Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion

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What I was trying to say is that Froakie is the best HM slave because it'll perform exactly the same in battle with or without the HMs.
Cut/Strength/Waterfall are a good alternative to Night Slash/Power-up Punch/Acrobatics/Grass Knot/Ice Beam now? If any Pokemon is to be used as an HM slave, it's not the starter (unless you're intentionally ignoring them).

A more accurate statement would be, I feel, that an HM slave needn't be able to fight well, or at all, as long as it cuts those bushes and crosses rivers.
 
I would knock Bulbasaur down to at best A tier. Early game, it doesn't get any good TMs, and all of its STABs work off its weaker stat. Seriously, until it gets Petal Dance, its only good special move is either low pp Venoshock or Nature Power. The late availability of Energy Ball and Sludge Bomb didn't help things. Venusaurite is good, but it's still not very fast and since its best stats are in bulk, it really prefers the constant healing of Black Sludge. My Venusaur performed just fine as a bulky sleep seeder, but the frustration with having to work off its bad attacking stat for half the game would warrant an A ranking.
 
Just a little bit of food for thought, but by taking the Route 4 Budew over the Route 7 Roselia, you do get the advantage of having three flawless IV's, so I guess there is some merits to getting Budew I guess. Also happiness evolutions are pretty easy so it should not take that long to evolve.
The advantage of the 3 flawless IV's from Route 4 Budew is a huge thing to consider, because stadistically Roserade would be getting better stats tha Venusaur most of the time (if you're lucky and get a perfect SpA IV, you'll be ready to kick ass). Happiness evolution is pretty easy to obtain, so probably you'll be using to Roselia during the time that otherwise you'd be using to Bulbasaur.

I would knock Bulbasaur down to at best A tier. Early game, it doesn't get any good TMs, and all of its STABs work off its weaker stat. Seriously, until it gets Petal Dance, its only good special move is either low pp Venoshock or Nature Power. The late availability of Energy Ball and Sludge Bomb didn't help things. Venusaurite is good, but it's still not very fast and since its best stats are in bulk, it really prefers the constant healing of Black Sludge. My Venusaur performed just fine as a bulky sleep seeder, but the frustration with having to work off its bad attacking stat for half the game would warrant an A ranking.
The issue of bad TM's and weak moves working off its weaker stat also hinder his viability. But as I said quoted, "We do not decide the tiering of one Pokémon based on its performance relative to another Pokémon. If both are good enough for the same tier, they will be placed as such."
 
Cut/Strength/Waterfall are a good alternative to Night Slash/Power-up Punch/Acrobatics/Grass Knot/Ice Beam now? If any Pokemon is to be used as an HM slave, it's not the starter (unless you're intentionally ignoring them).

A more accurate statement would be, I feel, that an HM slave needn't be able to fight well, or at all, as long as it cuts those bushes and crosses rivers.
It literally is doing nothing but STAB water attacks until the Move deleter is available at earliest and possibly not until it gets Extrasensory at Lv 49. Out of all the non Ice-Beam moves you mentioned, only Night Slash and maybe Power-up Punch will be more useful than an HM. Acrobatics isn't guaranteed to exist in every playthrough and makes it so you can't give it an item. It can easily end with a moveset of Surf/Extrasensory/Dark Pulse/Ice Beam for the elite four, but until it learns Extrasensory it has no other use for those slots than HMs and when it does need the moveslots the Deleter will be available so it's no big deal. Froakie has a huge chunk of the game where it has available moveslots and putting strength and cut in them doesn't hurt it at all because the rest of its moveset comes so late as TMs after the Deleter is available. Froakie saves trips to the PC to get an HM slave by learning all the HM moves and can fight decently anyway.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Supporting KNotW's statements. When I used my Greninja it commonly found itself running Cut at minimum on its moveset (as well as Strength and Waterfall at various times) simply because it had the room to afford them without losing anything. It was just running Surf for the majority of the game until the point where it would learn Ice Beam so it was able to make my run more efficient in that way.

