Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Jaguar360]

I want to nominate Thundurus-T from B- to B. As I'm aware Tornadus-I is in general a better mon, I bring a "new" set that is likely similar to his cousin, Tornadus-T

Thundurus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 244 HP / 252 SpA / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch/U-turn
- Focus Blast/Superpower
- Thunderbolt/Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ice]/[Flying]

As Torn-T is a much better mon in general with higher speed to thread HO, Hurricane spam, and Regenerator, it also adds electric weakness, while Thundurus gets a way to recover some HP and inmunnity to T-wave. This combined with 145 Sp Attack and modest nature makes him a good choice to manage stally teams, specially T-wave users like Klefki, Clefable, Ferrothorn, or Thundurus-I (I know this last one is not defensive but whatever). Electric type add no additional weakness, while Flyng and Steel resistances make him able to switch in vs some pokes Tornadus-T can't.

Mandatory calcs:

+2 0 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 123-145 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 105-124 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 5.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Thundurus-T: 146-172 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

No credit for the set? R00d ;( (Unless you somehow thought of it before I posted my Next Best Thing entry)

I think I might support Thundurus-T to B-, though it's fine in C+ really. This Assault Vest set is really great at checking opposing Electrics with Volt Absorb and tanking hits from special attackers in emergencies. As mentioned, it's not a bad check to Scizor and Talonflame (aside from Offensive Swords Dance in Talonflame's case) either. I do think that Agility is a more notable set for it, however, along with possiblity Double Dance and Scarf.

Its niches from Thundurus-I make B- a good possiblity, but C+ is still a good spot for it to represent that competition that it has with it. It could go either way. The link to the NBT entry has replays btw if anyone wants to see AV Thundy-T in practice.

 

[Srn]

another off-topic nom i wanna make:
Mega hera B+-->A-

The main reasoning for this raise, i believe, is mostly because bulky lando-t has dropped harshly in usage and bulky chomp is replacing it. It's not too hard to see why mega heracross benefits from this:
252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 215-260 (51.1 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 95-115 (24.8 - 30.1%) -- approx. 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Clefable isn't as much of a problem as people think it is either:
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 190-225 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- approx. 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
a tiny bit of chip damage or an SD and the hard check will evaporate.

In general, as a wallbreaker mega heracross has always been pretty amazing. Its switch-ins are extremely limited and most are 2hko'd by the right coverage move or OHKO'd at +2. It can be revenge killed by gothitelle and talonflame, but those are basically the only options stall has vs mhera (or a super super fast togekiss). It's also different from most other wallbreakers because it provides some signficant defensive synergy as well; weavile, bisharp, and exca are all pokemon that can destroy even prepared offense, and are not that easy to stop in general. It's initial speed can be nice for nailing some kills against hoopa-u, dragonite, and gyarados, and being able to anti-lead breloom means that you don't have to sack a mon to sleep.

The only real flaws are that there's no "click n kill" move that you get to click with it. Mega medi's HJK will easily 2hko frail resists, and mega gardevoir's hyper voice and char-y's fire stab are all incredibly consistent. However, mega heracross requires more prediction to break properly, as clicking the wrong move may give something that can kill you a switch-in. Another annoyance is the increased popularity of torn-t, which will easily OHKO. Ofc its not switching in, and even when it does get in it has to rely on hurricane to kill (m-hera survives even LO heat wave).

I can see it at the level of A- mons too. Raikou is nice for its speed and its ability to check thundurus+torn-t, but has major flaws in how hard-walled it is by hippowdon or quag, and specs sets are super super prediction reliant.
Mega aero too has lots of great coverage and checks talon, torn, etc, but it lacks natural power and needs some prediction to get the 2hko's it wants as well, and takes up a mega slot. They have pretty big perks but some pretty big setbacks as well, and I think that mega hera fits right in.

(I'll try to get replays later..)

 

[Icing On Da Cake]

another off-topic nom i wanna make:
Mega hera B+-->A-

The main reasoning for this raise, i believe, is mostly because bulky lando-t has dropped harshly in usage and bulky chomp is replacing it. It's not too hard to see why mega heracross benefits from this:
252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 215-260 (51.1 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 95-115 (24.8 - 30.1%) -- approx. 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Clefable isn't as much of a problem as people think it is either:
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 190-225 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- approx. 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
a tiny bit of chip damage or an SD and the hard check will evaporate.

