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OU Suspect Testing Round 5 Voter Identification and Suspect Nominations
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
- Start date
- Status
Confirming as mcrandom
Nominating:
Excadrill: After using it throughout this ENTIRE round, It has come to my attention that it is way too overcentralizing for this metagame. It makes offensive players pull their hair out as their only way of countering it without losing momentum is using a balloon 'mon (which is shaky at best), and shits on stall all day with Rapid Spin and Earthquake 2HKOing Jellicent.
Latios: Yes I know, Latios has been discussed before and it was decided that it is not overpowered, but I still feel it deserves to be banned. A Draco Meteor from Latios outright OHKO's almost anything that does not resist it, and it has a coverage move for most things that do. With the advent of B/W, it also got Psyshock which allows it to overcome the two pink blobs that would counter it. While Tyranitar does maintain its ability to counter it thoroughly, it must invest HEAVILY in Special Defense and lose any offensive prowess it might have had. Overall I think that it hits way too hard for our current metagame and the likes of it's younger sister Latias or long lost cousin Hydreigon are much more healthy options for the current metagame.
Reuniclus: I really didn't think it would make it this far. The fact that it makes stall almost unplayable makes this thing way too broken in my opinion. It can muscle through stall with its Calm Mind set, or punch holes in offensive teams with its Trick Room set. While it does have some checks on stall teams such as CM Roar Latias and Perish Song Celebi, Perish Song's PP, Latias's habit of Roaring into a pursuit 'mon, and Reuniclus's growing habbit of packing Shadow Ball and Calm Mind make them shaky at best.
Drizzle: Last but not least, I still feel Drizzle is overpowered. 1.5x boost to water attacks and ridding steel types of their Fire weakness is just too much in a Metagame where Ferrothorn and Scizor are in the top 5, and powerful sweepers such as Starmie wait in the shadow ready to destroy everything with a Double Stab Hydro Pump.
Nominating:
Excadrill: After using it throughout this ENTIRE round, It has come to my attention that it is way too overcentralizing for this metagame. It makes offensive players pull their hair out as their only way of countering it without losing momentum is using a balloon 'mon (which is shaky at best), and shits on stall all day with Rapid Spin and Earthquake 2HKOing Jellicent.
Latios: Yes I know, Latios has been discussed before and it was decided that it is not overpowered, but I still feel it deserves to be banned. A Draco Meteor from Latios outright OHKO's almost anything that does not resist it, and it has a coverage move for most things that do. With the advent of B/W, it also got Psyshock which allows it to overcome the two pink blobs that would counter it. While Tyranitar does maintain its ability to counter it thoroughly, it must invest HEAVILY in Special Defense and lose any offensive prowess it might have had. Overall I think that it hits way too hard for our current metagame and the likes of it's younger sister Latias or long lost cousin Hydreigon are much more healthy options for the current metagame.
Reuniclus: I really didn't think it would make it this far. The fact that it makes stall almost unplayable makes this thing way too broken in my opinion. It can muscle through stall with its Calm Mind set, or punch holes in offensive teams with its Trick Room set. While it does have some checks on stall teams such as CM Roar Latias and Perish Song Celebi, Perish Song's PP, Latias's habit of Roaring into a pursuit 'mon, and Reuniclus's growing habbit of packing Shadow Ball and Calm Mind make them shaky at best.
Drizzle: Last but not least, I still feel Drizzle is overpowered. 1.5x boost to water attacks and ridding steel types of their Fire weakness is just too much in a Metagame where Ferrothorn and Scizor are in the top 5, and powerful sweepers such as Starmie wait in the shadow ready to destroy everything with a Double Stab Hydro Pump.
Blightbringer
Banned deucer.
um im bristlepine
I'd like to nominate Deoxys-S and Baton Pass and also bring down Manaphy for testing and pls unban Brightpowder/Lax Incense
I'd like to nominate Deoxys-S and Baton Pass and also bring down Manaphy for testing and pls unban Brightpowder/Lax Incense
Nominations:
Tyranitar - Probably the most powerful pokemon in the tier right now. Its massive movepool and amazing stats make it capable of running nearly anything, and it has the ability to pull it off well. Its typing may look poor at first glance, but it gives it exactly what it needs to succeed. Its ability is also massively good in this metagame, allowing sweepers such as Excadrill and Landorus to come in and wreck opposing teams. It has pretty much 0 counters, as all of them can be beaten by the proper set.
Stealth Rock - Probably going to get flamed for this, but after seeing some of the nominations ("I truly wanted to ban Sand Stream too, but that would mean Tyranitar gets banned") I feel I should get this out there. Stealth rock is just broken. It is as plain and simple as that. Consider this, you are running a team with 6 SR neutral pokemon, in a match if SR is put up on turn one, and you only switch 10 times you will have effectively lost 1/6 of your team, merely by switching. If you switch anymore then 15 times you will have lost a third of your team. People keep arguing that weather is broken, yet SR can be set-up in the same amount of time it takes weather to be set up (1 Turn, whether your weather starter stays in or not it still takes that turn to set up weather) yet it will cause more collateral damage to your team then the average sweeper. The only argument I have ever seen for SR is that it keeps some threats in check. If that was a reason to not ban something then we would never ban anything.... Ban the broken stuff then move onto the next broken stuff.
Got a little sidetracked in that paragraph, so here is the basics for my SR nomination. SR will cause more damage on average then anything else. SR takes as little time to set up as Weather, and gives a definitive advantage to the team that has it set up. SR is more competitively stifling then any other factor in the current metagame (Name 5 pokemon that have a weakness to SR in OU, Ninetales doesn't count as it is used only for drought anyways).
Un-Bans:
Blaziken - Never really saw why people thought it was broken, and I play sun (I meant playing against it, not with it. Never personally used it). Anyways with the popularity of Rain/Sand Blaziken has trouble finding anytime to pull off a sweep. Swords Dance is a risky move and Blaziken has lack luster defenses that make all but the weakest Neutral attacks severely dent him, and allow priority to finish it off. Is outsped by many of the top scarfers and lacks the power to punch through walls without a swords dance. Again priority kills him.
Tyranitar - Probably the most powerful pokemon in the tier right now. Its massive movepool and amazing stats make it capable of running nearly anything, and it has the ability to pull it off well. Its typing may look poor at first glance, but it gives it exactly what it needs to succeed. Its ability is also massively good in this metagame, allowing sweepers such as Excadrill and Landorus to come in and wreck opposing teams. It has pretty much 0 counters, as all of them can be beaten by the proper set.
Stealth Rock - Probably going to get flamed for this, but after seeing some of the nominations ("I truly wanted to ban Sand Stream too, but that would mean Tyranitar gets banned") I feel I should get this out there. Stealth rock is just broken. It is as plain and simple as that. Consider this, you are running a team with 6 SR neutral pokemon, in a match if SR is put up on turn one, and you only switch 10 times you will have effectively lost 1/6 of your team, merely by switching. If you switch anymore then 15 times you will have lost a third of your team. People keep arguing that weather is broken, yet SR can be set-up in the same amount of time it takes weather to be set up (1 Turn, whether your weather starter stays in or not it still takes that turn to set up weather) yet it will cause more collateral damage to your team then the average sweeper. The only argument I have ever seen for SR is that it keeps some threats in check. If that was a reason to not ban something then we would never ban anything.... Ban the broken stuff then move onto the next broken stuff.
Got a little sidetracked in that paragraph, so here is the basics for my SR nomination. SR will cause more damage on average then anything else. SR takes as little time to set up as Weather, and gives a definitive advantage to the team that has it set up. SR is more competitively stifling then any other factor in the current metagame (Name 5 pokemon that have a weakness to SR in OU, Ninetales doesn't count as it is used only for drought anyways).
Un-Bans:
Blaziken - Never really saw why people thought it was broken, and I play sun (I meant playing against it, not with it. Never personally used it). Anyways with the popularity of Rain/Sand Blaziken has trouble finding anytime to pull off a sweep. Swords Dance is a risky move and Blaziken has lack luster defenses that make all but the weakest Neutral attacks severely dent him, and allow priority to finish it off. Is outsped by many of the top scarfers and lacks the power to punch through walls without a swords dance. Again priority kills him.
ground zero if you forgot. Glad I got back in time to throw in my two cents.
