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other people making unhealthy choices
- Thread starter mixmaster.mewthree
- Start date
I have had lung problems since I was born and people who smoke aggravate those problems...the world certainly is not fair, so I can just settle for as many as possible who bother other people like me getting a nice disease as justice. In this case, a kind of actually just mirroring when it does happen!
how is it not their fault? you just said so yourself it is a personal choice
i have no sympathy for anybody weak enough to be "addicted" to food. either stop eating and hiding behind that as an excuse to look like a miserable excuse for a living organism or do everything you can to break out of that cycle
veedrock is entirely justified here
that is perhaps the most ignorant thing I've seen you post, az.
An addiction is an addiction. You fill your stomach and it releases endorphins and other "happy feelings", as well as the taste of the probably high calorie food that is going in. Addiction isn't something you can just 'cut out'. Almost all of them need help and they need to be in a mental state to want to quit.
If you count every single choice that someone makes as entirely their fault, including the fall out, then you can make a case. I'm sure you've made choices in your life that you were pressured into (ie like how many people can start smoking) or uncomfortable with...hell I KNOW you've made stupid choices in your life, everyone has. Could you imagine making a few poor choices and having that snowball into a fat storm? Probably not because you appear to be entirely ignorant of the situation around their choices and the fallout from them.
Yeah, ultimately it is up to the person to stop and it is their choice, but I hardly think someone who was raped or suffered some sort of legitimate mental trauma turning to food as a means to dissociate from the emotional fallout of something is a reason to scorn, loathe and otherwise call these people 'weak'.
Maybe you should do some research before trying to call people out?
An addiction is an addiction. You fill your stomach and it releases endorphins and other "happy feelings", as well as the taste of the probably high calorie food that is going in. Addiction isn't something you can just 'cut out'. Almost all of them need help and they need to be in a mental state to want to quit.
If you count every single choice that someone makes as entirely their fault, including the fall out, then you can make a case. I'm sure you've made choices in your life that you were pressured into (ie like how many people can start smoking) or uncomfortable with...hell I KNOW you've made stupid choices in your life, everyone has. Could you imagine making a few poor choices and having that snowball into a fat storm? Probably not because you appear to be entirely ignorant of the situation around their choices and the fallout from them.
Yeah, ultimately it is up to the person to stop and it is their choice, but I hardly think someone who was raped or suffered some sort of legitimate mental trauma turning to food as a means to dissociate from the emotional fallout of something is a reason to scorn, loathe and otherwise call these people 'weak'.
Maybe you should do some research before trying to call people out?
cute
but yeah, you can effectively cut out addiction; cutting out the thing you're abusing doesn't cut out the craving right away, but for drugs you can go cold turkey
with eating you can still sate your need to eat, just eat less, jesus
it is mind blowing that our race is at the point where we have to provide support for people that not only have too much food, but cannot seem to stop themselves from eating so much it kills them
people need to have some self-control and perspective
i'd have sympathy for a rape victim obviously, and still for a rape victim that eats to feel happy and suddenly finds themselves obese, but i'd be sorry for them because of the rape; why would i be more sorry for them because they got fat? yeah, a fucking terrible thing happened to them, but there are a hundred and one things you can do that are better for you to recover from trauma than over eat
what's your solution?
but yeah, you can effectively cut out addiction; cutting out the thing you're abusing doesn't cut out the craving right away, but for drugs you can go cold turkey
with eating you can still sate your need to eat, just eat less, jesus
it is mind blowing that our race is at the point where we have to provide support for people that not only have too much food, but cannot seem to stop themselves from eating so much it kills them
people need to have some self-control and perspective
i'd have sympathy for a rape victim obviously, and still for a rape victim that eats to feel happy and suddenly finds themselves obese, but i'd be sorry for them because of the rape; why would i be more sorry for them because they got fat? yeah, a fucking terrible thing happened to them, but there are a hundred and one things you can do that are better for you to recover from trauma than over eat
what's your solution?
Considering that the thread is about unhealthy choices in general and not just food, having an unhealthy addiction could be entirely your fault if it isn't something that you should do to begin with. That however is a matter of opinion, I would say that you shouldn't (willingly) do drugs to begin with, and if you don't then you will never (willingly) get addicted to them. From different points of view, this could cover a lot of subjects for addiction. (Of course eating doesn't fit in this case)
Az have you ever dealt with an addiction? You do know that shit like depression and the need to fulfill the addiction register in a very similar way to pain does in the brain. People in chronic pain have meds to help, people in this situation often do not.
