You're both wrong. Will-o has a 15% chance to miss. :P
WOW has 85% accuracy and zen headbutt 2HKOs with a one in 5 flinch chance, so including the chance to miss from zen headbutt, he has a considerably high chance to beam rotom-w after rocks and/or chip damage.10% miss chance on WoW
Also Zen Headbutt misses 10% of the time.
Are we really talking about accuracy?
Then I can argue that focus blast is a great coverage move with the side effect of actually hitting it's target.
The fact is that the Pokemon got a tool to Pierce trough another or cripple it for the rest of the match, I'll give you that rotom is a check if rocks are up but don't bring accuracy as an argument.
Like I said he has to be on full HP to be a check. Otherwise you should stick to other options. Isn't physichal defensive scizor a great answer with access to a slow uturn and defog? Assuming megagross lacks fire punch?WOW has 85% accuracy and zen headbutt 2HKOs with a one in 5 flinch chance, so including the chance to miss from zen headbutt, he has a considerably high chance to beam rotom-w after rocks and/or chip damage.
HmIn what world does, 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 212-250 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, translate to taking it 1v1? That includes damn near any relevant Steel Type outside of the 2 Steel/Psychic mons and Klefki who still take a decent chunk of damage from Hammer Arm and Meteor Mash respectively.
It cant learn fire punch so yeah its a solid answer, though it cant do much at all besides like knock off for not that much damage or SD in its face i guessLike I said he has to be on full HP to be a check. Otherwise you should stick to other options. Isn't physichal defensive scizor a great answer with access to a slow uturn and defog? Assuming megagross lacks fire punch?
Yep, I never considered using fire punch since HA, does everything better. It's good to know it doesn't have that move.It cant learn fire punch so yeah its a solid answer, though it cant do much at all besides like knock off for not that much damage or SD in its face i guess
Yep but the main problem of this is that's it's usage it's kinda low, and running HP fire means that you hypothetically give up IP, HA, or GK as Metagross needs to preserve it's stats. I personally enjoy pursuit on Metagross so I'm not sure about how reliant HP fire could be on an actual build.Interestingly enough, HP Fire does get a guaranteed 2hKO after SR on M-Scizor.
You're giving up coverage that's extremely important to MegaGross for HP Fire, it's not worth it since it's weak as piss and isn't even boosted by TC. Grass Knot is the only special move you should be running on itInterestingly enough, HP Fire does get a guaranteed 2hKO after SR on M-Scizor.
First I want to lead by saying, I'm sorry, that came off a lot more rude than I intended. ;~;Hm
guess I just got lucky and only faced earthquakers. Hammer arm should be the superior move though, as it beats most weakened steels. Of course you'd better Ko whatever you were hitting, because Hammer Arm will force you out when they switch next turn.
I suppose my question is: Does Metagross have a coverage move for everything that should wall it?
My experience with Mega beedril is a shaddy one. OU is plagued by stuff he hates and have few redeeming factors, honestly it is quite punishing to use in my opinion. But I managed to have a small amount of success when using him among speedy chessnaugth and tentacruel with Choice specs sylveon on the Greninja less meta, with the aide of defog scizor and scarf Landorus. It was a train wreck half of the time.Ok, now let me make an open question
The first time I used mega beedrill, I was really hyped and stuff, so I automatically assumed that it was great, however, I tried to use it again recently and I noticed that it struggles a lot in the OU metagame that we are right now, so, I ask you, besides the obvious (magnezone, spinner/defogger and a check to land-t), how do you guys think mega beedrill can be used at the moment?
With 40 Defense, priority murders it. So you'll need a way to remove Talonflame, Dragonite, Pinsir (SR helps against all three), Scizor, Azumarill, Crawdaunt, etc. None of those Pokemon particularly like Rotom-W, and Talonflame always wins 1-on-1 against Scizor and Pinsir. So perhaps you could try adding those Pokemon to your team to support Beedrill. Gothitelle's ability to trap can't hurt either.Ok, now let me make an open question
The first time I used mega beedrill, I was really hyped and stuff, so I automatically assumed that it was great, however, I tried to use it again recently and I noticed that it struggles a lot in the OU metagame that we are right now, so, I ask you, besides the obvious (magnezone, spinner/defogger and a check to land-t), how do you guys think mega beedrill can be used at the moment?
