Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[i ran out of names]

Mew to A in my opinion i mean sure base 100 atk and sptak isn't great but that means nothing when essentially you can slap it on any team and fit it to whatever you need you can't counter mew because it has a coverage move for anything i mean it 2hkos everything in the meta with certain attacks and is the biggest 4 move slot syndrome in the game


It can run most items and be effective can be offensive defensive cleric sweeper baton passer (dick move) wallbreaker or anti meta it has great bulk but it's lack of great typing keeps it back but nothing can be 100% safe switching in on a mew


A reliable check to scizor as it ohkos with fire blast with ebelt and can easily get 2 or 3 kills by suprising your oponent with obscure coverage moves.


Overall it deserves to be moved up because it preforms every roll in the meta game well, but not higher because it isn't the best at every roll.

 

[AM]

Have a casual discussion in pms not here.

 

[MikeDawg]

I saw a Milotic nom... oh boy...

Milotic is straight up ass. Firstly, the niche that was listed is flat out done better by Suicune, who also gets Mirror Coat and isn't reliant on being statused to be give the other bulky waters competition bulk-wise (and even then Milotic still really hates status nonetheless as it forces it to recover every few turns while being very reliant on its ability to have multiple free turns at its disposal). Its key niche would be haze, which is already done better by Quagsire as it shuts down setup 'mons before using haze - allowing it to come in easily - and Haze patches up its weakness to Mold Breaker setup 'mons like Excadrill and Haxorus. This means that it can only really set itself apart from the other bulky waters with Dragon Tail phazing... which can already be done better by everything from bulky Roar Keldeo to Roar Suicune to even Poliwrath and debatably Vaporeon (the latter of which is ass while Poliwrath only fits on very select teams). As a bulky Water-type, this thing is completely and utterly overshadowed by the other defensive Water-types. Seriously, if your key niches are either completely overshadowed by other 'mons (Mirror Coat, Haze, phazing) or are counteracted by the requirements being detrimental to the user (Marvel Scale in combination with a hatred of status) that is a pretty big sign.

Also I like the fact that you have neglected the reason it was ever even used in OU ever (i.e. its key niche): Competitive. IIRC, Milotic was ranked in mid XY due to its Competitive set, and that very quickly got unranked due to people realising that it was complete ass due to just how reliant it was on the boost and how disappointing its speed tier was for a primarily offensive 'mon (seriously, its SpA and Spe were at a point where it couldn't afford to run any bulk investment (i.e. it had to run max SpA/Spe to have any impact), making its otherwise good bulk pretty pointless). It had the key flaws of Bisharp without most of said Pokemon's redeming features (STAB 80 BP priority, STAB Knock Off ability to force 50:50s etc.) and this severely cripples its ability to function effectively.

In a nutshell, Milotic is pretty awful.

Suicune does not get reliable recovery. Have you used milotic, tho, or just theorymonning on the "lel it sucks" bandwagon? Jw

I neglected to mention competitive because competitive is not a good set, perhaps? Why it was ranked in xy is irrelevant. for example, talonflame liked to use a band. Now it likes to use swords dance. I would appreciate if someone would respond to something that I actually said rather than saying "it sucks lol" or "let me talk about alomomola instead" or "you /didn't/ talk about this". I quite clearly outlined a niche that I believe it has (and even provided a replay of both things in action), so I'm not sure why every post is commenting on completely different things.

 

[thesecondbest]

Yeah mew definitely belongs in A, it has for a long time. I nommed it multiple times before now, but it still hasn't moved. It performs every role well and is the ultimate lure. I don't know what more is needed to be higher in the ranks than everything mew possesses.

 

[Alfalfa]

While Mew is capable of luring a lot of Pokemon and KOing them due to its vast movepool, the thing is, surprise is literally the only thing going for it. Aside from the surprise factor, offensive Mew sets are flat-up ass and easy to overwhelm. If If I wanted to use a lure, I would use a Pokemon that possesses enough offensive utility to make a set relatively usable without the era of surprise being factored in - think Nasty Plot + Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire Celebi (for more offensive teams, of course), Natural Gift Azumarill, Calm Mind + Focus Blast Clefable (though Thunder Wave is really nice to have at the moment), and Wild Charge Diggersby, all of which possess enough offensive utility to not be dead weight if the lure is exposed before it is supposed to work.

 

[Vert]

milotic has no business to be in c rank. i've used and seen this thing in action, and its way to passive, an inferior alomomola. you talk about how it gets mirror coat, but not only can alomomola use it too (and better because it has regenerator, so its not a one time move), it also provides much more to the team utility wise in wish. you talk about how statusing milotic is a bad idea, but what kind of defensive presence is going to like status? burn, toxic, and paralysis all cripple milotic. you can say whatever you want like haze or ice beam, but at the end of the day, you really have to see that you have so many better options out there and this thing probably can't be even compared to the other 'mons anywhere in c rank.

i would be fine with e or d, but c/c-? i think that's a little too far MikeDawg

 

[BlueLobster]

While Mew is capable of luring a lot of Pokemon and KOing them due to its vast movepool, the thing is, surprise is literally the only thing going for it. Aside from the surprise factor, offensive Mew sets are flat-up ass and easy to overwhelm. If If I wanted to use a lure, I would use a Pokemon that possesses enough offensive utility to make a set relatively usable without the era of surprise being factored in - think Nasty Plot + Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire Celebi (for more offensive teams, of course), Natural Gift Azumarill, Calm Mind + Focus Blast Clefable (though Thunder Wave is really nice to have at the moment), and Wild Charge Diggersby, all of which possess enough offensive utility to not be dead weight if the lure is exposed before it is supposed to work.