I'm not going to bother with the obvious nominations like excadrill, drought, drizzle, and smash pass because I'll probably just be echoing everyone else at this point, but one nom I feel the need to elaborate on is Deoxys-S.
- It is an unstoppable support pokemon. Whether it's hazards or dual screens, Deoxys can pretty much guarantee they will be set up, regardless of team preview. The hazard lead can use its two coverage slots to dispatch of the few viable spinners with HP Fire/Fire Punch, Psycho Boost, TBolt, etc. It can also run Magic Coat to render Prankster Taunt useless. Hell it can even run Shadow Ball for Magic Mirror Espeon, a supposedly picture perfect switchin. Basically, this mons sheer unpredictability can often cause the opponent to run in circles with prediction or just cross their fingers as it stacks layer upon layer. There is nothing you can put on your team that ensures Deoxys won't start the match with a surprise ko and sr+ a layer given the wide variety of coverage moves it can run according to the climate of the metagame (for instance people have started to assume superpower so it can easily run something like Tbolt + HP fire for spinners now). As for the dual screener, it's still very reliable for smash pass teams and can usually even get in an early sr, but people have taken to espeon for that role lately I guess because it deflects said hazards.
I'm not going to bother with the obvious nominations like excadrill, drought, drizzle, and smash pass because I'll probably just be echoing everyone else at this point, but one nom I feel the need to elaborate on is Deoxys-S.
- It is an unstoppable support pokemon. Whether it's hazards or dual screens, Deoxys can pretty much guarantee they will be set up, regardless of team preview. The hazard lead can use its two coverage slots to dispatch of the few viable spinners with HP Fire/Fire Punch, Psycho Boost, TBolt, etc. It can also run Magic Coat to render Prankster Taunt useless. Hell it can even run Shadow Ball for Magic Mirror Espeon, a supposedly picture perfect switchin. Basically, this mons sheer unpredictability can often cause the opponent to run in circles with prediction or just cross their fingers as it stacks layer upon layer. There is nothing you can put on your team that ensures Deoxys won't start the match with a surprise ko and sr+ a layer given the wide variety of coverage moves it can run according to the climate of the metagame (for instance people have started to assume superpower so it can easily run something like Tbolt + HP fire for spinners now). As for the dual screener, it's still very reliable for smash pass teams and can usually even get in an early sr, but people have taken to espeon for that role lately I guess because it deflects said hazards.
Hmm...I thought I had 1456...
Editing in noms later.
Edit: looks like it was 1440!
Nomination 1: No Suspects- This metagame is already non-broken. Though weather, Volcarona, Dragonite, and other powerful threats dominate the metagame, they do so without breaking it. A ban is only required when a Pokemon is "far too powerful to be in line with a balanced metagame" (Smogon's Philosophy). It takes a great deal of power or walling ability to be deemed far too powerful to be in line with a balanced metagame, and in my opinion no Pokemon in the current metagame possesses that power. Dragonite is severely hampered by Stealth Rock (which nullifies the only advantage it has over ANY other Dragon), needs to use up a turn Roosting (which takes away a moveslot) to restore that advantage, and has extreme four-moveslot syndrome. All of its sets are stopped cold by something with the exception of the Choice Bander, and honestly no good Choice Bander is stopped cold by anything.
Volcarona is like a Special Dragonite. The Offensive set is stopped by Heatran or Blissey/Chansey, the bulky set is stopped cold by most Dragon/Flying/Scarf Pokemon, the ChestoRest version is stopped cold by a host of Pokemon, and all three are stopped cold by Toxic Spikes with the exception of the ChestoRest version the first time. A 50% Stealth Rock weakness isn't helping, either, especially if Volcarona wants to run Life Orb.
Weather is being deemed broken mostly because it's such a new concept to competitive Pokemon in my opinion. Weather is such a vague concept that banning it is almost nonsensical, as weather isn't a Pokemon or a playstyle, it's a set of playstyles. Sun Balance, Sun Offense, Sand Offense, Sand Balance, Sand Stall, Rain Offense, Rain Hyper Offense, Rain Balance, Rain Stall, Hail Offense, Hail Balance, Hail Stall are not what's breaking the metagame. It doesn't matter that some of these playstyles are "cheap" (really, none of them are; if a player wants to succeed at the TOP of the ladder then they're going to need a lot more than a standard Drizzle team and some basic playing guidelines). Some critics of weather state that it turns Pokemon into a game of "topple the king", where the king is the opponent's weather starter. This argument is so flawed that it barely deserves a response. First, Pokemon is rarely a game of "topple the king", and second, how is that a bad thing??? In context of weather, only four playstyles are prominent: Sun, Rain, Sandstorm, and Non-weather. Sand and Rain are the most common. Very often in high-level matches, defeating the weather starter is not the purpose of the game. It's very common that the opponent can defeat you even if your weather is up (and vice versa) or the two players are running the same weather. Also, turning Pokemon into "topple the king" isn't a bad thing. It incorporates strategy to an extent that Pokemon has never seen before, as now one must decide when to change the weather and risk a direct attack against the weather starter. The fact that a lot of the weather starters are weaker than normal OU Pokemon adds to this (Tyranitar would probably be UU/BL without Sand Stream. It has a god-awful typing, it's slow, it's not crazy bulky, it gets destroyed by common threats, etc. Politoed and Ninetales wouldn't be close to OU without Drizzle/Drought)
Baton Pass is cheap, but not nearly broken. Therefore, it's not "far too powerful" and by definition should not be banned. It takes a lot of skill for a Baton Pass team to win a battle against a really good opponent, and though those teams do well on the ladder, that's only because they succeed against the most common playstyles.
Reuniclus has only two sets, and once you figure out which one it is, it's counterable. This is nothing like Gen 4 Salamence, as discovering the set doesn't require a sacrifice. Trick Room Reuniclus is hard countered by the blobs, Specially bulky Spiritomb, Scizor, and Jirachi. Calm Minder is defeated by Scizor and Tyranitar, CM+Roar Latias (and regular Latias if played well), Specially Defensive Jirachi, Taunt Mew, Taunt Deoxys-D, Defensive Metagross (uncommon, but works). More than enough counters to be considered not broken. Reuniclus is still really good though.
Unban Brightpowder/Lax Incense Garchomp was the only reason this got banned. A 10% boost to evasion is not worth forgoing consistent passive healing, a gigantic power boost, or any other item. The fact that this was determined obscenely broken is laughable. If one argues that it was banned because of uncompetitiveness rather than brokenness concedes the fact that it was not broken and by definition should not be banned.
Editing in noms later.
Edit: looks like it was 1440!
Nomination 1: No Suspects- This metagame is already non-broken. Though weather, Volcarona, Dragonite, and other powerful threats dominate the metagame, they do so without breaking it. A ban is only required when a Pokemon is "far too powerful to be in line with a balanced metagame" (Smogon's Philosophy). It takes a great deal of power or walling ability to be deemed far too powerful to be in line with a balanced metagame, and in my opinion no Pokemon in the current metagame possesses that power. Dragonite is severely hampered by Stealth Rock (which nullifies the only advantage it has over ANY other Dragon), needs to use up a turn Roosting (which takes away a moveslot) to restore that advantage, and has extreme four-moveslot syndrome. All of its sets are stopped cold by something with the exception of the Choice Bander, and honestly no good Choice Bander is stopped cold by anything.
Volcarona is like a Special Dragonite. The Offensive set is stopped by Heatran or Blissey/Chansey, the bulky set is stopped cold by most Dragon/Flying/Scarf Pokemon, the ChestoRest version is stopped cold by a host of Pokemon, and all three are stopped cold by Toxic Spikes with the exception of the ChestoRest version the first time. A 50% Stealth Rock weakness isn't helping, either, especially if Volcarona wants to run Life Orb.
