ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

[Raseri]

+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Yveltal: 440-522 (96.4 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

[Fireburn]

Since user virgin apparently cannot take the hint from multiple people that Assault Vest Yveltal is neither 1) a newly proposed technology nor 2) a good set, I hope his ban will give him awhile to think about it.

Also please do not discuss Assault Vest Yveltal anymore or you might also be joining the Ubers Moderator Naughty List this Christmas.

 

[Sweep]

While I'm not Sweep, I believe he is infracting you more for your argumentative and, quite frankly, rather rude nature. If you had presented your opinions about AV Yveltal in a more pleasant manner, I'm almost certain that he would not be as inclined to hand out an infraction, regardless of the terrible nature of the set.

Nah, I would have infracted him regardless, for the same reason I would have infracted someone for repeatedly advocating Choice Band Moltres. We're supposed to infract for repeated instances of cluelessness.

 

[Inspirited]

As for B mid, the only mons I would change right now are the first three. Blissey should be first due to its presence and function on a superstandard team (the only thing that keeps it B is its lack of spashability due to extreme passiveness). Because Aegislash can actually shut down xern pretty consistantly and pursuit prominent threats (as well as unconventional mons to wear them down). It is still stupid passive, but its utility helps it to be above the rest. Ferrothorn is only decent as a secondary water resist for pdon that can spike, but it has issues vs scald kyogre which limits its utility against a mon that isnt as splashable as other good mons. It can also spike on most other steels and non hp fire eons thankfully, but its utility is still limited more than Aegi and it has no standard team presenc to put itself on the same level as Blissey. MMX slightly outdoes Lucario due to Taunt and its ridiculous Speed before and after megaing while also checking ekiller in very specific scenarios (it still can do it though), but Lucarios differentiates by being able to switch into Toxic against stall, quad resist rocks, and SD. 4 mons, a good lava don check, and a Mega Luc will never be stall weak (unless someone finds a way to viably rig it with spikes). This isnt much of a niche since you can rig other mons to do this with a lil bit of opportunity cost, but luc is also a Xern revenge killer. This still isnt much, but still enough to keep it above the other two in B imo. I havent seen wob work since early oras where it was debunked pretty quickly. Zekrom is one I have been hearing of from user absdaddy, so i assume he has found sucess with its mixed set. I still dont see it as being very good right now, but I think it should fit on a team more than Wob at least. I will have to investigate that.

I am kinda washed up oras-wise, but from what I remember, I personally think B rank should be Bliss > Aegi > Ferro > MMX > Mega Luc > Zekrom > Wobbuffet with the two ones i am sorta unsure of being Wob and Zekrom.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

Should it be this high just because it works well on one team? Hack himself said that it so far has only worked on that one team, I'm sure there are others but I'm also sure those are very rare. Isn't how easy you can fit something on a team (if you use x team a lot because it's THAT good (eh) this also counts) like a huge factor in viability? Personally I'd say jirachi is probably just as viable as blissey, or at least close. Not a top-of-b-mid difference. Bliss should be kinda low imo

Also clefable shoudlnt end up as low as people might place it. Phys def is a great set because it walls latis and ekiller. It can also deal with some mence sets or at least live a hit and do a lot of damage, and other than that it does clefable things and yes it has the usual clef flaws. Shouldn't go too high, but it has more merit than some other stuff in b-.

I think these ranks would be way more accurate if we rose things like dragceus and darkceus and dropped mons like wobb that while good only work on very specific teams and should be ranked lower.

 

[hyw]

Jirachi's best niche to me has always been AV. Every time I use the leftovers set I'm just like, why don't I have Klefki instead? But the AV Jirachi set is one of the few switch ins to both Fairies like Xerneas and Mega Diancie AND Dragons like Latios and Kyurem-White (that lack SmashPass support anyway) while also having a trollish haxy offensive presence, parahxing with body slam, strongest pi face mexican strats, and preventing naughty mons like mega salance and rayquaza from setting up with ice punch (say bb 2 skymine 2 kek) #tb2tehdpp. In short, unlike Klefki, you take on a more offensive presence to get that crucial paralysis on stuff like Primal Groudon and Arceus-Ground while also taking hits from Xerneas and Latios 4deiz! And plus can klefki take on xern one on one and come out on top or absorb a epower from mdiancie to rape it back w an ironhead or uturn out from absorbing weak shit thrown from latios or beat fucking lugia one on one something the godly ekiller cant even do?! I DONT FUCKING THINK SO.

