two just because the presence of one move, that one move ought to be looked at.

Stealth Rock cripples many many many Pokemon, lets focus on the UU ones here. Yes I think the best support move should be banned if it makes 8 pokes unusable, but it makes even more than those 8. Anything at all weak to Stealth Rock becomes a possible no no to use. Mandibuzz looks great right? Actually no because Rocks strip it of its health it really cannot wall stuff. Perhaps you want to abuse some Swellow? Nope because Stealth Rock means switching in is impossible and its bulk is non-existent. Even if you disagree with those two examples you would have to be a fool to say SR only cripples pokes who are 4x weak to it.

Programming-wise you might use pokemon showdown if that would work or something? If not you could even do an honors basis or just a tourny without SR to just test.

I am not taking the easy way out, you have no idea how much it pains me to respond to this. Lets face the facts. You are all way to used to seeing SR, which means even if it was broken, you might just choose to ignore it and stick with the old. Honestly, people still occasionally dedicate a whole team slot just to get this move out in suicide leads. People are forced to use spinners if they want to use a 4x SR weak poke effectively. People are forced to use SR on their team because in a metagame with SR, you better bet SR is on any half decent team. This is too much SR for me.

 

[/B/utterfree]

Pokes that have SR weaknesses do fine. If SR were really as bad as you make it out to be, then Yanmega would have never made it out of RU, let alone NU. Volcarona is still a great Pokemon whose offensive STABs are excellent, too, and it can't seem to get out of OU even with the presence of Rocks lingering over it.

 

[reachzero]

The status of Stealth Rock is not an issue unique to the UU metagame, and thus has little place in the discussion of this thread. Please keep the subject of our posts focused on factors directly related to the UU metagame. Further posts regarding the status of Stealth Rock risk censure from the moderating staff.

In other news, Chandelure is really, really powerful. Specs Chandelure is pretty much death to all the bulky Waters of note, honestly. Snorlax and Porygon2 get it more or less in control, but they are among the Pokemon that are easiest to wear down with Spikes, in my experience. The lucky thing is that most Chandelure users aren't using Specs, allowing Blastoise, etc. to not be 2HKOed....

 

[SGV]

imo we should ban scald because it makes water types able to beat electric types which shouldn't be happening.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Deoxys-D is now officially a suspect and the vote will be held soon.

I encourage the senate members to schedule a public IRC discussion on #genvuu within the next few days. The vote will be held after that.

 

[Godsend]

Deoxys-D is now officially a suspect and the vote will be held soon.

I encourage the senate members to schedule a public IRC discussion on #genvuu within the next few days. The vote will be held after that.

Bye Deoxys, I'll miss you. I'm the guy that never thinks anything is "broken" and that holds true with Deoxys. I mean, it's a pain in the ass, but so are a lot of things, like Sharpedo, Raikou etc. That being said, this is a time where I can see the case being made that it is broken and there are certain points that I agree with. Also, it'll be good to see a support Pokemon that isn't a weather starter get banned, as opposed to only intense offensive Pokes.

 

[spuds4ever]

Pure speculating here. I think deo will be banned, at least temporarily. This will be quite an interesting change in the meta-game. I think rapid spinners will see a fall in usage and all those offensive teams can replace that slot for some crazy choice scarf user, most likely a fire type or heracross.

Alternatively, if deo is not banned, I think it will also benefit the metagame. People will stop sitting on the edge of their seats waiting for his ban and we might actually get some more imaginative counters for him.