Did you seriously just say Mew doesn't have enough offensive firepower, then mention NP Celebi? You are aware Mew can run that too? Mew has acess to boosting moves to increase it's offensive firepoweror can opt to use different support options instead, just like Celebi, although Mew has better offensive options (hence why Celebi lures use HP Fire while Mew has fire blast in it's place).

 

[MikeDawg]

milotic has no business to be in c rank. i've used and seen this thing in action, and its way to passive, an inferior alomomola. you talk about how it gets mirror coat, but not only can alomomola use it too (and better because it has regenerator, so its not a one time move), it also provides much more to the team utility wise in wish. you talk about how statusing milotic is a bad idea, but what kind of defensive presence is going to like status? burn, toxic, and paralysis all cripple milotic. you can say whatever you want like haze or ice beam, but at the end of the day, you really have to see that you have so many better options out there and this thing probably can't be even compared to the other 'mons anywhere in c rank.

i would be fine with e or d, but c/c-? i think that's a little too far MikeDawg

Did you really just call milotic too passive in the same sentence that you praised alomomola?

Between dragon tail or ice beam or haze and scald + 100attack, it isn't getting set up on by much of anything that isn't named sub dd gyarados.

Burn toxic twave all cripple any other defensive Mon even worse. Hence why you don't run flame orb milotic, but it can absorb scald very well if need be. Saying that marvel scale is anything but a perk is stupid

The point is that Alomomola doesn't have the spdef to tank the things that milotic can tank. Regenerator isn't a huge deal when milotic is fast enough to heal up on most defensive mons even after taking a life orb thunderbolt. The nom isn't about alo, it's about milotic, but milotic is most definitely a superior user of mirror coat which, again, is the whole point.

The only reason milotic never found itself on the rankings is because it was outclassed. However, this is a niche that milotic has all of the tools to pull off well, similar to how shaymin is ranked solely due to seed flare and roserade is ranked solely due to the spikes and frosslass is ranked solely because it is a ghost-type-spiker-with-destiny-bond.

There isn't much more that I can say about it bar throwing in some more replays, so take the nom as you will.

...

This post says nothing about mirror coat, which is strange since it is my primary argument from the start (not whether or not it is set up bait?). For an example of milotic doing something that another bulky water can't, see: the replay that I provided. There's some (good) arguments that someone can use against milotic. For example: even with the niche of mirror coating, it often doesn't compress roles enough like a rapid spin mon, etc. can do, making it harder to fit into a team (which is something that you would gather from actually using it). Then I would say: "fair point, but that is why it is in D as opposed to Starmie or Slowbro being significantly higher as more splashable mons. It can also somewhat circumvent this with clever playing by luring and eliminating mons like thundurus, reducing your need to run a grass type, thus, freeing up more teamspace" rather than "that is not what I argued...".

Not much else I can say other than your condescension is very convincing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[thesecondbest]

While Mew is capable of luring a lot of Pokemon and KOing them due to its vast movepool, the thing is, surprise is literally the only thing going for it. Aside from the surprise factor, offensive Mew sets are flat-up ass and easy to overwhelm. If If I wanted to use a lure, I would use a Pokemon that possesses enough offensive utility to make a set relatively usable without the era of surprise being factored in - think Nasty Plot + Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire Celebi (for more offensive teams, of course), Natural Gift Azumarill, Calm Mind + Focus Blast Clefable (though Thunder Wave is really nice to have at the moment), and Wild Charge Diggersby, all of which possess enough offensive utility to not be dead weight if the lure is exposed before it is supposed to work.

Except it is better than celebi in every way besides no grass stab (although it still beats azu with wow) and is bulkier than all the others. It can lure everything and it has priority. It's the best lure anywhere.

 

[Vert]

Did you really just call milotic too passive in the same sentence that you praised alomomola?

Between dragon tail or ice beam or haze and scald + 100attack, it isn't getting set up on by much of anything that isn't named sub dd gyarados.

Burn toxic twave all cripple any other defensive Mon even worse. Hence why you don't run flame orb milotic, but it can absorb scald very well if need be.

The point is that Alomomola doesn't have the spdef to tank the things that milotic can tank. Regenerator isn't a huge deal when milotic is fast enough to heal up on most defensive mons even after taking a life orb thunderbolt. The nom isn't about alo, it's about milotic, but milotic is most definitely a superior user of mirror coat which, again, is the whole point.