In general, as a wallbreaker mega heracross has always been pretty amazing. Its switch-ins are extremely limited and most are 2hko'd by the right coverage move or OHKO'd at +2. It can be revenge killed by gothitelle and talonflame, but those are basically the only options stall has vs mhera (or a super super fast togekiss). It's also different from most other wallbreakers because it provides some signficant defensive synergy as well; weavile, bisharp, and exca are all pokemon that can destroy even prepared offense, and are not that easy to stop in general. It's initial speed can be nice for nailing some kills against hoopa-u, dragonite, and gyarados, and being able to anti-lead breloom means that you don't have to sack a mon to sleep.

The only real flaws are that there's no "click n kill" move that you get to click with it. Mega medi's HJK will easily 2hko frail resists, and mega gardevoir's hyper voice and char-y's fire stab are all incredibly consistent. However, mega heracross requires more prediction to break properly, as clicking the wrong move may give something that can kill you a switch-in. Another annoyance is the increased popularity of torn-t, which will easily OHKO. Ofc its not switching in, and even when it does get in it has to rely on hurricane to kill (m-hera survives even LO heat wave).

I can see it at the level of A- mons too. Raikou is nice for its speed and its ability to check thundurus+torn-t, but has major flaws in how hard-walled it is by hippowdon or quag, and specs sets are super super prediction reliant.
Mega aero too has lots of great coverage and checks talon, torn, etc, but it lacks natural power and needs some prediction to get the 2hko's it wants as well, and takes up a mega slot. They have pretty big perks but some pretty big setbacks as well, and I think that mega hera fits right in.

(I'll try to get replays later..)

While Mega Heracross is an excellent wallbreaker, it has a few flaws that keep it out of A- imo. The most glaring of these is its mediocre base 75 speed. Similar to Hoopa-Unbound, another powerful wallbreaker, its Speed is serviceable enough to handle the Pokemon it performs the best against, which are slow stall and balance mons. However, its relatively low speed means that it has a poor matchup against offense, which has become even better in ORAS due to the influx of fast, powerful Megas, and the increase in popularity of threats, such as Alakazam and Tornadus-Therian. Many Pokemon have a hard time switching into Heracross due to its excellent power and nice coverage, but it doesn't take much to revenge kill it or force it out with common threats on offense, like SD Talonflame or Mega Diancie. While its bulk is excellent as well, its weakness to Fire, Fairy, Psychic, and especially Flying moves, all of which aren't hard to find on offense, makes it hard for Heracross to utilize its bulk effectively. It also has to make a difficult choice in choosing Substitute or Swords Dance, meaning it has to choose between having its offensive presence boosted or being protected from revenge killing and status, both of which are very much welcome on Heracross. Its resistances are nice too, but Heracross isn't able to take repeated hits very long due to a lack of recovery. Heracross is also pretty predictable, too. Status, like burns, also sucks, as does physically defensive Unaware Clefable.

A few calcs

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 161-191 (53.4 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
after rocks sucker punch kills
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 152-179 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
cant switch in either
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 172-203 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
cant switch in either

Yeah, it's fair to say "Just sac a Pokemon and get a free switch in." The point, though, is the fact that it's an unreliable check to all of these.

Keep in B+ imo

Side note: raikou checks a bunch of threats like thundy, torn, manaphy, slow talonflame, keldeo, etc. and hp grass on raikou isnt too awful if you want to lure quagsire but hp ice is best overall imo and mega aero can do useful things like check birds, tear up much of offense, pursuit, taunt, and even use unorthodox moves like hone claws, defog, and sr if you really want it to do that

 

[Punchshroom]