Weather is being deemed broken mostly because it's such a new concept to competitive Pokemon in my opinion. Weather is such a vague concept that banning it is almost nonsensical, as weather isn't a Pokemon or a playstyle, it's a set of playstyles. Sun Balance, Sun Offense, Sand Offense, Sand Balance, Sand Stall, Rain Offense, Rain Hyper Offense, Rain Balance, Rain Stall, Hail Offense, Hail Balance, Hail Stall are not what's breaking the metagame. It doesn't matter that some of these playstyles are "cheap" (really, none of them are; if a player wants to succeed at the TOP of the ladder then they're going to need a lot more than a standard Drizzle team and some basic playing guidelines). Some critics of weather state that it turns Pokemon into a game of "topple the king", where the king is the opponent's weather starter. This argument is so flawed that it barely deserves a response. First, Pokemon is rarely a game of "topple the king", and second, how is that a bad thing??? In context of weather, only four playstyles are prominent: Sun, Rain, Sandstorm, and Non-weather. Sand and Rain are the most common. Very often in high-level matches, defeating the weather starter is not the purpose of the game. It's very common that the opponent can defeat you even if your weather is up (and vice versa) or the two players are running the same weather. Also, turning Pokemon into "topple the king" isn't a bad thing. It incorporates strategy to an extent that Pokemon has never seen before, as now one must decide when to change the weather and risk a direct attack against the weather starter. The fact that a lot of the weather starters are weaker than normal OU Pokemon adds to this (Tyranitar would probably be UU/BL without Sand Stream. It has a god-awful typing, it's slow, it's not crazy bulky, it gets destroyed by common threats, etc. Politoed and Ninetales wouldn't be close to OU without Drizzle/Drought)
Baton Pass is cheap, but not nearly broken. Therefore, it's not "far too powerful" and by definition should not be banned. It takes a lot of skill for a Baton Pass team to win a battle against a really good opponent, and though those teams do well on the ladder, that's only because they succeed against the most common playstyles.
Reuniclus has only two sets, and once you figure out which one it is, it's counterable. This is nothing like Gen 4 Salamence, as discovering the set doesn't require a sacrifice. Trick Room Reuniclus is hard countered by the blobs, Specially bulky Spiritomb, Scizor, and Jirachi. Calm Minder is defeated by Scizor and Tyranitar, CM+Roar Latias (and regular Latias if played well), Specially Defensive Jirachi, Taunt Mew, Taunt Deoxys-D, Defensive Metagross (uncommon, but works). More than enough counters to be considered not broken. Reuniclus is still really good though.
Unban Brightpowder/Lax Incense Garchomp was the only reason this got banned. A 10% boost to evasion is not worth forgoing consistent passive healing, a gigantic power boost, or any other item. The fact that this was determined obscenely broken is laughable. If one argues that it was banned because of uncompetitiveness rather than brokenness concedes the fact that it was not broken and by definition should not be banned.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Un-ban
Blaziken: We're at the point in the B/W metagame where we have learned to build our team to counter or check high powered threats and keep playing. Excadrill, Thundurus, and latios are examples of pokemon who people were initially freaked out about, but then simply learned to carry checks or counters to them.
Why is it then, that we were so quick to ban a pokemon with more checks and counters than any of the above three pokemon I mentioned? I feel as though blaziken should be brought down for a retest, as his ban just MIGHT have been a bit too hasty.
The reasoning for banning blaziken was due to speed boost and the high jump kick buff. Thanks to speed boost, you couldn't revenge kill blaziken as easily while he steamrolled half of your team with a base 130 power attack. It makes sense that you wouldn't be able to easily outspeed and revenge kill a pokemon once he got faster and faster, but...
He only starts off at base 80 speed. And in order to get strong enough to threaten the majority of the metagame after a swords' dance, he needs an adamant nature. After a +1 boost, blaziken is getting outsped and revenged by any scarf user with base 80 speed or more and a speed boosting nature. As far as weather sweepers go, blaziken is outsped by all of them after a +1, and is still outsped by excadrill, lilligant, and the rare timid venusaur.
Now let's say that blaziken is running protect. He comes in on something he can kill or force out, like blissey. He uses swords' dance as you switch to your revenger. Blaziken then uses protect to outspeed said revenger. At this point, you know that he's only running two attacks. Most likely Hi jump kick and flare blitz/coverage move.
With Hi jump Kick and Flare blitz, blaziken is walled by the following OU pokemon: Gyarados, Dragonite, Latios, Latias, Jellicient, Chandelure. If you look to the other tiers, there are options like Slowbro, who was his most popular counter. Of course, blaziken can easily switch out of said pokemon, resetting speed boost and being forced to set up all over again. This is no different then when Excadrill is forced to switch out of Gliscor or a conkeldurr who came in to revenge him.
Another big issue against blaziken is rain. Good rain teams can simply run fighting resistant pokemon to eliminate the threat of blaziken altogether. Gliscor may lose to Mixken (who loses to a ton of stuff), but he will never lose to blaziken in the rain. Of course, one could easily counteract this by running blaziken under sunlight. However, sunlight is much harder to keep up consistently than rain and sand. This is easier said than done. Shame about non-weather teams though, but that is more attributed to sunlight than it is to blaziken himself.
Much like excadrill, the pokemon who deal with blaziken all have application in OU and are not used for the sole purpose of taking blaziken down.
Blaziken: We're at the point in the B/W metagame where we have learned to build our team to counter or check high powered threats and keep playing. Excadrill, Thundurus, and latios are examples of pokemon who people were initially freaked out about, but then simply learned to carry checks or counters to them.
Why is it then, that we were so quick to ban a pokemon with more checks and counters than any of the above three pokemon I mentioned? I feel as though blaziken should be brought down for a retest, as his ban just MIGHT have been a bit too hasty.
The reasoning for banning blaziken was due to speed boost and the high jump kick buff. Thanks to speed boost, you couldn't revenge kill blaziken as easily while he steamrolled half of your team with a base 130 power attack. It makes sense that you wouldn't be able to easily outspeed and revenge kill a pokemon once he got faster and faster, but...
He only starts off at base 80 speed. And in order to get strong enough to threaten the majority of the metagame after a swords' dance, he needs an adamant nature. After a +1 boost, blaziken is getting outsped and revenged by any scarf user with base 80 speed or more and a speed boosting nature. As far as weather sweepers go, blaziken is outsped by all of them after a +1, and is still outsped by excadrill, lilligant, and the rare timid venusaur.
Now let's say that blaziken is running protect. He comes in on something he can kill or force out, like blissey. He uses swords' dance as you switch to your revenger. Blaziken then uses protect to outspeed said revenger. At this point, you know that he's only running two attacks. Most likely Hi jump kick and flare blitz/coverage move.
With Hi jump Kick and Flare blitz, blaziken is walled by the following OU pokemon: Gyarados, Dragonite, Latios, Latias, Jellicient, Chandelure. If you look to the other tiers, there are options like Slowbro, who was his most popular counter. Of course, blaziken can easily switch out of said pokemon, resetting speed boost and being forced to set up all over again. This is no different then when Excadrill is forced to switch out of Gliscor or a conkeldurr who came in to revenge him.
Another big issue against blaziken is rain. Good rain teams can simply run fighting resistant pokemon to eliminate the threat of blaziken altogether. Gliscor may lose to Mixken (who loses to a ton of stuff), but he will never lose to blaziken in the rain. Of course, one could easily counteract this by running blaziken under sunlight. However, sunlight is much harder to keep up consistently than rain and sand. This is easier said than done. Shame about non-weather teams though, but that is more attributed to sunlight than it is to blaziken himself.
Much like excadrill, the pokemon who deal with blaziken all have application in OU and are not used for the sole purpose of taking blaziken down.
Didn't make voting reqs, but I would like to nominate Drizzle. It has been nominated before, so I'll re-use one of my old posts which show why I believe it is too powerful. Possibly a bit outdated, but it gets the point across.
___________
Politoed being dragged from the depths of NU to a spot within the Top 15 shows just how effective Drizzle really is. Yes, singular changes can make or break a pokemon. Bullet Punch Scizor was cited, for example. It's hard to put into words, but that was a change that only Scizor directly benefited from and other pokemon really wouldn't have benefitted as much from it. With the case of Drizzle, ANYTHING that received it would be where Politoed is now - just as people were keen on using Eviolite Drought Vulpix in UU, I'm sure people would gladly use Drizzle Whiscash or Drizzle Lumineon if they were the ones to receive the ability. Drizzle is THAT good.