The only reason milotic never found itself on the rankings is because it was outclassed. However, this is a niche that milotic has all of the tools to pull off well, similar to how shaymin is ranked solely due to seed flare and roserade is ranked solely due to the spikes and frosslass is ranked solely because it is a ghost-type-spiker-with-destiny-bond.

i never praised alomomola lol. i don't know why i would use milotic not just over alomomola, but the other bulky waters (like gamer boy said) out there specifically slowbro which isn't set up bait, your primary argument. alomomola can absorb scald? not to mention suicune, slowbro, manaphy, starmie...absorbing scald is nothing when we have so many absorbers. you talk about special defense yet there is another underrated 'mon slowking which has dragon tail, thunder wave, and a much wider movepool. you talk about niche? it barely has a niche and shaymin and froslass niche's are so much stronger than milotic. and on top of this, you want it to be in c/c- rank? pathetic

you can be a milotic fanboy all you want, idc but these are the facts plain and simple. no reason to argue anymore with people who just want to increase their postcount

 

[dream light]

Mew to A in my opinion i mean sure base 100 atk and sptak isn't great but that means nothing when essentially you can slap it on any team and fit it to whatever you need you can't counter mew because it has a coverage move for anything i mean it 2hkos everything in the meta with certain attacks and is the biggest 4 move slot syndrome in the game


It can run most items and be effective can be offensive defensive cleric sweeper baton passer (dick move) wallbreaker or anti meta it has great bulk but it's lack of great typing keeps it back but nothing can be 100% safe switching in on a mew


A reliable check to scizor as it ohkos with fire blast with ebelt and can easily get 2 or 3 kills by suprising your oponent with obscure coverage moves.


Overall it deserves to be moved up because it preforms every roll in the meta game well, but not higher because it isn't the best at every roll.

Hey, just chiming in here because I don't think some of the assertions made here are quite accurate.

Mew is not really a 'mon that can be just slapped onto every team as you suggest. Given the perennial presence of Weavile and TTar now as well as Hoopa, Mew doesn't really like the current meta that much. It might barely 2HKO everything in the meta but so do Kube, HoopaU, Manaphy after TG and the like. They have much more potential power and sweeping capability in Manaphy's case. Its best set pre-ORAS was Taunt / Knock Off / Willo / Soft-Boiled or something along those lines to break common stall cores, which if anything has been worsened because Mega Sableye dumps all over it. Variety of roles would in theory be a huge benefit to its viability but tbh when its best set was nerfed immensely and its secondary uses are straight outclassed by the prior mons I don't see why it should be rising at all. You can't really splash Mew onto HO without stacking Weavile weaknesses. On slower/fatter teams or if it's running less than 284 Speed, it gets roflstomped by HoopaU. But if it's running that much speed, then it won't be around for very long. Its typing is a liability and the 4MSS seriously hurts it when it desperately needs x move to break past certain cores (for example, on a potential NP set Mew wants a mix of Psychic / Fire Blast / Ice Beam / NP / Earth Power / tbolt lol) Without one of those Mew suffers against standard balance builds badly and still gets tossed by AVest Torn-T which it loses to 1v1. Certainly, you can adapt around its set with your team builds but the main question in my mind is: Why? Why bother setting up with Mew when Manaphy breaks balance and some stall over its knees (if it had them), or Kube which easily 2HKOs all of Slowbro / Venusaur / Heatran and has a ridiculous immediate Ice Beam?

Offensive Mew's main niche would seem to be surprise value. If we ranked entirely on surprise value then dual mega teams (CharY + Venusaur) would have higher rankings in their normal forms. Mew needs Life Orb on offensive sets, which lose to faster SE threats like ScarfTar, Gengar, Weavile, and even Zam to some extent.

It's not really that effective of a baton passer either because while it is able to pass sub + NP / SD, unlike Celebi it doesn't really tank Water moves. So what is it passing on that it can switch in on as well? Celebi has utility in checking Waters (Keldeo) to a limited extent with Giga Drain. Mew...does what exactly to pass stuff? Get walled by half of the tier with mono-Psychic coverage while not being able to switch in against much? lol

It can check Scizor at full, I'll give it that. In a game situation though you're likely to not keep Mew at full health and once it gets one KO your opponent will know for sure that it's an offensive variant. Then they bring in their Dark/Ghost STAB and Mew dies. It's not an effective wall right now and it's frankly badly outclassed as a Defogger which loses to Sableye, it's not even that great as an SR user (of which there are better options that perform other utility) and it's not fast.

if tl;dr, nothing has changed to justify a Mew rise. Performing multiple roles badly in comparison to other mons is not a reason to move up a rank.

 

[BlueLobster]

Hey, just chiming in here because I don't think some of the assertions made here are quite accurate.

