Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[cyanize]

Edit: I'm in agreement with a small rise for Raichu (C or C+), but if this happens I think Zebstrika should get a boost too.

I don't quite agree with that; Zebstrika is rather underwhelming in my eyes. It only has okay coverage in Overheat and HP Grass, one of which forces it to switch and the other of which does jack to most things it wants to hit due to its low power and Zeb's low special attack. Outspeeding everything relevant bar Swellow isn't super helpful when you don't do much of anything to back it up; the only things it outspeeds that Rotom/Evire don't and can actually kill are Floatzel, +2 Costa (though i'm sure Ajet decimates it), Archeops, and in Rotom's case, Jynx and max speed Xatu (one of which is essentially nonexistant and the other usually either takes one hit and kills back or outspeeds anyways due to scarf.) It's decidedly unthreatening due to it's reaally weak attacks (it doesn't even have a 50% chance to KO liepard with STAB LO Tbolt) and lack of utility outside of spamming pitiful Volt Switches whereas even though Raichu is weak initially, it can set up which gives it very decent power while still having a relevant speed tier of 110, tying with NU's most common speedy offensive mons and has good utility in a fast Encore.


tl;dr Zeb isn't great, don't move it up if Raichu goes up.

 

[KnightK]

I dont understand why carracosta is in A-. Should be B or B-. It is outclassed by barbaracle as a shell smasher and outclassed by rhydon as a check to normal and fire types.

Zangoose is too high aswell imo. Its speed is just too lackluster when you have options like tauros, it doesnt hit as hard but speed is way more important in this meta. Zangoose was good in BW when you had to break through tangela and alomomola, but in this gen it seems to always dissapoint. It does good against teams that are very slow and bulky, but even then you have to predict right with facade and close combat because the opponent is probably going to try to wear you down with toxic damage and pivoting into stuff like ferroseed and rhydon to make you take toxic and iron barbs damage. Tauros has fire blast for ferroseed and can live an eq from rhydon, and iron head/eq is a 3hko/4hko if I remember correctly. Imo it should be B or B-

Prinplup is a very solid defogger and check to physical attackers in general and can also switch into fire types atleast once. Should be A

I think Jumpluff should move to B+ because of its speed and access to sleep and SD. It cleans consistently if youre able too get rid of steels and priority users like shiftry.

And tbh the same thing counts for raichu. Its basically a special jumpluff. it can boost with NP and has the same speed stat. Its more difficult for it to set up because it doesnt have a sleep inducing move. But it is more powerful in return basically killing everything in one shot after a nasty plot boost. So if you manage to get rid of priority users and very specially bulky mons like hariyama it should be able to win the game. C is just criminally low. Id put it in B because its splashability is pretty bad. Its a hard pokemon to build around.

Haven't gone around to posting in the new viability rankings yet so I thought I would give my thoughts on things I've seen in here. Also good job with the new rankings they are much much better.

Carracosta Drops to B Ranks - Heck No
Carracosta definitely earns A- rank. It is probably the most definitive A- mon to me no way it should ever drop into the B ranks, and honestly your post reads as someone who has seemingly never used Carracosta at least not properly.

The Defensive Stealth rock set definitely draws comparisons to Tank Rhydon but Carracosta checks many top tier threats much better than Rhydon does. Archeops may not be S rank anymore but is very much still a threat and Carracosta is this tier's single best check to it. Earthquake is a 4hko factoring in lefties and archeops can't just rely on slapping on Aqua tail for major damage like it can for Rhydon. Carracosta can then just scald away burning potentially burning any switch ins or bringing Archeops down to like 18%. If you run aqua jet, which in my opinion is the best use of its 4th move slot, it is one of the few pokemon that can 100% beat sash endeavor archeops which still super common on Hyper Offense.

Also Also Carracosta while it really should run lefties most of the time isn't 100% reliant on its item unlike Rhydon it can run berries to lure in various threats such as Lum berry to 1v1 Sash Vivillon with the combination of Rock Slide+Aqua jet (just one example).