AV Jirachi needs a hard counter for Primal Groudon on the team, but aside from that obvious support (if u dnt hav a pdon answer on an uber team ur fkn retorded kys haha jk), I think this is the best Jirachi set and should be what he's ranked on. I would put that set at the top of B+

My point is that with the following set:

Jirachi @ Assault Vest
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Body Slam
- Ice Punch
- U-turn

, Jirachi can spread status liberally with a Body Slam even against Ground-types and Mega Diancie whilst absorbing hits from threatening Pokémon like Xerneas and Latios for days only to scout the opponent with a nifty U-Turn! Against more passive Pokémon that have been paralyzed, a potent STAB Iron Head will spell their doom, and if you wanna drop some Dragons/fish for some ebic frz hex, go for the Ice Punch. xD recommended use with Hex users like Mega Gengar, spread para abusers like turkeys, and partner in crime frz hex0r mother kangaroo for max troll value. User discresion advised for violent fits of ragequit as a result of your opponent's shrinkening of electronic penis getting bopped by a fucking AV JIRACHI LOL

 

[Aberforth]

Where did all this hype for random AV mons come from?

E: well jj... uh...

(hides)

 

[Spyro Chris]

AV Rachi... Et tu, Henri? ;-;

(PoMMan, he's obviously joking. "Yveltal's best niche to me has always been AV. Every time I use the life orb set I'm just like, why don't I have Darkrai instead?" Look at the wording, lol).

 

[Antacool]

AV Rachi is a based set, paired with a Wish FatMence and a dark resist
And also for AV Yveltal, at least it can beat the Legendary HOgia ;-;

 

[polop]

I think the assault vest joke is going on a little bit too long guys ;_;

Anyways wreckdra brought up zekrom and I think it's placement is actually fine.

It's actually really strong! Life orbed boltstrike can OHKO geomancy xerneas after stealth rock and its Draco Meteor does a ton to the only thing that resists it, primal groudon. I think it's best set is mixed though seeing as outrage will screw it over if xerneas is alive. That being said though I'm surprised it's not more popular seeing as it wreaks hell to any stall team that refuses to run ground arceus (primal groudon can take 2 hits from it at best) which paves way for something else to sweep, namely ekiller and rayquaza .

What should be noted though is that zekrom fiercely competes for a wallbreaker role with rayquaza. Rayquaza doesn't have bolt strike but dragons ascent still hits about as hard (it can't OHKO geomancy xerneas after stealth rock but it comes really close). In addition it boasts a better speed tier, access to priority in extreme speed, and even the ability to sweep with dragon and swords dance. Defensively a ground immunity is really useful and it can stop pesky excadrill on the run in sand. The best thing about it though is something can't be immune to dragons ascent (basically primal groudon can't ever come close to switching in on it), which means unlike zekrom you don't have to predict around pdonner coming in. It's Draco meteor is slightly stronger then zekroms, but you don't need to rely on it to kill primal groudon, that said the slight power boost lets it OHKO primal groudon that run hp and no special defense EVs.

Even with all this said zekrom isn't completely outclassed since access to bolt strike lets it demolish lugia while rayquaza has trouble with the same Pokemon. He feels a lot like the yveltal in the sense it's difficult to justify using it over rayquaza (or in yveltal case ho-oh) but there exist cases where it's bolt strike will make it more useful for a team then rayquaza will, and if you do use it you'll have to deal with predicting around primal groudon and xerneas, which is completely doable but something rayquaza just doesn't deal with. This doesn't even consider the case you decide to make an offensive core based around both of those things, which is probably enough to make any stall team suffer ;_; (admittedly you also have to deal with making a defensive backbone with 3-4 other mons but that's another issue...). He boasts pretty decent offensive presence but doesn't really offer any useful resistances, while this fits the description for A-rank more (does it really need support? I guess it's slow so something to get in safely but still...) I think it's more suited to mid B because of its severe opportunity cost with rayquaza.