Mew is not really a 'mon that can be just slapped onto every team as you suggest. Given the perennial presence of Weavile and TTar now as well as Hoopa, Mew doesn't really like the current meta that much. It might barely 2HKO everything in the meta but so do Kube, HoopaU, Manaphy after TG and the like. They have much more potential power and sweeping capability in Manaphy's case. Its best set pre-ORAS was Taunt / Knock Off / Willo / Soft-Boiled or something along those lines to break common stall cores, which if anything has been worsened because Mega Sableye dumps all over it. Variety of roles would in theory be a huge benefit to its viability but tbh when its best set was nerfed immensely and its secondary uses are straight outclassed by the prior mons I don't see why it should be rising at all. You can't really splash Mew onto HO without stacking Weavile weaknesses. On slower/fatter teams or if it's running less than 284 Speed, it gets roflstomped by HoopaU. But if it's running that much speed, then it won't be around for very long. Its typing is a liability and the 4MSS seriously hurts it when it desperately needs x move to break past certain cores (for example, on a potential NP set Mew wants a mix of Psychic / Fire Blast / Ice Beam / NP / Earth Power / tbolt lol) Without one of those Mew suffers against standard balance builds badly and still gets tossed by AVest Torn-T which it loses to 1v1. Certainly, you can adapt around its set with your team builds but the main question in my mind is: Why? Why bother setting up with Mew when Manaphy breaks balance and some stall over its knees (if it had them), or Kube which easily 2HKOs all of Slowbro / Venusaur / Heatran and has a ridiculous immediate Ice Beam?

Offensive Mew's main niche would seem to be surprise value. If we ranked entirely on surprise value then dual mega teams (CharY + Venusaur) would have higher rankings in their normal forms. Mew needs Life Orb on offensive sets, which lose to faster SE threats like ScarfTar, Gengar, Weavile, and even Zam to some extent.

It's not really that effective of a baton passer either because while it is able to pass sub + NP / SD, unlike Celebi it doesn't really tank Water moves. So what is it passing on that it can switch in on as well? Celebi has utility in checking Waters (Keldeo) to a limited extent with Giga Drain. Mew...does what exactly to pass stuff? Get walled by half of the tier with mono-Psychic coverage while not being able to switch in against much? lol

It can check Scizor at full, I'll give it that. In a game situation though you're likely to not keep Mew at full health and once it gets one KO your opponent will know for sure that it's an offensive variant. Then they bring in their Dark/Ghost STAB and Mew dies. It's not an effective wall right now and it's frankly badly outclassed as a Defogger which loses to Sableye, it's not even that great as an SR user (of which there are better options that perform other utility) and it's not fast.

if tl;dr, nothing has changed to justify a Mew rise. Performing multiple roles badly in comparison to other mons is not a reason to move up a rank.

I don't really care if Mew moves up or not, but I feel you're really underestimating Mew's bulk. Even uninvested, it can easily tank a strong non SE hit and even some weak SE ones, I can't calc now as on my phone but it can afford to run quite alot of speed and still tank quite alot, so saying it isn't staying around long if it creeps Hoopa-U is inaccurate (also, does Hoopa even run max spe?), although Hoopa obviously disadvantages it, and it would prefer not having to creep it. If it runs a SD/NP + BP set like Celebi, it can setup on alot of the stuff Celebi can, only failing to setup on offensive waters (and Azu isn't staying in for WoW risk anyway), because it has a great amount of bulk. It should also be noted for other sets the majority of pursuit trappers and knock off users fear a WoW from it's standard set, and it outspeeds Bish and TTar unless they run a scarf, so it's crappy typing isn't as much of a liability as it seems.

Overall, I don't see a reason for it to rise, as nothing's imprpved for it, although it's better than Celebi, who really needs to drop. Celebi's niches over Mew is limited to grass STAB, leech seed and a water resist, while also gaining a flying, fire and poison weakness. Considering how much more Mew has at it's disposal, I don't think of that as enough to keep them equal in viability.

 

[dream light]

I don't really care if Mew moves up or not, but I feel you're really underestimating Mew's bulk. Even uninvested, it can easily tank a strong non SE hit and even some weak SE ones, I can't calc now as on my phone but it can afford to run quite alot of speed and still tank quite alot, so saying it isn't staying around long if it creeps Hoopa-U is inaccurate (also, does Hoopa even run max spe?), although Hoopa obviously disadvantages it, and it would prefer not having to creep it. If it runs a SD/NP + BP set like Celebi, it can setup on alot of the stuff Celebi can, only failing to setup on offensive waters (and Azu isn't staying in for WoW risk anyway), because it has a great amount of bulk. It should also be noted for other sets the majority of pursuit trappers and knock off users fear a WoW from it's standard set, and it outspeeds Bish and TTar unless they run a scarf, so it's crappy typing isn't as much of a liability as it seems.

Overall, I don't see a reason for it to rise, as nothing's imprpved for it, although it's better than Celebi, who really needs to drop. Celebi's niches over Mew is limited to grass STAB, leech seed and a water resist, while also gaining a flying, fire and poison weakness. Considering how much more Mew has at it's disposal, I don't think of that as enough to keep them equal in viability.

I do see what you mean but consider the scenarios in which that would be relevant. If it's a sweeper it's not tanking two strong hits, and if it's a stallbreaker then it can't perform its job against Mega Sableye stall. Let's assume a simplistic spread of 144 HP / 252 SAtk / 112 Spe Modest, which outspeeds Jolly Sharp, Ada/Modest Alt, DNite, and modern RockyChomp, which is a decent amount of speed and bulk. Relevant strong attacks against that spread look something like:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 277-328 (73.2 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 148 HP / 0 Def Mew: 270-318 (71.4 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 268-316 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 195-231 (51.5 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scald also works here given the high chance to burn, which is pretty crucial.