Meanwhile, Drizzle allows Thundurus to straight up KO SpD Jirachi at +2 rather than getting paralyzed in the process of failing to kill it with thunderbolt (this one is shaky because Thundurus is BL Uber). LO CM Latios is suddenly able to OHKO SpD Scizor with +1 Surf. CM Virizion can now set up on Balloon Heatran, and in rare cases LO Heatran. Specs Rotom-W 2HKOs on-site Ferrothorn with Hydro Pump. That same standard Ferrothorn survives Naive DDMence's LO Fire Blast with a good third of its health remaining. LO Starmie hits consistently harder and faster than Specs Latios while suffering no drawbacks. That's not even taking into consideration the boosts that a non-nerfed Drizzle provides to the Swift Swimmers. And Specs Politoed itself is keeping opposing weather starters at bay since the 3 that matter are all swiftly 2HKOd while lacking the ability to outspeed and KO Toed in return or, in Ninetales' case, simply KO.
An impressive list of calcs/facts is irrelevant if other such conditions can do the same, but such is not the case.
Sand is not nearly as impactful as Drizzle is in assisting its sweepers, as the residual damage will take a few turns to add up and is negated by Leftovers. Excadrill is powerful by virtue of a +2 boosting attack, and even then keep in mind that Jolly Balloon Excadrill's +2 Earthquake is only stronger than LO Starmie's Rain Hydro Pump by 4%, a difference that Starmie covers because it can attack immediately rather than after a 1-turn boost. And it has room for recovery. Landorus must choose between power and speed, and if it tries to do both it will be walled by prominent pokemon in the metagame (Gliscor, Skarmory, Hippowdon).
As for Drought, the pokemon that are boosted still have difficulty breaking past their checks, and still tend to be slower or weaker than their Drizzle counterparts. Sawsbuck is not getting past Skarmory sun or no, while Venusaur will always suffer from coverage issues. Other users of Chlorophyll have their advantages, but they don't have a STAB boost to mitigate their generally average attacking stats. Darmanitan and Victini have crazy powerful STABs under the sun, but their speed is average at best regarding the metagame meaning that sweeps are only supported once their counters have been removed, which they won't often do on their own. Slowbro, for example, will wall Adamant Scarf Darmanitan even in the sun, though it admittedly falls to a CB Sun Sheer Force Flare Blitz. Volcarona, arguably sun's best abuser, has coverage issues if it decides to run the bulky route (Jellicent, Terrakion, Gyarados, Dragonite), and succeeds largely due to a move that simultaneously boosts its three best stats. Drought is good, yes, but far more manageable because of these reasons.
Second, the abusers of sun that receive the STAB boost risk allowing the #1 pokemon to not only switch in and wall their attack and threaten them, but also to change the weather in the process. Sure they can predict and use a coverage move, but I don't see Politoed, Starmie, or Rotom-W being forced to use anything other than Hydro Pump to severely wound their checks. When "weather wars" is a common retort to the issue of weather, having a weather starter that has a natural advantage against the pokemon that most benefit from opposing weather is a huge deal.
In other words, the benefits to Drizzle far outweigh the negatives of Drizzle and the benefits of using other weather. "Change the weather" is not a valid response because, quite frankly, it requires you to have 1 of 3 other pokemon. And I can always change it back.
_________
I would also like to nominate Manaphy in for OU.
___________
Politoed being dragged from the depths of NU to a spot within the Top 15 shows just how effective Drizzle really is. Yes, singular changes can make or break a pokemon. Bullet Punch Scizor was cited, for example. It's hard to put into words, but that was a change that only Scizor directly benefited from and other pokemon really wouldn't have benefitted as much from it. With the case of Drizzle, ANYTHING that received it would be where Politoed is now - just as people were keen on using Eviolite Drought Vulpix in UU, I'm sure people would gladly use Drizzle Whiscash or Drizzle Lumineon if they were the ones to receive the ability. Drizzle is THAT good.
Meanwhile, Drizzle allows Thundurus to straight up KO SpD Jirachi at +2 rather than getting paralyzed in the process of failing to kill it with thunderbolt (this one is shaky because Thundurus is BL Uber). LO CM Latios is suddenly able to OHKO SpD Scizor with +1 Surf. CM Virizion can now set up on Balloon Heatran, and in rare cases LO Heatran. Specs Rotom-W 2HKOs on-site Ferrothorn with Hydro Pump. That same standard Ferrothorn survives Naive DDMence's LO Fire Blast with a good third of its health remaining. LO Starmie hits consistently harder and faster than Specs Latios while suffering no drawbacks. That's not even taking into consideration the boosts that a non-nerfed Drizzle provides to the Swift Swimmers. And Specs Politoed itself is keeping opposing weather starters at bay since the 3 that matter are all swiftly 2HKOd while lacking the ability to outspeed and KO Toed in return or, in Ninetales' case, simply KO.
An impressive list of calcs/facts is irrelevant if other such conditions can do the same, but such is not the case.
Sand is not nearly as impactful as Drizzle is in assisting its sweepers, as the residual damage will take a few turns to add up and is negated by Leftovers. Excadrill is powerful by virtue of a +2 boosting attack, and even then keep in mind that Jolly Balloon Excadrill's +2 Earthquake is only stronger than LO Starmie's Rain Hydro Pump by 4%, a difference that Starmie covers because it can attack immediately rather than after a 1-turn boost. And it has room for recovery. Landorus must choose between power and speed, and if it tries to do both it will be walled by prominent pokemon in the metagame (Gliscor, Skarmory, Hippowdon).
As for Drought, the pokemon that are boosted still have difficulty breaking past their checks, and still tend to be slower or weaker than their Drizzle counterparts. Sawsbuck is not getting past Skarmory sun or no, while Venusaur will always suffer from coverage issues. Other users of Chlorophyll have their advantages, but they don't have a STAB boost to mitigate their generally average attacking stats. Darmanitan and Victini have crazy powerful STABs under the sun, but their speed is average at best regarding the metagame meaning that sweeps are only supported once their counters have been removed, which they won't often do on their own. Slowbro, for example, will wall Adamant Scarf Darmanitan even in the sun, though it admittedly falls to a CB Sun Sheer Force Flare Blitz. Volcarona, arguably sun's best abuser, has coverage issues if it decides to run the bulky route (Jellicent, Terrakion, Gyarados, Dragonite), and succeeds largely due to a move that simultaneously boosts its three best stats. Drought is good, yes, but far more manageable because of these reasons.
Second, the abusers of sun that receive the STAB boost risk allowing the #1 pokemon to not only switch in and wall their attack and threaten them, but also to change the weather in the process. Sure they can predict and use a coverage move, but I don't see Politoed, Starmie, or Rotom-W being forced to use anything other than Hydro Pump to severely wound their checks. When "weather wars" is a common retort to the issue of weather, having a weather starter that has a natural advantage against the pokemon that most benefit from opposing weather is a huge deal.
In other words, the benefits to Drizzle far outweigh the negatives of Drizzle and the benefits of using other weather. "Change the weather" is not a valid response because, quite frankly, it requires you to have 1 of 3 other pokemon. And I can always change it back.
_________
I would also like to nominate Manaphy in for OU.
Nominations:
I have not given any explanation as to why the following Pokemon should be nominated to be banned out of or to be brought back into BW OU because these reasons have already been explained by others.
Pokemon: Excadrill, Thunduros, Latios, Volcarona, Deoxys-S
Abilities: Drizzle, Drought, Sand Stream, Snow Warning, Magic Bounce, Multiscale, Magic Guard
Moves: Shell Smash
Also, if Drizzle, Drought, Sand Stream and Snow Warning are banned then I would like to nominate the following back or into OU:
Pokemon: Garchomp, Manaphy
Also, if Sand Stream is banned, there is no need for Excadrill to be banned.
Auto-Weather is the main issue in the metagame at the moment. By eliminating it, the metagame will become much more stable. This is the main step that should be taken right now, then we can move on to other potential suspects.
I have not given any explanation as to why the following Pokemon should be nominated to be banned out of or to be brought back into BW OU because these reasons have already been explained by others.