Scald is super nice not just for the obvious reasons but it is a spammable 100% accurate move that Rhydon really wishes it had. Every competent team has multiple ground immunities and Rhydon's Stone edge & Megahorn while strong are innacurate. Also Carracosta can adjust its 4th moveslot with a bit more freedom than Rhydon to fit its 4th moveslot to accompany team needs. Aqua jet, Toxic, Ice Beam, and protect are all options I've tried on it with good success, knock off is also an option but not as good in my opinion.

Speaking of scald Carracosta can go both mixed and special making it both unpredictable and deadly as would be checks or mons that could take a hit to the physical shell smash set may be straight OHKO'd by common mixed or special shell smash variants which is a huge advantage over barbaracle. For example you send out barbaracle opponent switches into Weezing you SSmash on the switch and fail to OHKO and get burned and you are now crippled (Yes Lum berry is a thing but you should really be running shuca if using Barbaracle). Where as Carracosta can just as easily be in the same situation but surprise opponents with mixed sets and even if you get burned you are still a scary +2, +2 carracosta with a non crippled hydro pump. Also Carracosta with its better defenses + solid rock sets up Shell smashes way easier than barbaracle.


Moving onto other nominations I'll keep them brief because Carracosta was the big discussion point and most of these noms are pretty straightforward.
Zangoose Drop to B rank - No
I find it odd that of the things to use as your main claim to support your nom for Zangoose to move down is its speed. Yea base 90 isn't the fastest but you still outspeed the majority of the meta including the base 85 speed tier if jolly as well as the base 80s and 70s which makes up the large majority of the entire offensive tier lol. And you forgot to mention in your post complaining about why there is little to reason to use Zangoose over Tauros who has better speed that Zangoose has a move called quick attack. Which combined with Zangoose's base 115 attack and toxic boost is one of the strongest priority moves in the tier that isn't reliant on your opponent attacking you (sucker punch).
252 Atk Guts Swellow Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 90-106 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 109-130 (45.2 - 53.9%) -- 46.5% chance to 2HKO

Plus it actually 2hkos physical defensively mega audino.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 151-179 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 211-249 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Most of the time it will just stall you out with Wish/Protect but it is still a good indicator of its raw output. Your argument about how opponents can pivot between bulky mons a good amount of the time stalling out the toxic orb is a completely valid criticism though and I think it was a driving reason for it being dropped out of the A ranks. I don't think it validates it being dropped any further because Zangoose is still pretty threatening hitting even resists really hard.