That's not a tank by any means. It's not that hard to get 30ish% against an offensive Mew before switching into your designated check or pivoting around. Hoopa doesn't actually need to creep it given that it has 130 base SDef (same as Latias) and Mew isn't KO'ing with a neutral move even at +2. TBH, even if it tanks the hit what is it going to do back without a boost? It can Pass an NP or SD I guess but it's really not that viable when it doesn't do that much else.

Also I'd say that we can't undersell Celebi's water resistance. A near-guaranteed switchin to Keldeo is quite valuable, as well as Azu bar Knock Off, Slowbro bc Celebi dgaf about Scald/Thunder Wave, and friends. Natural Cure gives it another niche as a status absorber and it can fit on FWG cores.

 

[i ran out of names]

Hey, just chiming in here because I don't think some of the assertions made here are quite accurate.

Mew is not really a 'mon that can be just slapped onto every team as you suggest. Given the perennial presence of Weavile and TTar now as well as Hoopa, Mew doesn't really like the current meta that much. It might barely 2HKO everything in the meta but so do Kube, HoopaU, Manaphy after TG and the like. They have much more potential power and sweeping capability in Manaphy's case. Its best set pre-ORAS was Taunt / Knock Off / Willo / Soft-Boiled or something along those lines to break common stall cores, which if anything has been worsened because Mega Sableye dumps all over it. Variety of roles would in theory be a huge benefit to its viability but tbh when its best set was nerfed immensely and its secondary uses are straight outclassed by the prior mons I don't see why it should be rising at all. You can't really splash Mew onto HO without stacking Weavile weaknesses. On slower/fatter teams or if it's running less than 284 Speed, it gets roflstomped by HoopaU. But if it's running that much speed, then it won't be around for very long. Its typing is a liability and the 4MSS seriously hurts it when it desperately needs x move to break past certain cores (for example, on a potential NP set Mew wants a mix of Psychic / Fire Blast / Ice Beam / NP / Earth Power / tbolt lol) Without one of those Mew suffers against standard balance builds badly and still gets tossed by AVest Torn-T which it loses to 1v1. Certainly, you can adapt around its set with your team builds but the main question in my mind is: Why? Why bother setting up with Mew when Manaphy breaks balance and some stall over its knees (if it had them), or Kube which easily 2HKOs all of Slowbro / Venusaur / Heatran and has a ridiculous immediate Ice Beam?

Offensive Mew's main niche would seem to be surprise value. If we ranked entirely on surprise value then dual mega teams (CharY + Venusaur) would have higher rankings in their normal forms. Mew needs Life Orb on offensive sets, which lose to faster SE threats like ScarfTar, Gengar, Weavile, and even Zam to some extent.

It's not really that effective of a baton passer either because while it is able to pass sub + NP / SD, unlike Celebi it doesn't really tank Water moves. So what is it passing on that it can switch in on as well? Celebi has utility in checking Waters (Keldeo) to a limited extent with Giga Drain. Mew...does what exactly to pass stuff? Get walled by half of the tier with mono-Psychic coverage while not being able to switch in against much? lol

It can check Scizor at full, I'll give it that. In a game situation though you're likely to not keep Mew at full health and once it gets one KO your opponent will know for sure that it's an offensive variant. Then they bring in their Dark/Ghost STAB and Mew dies. It's not an effective wall right now and it's frankly badly outclassed as a Defogger which loses to Sableye, it's not even that great as an SR user (of which there are better options that perform other utility) and it's not fast.

if tl;dr, nothing has changed to justify a Mew rise. Performing multiple roles badly in comparison to other mons is not a reason to move up a rank.

Have you ever used a mew? Mew takes about 30-35% from a mega-scizor's bp can pass both of those stats and has access to taunt unlike celebi and think about it like this if i have a weakness to scizor i run fire blast if i have a weakness to m-sableye i run dazzling gleam and 2hko it can counter my teams weaknesses with mew and alow my sweeper to have a much better time with said pokemon out of the way

In terms of splash-ability if i need a nasty plot sweeper with bolt beam and focus blast to hit whatever, I can do that nothing else can do said niche of being able to run every set with reliable recovery, strong moves, access to all boosting moves and the factor it plays in the actual game because when most people see mew they think defogger or ebelt anti meta while infact it could be scarf and ohko their lopunny that they thought would kill with return.

And about weavile and torn-t yeah their common and so is gengar but they can't switch in and it can beat weavile if it goes for pursuit but otherwise i switch because those pokemon you named have counters, I heard the argument about well this revenge kills it a revenge killer is only useful on a slow u-turn which you shouldn't switch into or if something dies.

The thing can be built to counter almost every pokemon and here are calcs below to prove how much damage it can do with 1 move set.


0 Atk Expert Belt Mew Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 413-490 (151.8 - 180.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 282-332 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Expert Belt Mew Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Chansey: 706-830 (109.9 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Mew Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 446-528 (130 - 153.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 99-117 (29 - 34.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Mew Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 518-614 (162.3 - 192.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 230-272 (67.4 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Mew Ice Beam vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 206-245 (67.1 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Mew Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 170-202 (55.9 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mew Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 186-218 (54.5 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Mew Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 245-290 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Expert Belt Mew Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 242-286 (80.3 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Can kill after a spike
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Expert Belt Mew Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 216-257 (79.7 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 172-204 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Can kill after a spike

 

[AM]

Mew hasn't improved. Why would you raise it up a rank for some niche offensive sets that are being talked out of the ass with theorymon and another ticket to The Great Wall of Calcs? It's fine in A-.