Pokemon: Excadrill, Thunduros, Latios, Volcarona, Deoxys-S
Abilities: Drizzle, Drought, Sand Stream, Snow Warning, Magic Bounce, Multiscale, Magic Guard
Moves: Shell Smash
Also, if Drizzle, Drought, Sand Stream and Snow Warning are banned then I would like to nominate the following back or into OU:
Pokemon: Garchomp, Manaphy
Also, if Sand Stream is banned, there is no need for Excadrill to be banned.
Auto-Weather is the main issue in the metagame at the moment. By eliminating it, the metagame will become much more stable. This is the main step that should be taken right now, then we can move on to other potential suspects.
Nominating to ban All Auto-Weather Abilities. I've beaten this point into the ground in many different threads so I'll quickly sum it up. Weather currently has a domino effect. If you ban Sand, Rain & Sun will completely take over. If Rain's gone Sand becomes far too much to deal with for most teams including Sun teams. If Sand, Sun, & Rain go, Blizzard-spam would most likely lead to more bans. We could ban Excadrill, Landorus, & Thundurus but that really just feels like another Weather nerf like Drizzle + Swift Swim rather than cutting the head off the problem problem.
The past 4 suspect tests have been nearly nothing but weather issues from Garchomp to Swift Swim. Weather is obviously the biggest problem if it's been involved in nearly EVERY suspect test. STOP CUTTING THE SERPENT'S TAIL OFF & CUT OFF IT'S HEAD! THE TAIL WILL JUST GROW BACK!
My last nomination will be to Unban Garchomp. Garchomp was nothing more than a casualty of Weather. I've never been convinced that he was broken. Sand Veil is the only reason he was banned and the same anti-weather ban argument can be used for Sand Veil. Just change the weather. If it's a legitimate excuse for Excadrill, it's more than fitting for Garchomp.
The past 4 suspect tests have been nearly nothing but weather issues from Garchomp to Swift Swim. Weather is obviously the biggest problem if it's been involved in nearly EVERY suspect test. STOP CUTTING THE SERPENT'S TAIL OFF & CUT OFF IT'S HEAD! THE TAIL WILL JUST GROW BACK!
My last nomination will be to Unban Garchomp. Garchomp was nothing more than a casualty of Weather. I've never been convinced that he was broken. Sand Veil is the only reason he was banned and the same anti-weather ban argument can be used for Sand Veil. Just change the weather. If it's a legitimate excuse for Excadrill, it's more than fitting for Garchomp.
Confirming as Forblaze
Nominations :
Abilities : Drizzle, Drought, Sandstream, which centralize the metagame too much and mostly don't give any chance of other strategies.
Pokemon : Thundurus, Excadrill, Reuniclus and to a lesser extent Deoxys-S (if the previous mons are banned then Deo-S will set-up EH and screens freely)
Moves : Shell Smash, Baston Pass, I have no need to explain why.
Nominations :
Abilities : Drizzle, Drought, Sandstream, which centralize the metagame too much and mostly don't give any chance of other strategies.
Pokemon : Thundurus, Excadrill, Reuniclus and to a lesser extent Deoxys-S (if the previous mons are banned then Deo-S will set-up EH and screens freely)
Moves : Shell Smash, Baston Pass, I have no need to explain why.
-Like Icy, While I didn't make the requirements [Blame being busy with getting prepped for Uni], there is nothing in the OP that says that only people with requirements can nominate, and, indeed, usually, it states that anyone can nominate.
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Pokemon to Ban:
Excadrill:
It's been said over and over and over again. But I'm gonna say it one more time. Excadrill is too much for the metagame. Remember how the Metagame was when Salamence was still in the Platinum Metagame? Well, imagine that, but worse. That's what Excadrill effectivly is.
Excadrill, with absolute minimal support [Switch in Tyranitar or Hippowdon at some point in the game] renders entire playstyles unviable. No single pokemon within OU should have that power.
For that reason alone, Excadrill should be booted out, but there's more:
Excadrill lacks counters. There is only one, hard Excadrill counter, which is Gliscor, and even then, he's somewhat gimping himself, as to reliably beat Excadrill, he has to run Poision Heal, which sacrifices the option to run things such as Acrobatics and Roost.
Skarmory can come in and delay Excadrill, but what can it do back? Whirlwind. OK, you brought in something you have to switch out of, so you get no time to Roost. Excadrill comes back in. Skarmory can't WW a 2nd time.
Brongzong is a joke in this metagame.
Everything else is either a shaky check or a revenge killer.
Politoad:
I'm not for banning abilities except when it would avoid a mass banning, such as the Moody Case. However, the sole reason why I am nominateing Politoad is Drizzle.
As the sole user of Drizzle, Drizzle is part of Politoad, and thus, Politoad should be removed from the metagame in my opinion.
Why should Drizzle be removed from the metagame? Just take a look at the shifts in the metagame, and the past suspect tests. It dosen't take five seconds to notice that the top 10 are mostly Rain checks, such as Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, or Rain abusers, such as Rotom-W.
Then, there's the massive spike in use of Celebi, which at least can be argued as being useful outside of rain, and the gargantuan leap Gastrodon of all things did. A pokemon that is a dead teamslot against anything but Rain, that has leapt from RU/NU useage to OU. That, my fellow forumers, is a flashing red light.
But it dosen't stop there! The recent useages showed that Tyranitar is being used more than before, but Excadrill is being used less. Now, how many Sand-abuseing teams do you see without Excadrill? Not many.
So what could explain this? People getting so desperate to defend against Drizzle with teams that do not revolve around weather, that they resort to what is effectivly the closest to neutral weather you will see in this current metagame.
The final reason is one I've already touched on, the past suspect tests. Drizzle has gotten a significant [Although not large enough] vote each test. In addittion, two bans have already been made to save Drizzle. Manaphy and Swift Swim + Drizzle, a combination ban that has opened the floodgates, and was origionally, as far as I am aware, intended to be a tempoary solution to give Drizzle a fair test without Swift Swim.
The fact that it's still centralising the metagame to the degree Gastrodon makes OU, and is still a massively powerful playstyle means, in my opinion, it's time to end besting around the bush, and put the toad away for good.
However, if my reasoning behind why we should ban Politoad instead of Drizzle is not adequate, please count this nomination as one for Drizzle instead.
Espeon:
The way I see it, Baton Pass in only an issue because of Espeon right now. Without it, you can Taunt, you can Haze, you can Phaze. Espeon means Baton Pass teams are many times more flexiable, and can afford to run things like Mew over SoundProof Mr.Mime. I think removing Espeon is what should be the first step, before outright banning an entire playstyle.
---
Abilties to Ban:
Drizzle:
See Politoad Paragraph
[Honorable Mention to Drought, but I feel that it should get a fair shot without Drizzle and Excadrill first. Sand is not listed because Excadrill is the only real issue, other than Garchomp]
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Pokemon to Unban:
Deoxys-N
Never got a fair test. It was banned, while it was outclassed by Deo-A completely. Bring it down, give it a fair shot. Then, if need be, kick it back upstairs.
Manaphy [If Drizzle/Politoad is Banned]
This goes without saying, I doubt Manaphy would be broken if he can't run Hydra-CM Rest under infinite Rain.
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Bigger Picture:
With Excadrill banned, Sand would have lost both its broken powerhouses. The Ground-Genie is good, and Terrakion is passable, and Sand-based stall still exists, as well as Sand as a damage supplement. None of these are broken.
In addittion, with Sand still existing, Drought may not dominate the metagame comletely, especially with the flaws that Fire and Grass types have, as well as Drought itself [Double Speed OR Double STAB, as well as Grass getting their weakness amplifyed]. It should get a fair test. It could be that Volcarona is the only real issue with Sun for all we know.
Alongside banning Baton Pass, the metagame would initially be unstable, but, hopefully, would settle into a state where most playstyles can be used. Without Rain and Excadrill in particular, HO could be used again, as well as Scarfed pokemon.