That said I still support Froakie for B via my statements here
 

Celever

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Ok I actually kinda want Pansear in A:

Pansear got a huuuuge boost this gen: Incinerate. You know, that terrible 30 BP attack from last gen is now 60 BP, factoring in STAB that's a spammable 90 BP attack right from the get-go, while it's bretheren Panpour and Pansage get Water Gun and Vine Whip instead. I may be missing something but before the first gym this is the strongest attack you can get I think. And it also wrecks the first gym I mean seriously, strongth. The second gym is against the rock guy, yeah not such a good matchup there, but I guess it is neutral against the amaurus and seriously, that Amaurus only even has Rock Tomb -- that's not even going to do a lot. With Yawn I can see Pansear being able to take out the Amaurus but I didn't use him in the fight so I'm not sure. Against the next gym leader, Korrina. Well, let's just note here that it destroys her when she uses the Lucario in geosenge town. It also destroys her Mienfoo, Machoke has Rock Tomb so that's a no-go but it also does pretty well against Hawlucha - I guess mine was a Simisear at this point. Against the next leader, Grass guy, he wrecks. Lol. Against the next gym leader, Clemont, he has some decent utility with Yawn against him and can destroy the Magneton handily. He is really good against Valerie's Mawile and Olympia.. well I kept Bite around on my Simisear, and it actually came in handy in this battle. You can imagine that he was amazing against Wulfric's Abomasnow and Avalugg -- probably would've wrecked the Cryogonal too, but I didn't want him to hog the fight lol.

He has incredible speed, out-speeding almost everything, and this makes Yawn even more helpful. I would like to put here that he was my only survivor of my nuzlocke (the 5 I had with me all died during the E4 - 3 against the E4, two against the champion - and I used him right from Santalune Forest. I'm not even that good at nuzlockes, but he survived from before the first gym badge to after the champion, and was the only Pokemon to do so. Truly worthy of A rank.

Now, I think Scatterbug is too high. I was really impressed with Vivillon for a while... but... after Korrina the guy started to lag. I only ever really used Vivillon for the sake of it, there was no time where I was battling where I thought "I need Vivillon to handle this". Bug just isn't a very good typing in-game, and it can't switch in on much at all. It is pretty weak and frail... to be honest it was only good for a little while, which is a shame because it is a pretty good Pokemon. I decided to pull up some other tier lists from the hub and see where the early bugs were: Scatterbug in mid. Combee bottom (lol) Kricketot bottom (even more lol) but yeah you get the idea. I'm not saying Vivillon is just a bad bug though; he has utility. He gets the powders, psychic attacks... he's a weaker Butterfree but with a fairly powerful Struggle Bug to spam (I may have been incorrect earlier Struggle Bug and Incinerate are the same BP I think). Either way though, Vivillon still had Struggle Bug until it's death... like in the powerplant I think. That's just before the 4th gym but considering how much time there is between the first and second gyms.... My point is, Vivillon isn't amazing. He has merit against... probably 2 gym leaders - Ramos and Olympia - and Olympia is seriously late in the game I don't see why you would keep the bug around for so long. Vivillon for D or even C rank, I'm sorry it's not very good.

Mr. Mime should go to... let's say B rank. I will edit in a little later Imma actually play the game some more now!!
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Now, I think Scatterbug is too high. I was really impressed with Vivillon for a while... but... after Korrina the guy started to lag. I only ever really used Vivillon for the sake of it, there was no time where I was battling where I thought "I need Vivillon to handle this". Bug just isn't a very good typing in-game, and it can't switch in on much at all. It is pretty weak and frail... to be honest it was only good for a little while, which is a shame because it is a pretty good Pokemon. I decided to pull up some other tier lists from the hub and see where the early bugs were: Scatterbug in mid. Combee bottom (lol) Kricketot bottom (even more lol) but yeah you get the idea. I'm not saying Vivillon is just a bad bug though; he has utility. He gets the powders, psychic attacks... he's a weaker Butterfree but with a fairly powerful Struggle Bug to spam (I may have been incorrect earlier Struggle Bug and Incinerate are the same BP I think). Either way though, Vivillon still had Struggle Bug until it's death... like in the powerplant I think. That's just before the 4th gym but considering how much time there is between the first and second gyms.... My point is, Vivillon isn't amazing. He has merit against... probably 2 gym leaders - Ramos and Olympia - and Olympia is seriously late in the game I don't see why you would keep the bug around for so long. Vivillon for D or even C rank, I'm sorry it's not very good.
Vivillion is stronger than Butterfree in every respect. Higher attacking stat, higher base power moves. Your view is skewed by the fact that you let yours die /right/ before it gets the late game powerhouse moves in Bug Buzz, Quiver Dance and Hurricane. To quote my earlier post, "

It slowed down in the end-game a bit but man did it dominate the early game. Mine wasn't even Compundeyes and it was destroying everything with Struggle Bug, Draining Kiss, Stun Spore, solid stats, and then Bug Buzz / Quiver Dance around the 30s. It stayed one of my best mons all the way up until around the 8th gym at which point its frailty lessened its utility. Available very early, can have final form by first gym. Terrific mon."