 

[Srn]

Well quite a few noms have popped up so lets talk.
Mega pidgeot

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nah.
It's kinda nice but base 121 speed isn't enough for me. Fast megas in my head are mega lop, mane, bee, scept, zam, and aero. These outpace everything that isn't mega and isn't holding a scarf. But pidgeot does not outpace weavile or torn-t, two very important threats.
In conjunction with the somewhat dissappointing speed, its not that strong either. Hurricane is really powerful and shit, but its still weaker than mega lopunny hjk and no where close to mega zam psychic. It's just kinda...mediocre in every aspect.

But on the other hand u got shit like mega bee which is fast and strong, and good at what it does. Nothing else in the tier is as fast as it is and kills fairies, all while grabbing momentum and forcing grounds in. Mega Garchomp is jesus and you all know i've pushed that to hell and back, but tl; dr bulky af and SD is unwallable yay. Mega pidgeot doesn't seem to me like it should be higher than these.

Mega aero

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I initially thought it should stay where it is because it's kinda lacking in natural power. It relies on its coverage to get past anything bulky, but I honestly wouldnt mind it rising because its one of the few mons that can really take advantage of torn-t's presence and not give a fuck about it. Offense needs to do its best to not give aero switch-ins but torn-t is a free one, making it a liability when facing aero, which is huge because its often used b/c its thought to have no opportunity cost or w/e.
Every mon has an opportunity cost bc of the extra weaknesses it brings to a team imo but that's not relevant to this nom.
That and a more offensive meta thanks to hoopa helps aero too. I wouldn't mind a raise

milotic

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If mirror coat is the reason why its being nommed up, it should stay down lol. And if its not it should stay unranked.
Mikedawg says that its not a one-time thing because it can heal up on slower defensive mons, but what kind of team is really gonna be carrying defensive shit passive enough for milotic to heal on safely AND something that forces milotic to mirror coat. It's really quite rare, which is why

Regenerator isn't a huge deal

is completely wrong. (and a hilarious statement in general)

you need regen vs offensive teams to come back and mirror coat shit again, making alomo far better. Also
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 348-410 (65.2 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 424-502 (79.5 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The point is that Alomomola doesn't have the spdef to tank the things that milotic can tank.

is completely wrong.
even with zero defensive investment with milotic gettin max investment:
252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Alomomola: 331-391 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 234-277 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So you're dead wrong there too lol. Not only does alomo have enough sdef to tank the shit milotic does, it also has wish to heal up teammates, regenerator to mirror coat again vs offense (something milotic can't do), and still be able to check physical threats nearly as good as a milotic with full investment

"hur dur alomo is passive as hell did you forget noob!"

If you wanted a bulky water that isn't passive and prevents set up, slowbro with scald and t-wave does that perfectly fine. Even slowking can tank the special hits if you want that.

I also don't like the argument of you "luring electrics" with milotic "reducing the need for grass, etc" because if you then want to assume thundurus will be lured in and die, your bulky water will also not be doing its job against an offensive team. So you then need something else to check the threats that milotic should've checked. And that requires you to be redundant, making you much weaker to the shit you "lure" in because your way of beating a thundurus is a water type that doesn't switch in for shit. So then you have to go through the trouble of running actual checks to everything that decimates your bulky water, except you have to work under the assumption that your bulky water will be dead as well.
This doesn't apply to alomo because the "regenerator that isn't a huge deal" will get it back to a reasonable amount of hp and let it do its actual job.

So building around this thing seems annoying already can't wait to use the set :O

I guess competitive can punish intimidate? And other bulky waters have the same exact matchup against intimidate users? And the only intimidate user that actually switches in on it (mega manectric) kills it anyway? Yup not enough to put it over other waters.

"hur dur it can switch into lati it punishes defog!!!"
Well bisharp does that better and you're gonna have a fun time when lati uses CM.

At the end of the day this thing is a compression of an inferior mirror coater and a bulky water that isn't passive (which is all of them except alomo -_- because scald is broken), and this miniscule niche puts it nowhere near the likes of rotom-heat, goodra, or gourgiest-xl, which aren't outclassed (and aren't that bad)

Which brings me to another point i'd like to make.
Some of the better posters are parading around that "a pokemon shouldn't be nommed for its good traits, it should be nommed for why it is better now than before." But that logic only works under the assumption that the rankings are initially accurate. And they are for B+ and over i'd say.

Anything below that, i think it's safe to say the rankings are inaccurate, simply because we just haven't used a lot of these things, and we need to use them (correctly) to understand more about their placement. So lets keep in mind that for lower rankings "this mon is good b/c" noms aren't completely trash.

 

[i ran out of names]

Mew hasn't improved. Why would you raise it up a rank for some niche offensive sets that are being talked out of the ass with theorymon and another ticket to The Great Wall of Calcs? It's fine in A-.