With the high Defense and resistances to Ground and Dark, I daresay that Mega Heracross's matchup against offense is not too shabby at all. It can easily find opportunities to punch holes into offense by threatening common mons on offense such as TankChomp, Bisharp, Scarf TTar, Mega Scizor, Mega Gyara, and can even serve as a soft check to Landorus-T (MHera is only really at a disadvantage if it gets Intimidated, otherwise it is Lando-T that get sent packing) and Excadrill. Mega Hera doesn't get forced out by that much on offense as you claim, plus that's a way better matchup against offense than something like Mega Medicham, whose greater power is limited by its miniscule switch-in opportunities. Mega Hera also has the bulk to switch into stuff like Hippowdon, Gliscor, and Ferrothorn without much worse for wear. It's a strong contender for A- Rank.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

yo i hear people being like "mega hera dont got what it takes for a- imo"

do you realize how little support this thing needs to sweep entire teams? Alright, im overselling it a little bit, but this thing is something you dont sleep on. Balance has few answers to this monster. And you may think "oh but its only balance what about offense" but people seem to be forgetting that something that beats an entire metagame with little support is much much better then having ok matchups against all three metagames. Heracross is the definition of that, except it basically destroys stall and balance. MSab easily loses to MHera even with Jolly EV's, as seen here:
252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 165-200 (54.2 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO I dont run MSab myself so idk what people run lol. Mons like Scizor and Hippo who usually wall these hard hitting walls stand zero chance. Offensive Scizor is practically OHKO'ed with like 2 SR switchins, which is easy when you put the fact in that they usually dont run roost/use roost and hippo obviously loses to Bullet Seed, if you run it. Bulky Zor cant switch in, but usually Bulky Zor switches in to Hera and not vice versa.

So MHera really destroys many threats and pressures the hell out of teams. Its only serious problem is Speed and lack of priority/weakness to Flying types. Hera works surprisingly well with Sticky Web/Trick Room Teams (yeah i fucking know Sticky Web isnt too effective) which Hera is arguably the best Mega for. Although he does require support to actually outspeed his threats like Torn T and Mega Pidgeot, support isnt a conterargument when you are basing your team around Trick Room lmao. Id also like to put in his resistance to Dark and Ground like shroomed said up there, making him actually a good check to non +6 LO Bisharp with Jolly and other knock off users. May i also dare say with the right play MHera can easily take one mon off an offensive team with some pressuring and power, as MHera can OHKO frail offensive mons with resisted moves.

He has support options, he has insane power and the best BP output in the meta (none of his good moves go lower then 120), is actually kinda bulky, and beats practically 1/2 of the entire S-A rank mons, I actually cant really see why it shouldnt go A-. I myself have been having trouble with it and MHera is one of those many mons that really have no answers against Balance. The only way to easily threaten/beat MHera is to revenge kill or do some flashy shit to put it in a bad position where he can be killed. With the decrease of birdspam (which means the decrease of common answers) due to loss of viability MHera has 0 reasons to not be in A-.


Feel free to say otherwise. Im all ears.

 

[Martin]

I feel that M-Heracross' utility when using the two formes in conjunction is a big selling point for it. Allowing Heracross to absorb a burn and activate Guts is a big draw, as it means that it doesn't necessarily become dead weight if it has to come in on a wisp, which I think is something that other holds back a number of other physical balance breakers struggle with (looking at you Mega Garchomp and Crawdaunt). Don't have much else to add as I don't use M-Hera much, so I won't say any more.

 

[FootHead58]

I feel like it's worth mentioning a few things about heracross.
1) his awesomeness when on rain teams. He DESTROYS bulky grass types which is indefinitely useful for rain.
2) stall's only answer to him is clefable. Otherwise he demolishes it with ease.
3) highest attack stat in the game (not factoring in huge power) barring mega mewtwo X. Yeah mega medicham's is a bit higher, but CC is doing almost as much as HJK, without the miss chance AND heracross actually has respectable bulk. 80/ 115 / 110? That's phenomenal when compared to medicham's 60/85/85. It's hardly lower even after a CC drop lol, and even then Heracross's HP is still higher by a respectable 20 points.
4) another thing to mention that has already been hit on but I still feel like it's worth saying is this - non-mega heracross has two abilities that are both super useful. Guts allows him to, unlike medicham, take a status and still pull its weight. Also, it has moxie which is super useful for a heavy hitter like heracross.

While I do want to say medicham does have a higher speed and fake out/ bullet punch, which is definately nice, heracross has bulk, is walked by a whole lot less (whereas mega medicham hates every and all bulky psychics) and has access to moves with high BP but also high accuracy.

While it has a lot of checks, that argument simply doesn't hold up - Keldeo is checked by a lot too but no one here questions how great it is!