None of your statements particularly invalidate that. Comparing Vivillion to other early game bugs is entirely pointless because all of the other ones suck and encounter different environments as compared to Vivillion. 100 base SpA is hardly weak, and it gets that power with good powered STABs from level 12. Your entire post is contradictory to begin with, you start by saying its a pretty good Pokemon and finish with "I'm sorry its not very good."

Please try and form coherent arguments next time that follow the flow of other posts in this thread. Stream of consciousness does not a good post make.
 
Vivillon has base 90 SpA, not 100, but I agree with Texas Cloverleaf, vivillon is an A-Tier. It's movepool is just way too good, and it's decent stats allow it to be a great addition to your team early. Of course it's gonna flail off a bit later in the game as you have access to more powerful pokemon, but it's still pretty good as a late game setup sweeper. It's bulk really isn't that horrible and has plenty of chances to set up on the AI
 

Zigzagoon / Linoone

Type:

Availability:
Route 2
Stats: 38 / 30 / 41 / 30 / 41 / 60 (Zigzagoon)
78 / 70 / 61 / 50 / 61 / 100 (Linoone)

Ziggy's back, and he's gonna party like it's 2002. Taking back his place as a first route 'mon, he seems poised to once again bear the mantle of the early-game stomper. It's 11 years later, and he's a little older, a little wiser, and has a little more zig in his zag. Not content to just being an HM slave, he intends to prove himself in the land of Not-Quite-France.

Movepool:
Truth be told, Zig has several things going for it after you get over the hurdle of actually evolving it. He becomes Linoone at level 20, and has a respectable 70 base attack coupled with a very good 100 base speed. It's defenses are bad all around, but it actually has a higher BST than your starter until they hit their final forms at level 36. It's core attacks (Return/Rock Smash/Shadow Claw) can all be found as TMs early on (Lumiose City, Ambrette Town, and Glittering Cave, respectively), and it even learns the might Belly Drum naturally. I don't know why Game Freak won't just give him Extreme Speed through some means that don't involve five games and four different pieces of hardware, but he makes do pretty well with what he has for in-game purposes. By mid-game you begin to see him slow down, but his early momentum is fast and furious (past the first gym, anyway).

Major Battles:
Viola: Should still be in his awkward Zigzagoon phase at this point, but remains neutrally effective against both bugs.
Grant: Not only should he be much faster and stronger, but have Rock Smash as well. This one will be over quick.
Korina: Hardest gym battle for the battling badger. Linoone has nothing to deal with Fighting types except pleading for mercy. Gonna need backup.
Ramos: Pretty much a neutral slugfest back and forth. Shouldn't be hard either way.
Clemont: Again, very straight forward fight, though Rock Smash can deftly deal with Magneton.
Valerie: Rock Smash only deals neutral damage to Mawile thanks to it's shiny new typing, and the rest are just taken down with Return spam.
Olympia: Shadow Claw works pretty well here against the average physical bulkiness of her team. Outspeeding them at the very least shouldn't be a problem (except for Meowstic if you're underleveled).
Wulfric: Rock Smash saves the day again, but Avalugg's gonna make you fight for your win. 70 base attack starts to show its shortcomings here, but it may be possible to get a Belly Drum off to make this one go quicker.

Wilkstrom: Smash 'em up. None of them pack anything particularly harmful to you, but be sure to use Shadow Claw on Aegislash. Belly Drum on Klefki since it has a tendency to just use Spikes sometimes, and you should be able to outspeed the rest no problem.
Drasna: Spam Return and hope for the best. Belly Drum is risky here since everything packs only attack moves except Altaria, but it can also sing you to sleep. Drudigon in particular has Revenge, and it'll mess you up.
Malva: Talonflame's you're biggest problem, since it could easily outspeed you, but you can hopefully deal with the rest without too much trouble.
Siebold: Barbaracle needs to get taken down quick unless you want to eat a Cross Chop, and you're not going to have much to use against the rest except ol' reliable Return.
Diantha: Hawlucha's gonna give you a bad time, same with Goodra who's packing Focus Blast. Some of the others like the fossil 'mons and Gourgeist go down easily enough, but there's not much breathing room for a Belly Drum here to tip the scales in your favor.