Yeah so you'll support the rape victim and feel sorry for them if they eat themselves into oblivion but if they don't have access to help (not all people can afford therapy...and I have waited more than a year for help in Canada) you will suddenly do a 180 on them? Many people don't know what help is out there, many people can't afford it and still more don't have good experiences when trying it. Just from a point of reference personally, when dealing with my shit I had to go to a group therapy session where they tried to make me COLOR. Yeah...that went well, then they tried Yoga and THEN they started talking about Jesus. Just imagine how turned off I was from therapy. It took immense personal willpower and being sick of my situation just to go back- which entirely validates my point that they must be READY to seek help before a change will happen.
Az I don't offer a solution. What I would like to say is that your attitude is exceptionally repugnant and actually throws fuel on the fire and makes people who are already miserable as fuck feel worse. It's unnecessary and shows some pretty unreasonable moral fiber. Just imagine if your thyroid suddenly went fucky on you cause of a car accident (or something, IDK) and you had to take meds. Problem is, these meds crash your metabolism and you PACK on the pounds. Is it then your fault?
Who are you to judge so seriously with ZERO reference to the background situation? It is outright malicious of you to say those horrible things. Now I'm certainly not above laughing at someone's expense but honestly it's not like I'm going to kick cake into some fat persons mouth and then blame them.
Cookie you raise another good point out predisposition. Still more bricks in a foundation of "it's more complex than to say it's their fault 100% and they deserve it" etc.
Zacchaeus- not everyone was raised in a home where drugs were unacceptable. Some people are almost funnelled into that life by childhood friends, family or ever their own fucking parents. I'd say if they are in a situation that is very strongly conducive to doing drugs or becoming fat, they are doomed.
Just look at some relatives of mine- a father that is giant and fat (so he passed on the 'on' form of the genes to his daughters) had large girls right from the start. They were raised to eat junk food and it became habit and normal for them. Is it their fault they are huge fatasses? Well I'm sure they can do a hell of a lot more than they are doing, but I'd say it's inappropriate to go after their character and choices given the circumstances.
agreeing with this point. Humanity is a shitspiral- there are genes that have been shown to turn on and off with obesity. For example, if a man eats like a snorlax and becomes massive, getting diabetes, then has a female child she is pretty much ASSURED to become a giant fatass with diabetes as certain genes pass in the "on" form. Is it then her fault because she quite literally is doomed to being a dumptruck?
Yeah so you'll support the rape victim and feel sorry for them if they eat themselves into oblivion but if they don't have access to help (not all people can afford therapy...and I have waited more than a year for help in Canada) you will suddenly do a 180 on them? Many people don't know what help is out there, many people can't afford it and still more don't have good experiences when trying it. Just from a point of reference personally, when dealing with my shit I had to go to a group therapy session where they tried to make me COLOR. Yeah...that went well, then they tried Yoga and THEN they started talking about Jesus. Just imagine how turned off I was from therapy. It took immense personal willpower and being sick of my situation just to go back- which entirely validates my point that they must be READY to seek help before a change will happen.
Az I don't offer a solution. What I would like to say is that your attitude is exceptionally repugnant and actually throws fuel on the fire and makes people who are already miserable as fuck feel worse. It's unnecessary and shows some pretty unreasonable moral fiber. Just imagine if your thyroid suddenly went fucky on you cause of a car accident (or something, IDK) and you had to take meds. Problem is, these meds crash your metabolism and you PACK on the pounds. Is it then your fault?
Who are you to judge so seriously with ZERO reference to the background situation? It is outright malicious of you to say those horrible things. Now I'm certainly not above laughing at someone's expense but honestly it's not like I'm going to kick cake into some fat persons mouth and then blame them.
Cookie you raise another good point out predisposition. Still more bricks in a foundation of "it's more complex than to say it's their fault 100% and they deserve it" etc.
Zacchaeus- not everyone was raised in a home where drugs were unacceptable. Some people are almost funnelled into that life by childhood friends, family or ever their own fucking parents. I'd say if they are in a situation that is very strongly conducive to doing drugs or becoming fat, they are doomed.
Just look at some relatives of mine- a father that is giant and fat (so he passed on the 'on' form of the genes to his daughters) had large girls right from the start. They were raised to eat junk food and it became habit and normal for them. Is it their fault they are huge fatasses? Well I'm sure they can do a hell of a lot more than they are doing, but I'd say it's inappropriate to go after their character and choices given the circumstances.
Jackal, weight is not necessarily controllable -- that was the whole point. Some people just are genetically predisposed to maintain weight. That's what makes Veedrock's statement so dumb.
I live in a family of ... chubby people making good decisions to eat and getting skinnier. My sister is on an all-japanese diet and it's doing wonders. Before they started doing this, though, I found it terrible to watch them eat themselves into obesity. But this just proves that people can push through this issue.