I personally think it always should have been A i mean no disrespect but i started to use mew more and I started to realize how good it can be if played right and i think that it doesn't ever drop because it can be a partner to anything with any lure set i have personally used mew on quite a few teams latley and have changed the set depending on what it's weak to it has some great bulk and the best coverage with decent speed and some good offensive stats it takes out quite a few of the metas biggest threats but in the end it's just an opinion sorry if I came off a little rude but still I believe it's versatility to do anything is rank A.

 

[BlazeLatias]

On mobile so I wanted to say my thoughts on the mega Aerodactyal-mega nom

I can honestly see Aerodactyal-mega rising the high speed stat combined with the fact offence is increasing in usage makes mega aero a huge threat to these teams outspeeding the entire unboosted meta. I also agree with srn on how it's a mon that makes torn a liability as you end up losing momentum. Having faced my share of mega aero it's safe to say you don't want this thing switching in getting a free hit on you. The lack of immediate power is annoying but aero has fantastic overall coverage which kind of makes up for it. Definitely should rise with the meta current state.

 

[jordanthejq12]

Have you ever used a mew? Mew takes about 30-35% from a mega-scizor's bp can pass both of those stats and has access to taunt unlike celebi and think about it like this if i have a weakness to scizor i run fire blast if i have a weakness to m-sableye i run dazzling gleam and 2hko it can counter my teams weaknesses with mew and alow my sweeper to have a much better time with said pokemon out of the way

In terms of splash-ability if i need a nasty plot sweeper with bolt beam and focus blast to hit whatever, I can do that nothing else can do said niche of being able to run every set with reliable recovery, strong moves, access to all boosting moves and the factor it plays in the actual game because when most people see mew they think defogger or ebelt anti meta while infact it could be scarf and ohko their lopunny that they thought would kill with return.

And about weavile and torn-t yeah their common and so is gengar but they can't switch in and it can beat weavile if it goes for pursuit but otherwise i switch because those pokemon you named have counters, I heard the argument about well this revenge kills it a revenge killer is only useful on a slow u-turn which you shouldn't switch into or if something dies.

The thing can be built to counter almost every pokemon and here are calcs below to prove how much damage it can do with 1 move set.


0 Atk Expert Belt Mew Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 413-490 (151.8 - 180.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 282-332 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Expert Belt Mew Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Chansey: 706-830 (109.9 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Mew Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 446-528 (130 - 153.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 99-117 (29 - 34.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Mew Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 518-614 (162.3 - 192.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 230-272 (67.4 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Mew Ice Beam vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 206-245 (67.1 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Mew Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 170-202 (55.9 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mew Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 186-218 (54.5 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Expert Belt Mew Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 245-290 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Expert Belt Mew Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 242-286 (80.3 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Can kill after a spike
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Expert Belt Mew Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 216-257 (79.7 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 172-204 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Can kill after a spike

Mew fits your needs well. That's wonderful--nobody's doubting its versatility. Problem is, once you've whooped somebody the cat's out of the bag, and there's plenty capable of revenging Mew--especially if it doesn't OHKO, as several of these calcs are not. In fact, three of your four one-shots are against 4x weaknesses and the fourth is against Chansey, which would be a surprise, but Chansey still has the physical bulk of a paper towel.

Mew's offensive capabilities are certainly there, but there are many other offensive Psychics, and they don't necessarily even need a stellar movepool to succeed.

 

[Aquarium1]

Chandelure for D - Unranked
Right now chandelure is outclassed in every role its has in the current meta. Chandelure had a pretty decent niche in xy as a stall breaker as its unique typing along with taunt allowed it to check clefable, heatran, and charizard-y. However in the current meta it isn't as reliable. Clefable commonly runs t-wave now so it can't just switch in wall it like it once did and heatran has so many common option it can run to beat chandelure, toxic on the switch, earthpower, and ancient power, thats its fails reliable wall it. Chandelure faces competition from Victini which can do the same thing but has better bulk and typing which allows it to check mega medicham and mega gardevoir. Offensively chandelure suffers from a multitude of problems. Its very slow by ORAS ou standard, at only base 80 speed, so its force to run a choice scarf in order to be effective against offense which can easily be tank advantage and if you decide to run a choice spec use it as a wall breaker it still faces competition from other fire type wall breaker such as victini, Charizard, and talonflame which do the job better. Overall chandelure is a relic from xy meta game that should be removed.
tl;dr: chandelure outclassed and should be removed

 

[Aquarium1]

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 234-276 (70.4 - 83.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Torn is not a counter but with hoopa added I feel like chandalure lost a good deal of viability because hoopa while more frail on the physical side simply hits harder has more special bulk and has a much better movepool and is overall simpply much better but hey if you really hate stall run both i guess :]

I guess torn isn't excatly a counter. When I was using chandelure only doing around 60% so I'll make the assumption that I was ran into people running insanely balky tornadus and edit my post to exclude tornadus

 

[i ran out of names]

I guess torn isn't excatly a counter. When I was using chandelure only doing around 60% so I'll make the assumption that I was ran into people running insanely balky tornadus and edit my post to exclude tornadus

i was using specs and that was minimal bulk investment the other set is still a 2hko so either way you shouldn't switch a torn into a chandalure but i support your though it is king of outclassed in everyway

 

[That Grammar Terrorist]

Suicune does not get reliable recovery. Have you used milotic, tho, or just theorymonning on the "lel it sucks" bandwagon? Jw

I neglected to mention competitive because competitive is not a good set, perhaps? Why it was ranked in xy is irrelevant. for example, talonflame liked to use a band. Now it likes to use swords dance. I would appreciate if someone would respond to something that I actually said rather than saying "it sucks lol" or "let me talk about alomomola instead" or "you /didn't/ talk about this". I quite clearly outlined a niche that I believe it has (and even provided a replay of both things in action), so I'm not sure why every post is commenting on completely different things.