Prinplup Rise to A Rank - Lol no
To be blunt Prinplup is not good in this meta i'd go as far to say it's garbage. Its far too passive and easily abused due to its sole reliance on scald and not much else. NU is not scarce on hazard control and has trouble being nearly as viable after the drops of Shiftry, Skuntank, Hitmonchan, and even Claydol. Generally other forms of hazard control are superior to prinplup on offensive and balance builds. Even on more stally teams Prinplup isn't generally really wanted because it lacks recovery. Prinplup is still probably better than the stuff in C rank and I'm happy you have had success with it but the idea of Prinplup in A rank in this current meta is honestly pretty laughable to me as I'd imagine it is for most people who have played NU as of recent.
Jumpluff to B+ - N/A
I've used jumpluff a decent amount but not the offensive SD Acro/Seed bomb set you are speaking of so I can't have a valid opinion on this. I will say though that from my experience Jumpluff's frailty sucks considering on the no item acro set it is still taking like ~45 from knock off and fighting moves. Evne then Jumpluff provides crazy amount of free turns with sleep powder, encore, and memento but I have a hard time seeing it as a rank above some of the very good mons in B rank like Mismagius or Liepard.
Raichu to C+ - Yea
Base 110 speed is wonderful. While really frail can beat sucker punch shenanigans with substitute and encore with the latter also giving it many opportunities for setting up a nasty plot. Archeops while definitely still used a lot isn't seeing the usage it used to so less coin flip speed ties. Has some issues with 4MSS but makes good revenge killer and lightingrod is nice just to deter volt switchers. Definitely a level above C with recent meta game trends (lol wtf is Servine doing in C rank). Also makes a semi-decent anti lead with sash as it can volt switch to break sashes and fire off grass knot/focus blast on common rock type stealth rock leads even encoring them into rocks.
Zebstrika to C+ - No
Not sure why people are trying to nom this zebra alongside Raichu, Raichu is definitely better. Speed isn't everything, Zebstrika's 80 base special attack is pitiful and it has no access to nasty plot. Its generally underwhelming and lacks KOing power and after like any prior damage completely is destroyed by like any form of priority and it doesn't have access to encore to get around sucker punch. Articfoxkeh pretty much sumed everything of note already up so I'll leave it at that but yea no dice.
Scyther to A+ - Yes
One of the better fighting resists in the tier, and one of the fewer fighting resists with instant recovery. Extremely diverse and unpredictable sets very fast and very strong. Appreciates Archeops slight decline in usage. Even if it is walled by stuff like Rhydon it can just U-Turn out like Mega Beedrill in UU a lot of the time it comes in secures kills with U-Turn and grabs momentum. Very customizable and splashable for teams. Hazard control is easier than ever and Scyther's 4x Stealth Rock weakness really is the only thing keeping it from being S rank at this point. Seriously this thing is really good right now I'd put it above some of the things in A+ like Pyroar.
Mesprit to A+ - Definitely
Do I have to say much? Mesprit is the most versatile pokemon in the entire tier and fits in so much role compression into one slot that I often find it hard to build a team without it. Check to ground types, fighting types, Dark types with colbur, malamar with signal beam, bulky grounds/rocks with energy ball, momentum grabber, wincon, healing wish user, one of the best scarfers in the tier, calm mind psyshock beats mega audino, healing wish user (in case you didn't catch it the first time), one of the best stealth rockers in the tier (can even prevent other rocks with imprison and xatu with skill swap). Forces your opponent to scout like crazy because it is just so insanely unpredictable, how is this thing not A+ rank it is better than like half the stuff there lol.
Vivillon from A to A- or B+ - Heck No
Not going to talk about this much since Megazard said pretty much everything that needed to be said. But vivillon wears down checks pretty fast because hurricane hits so hard it can run energy ball for bulky rocks and the endeavor sash set is still extremely deadly.

I've spent way too much time writing all this time to make any nominations of my own but I will say that I am a bit iffy on some of the placements in B+ and B. I fail to see how pokemon like Cacturne and Torterra are worthy of B+ rank who seem to me to be worst then a lot of things in B. While Mismagius and Liepard are in B rank and at least to me are better than most things in B and some things even in B+.

 

[soulgazer]

Rank Clefairy pls

doesn't have to waste 2 moveslots for recovery so it can abuse CM+Twave or coverage / utility move better than M-audino. also sr + cm on the same set is complete dogshit don't use that :/

 

[Brawlfest]

Raichu to C+ - Yea
Base 110 speed is wonderful. While really frail can beat sucker punch shenanigans with substitute and encore with the latter also giving it many opportunities for setting up a nasty plot. Archeops while definitely still used a lot isn't seeing the usage it used to so less coin flip speed ties. Has some issues with 4MSS but makes good revenge killer and lightingrod is nice just to deter volt switchers. Definitely a level above C with recent meta game trends (lol wtf is Servine doing in C rank). Also makes a semi-decent anti lead with sash as it can volt switch to break sashes and fire off grass knot/focus blast on common rock type stealth rock leads even encoring them into rocks.
Zebstrika to C+ - No
Not sure why people are trying to nom this zebra alongside Raichu, Raichu is definitely better. Speed isn't everything, Zebstrika's 80 base special attack is pitiful and it has no access to nasty plot. Its generally underwhelming and lacks KOing power and after like any prior damage completely is destroyed by like any form of priority and it doesn't have access to encore to get around sucker punch. Articfoxkeh pretty much sumed everything of note already up so I'll leave it at that but yea no dice.