---
EDIT:
Also, because of a sudden wave of support... I'm going to nominate something to REMAIN Uber:
Blaziken:
Blaziken has it all, excellent STABS, enough bulk to take attacks from a wall, and enough speed to outspeed them, He has massivly powerful STAB attacks in Hi Jump Kick and Flare Blitz, as well as coverage moves such as Shadow Claw and Stone Edge, which mean there is NOTHING that is a counter to Blaziken, because everything can be hit hard. His Base 120 Attack means he dosen't even need to Swords Dance, and Base 110 Sp.Atk means going mixed is more than viable.
Blaziken can also make excellent use of both Work Up and Swords Dance. In addittion, under the Sun, very little can take Blaziken's Fire attacks, and the water types that check it, such as Slowbro, have a much tougher time. Azumarill's Aqua Jet no longer OHKO's for example.
All Blaziken needs to do is switch in one something like Ferrothorn, and it gets a free set-up move, and a +1 to speed, allowing to it outspeed most of the metagame.
Anything that does beat Blaziken is absolutely crippled first, and usually requires a sacrifice to get in safe. In addittion, none of them can really punish Blaziken for switching out, by laying hazards or the like, meaning Blaziken can just come back in later, and do it all over again.
For this reason, Im nominateing Blaziken to stay Uber, despite numerous calls for a re-test.
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Pokemon to Ban:
Excadrill:
It's been said over and over and over again. But I'm gonna say it one more time. Excadrill is too much for the metagame. Remember how the Metagame was when Salamence was still in the Platinum Metagame? Well, imagine that, but worse. That's what Excadrill effectivly is.
Excadrill, with absolute minimal support [Switch in Tyranitar or Hippowdon at some point in the game] renders entire playstyles unviable. No single pokemon within OU should have that power.
For that reason alone, Excadrill should be booted out, but there's more:
Excadrill lacks counters. There is only one, hard Excadrill counter, which is Gliscor, and even then, he's somewhat gimping himself, as to reliably beat Excadrill, he has to run Poision Heal, which sacrifices the option to run things such as Acrobatics and Roost.
Skarmory can come in and delay Excadrill, but what can it do back? Whirlwind. OK, you brought in something you have to switch out of, so you get no time to Roost. Excadrill comes back in. Skarmory can't WW a 2nd time.
Brongzong is a joke in this metagame.
Everything else is either a shaky check or a revenge killer.
Politoad:
I'm not for banning abilities except when it would avoid a mass banning, such as the Moody Case. However, the sole reason why I am nominateing Politoad is Drizzle.
As the sole user of Drizzle, Drizzle is part of Politoad, and thus, Politoad should be removed from the metagame in my opinion.
Why should Drizzle be removed from the metagame? Just take a look at the shifts in the metagame, and the past suspect tests. It dosen't take five seconds to notice that the top 10 are mostly Rain checks, such as Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, or Rain abusers, such as Rotom-W.
Then, there's the massive spike in use of Celebi, which at least can be argued as being useful outside of rain, and the gargantuan leap Gastrodon of all things did. A pokemon that is a dead teamslot against anything but Rain, that has leapt from RU/NU useage to OU. That, my fellow forumers, is a flashing red light.
But it dosen't stop there! The recent useages showed that Tyranitar is being used more than before, but Excadrill is being used less. Now, how many Sand-abuseing teams do you see without Excadrill? Not many.
So what could explain this? People getting so desperate to defend against Drizzle with teams that do not revolve around weather, that they resort to what is effectivly the closest to neutral weather you will see in this current metagame.
The final reason is one I've already touched on, the past suspect tests. Drizzle has gotten a significant [Although not large enough] vote each test. In addittion, two bans have already been made to save Drizzle. Manaphy and Swift Swim + Drizzle, a combination ban that has opened the floodgates, and was origionally, as far as I am aware, intended to be a tempoary solution to give Drizzle a fair test without Swift Swim.
The fact that it's still centralising the metagame to the degree Gastrodon makes OU, and is still a massively powerful playstyle means, in my opinion, it's time to end besting around the bush, and put the toad away for good.
However, if my reasoning behind why we should ban Politoad instead of Drizzle is not adequate, please count this nomination as one for Drizzle instead.
Espeon:
The way I see it, Baton Pass in only an issue because of Espeon right now. Without it, you can Taunt, you can Haze, you can Phaze. Espeon means Baton Pass teams are many times more flexiable, and can afford to run things like Mew over SoundProof Mr.Mime. I think removing Espeon is what should be the first step, before outright banning an entire playstyle.
---
Abilties to Ban:
Drizzle:
See Politoad Paragraph
[Honorable Mention to Drought, but I feel that it should get a fair shot without Drizzle and Excadrill first. Sand is not listed because Excadrill is the only real issue, other than Garchomp]
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Pokemon to Unban:
Deoxys-N
Never got a fair test. It was banned, while it was outclassed by Deo-A completely. Bring it down, give it a fair shot. Then, if need be, kick it back upstairs.
Manaphy [If Drizzle/Politoad is Banned]
This goes without saying, I doubt Manaphy would be broken if he can't run Hydra-CM Rest under infinite Rain.
---
Bigger Picture:
With Excadrill banned, Sand would have lost both its broken powerhouses. The Ground-Genie is good, and Terrakion is passable, and Sand-based stall still exists, as well as Sand as a damage supplement. None of these are broken.
In addittion, with Sand still existing, Drought may not dominate the metagame comletely, especially with the flaws that Fire and Grass types have, as well as Drought itself [Double Speed OR Double STAB, as well as Grass getting their weakness amplifyed]. It should get a fair test. It could be that Volcarona is the only real issue with Sun for all we know.
Alongside banning Baton Pass, the metagame would initially be unstable, but, hopefully, would settle into a state where most playstyles can be used. Without Rain and Excadrill in particular, HO could be used again, as well as Scarfed pokemon.
---
EDIT:
Also, because of a sudden wave of support... I'm going to nominate something to REMAIN Uber:
Blaziken:
Blaziken has it all, excellent STABS, enough bulk to take attacks from a wall, and enough speed to outspeed them, He has massivly powerful STAB attacks in Hi Jump Kick and Flare Blitz, as well as coverage moves such as Shadow Claw and Stone Edge, which mean there is NOTHING that is a counter to Blaziken, because everything can be hit hard. His Base 120 Attack means he dosen't even need to Swords Dance, and Base 110 Sp.Atk means going mixed is more than viable.
Blaziken can also make excellent use of both Work Up and Swords Dance. In addittion, under the Sun, very little can take Blaziken's Fire attacks, and the water types that check it, such as Slowbro, have a much tougher time. Azumarill's Aqua Jet no longer OHKO's for example.
All Blaziken needs to do is switch in one something like Ferrothorn, and it gets a free set-up move, and a +1 to speed, allowing to it outspeed most of the metagame.
Anything that does beat Blaziken is absolutely crippled first, and usually requires a sacrifice to get in safe. In addittion, none of them can really punish Blaziken for switching out, by laying hazards or the like, meaning Blaziken can just come back in later, and do it all over again.
For this reason, Im nominateing Blaziken to stay Uber, despite numerous calls for a re-test.
Nomination for Drizzle and Drought.
Unban Blaziken and Manaphy (without drizzle)
I've always thought that the Blaziken ban is completely asinine. It was banned far too hastily.
Unban Blaziken and Manaphy (without drizzle)
I've always thought that the Blaziken ban is completely asinine. It was banned far too hastily.
nominate excadrill for creating a terrible meta where it can hold 3 important team roles that become not only too much for other pokemon to overcome but make using many other pokemon obsolete. the metagame it creates is unideal because it forces teams to carry the same pokemon to try and stop it while severely limiting the amount of team options we have.
Alright, I'm seeing a large amount of people post their nominations here without having the requirements to do so. While I would normally uphold to the stated rules, I feel like posting up my opinions on what should be banned as well. Maybe it will change some ideas on current "broken" threats in the metagame, and maybe not. Regardless, as I said before this is my opinion and if it is out of line than please inform me. Moving on...