TL;DR: heracross plays similarly to medicham, however it actually can take a hit, beats rain's checks, incredibly hard for stall to deal with, can take a status without being totally useless, and useful pre- mega evo abilities make heracross worthy of A-

 

[Winter2988]

New thread and update time.

Empoleon: Up to B
Skarmory: Up to A-
M-Medicham: Up To B-
Starmie: Stays in A
Tyrantrum: Up to B-
Alakazam: Up to B-
Serperior: Up to B+
Gardevoir: Unranked to D
Garchomp: Up to A+
Blissey: Up to C
Forretress: Unranked to D
Zapdos: Up to B
Slowking: Up to B
Lucario: Stays in B-
Conkeldurr: Stays in B
M-Alakazam: Up to A
Scolipede: Up to B

There isn't exactly anything very specific we're looking to move or down at this point more so gauging the opinions of others as to their placement in where if they should be higher or lower. From ben some ideas of what we're considering. This is really just a quick run down of what he wanted to discuss so nothing too in depth.

Clefable - idk just threw this in there cuz it checks/walls a lot of the meta despite the presence of metagross which ppl exaggerated so potential S and better than most of A+
M-Gyarados - versatility in the tier lets it adapt and better than most in A
Manaphy - is weak against offense argument enough to stay A or go A+
Tornadus-T - hurrimiss but other than that fits A+
Chansey- stall isn't as prominent as it once was
Mega Houndoom - ive seen arguments for a rise and for a drop, who am I to believe
Mega Pidgeot- if torn rose, shouldn't pidgeot is the logic
Mega Ampharos -http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-viability-ranking-thread-v2-check-post-2500-pg-100.3526596/page-114#post-6161606

Took a quick vote on Infernape and Scizor but it came down to an equal consensus in where a move up or down couldn't be legitimately placed so these two will be part of discussion so to speak as well.

Anyways so there it is and let's keep it going.

Edit: Oh and we need a new banner to reflect ORAS.

I never really used Mega Heracross but I think moxie Choice Band Heracross is just a monster. Another thing Togekiss with Serence Grace Air slash dazzling gleam roost and thunder wave is broken the amount of flinches or paralysis if you cnt outspeed togekiss after thunder wave you have a 15% chance of being able to attack add a sticky web and togekiss can sweep or wall an entire team I just don't see much that can check it Slow walls just don't get a chance to attack and heal bell users have a hard time getting one off. Anyone know how to counter one. Because from what I have seen it should be in ubers

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I feel that M-Heracross' utility when using the two formes in conjunction is a big selling point for it. Allowing Heracross to absorb a burn and activate Guts is a big draw, as it means that it doesn't necessarily become dead weight if it has to come in on a wisp, which I think is something that other holds back a number of other physical balance breakers struggle with (looking at you Mega Garchomp and Crawdaunt). Don't have much else to add as I don't use M-Hera much, so I won't say any more.

Aren't you just better of using regular Heracross if the point is to absorb burns?

 

[Winter2988]

Aren't you just better of using regular Heracross if the point is to absorb burns?

I use regular Heracross Choice Band Moxie Close Combat Mega Horn knock off HP Ice

 

[Clair]

Aren't you just better of using regular Heracross if the point is to absorb burns?

Being able to absorb Burns without getting completely crippled is just another edge M-Heracross has over comparable physical wallbreakers, it isn't "the point" of using it. While we're on the subject of M-Hera, Substitute is far and away the best set at the moment (better vs the common offense, better against Goth stall), and I do agree that it probably deserves A-.

I use regular Heracross Choice Band Moxie Close Combat Mega Horn knock off HP Ice

Good to know. Also:
0 SpA Heracross Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 104-124 (27.2 - 32.4%) -- 52.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

-> C+
C is too low for Rotom-H imo. It's very comparable to Rotom-W, but can check or counter a significant number of threats that its counterpart cannot (assuming a physically defensive set with dual status); such as M-Gardevoir, Zard-Y, Wisp Talonflame, Raikou / Manectric / Thundurus, Serperior, Breloom etc.

That said, the Rocks weakness is a killer, and significantly hurts its viability (although it does pair nicely with M-Sab). I'm arguing for C+, but I can see it fitting in B- as well.

 

[Karxrida]

Absorbing Burns isn't really a plus when 3/4 moves are RNG-reliant. You aren't going to be putting out consistent damage without Skill Link.