Zebstrika is far better than Raichu lol. Overheat is a lifesaver in terms of getting through the abundance of grass types in the meta, and actually outspeeding Archeops + Tauros + Floatzel + Jolly Smashed Costa which otherwise shit on most offensive teams is one of the only reasons to use such a fast electric type at all.

 

[TTFTW]

Jumpluff to B+ - N/A
I've used jumpluff a decent amount but not the offensive SD Acro/Seed bomb set you are speaking of so I can't have a valid opinion on this. I will say though that from my experience Jumpluff's frailty sucks considering on the no item acro set it is still taking like ~45 from knock off and fighting moves. Evne then Jumpluff provides crazy amount of free turns with sleep powder, encore, and memento but I have a hard time seeing it as a rank above some of the very good mons in B rank like Mismagius or Liepard.

Well, if you're going to use jumpluff in nu sd acro is the only set that doesn't waste a team slot imo (and is also the only reason it should be ranked so high). Other sets like sub seed, encore and memento means you'll need to give up either sleep powder (which is extremely necessary for setting up) or swords dance (pluff is extremely weak without a boost, it doesn't even 2HKO carracosta and tank rhydon with +0 seed bomb). And you can't even afford to remove a stab since the grass + flying STAB combination is what makes people use pluff over another fast physical flying type (if you don't run seed bomb, lanturn, rhydon and carracosta check you, and if you don't run acrobatics you lose your main way of dealing "a lot of" damage to things and grass types wall you).

But hey, the fact that it only has one viable set doesn't mean it's not good (look at klinklang), SD pluff is actually decent in this meta. Its great speed tier and great typing/stab combination means you'll be a half decent revenge killer/late game cleaner + it pressures spinners like claydol, sandslash and hitmonchan, making it a great option for hazard stack. And mons that doesn't get hit by its stabs (klinklang, mawile, rotom-f, garbodor, weezing) will go to sleep and give you some free turns --> and all those threats I mentioned have no reliable recovery, so they'll eventually get worn down by hazards to the point where jumpluff becomes extremely dangerous. And aside from all that, it's one of the best sun checks the tier has to offer.

Threat level
Jumpluff isn't the easiest thing to stop at all, speed + sleep powder gives it +2 boosts that lets pluff put in a lot of work. The best ways of stopping are priority, fast mons and fat checks --> the fat checks (mentioned before) have no reliable recovery, so you can't really call them straight up counters. Its fast checks can't switch-in unless it's sap sipper zebstrika, which means that something is going to sleep/taking a lot of damage, floatzel doesn't appreciate a seed bomb, and swellow doesn't want to switch-in to an acrobatics. The only priority moves that threatens pluff is ice shard and sucker punch, and looking at viable ice shard users (pilo and vanilluxe) you notice they aren't even that common, and shiftry/skunk can't OHKO you without rocks.
But unfortunately there's something stopping jumpluff from being the deadliest set up sweeper in nu: 55 base attack. This holds it back a lot of times, it just loses SO many KO's, that's why I wouldn't call it impossible to stop after it sets up, but it's still really annoying to deal with.

Splashability
Pluff needs support to do something, even though its checks are relatively easy to wear down they still destroy pluff if you miss a sleep powder/sleep clause is on. Hazards is normally the best way to support it, lures like rock stab archeops or another thing that shares pluff counters like sawk(so they wear down each other's counters and all that stuff) can work too. The thing is: pluff is mediocre without the right support, it misses so many KO's and is way too frail to work as a fighting/water check, so without decent team support it's a solid C+ ranked mon tbh. It's defintely not the most splashable thing ever due to the support it needs, but its pros can usually overcome its cons if you play it correctly. Not the easiest thing to build around/use.