At best it's a slot below yveltal since it's so much like it, but I think it's current placement is fine.

 

[Freeroamer]

I think another Zekky set that is overlooked is the Hone Claws / Bolt Strike / Outrage / Sub set on the analysis, with a Shuca you're at least as good a Mence check as Dialga is(which is to say pretty poor but ppl still hype it for w/e reason) and you fare pretty damn well vs standard stall cores while vs offense you can emergency check Ekiller and in general if you can get a sub you're going to poke some holes. I don't think it's the greatest mon but I don't think it's been particularly explored, stallbreakers that can somewhat function vs other play styles that aren't named Groudon will always have a niche.

 

[Spyro Chris]

I won a Weekend Tour using a similar set to the one you mentioned, Freeroamer . It's not what I'd call an optimal set but it does its job pretty well. It was: Hone Claws / Bolt Strike / Dragon Claw / Substitute. Pretty fun stuff. If you run max Speed, you have the potential to break non-support GroundCeus stall with it pretty well. Doesn't do anything vs HO, however.

 

[Cataclyptic]

I have a question just for my own amusement. I don't play ubers since late gen 5, but am thinking of getting back. My question is: what happened to Palkia? Last I heard he was a good kyogre check and awesome choiced sweeper but now I see he's D rank atm? What outclasses him nowadays? Or did primal groudon just screw him over that hard?

Again, this is just for my own amusement. Please respond if you can.

 

[hyw]

So many reasons all of them good.

In BW2 Palkia's primary function was to check Kyogre. In ORAS, that role has become overshadowed by Primal Groudon which takes 0% from Water moves upon switch-in as well as from Thunder. Since Lati@s is hit by Ice Beam super effectively with Desolate Land in one fell swoop Primal Groudon rose to become the #1 check to Primal Kyogre in the tier and Primal Kyogre itself's viability and thereby popularity decreased. On a side note, the argument that "Palkia no longer checks Primal Kyogre" is bullshit, like how does it not when it can throw Specs Thunder and Dragon Tail on a non-choice set if it tries to set up Calm Mind on your face. xD In the end though it's more Primal Groudon's omnipresence that unjustifies Palkia's use on any Ubers team right now.

Regarding Palkia's offensive qualities, first, the vanishing of the omnipresent Kyogre means that Hydro Pump is no longer boosted by rain. Its other STAB has been met with the introduction of a new type which is immune to it, while said type also hits Palkia itself super effectively. The stuff it used to threaten with its coverage moves like Fire Blast and Thunder have lost their place in Ubers, too, like many Steels whom relied on the rain to provide a cushion for weaker Fire attacks while, again, Kyogre is gone so Thunder is a lot less useful.

The return of Soul Dew in ORAS from XY didn't help its viability relevant to the metagame, as its one-dimensionality compared to the Lati twins choked its fitting on various archetypes. Also let's be honest the Rest set some people used in XY was utter shit lol sorry not sorry.

Anyway as a BW2 player my honest feelings about this Pokémon are as follows: in BW2 it was a good Kyogre counter that was offensive, unlike the plethora of other Kyogre counters in the tier. It was arguably better in DPP since the Lati twins were shakier as Kyogre check since they had the potential to get Pursuit-trapped. If you wanted to not get 6-0ed by Scarf/Specsogre on an offensively-inclined team, you had three options: this thing or the Lati twins. While different coverage, Calm Mind, reliable recovery, and Healing Wish made the latter two alluring, Palkia differentiated itself by (1) being more solid as a Kyogre counter (it wasn't hit by Ice Beam super effectively), (2) having a strong water move under rain which was on often, and (3) having access to a strong Fire move. Under rain its Hydro Pump gave you like a secondary Kyogre almost, under sun suddenly its strongest move became Fire Blast, and on sand teams Leftovers recovery was possible. The reason Palkia is so bad now is because all of the aforementioned three points have been rendered invalid as a result of (1) the introduction of Primal Groudon, (2) decrease in Drizzle's omnipresence, and (3) decrease in relevancy of said Fire moves as the lack of rain led to a decrease in the use of Steels Fire Blast itself was meant to target like Ferrothorn, respectively.