 

[nameless90]

-> C+
C is too low for Rotom-H imo. It's very comparable to Rotom-W, but can check or counter a significant number of threats that its counterpart cannot (assuming a physically defensive set with dual status); such as M-Gardevoir, Zard-Y, Wisp Talonflame, Raikou / Manectric / Thundurus, Serperior, Breloom etc.That said, the Rocks weakness is a killer, and significantly hurts its viability (although it does pair nicely with M-Sab). I'm arguing for C+, but I can see it fitting in B- as well.

Agree with Rotom-H in C+ rank: despite being weak to Water, Rock and to Mold Breaker Earth attacks (the latter two things hurt its viability a lot), its typing grants it the ability to check some threats (look at here for the list http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-checks-compendium.3545711/) not to mention an immunity to both Thunder Wave and Burn with some good resistances provided by the new Fire type (to Faerie, Bug, Grass, Electric). Being resistant to both Bug and Electric means being better towards VoltTurn strategy whereas the Grass resistance is useful to check dangerous cleaners such as Serperior.

Overheat is a more accurate and a stronger move than Hydro Pump and even with -2 in SpA, it can still take away a good chunck of HP to monsters 4x weak to Fire such as Scizor (bulky Swords Dance) and Ferrothorn (OU utility) and can KO them with Will o' Wisp; note that Scizor's and Ferrothorn's STABs are hopelessly walled by Rotom-H.

-2 68 SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Scizor: 304-360 (88.6 - 104.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
-2 0 SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 244-292 (71.1 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 0 SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 228-268 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-2 0 SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 152-182 (50.4 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 0 SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 140-168 (46.5 - 55.8%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO

The stats drops hurt forcing it to switch out more often than Rotom-W but with the basic help of a Defogger/Rapid spinner or Mega Sableye this shouldn't be so much a problem.

Rotom-H to C+ at maximum in my opinion and not less because the stuff in C rank is more niche than the microwave oven even including the opportunity cost of using it instead of the washing machine (= Rotom Wash).

 

[Gary]

Yeah Mega Hera is definitely one of those megas that would get a shit ton of usage if there wasn't so many other amazing megas to choose from, but it still brings a lot to the table as a mega much like Pinsir or Medi, so I can definitely see it being in A- rank. Mega Gallade is a fucking terrible mega because there is literally so many better megas to choose from, it's not that splashable because you're better off using practically every other mega that are ranks above it, and Mega Medi, while not THAT comparable, is still going to be most people's #1 choice as a Fighting/Psychic. The Speed is literally the only thing Gallade has over Medi, which doesn't mean much considering that Medi can practically beat most of Mega Gallade's counters bar Mega Sableye without even needing a turn of set up + it ironically has an overall better matchup against offense because of its strong dual priority. Skill Swap is terrible please don't ever say it's viable.

Mega Hera has plenty going for it that makes it a high mid tier threat, and I think it can easily fit in the same rank as fellow wallbreaker Mega Medi. While Mega Medi is stronger, faster, and packs more of an immediate punch, Mega Hera's bulk and sheer coverage + SD makes it a much more solid answer to certain things that give it an edge over Medi. First off it's not entirely useless vs Mega Sableye builds like Mega Medi is. This may not seem like much, but if you really think about it considering how fucking retarded Mega Sableye is right now AND how a +0 Pin Missile can easily 2HKO standard Mega Sableye, that's pretty insane. Hell, some Sableye builds just straight lose to a well played Mega Hera, seeing how a +2 move is able to dent anything enough where shit is heavily pressured to heal up or unable to OHKO Mega Hera seeing how bulky it is, which brings me to another point. While Mega Medi has more speed AND priority, it literally has no bulk, and dies to pretty much every form of priority. Mega Hera can eat up pretty much any non super effective hit as well as some super effective hits especially unstabbed, so it can easily take a hit from a LOT of things found on offense, and proceed to get a kill. Much like Mega Medi, if it gets a free switch in against anything on offense which it CAN because of its good defensive typing and bulk, something will most certainly die or take like 75% min. It also takes on Bisharp a LOT better because it resits Sucker.