-_-_-_-_-
Ban Auto-Weather Abilities - This is a pretty controversial statement as many people believe some of the auto-weathers are not broken and should not be banned, I am one of them, however. Many of the current, relevant threats in the standard OU metagame revolve around Auto-Weather, right? A large majority of teams are built around these abilities; like Sand teams, Hail teams, Sun teams, Rain teams, Anti-Weather teams (Normally a core of Heatran/Gastrodon/Skarmory/filller), and even the less seen Double Weather teams (Which may be gimmicky but extremely effective due to your opponent having a harder time preserving his specific weather while you may be much more lenient with yours due to having two). So before banning Pokemon that benefit from these abilities, take a step back and think about what is causing the true problem. I am not saying to ban the weather inducers themselves, but we cannot continue banning Pokemon who are not truly broken themselves, but BECOME broken due to infinite weather being on the field.
I am sure many other feel the same way, but because of certain Dream World abilities not being released, it is impossible to achieve this "perfect" metagame we are aiming for. Some solutions that we as a community could try are, but not limited to:
- Making a legitimate, separate tier for Auto-Weather, and ban it from Standard OU
- Ban weather abusers in question (such as Excadrill, Garchomp) until the other abilities for their specific inducers are released. Once out, re-test the banned abusers in standard OU and see if they are still broken once Auto-Weather is banned.
- Ban the broken Weather abusing abilities, such as Sand Rush. I feel as if Excadrill's underwhelming base 88 speed is COMPLETELY manageable and not broken in the slightest. While it may affect other Pokemon with this ability, it is not too detrimental for standard OU play, because if anything, there is another, more suited abuser in OU already than something that is RU with Sand Rush as its ability. Or a ban of Sand Rush in OU could be done, because as I have said before, Excadrill is much more manageable when it does not outspeed everything in the game.
-_-_-_-_-
Ban Magic Bounce - Multi-purpose ban here. This ability prevents hazards, and status from affecting the user. Now when this ability was first introduced, people were excited because it meant Deoxys-S wouldn't be guaranteed Stealth Rock and Spikes before it went down. There were other reasons as well but this one stood out the most to me. Now this is all fine, however once that one person decided to use Magic Bounce Espeon on their Baton Pass team to prevent it from being stopped, is where things got out of hand. Now that it is a staple on Baton Pass teams, people have been forced to play a different way in order to prevent getting swept by a Baton Pass chain from the opponents sweeper. The reason I am not requesting Baton Pass itself to be banned is because it isn't really that dangerous of a play style, really. Baton Pass teams would be fine if you could just phaze out their Pokemon via Dragon Tail/ Roar/ etc.. But with Magic Bounce still allowed in standard play, this is impossible, and results in too many "easy sweeps".
-_-_-_-_-
Ban Deoxys-S - Now this one is situational, if Magic Bounce goes than Deoxys-S will most likely be the best Lead again, and get the Rocks and Spikes up no problem. Sure there are the Pokemon with the Prankster ability but Deo-S could just easily run Magic Coat and use the opponent's Taunt against them. It can also use an unpredictable Offensive set for revenge killing, this set destroys late game. Deo-S has just enough coverage moves to hit every OU Pokemon with Super Effective damage, and even if it is neutral, it will still be doing way too much. I don't really have much else to say on the topic because everyone else has been saying the same things, but I felt like it should be mentioned.
-_-_-_-_-
That is it for now, I hope my thoughts were useful to some.
Thank you for reading.
-_-_-_-_-
Ban Auto-Weather Abilities - This is a pretty controversial statement as many people believe some of the auto-weathers are not broken and should not be banned, I am one of them, however. Many of the current, relevant threats in the standard OU metagame revolve around Auto-Weather, right? A large majority of teams are built around these abilities; like Sand teams, Hail teams, Sun teams, Rain teams, Anti-Weather teams (Normally a core of Heatran/Gastrodon/Skarmory/filller), and even the less seen Double Weather teams (Which may be gimmicky but extremely effective due to your opponent having a harder time preserving his specific weather while you may be much more lenient with yours due to having two). So before banning Pokemon that benefit from these abilities, take a step back and think about what is causing the true problem. I am not saying to ban the weather inducers themselves, but we cannot continue banning Pokemon who are not truly broken themselves, but BECOME broken due to infinite weather being on the field.
I am sure many other feel the same way, but because of certain Dream World abilities not being released, it is impossible to achieve this "perfect" metagame we are aiming for. Some solutions that we as a community could try are, but not limited to:
- Making a legitimate, separate tier for Auto-Weather, and ban it from Standard OU
- Ban weather abusers in question (such as Excadrill, Garchomp) until the other abilities for their specific inducers are released. Once out, re-test the banned abusers in standard OU and see if they are still broken once Auto-Weather is banned.
- Ban the broken Weather abusing abilities, such as Sand Rush. I feel as if Excadrill's underwhelming base 88 speed is COMPLETELY manageable and not broken in the slightest. While it may affect other Pokemon with this ability, it is not too detrimental for standard OU play, because if anything, there is another, more suited abuser in OU already than something that is RU with Sand Rush as its ability. Or a ban of Sand Rush in OU could be done, because as I have said before, Excadrill is much more manageable when it does not outspeed everything in the game.
-_-_-_-_-
Ban Magic Bounce - Multi-purpose ban here. This ability prevents hazards, and status from affecting the user. Now when this ability was first introduced, people were excited because it meant Deoxys-S wouldn't be guaranteed Stealth Rock and Spikes before it went down. There were other reasons as well but this one stood out the most to me. Now this is all fine, however once that one person decided to use Magic Bounce Espeon on their Baton Pass team to prevent it from being stopped, is where things got out of hand. Now that it is a staple on Baton Pass teams, people have been forced to play a different way in order to prevent getting swept by a Baton Pass chain from the opponents sweeper. The reason I am not requesting Baton Pass itself to be banned is because it isn't really that dangerous of a play style, really. Baton Pass teams would be fine if you could just phaze out their Pokemon via Dragon Tail/ Roar/ etc.. But with Magic Bounce still allowed in standard play, this is impossible, and results in too many "easy sweeps".
-_-_-_-_-
Ban Deoxys-S - Now this one is situational, if Magic Bounce goes than Deoxys-S will most likely be the best Lead again, and get the Rocks and Spikes up no problem. Sure there are the Pokemon with the Prankster ability but Deo-S could just easily run Magic Coat and use the opponent's Taunt against them. It can also use an unpredictable Offensive set for revenge killing, this set destroys late game. Deo-S has just enough coverage moves to hit every OU Pokemon with Super Effective damage, and even if it is neutral, it will still be doing way too much. I don't really have much else to say on the topic because everyone else has been saying the same things, but I felt like it should be mentioned.
-_-_-_-_-
That is it for now, I hope my thoughts were useful to some.
Thank you for reading.
Nominations :
-Baton Pass : BP teams could be really annoying in DPP, they are now totally broken. As you all know, BW introduced some abilities and capacities wich revolutionized totally these teams (Espeon with Magic Bounce, Stored Power, Shell Smash with White Herb), and now, even a good team can be destroyed by these no-brains ones without haxx.
-Excadrill : Well, my English sucks and everything has already been told, excadrill is just broken.
-Baton Pass : BP teams could be really annoying in DPP, they are now totally broken. As you all know, BW introduced some abilities and capacities wich revolutionized totally these teams (Espeon with Magic Bounce, Stored Power, Shell Smash with White Herb), and now, even a good team can be destroyed by these no-brains ones without haxx.
-Excadrill : Well, my English sucks and everything has already been told, excadrill is just broken.
Confirming as Perroflauta -.
Unban Blaziken and Garchomp (without Sand Stream in the same team).
Unban Blaziken and Garchomp (without Sand Stream in the same team).
Ban the following ability combos: Drizzle + Dry Skin, Hydration, or Rain Dish; Drought + Chlorophyll, Flower Gift, Leaf Guard, or Solar Power; Sand Stream + Sand Force, Sand Rush, or Sand Veil; Snow Warning + Ice Body or Snow Cloak; and unban Garchomp and Manaphy - The logical extension to the Drizzle + SwSw ban.
Ban Thundurus - I haven't actually used it, but given the consensus on it it seems obvious to be here.
Ban Speed Boost and unban Blaziken - Yes, I'm aware of the whole Ninjask thing, but I don't see why a Pokémon should be banned on the basis of only its hidden ability.