I also agree with Swaggersaurus. Paying to let someone get fixed because they stuff themselves and don't stop is just wrong.
I also agree with Swaggersaurus. Paying to let someone get fixed because they stuff themselves and don't stop is just wrong.
Fat father= diabetic daughter. Diabetes leads to overweightness if not rigorously maintained (and who the fuck maintains it that much). Everyone should know of the notorious connection between obesity and diabetes.
Thought you all might want to take a gander at how Lamarckian evolution, genetically speaking, can fuck someone over before they are even born. "Their fault" indeed.
Thought you all might want to take a gander at how Lamarckian evolution, genetically speaking, can fuck someone over before they are even born. "Their fault" indeed.
I might be a little ignorant here, but honestly, like with any other substance, this whole addiction argument is complete bullshit. With enough will, maybe some help from relatives or friends or whatever, you could get over it.
You honestly don't need any therapy, it all ultimately comes down to you. People have gotten over stronger stuff than food.
Now I do have sympathy for people who are naturally overweight, etc. seeing as that isn't a personal issue or choice, but something that is uncontrollable.
You honestly don't need any therapy, it all ultimately comes down to you. People have gotten over stronger stuff than food.
Now I do have sympathy for people who are naturally overweight, etc. seeing as that isn't a personal issue or choice, but something that is uncontrollable.
tape
i woke up in a new bugatti
Have you ever been addicted to a substance?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
"I mean rape isn't that bad it's just like unwilling sex right???"
ok yeah your first point is valid but when the fuck did I say anything even remotely close to that
or even use that type of argument seriously
On the contrary, the same neural substrates present in drug addiction are also present in individuals who overeat. In particular, excessive consumption of palatable, energy-dense food produces over-stimulation of brain reward systems, which induces a profound state of reward hyposensitivity and the development of compulsive-like eating.This is analogous to the reward hyposensitivity (aka reduced ability to feel pleasure when presented with things that are normally rewarding) experienced by drug addicts. This is, of course, produced by down-regulation of D2 receptors in the nucleus accumbens, which is basically the reward center of the brain. Saying that it's that easy to get over any addiction is ridiculous. The underlying neurochemistry for addiction is extremely powerful.
And it's not like the fat people don't try to limit their food intake; otherwise, there wouldn't be so many books about dieting and exercising in existence. Also, if you want to say that therapy won't help, you should definitely take a good long look at this review paper. Apparently, while diet alone only produced a 15% long-term success rate in patients, group therapy produced a 27% success rate, which was statistically significant. You should also note how low those numbers are. Even with group therapy, only 27% of obesity patients keep the weight off. It's really not that easy.
How is this relevant at all?
Now morm and co, are you seriously trying to play this "naturally fat" straw man to defend the 63+ PERCENT of the American population that are overweight? I really cannot take issue with sloths and pigs in the general public without getting called an ignorant prick because of a negligible few that "can't help themselves?"
Straw man shit some more.
I can't find a whole lot of science behind this, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "naturally fat" persons are probably "naturally resistant" to the general health problems associated with weight. In such an instance, it's not related to why I have issues with larger individuals.
Addiction is an obstacle but it's used as an excuse more than anything, especially in this thread. "They're addicted, it's not their fault" does not blow over with me at all, nor should it with anybody. It's pathetic. I've seen enough people quit to know it's bull. I'm well aware that addiction is hard to overcome but A) it's not impossible and B) a majority of people do not even try. If you don't try to stop, that's a personal decision and I don't want to be the victim of it. If you can't help it yourself, get help. If you don't get help, you're back at fault.
You really cant keep on using rape as a justification. I got raped and I'm skinny as a twig. The majority of obese addicts of food have not even been traumatized.
tape
i woke up in a new bugatti
point was speaking about something without knowing SHIT.
Someone who hasn't been raped will never be able to even imagine how it must feel, and obviously I'm not only talking about the physical part.
You've never been addicted to anything, so you shouldn't be speaking about addictions like you know what its like going out of one! Will power? Yeah, right.
This also applies to obese people and stuff of the like.
veedrock: How is acknowledging conditions like hypothyroid a strawman? Could you please explain to me why physiology is invalid? Read over Lanturn's post
Your hypothesis would suggest that these people would resist the negative impacts of their conditions but that is quite simply not the case. Do you understand how evolution and genetic expression works?
I'll let lanturn explain why addiciton is not an excuse as she is the neuroscience major, after all.