Skarmory is certainly a blanket check to the physical metagame (which is why it is featured alongside chansey on nearly every stall team). As such, it is a completely valid and very common counter for defensive teams, not to mention that Metagross has virtually no impact on its already high usage. I was obviously referring to defensive teams, so I don't really get your assumption that I was doing otherwise. Plus, you are greatly underselling Skarmory as a pokemon. Between whirlwind for boosting sweepers, counter for generic physical mons, and spikes/defog to take advantage of defensive mons like ferrothorn, it certainly isn't "one of the easiest pokemon to take advantage of." Stating that Skarm is a counter, and then dismissing it as if it is the worst mon in the tier is not proving much of anything, as it is still showing up on the great majority of defensive and even many balanced teams regardless.Jukain said:Skarmory is not a 'blanket check'; it is a specialized, passive defensive Pokemon that is almost solely used on stall teams for that reason. It is one of the easiest Pokemon in the OU tier to take advantage of and I really don't think that requires much in the way of explanation. It is a Mega Metagross counter, but you're overselling it as a Pokemon in the tier.
Slowbro is BARELY 2hkod by grass knot. Add just a small amount of special defense (which also allows it to check things like keldeo a bit better, in case you were planning to argue that moving 40 EVs makes Metagross too centralizing), and the threat of a 2hko diminishes quite a bit. Your argument is also flawed in that you are ignoring the practicality of the situation. For slowbro to be 2hkod, Metagross would have to predict the switch and use grass knot, a move that would do close to nothing against any other mon, giving them a free switch to beat/force out metagross. You could argue that the switch to slowbro would be obvious, but that is usually completely untrue given how Metagross' checks and counters are already very prevalent in the metagame. Rather than slowbro, a lando-t switch could happen, or perhaps to bisharp or rotom or (insert counter/check/soft check). Arguing perfect prediction, ESPECIALLY against a mon with regenerator, is most certainly not a proper justification for a mon's prowess. Making a more realistic assumption that slowbro switches in on another move, it now has a free turn to launch a scald/twave/fireblast, none of which the opposing offensive team wants to deal with.Slowbro can't 'tank any attack'; it's 2HKOed by Grass Knot and the obvious Slowbro switch makes it so easy to go for, so you can force the opponent to make risky plays.
Between poison heal, roost/protect, and teammates, Gliscor most certainly has plenty of longevity. O_o It is one of the most annoying pokemon to take down in the tier for just about any playstyle.I talked about Gliscor earlier (an okay counter though not long-term)
Again, perfect prediction =/= realistic. It's not as if ferro is weak to zen headbutt/meteor mash, the two moves that metagross would typically be comfortable spamming. Predicting the ferro switch (in a team that certainly has other checks such as lando-t, slowbro, etc.) is much easier said then done, especially with a move like hammer arm that is relatively weak and will leave metagross vulnerable due to the speed drop. Ferro is free to twave/leech seed.Ferrothorn is 2HKOed Hammer Arm, which is on almost every Mega Metagross used by a decent-good player so it's almost irrelevant to consider non-Hammer Arm variants.
Wearing metagross down 10% is much easier to do than getting lando down 50%. In fact, a u-turn from that very same lando can prevent metagross from being able to tank the eq. Earthquake is admittedly easy to take advantage of, but clearly it isn't all that much of a detriment given that scarf lando is one of the most, if not the most, common mons in the current meta. Arguing that an uninvested landorus has difficulty tanking metagross' strongest attack is quite silly in itself. Keldeo doesn't like switching into earthquakes. Who would have thought?-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 154-183 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 231-273 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (with Clear Body)
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's not having a wonderful time; it doesn't even beat full health Mega Metagross if it switches in.
This is only true if Mega Metagross has Mega Evolved first and it's still worn out very quickly.
Fair enough, but by midgame, sacking a mon isn't the worst thing you could do. Getting that chip damage off (which is much easier to do given its lower speed) makes metagross much easier to handle later by effectively compromising the bulk that plays a part in making metagross such a great mon.What? Mega Metagross matches up well against so many common Pokemon, including Latis, Mega Lopunny, Mega Altaria, Azumarill, Clefable, Keldeo, etc. Mega Metagross finds it so easy to Mega Evolve against offense and it's not like its normal form has no bulk; 80/130/90 is still pretty bulky.
Given the very large amount of common checks/counters, not having anything to switch into metagross is either a huge teambuilding flaw or a result of getting completely outplayed.This isn't untrue, but this doesn't help when you need something to switch into Mega Metagross and you simply don't have anything.