Hera just has a really good matchup against a lot of commonly used defensive cores in general. A lot of balance cores are prepared for hole punchers like Mega Medi and even Pinsir because of how insanely good Slowbro is at the moment, as well as Kou, Mega Sableye, Skarm, Thundy, and Rocky Helm Garchomp. Mega Hera just straight wrecks all of them at with its coverage moves + not making contact on Mega Chomp is huge too as Chomp wont be able to deal with Hera as easily like it can with Medi and Lopunny thanks to all that chip damage.

If I'm going to be honest here, I'd say Mega Hera is more effective wallbreaker/holepuncher in the current meta. Yes Mega Medi just straight nukes everything and is an annoying son of a bitch with priority, but with balance being so amazing right now and with current meta trends heavily favoring bulky Grounds, Psychics, and Mega Sableye, Mega Heracross is a VERY solid answer to all of them and doesn't even need Pursuit support like Mega Medi, freeing up a slot for something else.

tl;dr Mega Hera to A- for sure. It's far better than half the shit in B+.

 

[AM]

Or you could just drop shit ?_? M-Latias is bad and M-Hera to A- is almost laughable. Promised myself I wouldn't comment on this thread for awhile due to the increase of brain cells dying but damn let's stop raising everything we get a boner on and take the initiative to say some shit actually sucks.

 

[Punchshroom]

Or you could just drop shit ?_? M-Latias is bad and M-Hera to A- is almost laughable. Promised myself I wouldn't comment on this thread for awhile due to the increase of brain cells dying but damn let's stop raising everything we get a boner on and take the initiative to say some shit actually sucks.

Yeah you'd want to actually explain yourself here instead of leaving an empty comment on MHera's lack of usefulness. MHera gives common defensive cores a very hard time (probably even more effectively than Mega Medicham these days, while trading an unfavorable matchup against MSableye for Unaware Clefable), while its bulk and typing salvages its below average Speed when pitted against offense (unlike Hoopa-U).

 

[Anduril]

I mean if you really want to take something out of A- rank it would be Mega Pinsir imo because it suffers from the same opportunity cost that Heracross does and requires quite a bit more support than the rest of A-. I think Heracross is fine in B+, it doesn't exert the same force on the metagame like the rest of A-, and frankly people are hyping it up like it's the second coming of Jesus when in reality nothing has changed for it. It was already able to break those defensive cores before and it still suffers from a massive opportunity cost. B+ is a good rank for it, but the rank itself needs a little bit of work. Just because you hype something up doesn't mean it's better than before. Just my two cents

And please drop Gallade, there is literally no reason to use it over Mega Medicham and being unable to touch Sableye is unacceptable especially with the resurgence of stall.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Yeah you'd want to actually explain yourself here instead of leaving an empty comment on MHera's lack of usefulness. MHera gives common defensive cores a very hard time (probably even more effectively than Mega Medicham these days, while trading an unfavorable matchup against MSableye for Unaware Clefable), while its bulk and typing salvages its below average Speed when pitted against offense (unlike Hoopa-U).

But it loses to any flying type move and common defoggers can revenge kill it so OBVIOUSLY it doesn't deserve a- rank for that.

It's like this thing shouldn't even be ranked because its outclassed by Mega Medicam and other hard hitting mega wallbreakers. Right, AM?

I mean if you really want to take something out of A- rank it would be Mega Pinsir imo because it suffers from the same opportunity cost that Heracross does and requires quite a bit more support than the rest of A-. I think Heracross is fine in B+, it doesn't exert the same force on the metagame like the rest of A-, and frankly people are hyping it up like it's the second coming of Jesus when in reality nothing has changed for it. It was already able to break those defensive cores before and it still suffers from a massive opportunity cost. B+ is a good rank for it, but the rank itself needs a little bit of work. Just because you hype something up doesn't mean it's better than before. Just my two cents

And please drop Gallade, there is literally no reason to use it over Mega Medicham and being unable to touch Sableye is unacceptable especially with the resurgence of stall.

but we aint hyping it... well i guess we are, but we're giving plenty of examples of how much it rapes teams once its "answers" like frail Flying types and some pesky Defoggers are gone. I think people who want this in B+ are undermining how threatening it is to Balance and Stall! My question is is how is this not A- due to it practically beating 2 sets of playstyles.

Sometimes when someone speaks up about a mon, we tend to agree and give our opinions on it. MHera has never been new talent, its just a pretty underrated mon that kinda deserves the hype if anything.