A good way to understand this concept is by just asking yourself this question honestly: what does Palkia do in this metagame? If you can actually justify its use then consider yourself a genius! You've proven yourself to be more creative than the entire ORAS Ubers community thus far.

 

[Cataclyptic]

A good way to understand this concept is by just asking yourself this question honestly: what does Palkia do in this metagame? If you can actually justify its use then consider yourself a genius! You've proven yourself to be more creative than the entire ORAS Ubers community thus far.

IT CAN CHECK BIDOOF, THE MOST DOMINANT POKEMON IN THE TIER

Okay no, I really can't justify its usage after all of what you just said. Thanks for responding!

 

[Imperator Romanum]

IT CAN CHECK BIDOOF, THE MOST DOMINANT POKEMON IN THE TIER

Okay no, I really can't justify its usage after all of what you just said. Thanks for responding!

Clearly you are new here, Bidoof, albeit a dominating threat in the currect metagame, as seen by it's staggering usage in SPL of 34%, and really, even though you're actually putting yourself at a massive disadvantage by not using Bidoof, Palkia is not the best counter in the current metagame. Palkia taking a staggering 30% from Choice banded Return is not acceptable, as you're simply 2HKOd after three layers of spikes, stealth rock and Toxic spikes + sticky web (manditory for Bidoof offense). You're much better of using Hoopa-C, or even trevenant, trevenant Havrest + Sitrus berry set truly is a hidden gem in the current metagame.

Happy new years guys, I look forward to playing the Ubers metagame next year, cheers

 

[Gotham Paladin]

I do think that yveltal should move up to A for a variety of reasons. For one, yveltal can be really hard to switch into with its great movepool and hard hitting attacks. With a great movepool with moves such as knock off and focus blast, and even steel wing for mega diancie, it can hit pretty much anything hard in the meta as of now. So while yveltal does have a great life orb set, it can also be a GREAT defensive pokemon. +2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 398-471 (87.4 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO. The fact that it can live stone edges from arceus is pretty amazing. It even has a chance to live an adamant one. Then retaliate back with foul play. It can also boast other sets such as a choice scarf set, which can surprise some teams, since people assume yveltal is life orb or defensive. Also with great recovery and moves like u turn to give you momentum, as well as its weaknesses can be easily covered by a steel type such as sp def aegislash or Primal Groudon, I think it should be A- at least.

 

[haxiom]

I do think that yveltal should move up to A for a variety of reasons. For one, yveltal can be really hard to switch into with its great movepool and hard hitting attacks. With a great movepool with moves such as knock off and focus blast, and even steel wing for mega diancie, it can hit pretty much anything hard in the meta as of now. So while yveltal does have a great life orb set, it can also be a GREAT defensive pokemon. +2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 398-471 (87.4 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO. The fact that it can live stone edges from arceus is pretty amazing. It even has a chance to live an adamant one. Then retaliate back with foul play. It can also boast other sets such as a choice scarf set, which can surprise some teams, since people assume yveltal is life orb or defensive. Also with great recovery and moves like u turn to give you momentum, as well as its weaknesses can be easily covered by a steel type such as sp def aegislash or Primal Groudon, I think it should be A- at least.