Let me rephrase that for you.Wisp from Talonflame is a threat, granted, but Flare Blitz does not KO. Let that sink in for a moment; a STAB Flare Blitz does not OHKO a Pokemon that is weak to it and has 0 defensive investment.
Did much less than I thought. Sorry for the claim! :) Twave is fun tho. It's also worth noting that metagross does not 1hko without rocks/chip damage.252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 172-203 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Depends on what you define as major damage, but 60% off its HP and a dead Thundurus or healthy Metagross and a dead Thundurus are both winning situations for Mega Metagross.
This is not unique to metagross, though. It is a flaw that comes along with using bisharp to begin with. The issue of offensive mon paired with keldeo is super common, and going against metagross in particular doesn't make bisharp any less viable. Metagross can switch, but it's only fair to mention that it needs to be wary of pursuit. This is a 2-way street.Sure, it can revenge kill Mega Metagross, that's true. But then they can switch and you lose all momentum, and you have to take a significant risk if you want to predict the switch. Keldeo is a common partner for Mega Metagross, so chances are momentum is about to get stolen right out of your hands, just on the off-chance that Metagross will stay in. And even then:
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You even have to weaken Mega Metagross for this to kill.
As shown before, offense has the means to deal with metagross, whether it be through hard checks or preserving frail typical pokes. In the case of scizor, a more defensive sd setup is just as, if not more, common on balanced teams which counters metagross perfectly well. In the case of offensive scizor, this once again requires metagross to predict and hammer arm (given the likelihood that the team will also feature lando, thundy, talon, etc., hammer arm is rarely the most reliable move to spam). Even if the hammer arm connects, scizor is free to switch, and the offensive team can proceed to play around metagross and take advantage of the reduced speed. Metagross is more difficult to play around than the common offensive poke, but it is still similar in that offensive teams must partly rely on playing around it... it is simply the nature of offense. Playing reactively isn't exactly ideal. Offensive scizor isn't the best answer regardless due to it only really being able to chip away with knock off.The first one is true; Mega Manectric is one of the best offensive Mega Metagross checks because it outspeeds, has Intimidate, and can OHKO with Overheat or gain momentum with Volt Switch because the Metagross user will most likely switch. The second one, however, is only true for bulkier versions of Mega Scizor. Hammer Arm typically 2HKOes the standard offensive SD, which is usually what you want to run on offense because it is a significantly more dangerous and fast-paced sweeper than defensive variants, after SR damage, which rely on long-term weakening of counters to sweep and are more suited to teams erring toward balance.
Fair enough, though diancie can do quite a bit with an earth power (about 86%) in the event of a speed tie/diancie is already evolved, though metagross definitely wins in the opposite scenario. Gallade works against weakened gross, but it is defintely at a disadvantage given that metagross has an inherently higher damage output against gallade.See, this might be more relevant if the other 110 Megas (Diancie and Gallade) had a good matchup against Mega Metagross, but they don't. Mega Metagross obviously OHKOes Mega Diancie, and it does 80-94.5 to Mega Gallade while Gallade's Close Combat only does about 60%.
Which is why I noted that it was completely anecdotal and irrelevant... this is purely a strawman argument. While it should by no means function as a significant part of an argument, noting that experience at the very least provides a background for my opposition, espeically in regard to believing that gross is less scary in practice. Given that it was a tiny sidenote, I don't see the issue.'I have never had an issue with Metagross' sounds an awful lot like 'I have never had an issue with Greninja', which is completely anecdotal and irrelevant.
Now you are twisting my intentions. It is obvious that I am not dismissing metagross as a non-threat. I am simply arguing that it is similar to other top-tier mons as a threat.What's more is that there is no way that's true unless you've advanced in ways that are eluding everyone else, because Mega Metagross even puts insane pressure on teams that are prepared for it.
What you literally just said:Take an anti-Metagross core for offense in Scarf Lando-T + Manectric; on paper, you've got Mega Metagross covered reasonably well, but in practice you're still getting pressured by Mega Metagross.
I don't understand. You completely dismiss my anecdotal claim, and then you proceed to make your own, completely lacking in detail or explanation other then "metagross is better than me even tho my team counter metagross." This is especially problematic because it was the basis of this entire section of argument...As an example of an extreme, one of my favorite teams to use at the moment, a Mega Slowbro balanced team (which I won't reveal here), is built in such a manner that Mega Metagross gets zero opportunities to switch in and has few opportunities to do much of anything despite nothing being a real 'counter'. Even with this team, Mega Metagross still manages to put on some pressure because it's that much of an offensive and defensive behemoth.