Let me hit you with some more biological facts, Veedrock: People, like all animals, are biologically compelled to stuff themselves with calories when they get a chance. People are notorious for this as we use a tremendous amount of calories to feed our brains which is only mildly mitigated by upright walking. It therefore makes evolutionary sense that people would run into obesity problems when faced with an overabundance of food.
Speaking of a strawman argument! You can't find anything to back you up so you invented a justification. Let me give you an example of why your logic is biologically flawed: People from nordic countries are far more likely to have diabetes. Your hypothesis would justify this by saying they resist the effects- well, no. Having higher blood glucose levels actually acts in part as a natural antifreeze (ask arctic fish and northern wood frog populations). It doesn't mean their pancreas and liver are too happy, but they do get some benefits. The same works for sickle-cell anemia sufferers- with a heterozygous state, it actually kills the malaria (it sickles when oxygen levels are too low- when the parasite enters the RBC, it snags a shit ton of oxygen). They still suffer some of the negative effects- those with a homozygous sickle-cell condition get immense negatives while getting just some resistance to malaria.veedrock said:
Your hypothesis would suggest that these people would resist the negative impacts of their conditions but that is quite simply not the case. Do you understand how evolution and genetic expression works?
I'll let lanturn explain why addiciton is not an excuse as she is the neuroscience major, after all.
Let me hit you with some more biological facts, Veedrock: People, like all animals, are biologically compelled to stuff themselves with calories when they get a chance. People are notorious for this as we use a tremendous amount of calories to feed our brains which is only mildly mitigated by upright walking. It therefore makes evolutionary sense that people would run into obesity problems when faced with an overabundance of food.
I honestly can't believe that solely based on personal experience, but I am willing to accept that my experiences =/= what is actually true.
Regardless, I don't think that these "rare cases" (let's be serious, a majority of obese people are that way because they eat too much/the wrong things) are even the people Veedrock is talking about. Again, in this thread we are talking about people making choices.
And to speak to Morm's point, I fundamentally disagree with everything that you are saying. Yes, everyone, including myself, has made and will make some poor decisions. However, I firmly believe that these decisions SHOULD effect your life. The people who get furthest in life should be the people who make the least (either in quantity or severity) of these decisions.
I would not want to live in a world where people aren't held responsible for their poor choices. I admit/acknowledge that this is not always the case, as the article states, many crime-doers get away unpunished. However, when the consequences are clearly laid out for you, (which they pretty much always are, I have no pity for the uninformed, I do my research, you should to) then you have to assume the risk of facing them by making that choice.
If I want to eat all the time, I must accept that I could get fat and I could have heart problems. If I want to not study for my exam, I must accept that I could not get into university. If I want to stumble home drunk with no underwear on, I must accept that I could get raped.
People need to be held accountable for their choices. Sure I feel sorry for someone who wakes up every morning and has to eat to feel happy, but at the same time its more of a "that sucks i hope you have the strength to get out of that vicious cycle" rather than a "that's not fair for something like this to happen to you" kind of thing. It is fair because you took on the risk.
Ok, I have an addiction. It's my fucking fault, I let it get this far because I wanted to and I know it's gonna be something of a problem someday. I could avoid that by easing off the addiction right now, but I'm not going to and I only hope that when I have to it is something I'll be able to do. So yeah, it's totally on me.
Jackal: I'm saying that, combined with predisposition, addiction and environment in many cases these people aren't 100% to blame for what has happened to them. I'm not saying they aren't responsible for their decisions really- hell they are fat, they live that nightmare every damn day as punishment for their poor decisions. They simply may not have had the proper informed ability to environment in which the proper decision was as clairvoyant as hindsight would grant. You seem to be speaking from a perspective of hindsight; when someone is suffering emotional trauma or has a predisposition, in the moment (moment to moment), it can literally create a vortex of shit that sends them spiraling down (or up in lbs...). People are not farsighted creatures by nature. You are guilty of impulses, we all are, so don't pretend to be so far removed from the factors here.
To say "Put down the fork", which is what you are saying, is so simplistic and ignorant of evolutionary biology, physiology, neurology and even psychology that it's sickening. Ultimately it is up to the person to decide if they want to eat 50 hamburgers in one sitting. However, the decision isn't as bipolar or simple as you seem to believe it is in the case of true pathological obesity and many of the conditions it is caused by or that swirl around it.
To say "Put down the fork", which is what you are saying, is so simplistic and ignorant of evolutionary biology, physiology, neurology and even psychology that it's sickening. Ultimately it is up to the person to decide if they want to eat 50 hamburgers in one sitting. However, the decision isn't as bipolar or simple as you seem to believe it is in the case of true pathological obesity and many of the conditions it is caused by or that swirl around it.