There is a problem with your Talonflame counterexample. Just because Talonflame now usually uses swords dance, doesn't mean that the choice band set is inviable, it's still a perfectly usable set. It may have fallen out of usage and is relatively obscure, but it's still viable.

Now, you did state a niche that it has, but the reason we are bringing up Alomomola in lieu of it is because we do not rank pokemon that are completely and utterly outclassed, factoring the opportunity cost.

If you look back before Landorus-I was Bandorused, you'll notice that Nidoking was not ranked in D, why? Because Landorus-I completely outclassed it in virtually every way, shape, and form. Neither used up a mega slot, so you cannot really bring up the opportunity cost argument (Hence why Sylveon's specs set is still ranked despite Mega Gardevoir being around), the only real opportunity cost to using Landorus-I was that you couldn't use Landorus-T on the same team, but they have no synergy together, so no one in their right mind would use them on the same team.

How does this pertain to your Milotic argument? Well, you said it yourself, the "competitive [set] is not a good set" meaning that the only real reason it could be ranked is because of its defensive set, which is completely and utterly outclassed by many other bulky water types, such as Slowbro, Slowking, etc. The mirror coat set you mentioned is still done better by Alomomola thanks to regenerator and its gargantuan HP stat and relatively lower Sp. Defense. Even Wobbuffet can do it better because of Shadow Tag and Encore.

Now, I still doubt that I convinced you otherwise, but if you're still intent on nominating Milotic, why don't you provide us with some replays as to why it works and proof that in one of those replays that whatever Milotic did couldn't have been done better by Slowbro, Slowking, Alomomola, Quagsire, etc.

I'm not jumping on the "it sucks" bandwagon... I'm just convinced that it sucks, but if you can convince me otherwise, I'd be all ears.

Also, Alomomola C+ -> C- or D for reasons listed.

What argument did you make for Alomomola going down anyway? If anything, your arguments can be applied to raising Alomomola. You only oversold Milotic's usability, but didn't make any mention as to why Alomomola isn't worthy of C+.

 

[micahclay]

Milotic is outclassed in a multitude of ways by many different water types in OU. Manaphy has a much better offensive presence, and can even function as a status absorber. Suicune is a much better status absorber (and a better phaser if it has roar). It can also function as a late game wincon, whereas Milotic does not have much of an offensive presence (if any). Rotom-W and Alomomola function as better pivots, by virtue of will-o-wisp + volt switch + typing or wish passing + regenerator, respectively. The one favorable trait that it has over these is a single turn, reliable recovery (although even Rotom-W has pain split, and Alomomola has wish passing). However, even something like Jellicent can do this better, as it can use status, has recover, and it has the added benefit of being able to spin block, as well, especially considering it's typing is somewhat advantageous against the two premier OU spinners. By the way, I'm not arguing for a Jellicent rise or anything, I just wanted to point out how thoroughly Milotic is outclassed in every way. There is no bulky water type in ORAS OU that should ever be replaced by Milotic, as everything does even Milotic's best roles better than it does. It definitely does not belong anywhere near the C-rank, and I would be hard press to even put it in D-rank with Jellicent. At most it should be E-rank, if not unranked.

 

[bludz]

I'm surprised this discussion wasn't killed pages ago. You aren't supposed to make a nomination for an unranked mon in the thread any more but PM it. I guess AM stepped down so there's no recipient any more, but I think the idea still stands just based on the fact that most of the worst nominations have always been those that were unranked. If I'm not mistaken then Milotic might have been blacklisted at one point. Either way I think most of the people speaking here probably haven't even used it (I know I haven't). You gotta know that ranking guys aren't the types to just run standard things all the time so they've played around with the more niche mons than any of us and they have a stronger understanding in general of the viability of things.

Now I'm not saying we should never make nominations of unranked mons but the idea is to discuss with a VR member first. Maybe some of them will be mad at me if this leads to them getting PMs lol but lets be real that most of the unranked noms are just really bad and we need a filter. The past 2 pages have had a lot of discussion about Milotic which even if it deserves to be ranked doesn't deserve to be such a hot topic. Unless you have a really solid case for a pokemon to become ranked - you know, one with some quality replays (appreciate that you actually posted one MikeDawg since many people never even did but Alomomola would have definitely achieved a very good result (megaman KO) in that 1/5 of a game we just watched) - then all that happens is we get a bunch of people theorymoning and a few who have actually used the mon leading to a pretty disjointed discussion (in this case even among those who have used it).