I would claim that the differences between metagross and other top-tier threats as far as having checks and counters are negligible, and in some cases nonexistent. What exactly is switching into specs/life orb keldeo on an offensive team? Latis are typically the main answer, and those are quickly dealth with by an icy wind. Sure, you can play around keldeo by switching your talonflame in on a predicted secret sword, but the same holds true for handling metagross.Pokemon like Keldeo, Gardevoir, and Latis, heck even Sableye, have much more to work with in the way of actual counters and a variety of checks. Mega Metagross puts an insane amount of stress on teambuilding because one answer just isn't enough;
This is a complete understatement. As shown above, and as confirmed by you in regard to a number of the previously mentioned checks, Metagross has very few checks/counters that wouldn't already be on a team to begin with. Perhaps it cinches the decision between adding a landorus-t or an excadrill, but that is true about nearly every top-tier mon. If keldeo wasn't around to launch powerful water/fighting attacks, it wouldn't be neccesary to carry a lati on every team. Without clefable, you wouldn't need a heatran/bisharp/other steel. Without bisharp, keldeo wouldn't be such a neccesity.Sure, you might carry certain of those Pokemon anyways, but you need to prepare for it in multiple different ways, which is a major limiting factor.
This is like saying that Azumarill is a counter to Keldeo (it's not) as long as it avoids a Scald burn. The meaning of hax in this definition is meant to cover something like a crit or 10% Thunderbolt para, not to ignore reasonably high probabilities. Rotom-W is a reasonably okay situational check, and the reason it's not a counter has nothing to do with the fact that it can be flinched by Zen Headbutt but more the fact that it's 2HKOed by Zen Headbutt after Stealth Rock damage. A lot of this has to do with the fact that a Zen Headbutt flinch is more of a last-ditch crutch and a bad play for the Metagross user considering the enormous risk involved and also that the chance in this particular scenario is far from in Metagross's favor. But, factoring something like the 20% chance Meteor Mash has to raise Attack is non-negligible in the long run and unwise to disregard if you want to consider something a consistent, long-term switch-in (aka a counter). Just though I'd clarify because this isn't being interpreted correctly.Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
Metagross actually can't learn Fire Punch for whatever reason. So on that note, Mega Scizor can deal with it relatively reliably.The problem with Metagross is Hammer Arm. Its Steel/Psychic STAB's are very easy to switch in to, but a Tough Claws boosted Hammer Arm is 133 Base Power, effectively giving Metagross a 'pseudo-STAB.' Suddenly, Fighting/Psychic/Steel hits the majority of the metagame really hard.
I also want to mention that Scizor cannot be classed as a counter, because Metagross can learn Fire Punch. Of course, you're giving up coverage but the last moveslot is open to whatever you want (although grass knot is probably the best option).
It cant get fire punch. I just said this, either way its not a perfect counter because hammer arm still does a lot to non bulky scizor and all it can do back is SD and do some pretty meh damage with knock offThe problem with Metagross is Hammer Arm. Its Steel/Psychic STAB's are very easy to switch in to, but a Tough Claws boosted Hammer Arm is 133 Base Power, effectively giving Metagross a 'pseudo-STAB.' Suddenly, Fighting/Psychic/Steel hits the majority of the metagame really hard.
I also want to mention that Scizor cannot be classed as a counter, because Metagross can learn Fire Punch. Of course, you're giving up coverage but the last moveslot is open to whatever you want (although grass knot is probably the best option).
It doesn't get pseudo stab on Hammer Arm. Without tough claws, Metagross would be entirely underwhelming without tough claws... That effectively gives it the pseudo life orb boost that it needs to be a competitive mega. Hammer arm is just like any other mon's coverage move, because its stabs are still relatively 1.5* more powerfulThe problem with Metagross is Hammer Arm. Its Steel/Psychic STAB's are very easy to switch in to, but a Tough Claws boosted Hammer Arm is 133 Base Power, effectively giving Metagross a 'pseudo-STAB.' Suddenly, Fighting/Psychic/Steel hits the majority of the metagame really hard.
I also want to mention that Scizor cannot be classed as a counter, because Metagross can learn Fire Punch. Of course, you're giving up coverage but the last moveslot is open to whatever you want (although grass knot is probably the best option).