Ban Shadow Tag - It is decidedly anti-metagame, and Wobbuffet will be released with its hidden ability by the end of the month. This would also protect against Shadow Tag as a hidden ability.
Ban Thundurus - I haven't actually used it, but given the consensus on it it seems obvious to be here.
Ban Speed Boost and unban Blaziken - Yes, I'm aware of the whole Ninjask thing, but I don't see why a Pokémon should be banned on the basis of only its hidden ability.
Ban Shadow Tag - It is decidedly anti-metagame, and Wobbuffet will be released with its hidden ability by the end of the month. This would also protect against Shadow Tag as a hidden ability.
Stratos
Banned deucer.
^lol
Right now I'm in the "what the hell" phase where I really would just vote yes if I got reqs to every logical proposed ban in this thread because it's impossible for this meta to get worse than it is, so I propose
BAN EVERY POKEMON IN THE TOP TWENTY, THEN VOTE NEXT SUSPECT TEST ON WHO TO BRING BACK DOWN.
OU right now is basically "fuck diversity 101," and I'm willing to take a drastic batshit insane measure to restore some life into this staler-than-fuck meta.
EDIT: in case you're wondering, this is only half satirical.
Right now I'm in the "what the hell" phase where I really would just vote yes if I got reqs to every logical proposed ban in this thread because it's impossible for this meta to get worse than it is, so I propose
BAN EVERY POKEMON IN THE TOP TWENTY, THEN VOTE NEXT SUSPECT TEST ON WHO TO BRING BACK DOWN.
OU right now is basically "fuck diversity 101," and I'm willing to take a drastic batshit insane measure to restore some life into this staler-than-fuck meta.
EDIT: in case you're wondering, this is only half satirical.
Ok i did not make the requirements but I think I have a good opinion on the metagame.
Nominations:
Thudurus - This thing is crazy powerful especially for slower teams. One nasty plot in the rain + thunder = gg.
Un Ban Garchomp and Ban Sand Viel - I think we can all agree that hax is pretty annoying, but chomp without sand viel fits into the meta game well and in my opinion is not overpowered.
Volcorona - Alot of people might disagree with me on this one but you can't disagree that a volcorona with 2 quiver dances is gonna hurt. I think that it is pretty overpowered because it does not matter what your team is you will get swept with volcorona with enough quivers. With screens up you might as well forfiet.
Deoxys-S - Shofu said it the best in his explanation, this thing is to unpredictable and has an amazing movepool. This thing with screens plus a good sweeper is pretty much gg. A mixed LO set will put a heavy dent and being able to set up hazards that fast already putts you at a horrid disadvantage if you do not pack a spinner.
Baton Pass - With all these new abilities baton pass is getting far to powerful its like a ball of snow rolling down a hill, once it starts rolling it just gets bigger and bigger. Its extremely hard to stop with out a force to stop it with (those being crits).
Thats everything I have and Jabba please consider my noms even though I did not make the cutoff.
Nominations:
Thudurus - This thing is crazy powerful especially for slower teams. One nasty plot in the rain + thunder = gg.
Un Ban Garchomp and Ban Sand Viel - I think we can all agree that hax is pretty annoying, but chomp without sand viel fits into the meta game well and in my opinion is not overpowered.
Volcorona - Alot of people might disagree with me on this one but you can't disagree that a volcorona with 2 quiver dances is gonna hurt. I think that it is pretty overpowered because it does not matter what your team is you will get swept with volcorona with enough quivers. With screens up you might as well forfiet.
Deoxys-S - Shofu said it the best in his explanation, this thing is to unpredictable and has an amazing movepool. This thing with screens plus a good sweeper is pretty much gg. A mixed LO set will put a heavy dent and being able to set up hazards that fast already putts you at a horrid disadvantage if you do not pack a spinner.
Baton Pass - With all these new abilities baton pass is getting far to powerful its like a ball of snow rolling down a hill, once it starts rolling it just gets bigger and bigger. Its extremely hard to stop with out a force to stop it with (those being crits).
Thats everything I have and Jabba please consider my noms even though I did not make the cutoff.
Didn't make it this round to be able to vote, but I can post my opinions.
Pokemon to ban: None
Abilities: Drizzle. Drizzle is what really makes the metagame into a weatherfest, that and Excadrill. (which I'll get to later) So many things are made so much better under Drizzle. We had to bend over backwards to keep it from being broken, (Drizzle+SS ban, Manaphy, etc) and OU really is a place where Drizzle gets out of hand. If we ban it, weather will revert to 4th gen conditions, with Sand dominating and nobody calling it out as broken. Sure, there's drought, but Ninetales has serious problems against Tar and Hippowdon, and sun abusers are rather containable.
Sand Stream + Sand Rush/Sand Veil. Yes, I condemned the SS+Drizzle ban, but with that ban, a bunch of Pokemon lost out and you lose one of the main components of rain, just to keep it in OU. With this ban, only two Pokemon are affected. Excadrill loses Sand Rush and Garchomp loses Sand Veil. Excadrill still has its uses in OU sand, as a spinner, scarfer, wallbreaker, etc. while not being completely broken with Sand Rush. Garchomp's imprisonment in Ubers is put on a time limit, and Rough Skin Chomp will be tested in OU when it comes out. As it is, it will be tested in the DW tier.
Pokemon to Test in OU:
Blaziken: This ban was way too hasty, and Blaziken is very manageable in OU. Blaziken shook up the metagame a bit too much with its awesomeness, so he opted to take some time off while the metagame became stable. Now its time to test Blaziken in an OU with Poison Heal Gliscor, sand and (maybe) rain being everywhere, and Conkledurr's mach punch.
Manaphy: Only do this if Drizzle is banned. Without Drizzle, Manaphy is far more manageable, as it must choose between defense and offense, instead of running Hydration-rest and Tail Glow at once.
Pokemon to ban: None
Abilities: Drizzle. Drizzle is what really makes the metagame into a weatherfest, that and Excadrill. (which I'll get to later) So many things are made so much better under Drizzle. We had to bend over backwards to keep it from being broken, (Drizzle+SS ban, Manaphy, etc) and OU really is a place where Drizzle gets out of hand. If we ban it, weather will revert to 4th gen conditions, with Sand dominating and nobody calling it out as broken. Sure, there's drought, but Ninetales has serious problems against Tar and Hippowdon, and sun abusers are rather containable.
Sand Stream + Sand Rush/Sand Veil. Yes, I condemned the SS+Drizzle ban, but with that ban, a bunch of Pokemon lost out and you lose one of the main components of rain, just to keep it in OU. With this ban, only two Pokemon are affected. Excadrill loses Sand Rush and Garchomp loses Sand Veil. Excadrill still has its uses in OU sand, as a spinner, scarfer, wallbreaker, etc. while not being completely broken with Sand Rush. Garchomp's imprisonment in Ubers is put on a time limit, and Rough Skin Chomp will be tested in OU when it comes out. As it is, it will be tested in the DW tier.
Pokemon to Test in OU:
Blaziken: This ban was way too hasty, and Blaziken is very manageable in OU. Blaziken shook up the metagame a bit too much with its awesomeness, so he opted to take some time off while the metagame became stable. Now its time to test Blaziken in an OU with Poison Heal Gliscor, sand and (maybe) rain being everywhere, and Conkledurr's mach punch.
Manaphy: Only do this if Drizzle is banned. Without Drizzle, Manaphy is far more manageable, as it must choose between defense and offense, instead of running Hydration-rest and Tail Glow at once.
Nom thunderus, because it is extemely hard to counter, unless you are packing a Gastrodon, and packing the Don is how you do that
But, even then, switch in with the grass, you screwd
But, if weather is gone, then he is some what crippled offensively, but, he is still the same threat.
Also, Nom Jirachi
Plain in simple, he's everywhere, he can do almost every status effect
He can heal, he can hit hard, he can defend,
maybe move him up and see how the metagame changes
But, even then, switch in with the grass, you screwd
But, if weather is gone, then he is some what crippled offensively, but, he is still the same threat.
Also, Nom Jirachi
Plain in simple, he's everywhere, he can do almost every status effect
He can heal, he can hit hard, he can defend,
maybe move him up and see how the metagame changes
- Status