I disagree with moving Yveltal up. It does have merit, which you mentioned; however, note a few things. It does have solid coverage, and the LO set can be a decent wallbreaker in some matchups. Unfortunately, it is slower than most of the other wallbreakers in A- (Mewtwo and Deoxys-A are both considerably faster than it), which is a disadvantage when it comes to wallbreaking because a neutral support Arceus forme can switch in and spam Recover without you being able to easily 2HKO it. It's not terrible but I'd say its a worse wallbreaker than some of the other A- rank Pokemon. Defensively the calculation you provided honestly supports the fact that Yveltal is not that effective as a defensive Pokemon, as the threat it is designed to counter just gets through it with Stealth Rock up, and you end up forced to run Charti Berry if you want to check Extreme Killer Arceus which leaves you without passive recovery. The defensive set theoretically checks a bunch of stuff but it tends to get overwhelmed in games. Choice Scarf is alright but it's not notably strong and can be hard to justify at times. I don't think Yveltal is bad, but I think its current position is fine.

 

[Nayrz]

Well I hope everyone's new years celebrations ended safely - here's to a fun 2016! Time for another update.


B+ Rank Changes

• 
  Arceus-Dragon (I saw no objections to this jump)
  
• 
  Tyranitar
• 
  Dialga
• 
  Excadrill
• 
  Yveltal
• 
  Skarmory
• 
  Shaymin-Sky
• 
  Mega Kangaskhan

Mega Mewtwo Y moves down to mid B.

Updated B Mid Order:

Mega Mewtwo Y
Bronzong (up from B-)
Jirachi (up from B-)
Ferrothorn
Zekrom
Mega Mewtwo X
Wobbuffet
Mega Lucario
Aegislash
Blissey

Things got pretty derailed after the Assault Vest "discussion" so I wasn't left with many opinions to work with. Hack gave good explanations behind his rankings so this is more or less his order with some small changes based on other posts. He also forgot Mega Lucario so that had to fit somewhere. Unless it was left out to imply it shouldn't be there, in which case I'll need clarification.

B- has had some mons moved up and looks rather empty. Instead of focusing on just B-, I think it's a better idea to open the floodgates and allow C+ discussion. With such a large amount of mons in C+ and a lot of space in B-, this leaves room for plenty of discussion on if some C+ mons should escape the rank. Due to the size + 2 ranks in one discussion period, there will be an update around 1 and a half weeks to 2 weeks from now (expect something between 15th-17th). Discussion is still open to all ranks above here, especially the new mid B.

 

[Daenys]

Alomomola for B-


Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Soak
- Wish
- Protect

fun calc:

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 229-270 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 153-180 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 97.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (adjusted for soak)

So Alo can toxic steels , catch Pdon on the switch with soak and tank a hit and poison it . Scald spreads burns on magic bouncers which block it's other status move , also can wish pass and offer plenty of utility and can make up for it's lack of reliable recovery with regenerator. Pretty hard to justify a team with it but

Mega Salamence hates soak too :

+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 230-271 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Adjusted for Soak)

Oh and please do not use Ice Beam
0 SpA Alomomola Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 140-168 (42.2 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO (non soak- retaining it's dragon/flying typing)


So yeah , it can neutralize Stabs from Primal Groudon and Mega Salamence

The Wish Protect set can effectively stall out Primal Groudon and potentially free up your waterceus slot;
If these merits are enough to push it to B- that's swell , although C+ is fine I guess.

Oh and just realized you can fit knock off somewhere if you like

 

[Sweep]

Alomomola doesn't get Heal Bell ._.

 

[Daenys]

Alomomola doesn't get Heal Bell ._.

oops, it did on my PO teambuilder , but I had hackmons enabled on it . Fixed. sorry

 

[Peli]

I can post fuller thoughts later if it's needed but I think it is pretty well known that Scolipede and Cloyster are the best spikers in the tier. As for alo it reply just sits there and does nothing, I've never seen a successful team with it and I'm not really sold at all on it.

 

[Sweep]

passing gigantic wishes to primals while checking ho-oh and groudon lacking SD is enough of a niche to make it worth considering, although I admit i have a slight preference to mega slowbro bc it can also check mence and ekiller

 

[Samqian]

Can we move up cloyster to B-? I think its a great Tspiker and applies pressure very well with shell smash