Its not like A- is S rank, either. I mean, Gallade (for now) is in fucking B+ rank and you're putting that trash in the same level (or one level below) as Mega Heracross, who actually isnt

a. outclassed
b. outpowered (unarguably the hardest hitting mega in the meta)
c. and actually doesnt lose to Mega Sableye, which is actually a HUGE thing people like to not include.

I may look like im sucking off MHera, but thats what i think. I'm more then certain people disagree, and thats fine. I just think MHera has what it takes for A- tbh... i mean when we're talking about one of the best WB'ers, MHera comes up.

 

[AM]

Yeah you'd want to actually explain yourself here instead of leaving an empty comment on MHera's lack of usefulness. MHera gives common defensive cores a very hard time (probably even more effectively than Mega Medicham these days, while trading an unfavorable matchup against MSableye for Unaware Clefable), while its bulk and typing salvages its below average Speed when pitted against offense (unlike Hoopa-U).

Like this analysis of its matchup against defensive cores is cute and all until you realize not one single thing has changed in its ability to impale defensive cores in the first place, so not sure why this has been a point of interest, it's one of those things people catch on to and then assume it's better we're all guilty of it no shame in that but jeez. How exactly is its bulk and typing salvaging its below average speed when its typing leaves it prone to a bunch of offensive typings like Psychic, Fairy, and Fire which are commonly seen on builds utilizing the likes of Diancie, Latis, Zards, TFlame, etc? M-Hera really hasn't gotten any better in the metagame so I'm not quite sure where the hype is coming from if the bulk is some sort of benefit to itself. This makes sense if you're a totally defensive player but not everyone and most people aren't focused on the defensive side of mons to begin with. Hoopa-U benefits from a potential to hit both sides of the spectrum without the necessity to play a prediction game by firing off a Dark move normally and has the ability to hold an item to improve a certain matchup which is an enormous fault for M-Hera to maintain its consistency, more so the prediction reliant factor. Like a lot of the B+ stuff it's gonna find these matchups that are just hit or miss. Also the "empty comment" was far from that when I'm explaining exactly what I still believes hold true in that you're better off dropping stuff to reflect some sort of accuracy than just rising something. A lot of these fantastic matchups it has is not really any different than the majority of wall-breakers in the tier such as Kyurem-B and Manaphy and while they have different traits that distinguish them maybe it's the fact that these defensive cores aren't that reliable in the first place.

Drop some stuff from B+ or even A- don't put M-Hera in the same boat as stuff that are more splashable and actually hold more of a threat level in their centralization such as Volcarona, Alakazam, and Klefki. It doesn't even make sense to do that just by looking at what people are using and using effectively.

I mean if you really want to take something out of A- rank it would be Mega Pinsir imo because it suffers from the same opportunity cost that Heracross does and requires quite a bit more support than the rest of A-. I think Heracross is fine in B+, it doesn't exert the same force on the metagame like the rest of A-, and frankly people are hyping it up like it's the second coming of Jesus when in reality nothing has changed for it. It was already able to break those defensive cores before and it still suffers from a massive opportunity cost. B+ is a good rank for it, but the rank itself needs a little bit of work. Just because you hype something up doesn't mean it's better than before. Just my two cents

And please drop Gallade, there is literally no reason to use it over Mega Medicham and being unable to touch Sableye is unacceptable especially with the resurgence of stall.

I don't agree with Mega Pinsir dropping and oml I just realized the notion of M-Hera in A- alongside M-Pinsir is being entertained right now. Please no.

M-Gallade actually runs a pretty baller SD / Bulk Up set with Drain Punch, Ice Punch, Psycho Cut (this bypasses contact which helps with TankChomp without damage) so I don't really care if it drops but it's kind of being overlooked by the whole, it's a useless mega argument. You can use something else by all means but no point in trying to ignore or not showing you guys what people who use M-Gallade are actually using. Yes it's cockblocked by M-Sableye that's never changing.