Consistency
You'll find yourself getting a lot of good match-ups with jumpluff on your side of the field (it's one of those things people tend to not prepare for), it does a decent job against bulky offense by outspeeding common mons on this playstyle such as pyroar and scyther. It isn't deadweight against offense because it outspeeds a lot of things and threatens then with sleep powder and dual stab, though floatzel/tauros/piloswine (which are rather common on bulky offense/offense) guarantee pluff isn't the best thing ever against fast offense.
And I'm not sure about how pluff does against semi-stall/stall because these playstyles aren't common in the current meta and I haven't faced one of these with pluff yet, but I imagine it does a decent job since it beats quagsire, vileplume, megadino to a certain degree (you need prior damage) and other stall mons.
Pluff is not the most potent mon during the entire battle, it usually shines late game/when you get a opportunity to set up --> which is not hard to get due to sleep powder.
Another great thing about it is its ability to beat rockers that aren't called piloswine, preventing rocks 50% of the time with sleep powder or stab moves.

Effect on the metagame
Pluff isn't something to be extremely scared of, you'll be able to deal with it if you play correctly and know about its biggest flaws (weakness, frailness, not %accurate sleep move, etc), I haven't heard of a coverage move that is used specially for jumpluff in nu, so it's not overcentralizing. Pluff doesn't affect the viability of many mons (because it's not that common, and not using a mon because you're scared of jumpluff isn't a reason most players will accept, at least I wouldn't) ,and it doesn't really outclass anything. Overall it's a solid mon that threatens teams that are unprepared for it, but it definitely has flaws that, in my opinion, does not make it a A-/A ranked threat, so B+ will probably be a solid rank for it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it stays in B.

Great mon regardless, really fun to use.

 

[erz]

ok if i may i want to start a discussion about another pokemon

Articuno

i tested this mon a lot in the recent days and i have to say that its way better than expected. its abilitiyto heal up and his few switch ins make it a huge threat.

Threat level
at first, Articuno has not many switchins at all. it has a great spammable move ( hurricane ) and has access to STAB ice-attacks which arent bad either. Ive made a list of all mons which are above it and how good articuno is vs them

S rank to A

Hide

http://prntscr.com/91bpao

A- to B+

Hide

http://prntscr.com/91bsox

also it can work as a great team-supporter. The defensive stats are fantastic ( 90/100/125 ) and it has many good supportmoves like heal bell, u turn, toxic, icy wind, roar or tailwind.

Work in a team

Articuno can be used as either a offensive LO variant with hp fire/freezedry/hurricane/roost or as a defensive mon for checking e.g. ludicolo, lilligant, grasses/bugs in general.
Also it can work great in rain teams due to raindance/hurricane and u-turn to get safe switches in ur rain sweeper.

Flaws
rip to sr. SR are articuno's biggest weakness. it looses its ability as a counter as a defensive one or its revenged by many other mons. or youre own LO recoil.
Also its speed is pretty good, but it struggles against mons that are even faster than itself, like tauros, scyther, electrivire and fast fire mons.
and at last the risk of hitting hurricane. hurricane is a great move to spam and articunos natural bulk provides that it isnt ohkoed by most of attacks but to be pressured to roost can lose u games.

effect on the metagame
its pretty underrated, not that many teams have safe counters, but basically every team with klingklang or sawk has at least a pretty good revenger. its not overcentralizing at all, i played like 40 games and ive never seen an articuno besides mine. but usage doesnt affect viability right ? Aurorus or Jynx are definitly options that u can choose over articuno so its not much used at all. But its rly rly solid overall and i think it should at least move to B+. SR are a huge problem, so i can understand why it's ranked as B but i think it works just too good rn that i should stay there.

[ who finds missspellings can keep them ;) ]

 

[Disjunction]

hey, shutting this thread down with Mont's blessings since he's retired. I'm posting new thread in a minute.

I've already had my gushy goodbye message so I'm not going to get real sappy here, but mont's done a great job running this thread for as long as he has. I'll do my best to fill his shoes.