 

[Gary]

Yeah if Mega Hera stays in B+ then we really need to re work B+ rank to be more fitting for it. It's definitely one of the best mons in B+ alongside Diggers, Loom, Nite, Cune, and the swimmers (minus Mega Swamp). Gallade isn't useless but again, why I would ever use it over another mega I have no idea. I feel like it's one of those things that you just want to build around because fuck it, and it preforms fine and all but you're going to want to use another mega at some point. It needs to drop at LEAST to B, it is not nearly splashable enough as the other B+ ranks. Dragalge is good but way too niche for B+. T-spikes is cool and it hits hard, but again, not being that splashable plays a pretty big role here, and I feel like the meta is more prepared for T-spikes then it was a few months ago. Mega Latias lost a lot of viability with Lando gone, and outside of CM, which better CMers exist out there, I just don't see much of a reason to use it. Mega Swamp isn't as terrible as everyone makes it out to be, but it's far from Kingdra and Kabutops level. I'd much rather use a more useful mega on rain that can actually bust through common rain checks such as Mega Pinsir, Hera, or Scizor.

Everything else looks okay, although I've never been too fond of Gator I guess it can stay. The stuff I just listed though seriously needs to drop though they're no where near B+/A-.

 

[astroboy]

AM, why did you leave the viability council if youre going to comment on every nomination, and insult or needlessly make fun of any post you disagree with, with reasoning only given after being called out. i understand that youre a mod and you have a responsibility to monitor the forums, but you could do so in a manner that actually gets your point across is a meaningful and educated way, instead of "I LOST BRAIN CELLS READING THIS!". this is the kinda behavior i would expect from some ladder hero, not a mod, lmao.

for the record, i do agree with your points in that mega hera and lati shouldnt move up, but i gotta say your delivery was unnesecary.

e: no disrespect meant by this, but i genuinely believe that youve been pulling this kind of stuff a lot recently and i feel as if someone doesnt bring it up (which they wont, unless ur a dumbass like me) then the behavior wont change. hope this made sense

 

[AM]

AM, why did you leave the viability council if youre going to comment on every nomination, and insult or needlessly make fun of any post you disagree with, with reasoning only given after being called out. i understand that youre a mod and you have a responsibility to monitor the forums, but you could do so in a manner that actually gets your point across is a meaningful and educated way, instead of "I LOST BRAIN CELLS READING THIS!". this is the kinda behavior i would expect from some ladder hero, not a mod, lmao.

for the record, i do agree with your points in that mega hera and lati shouldnt move up, but i gotta say your deliver was unnesecary.

I left because of comments like this and the fact the moment I say something honest someone cries about it in the inevitable 3 page until complaining post you see all the time, such as this one.

Are we really doing this again, lol?

 

[henry]

AM, why did you leave the viability council if youre going to comment on every nomination, and insult or needlessly make fun of any post you disagree with, with reasoning only given after being called out. i understand that youre a mod and you have a responsibility to monitor the forums, but you could do so in a manner that actually gets your point across is a meaningful and educated way, instead of "I LOST BRAIN CELLS READING THIS!". this is the kinda behavior i would expect from some ladder hero, not a mod, lmao.

for the record, i do agree with your points in that mega hera and lati shouldnt move up, but i gotta say your deliver was unnesecary.

oh my god you guys dont get it.

i dont care about your opinions of other users and what they post. no one does. this is a pokemon thread. if you have a problem with the thread PM me (ive gotten about 6 different pms and i have midterms so wait a little while for a response).

 

[astroboy]

dont complain about getting called out if you give us a reason to call you out. if every post were to be "mega hera and mega latias shouldnt move up theyre bad lol" then this thread would be worse than it already is. youre not an exception to the rule, and you still cant post whatever you want just to shit on someones opinions without any reasoning.

e: henry ninjad me but fuck it im in too deep

 

[henry]

dont complain about getting called out if you give us a reason to call you out. if every post were to be "mega hera and mega latias shouldnt move up theyre bad lol" then this thread would be worse than it already is. youre not an exception to the rule, and you still cant post whatever you want just to shit on someones opinions without any reasoning.

e: henry ninjad me but fuck it im in too deep

lol what? dude come on. if giving someone a reason to call them out allows it to happen, then what is AM doing wrong? like you said, he's not actually on viability council anymore. the fact that he's a moderator doesn't entitle you to a more in-depth rationale from him, nor does it obligate AM to use G-rated words because, after all, hes "calling the person out," right? ill make sure every post after this on the subject gets deleted. stop responding and read my other post.