Thoughts:
In many ways Ziggy is in the same place he was back in the Advanced Generation. Things like the physical/special split, new TMs, and new levelsets help him, but at his core he's still just an early-game fighter. His primary movepool gives good coverage, and he's able to hit most everything neutral at least, but he just doesn't have the "oomph" behind his attacks to make him a desirable brawler later on. That is, unless you're willing to roll the dice and use Belly Drum, in which case he's a straight-shooting monster. Gluttony + Belly Drum + Salac Berry is an enviably awesome setup, but unfortunately way too time-consuming to pull off consistently in an in-game run.

Overall, I guess it's a D. D for Dangerously Daring. It's great for filling any coverage holes your team might have, even if it won't be carrying the rest of your squad. The fact that it's so fast, comes so early, and gets most of its primary attacks before the 2nd gym is nice, too. Maybe someone who's better than me at predicting the right time to Belly Drum can make and argument that it should be higher, but I feel like that move comes so late it doesn't really matter much anyway. Plus, it's just plain cool, and that has to count for something.
 

Its_A_Random

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Now, I think Scatterbug is too high. I was really impressed with Vivillon for a while... but... after Korrina the guy started to lag. I only ever really used Vivillon for the sake of it, there was no time where I was battling where I thought "I need Vivillon to handle this"...

...

... he's a weaker Butterfree but with a fairly powerful Struggle Bug to spam (I may have been incorrect earlier Struggle Bug and Incinerate are the same BP I think).
I already said this to you on IRC, but another Pokémon's tiering or its performance relative to another Pokémon is not a valid argument as far as this tier list is assumed. This is merely a warning to other people not use use these sort of arguments. e.g. If I want to use Panpour, I am not using it to find a niche for it over Froakie, I am using Panpour because I want to use Panpour.

Alright, it is tiering time I guess... No objections to proposals, so...

Budew: N/A -> S-Tier
Karrablast (w/o Trade): N/A -> F-Tier
Ralts (Gardevoir): N/A -> B-Tier
Shelmet (w/o Trade): N/A -> F-Tier

Like before, all tierings are provisional until this tier list is sent to C&C. If you disagree with the tiering of something in some tier, do not be afraid to speak up & say why something should be lower or higher; it will be considered. It also means you are still welcome to nominate something tiered for another tier or validate its tiering.

Not much else I can tier at the present moment, Karrablast & Shelmet were obvious, Budew is basically like Bulbasaur, comes early, has solid coverage & powerful sweeping capabilities, as well as the triple flawless stats bonus if you catch the Route 4 Budew as opposed to the Route 7 Roselia. No real objections as to why it should not be so... Yeah. Gardevoir in B was hinted to in a previous post when I addressed it. It may have late-game destructive potential, but its early-game is so poor that A-Tier is out of its reach.

I guess I am a little bit on the fence with Bulbasaur now. Is it really S-Tier potential? I want to see more discussion on that, & I also kinda want to see some discussion on Squirtle & Fletchling as well, both mons I have a bit of an idea on where they are at, but a lack of discussion on the two means I have not been able to effectively determine where to place the two. Other mons I want more discussion on include Amaura (Still think it might be a D, but a C may fit it) & Tyrunt (Possible B, but I am not 100% sure it should be B yet). Other than that, carry on as normal, you can bring up other Pokémon if you want as well.

As far as some other mons are concerned, I am thinking Murkrow for E-Tier atm. Basically, it comes late (Route 15-16), horde only (so you have to grind it 20 odd levels to get it up to par with your team), its evolution is not until you get a Dusk Stone in Terminus Cave (Competing with Honedge for the stone), but once it is up to scratch, at the moment, it actually packs a bit of a punch with Fly & Feint Attack (Probably because I got one with Adamant), & was quite useful against some of the Black Belts & Battle Girls in the Frozen Cavern I guess. Up to Anistar where it should perform in the gym, but I doubt there is much it could do to go above E-Tier... Basically it is not that bad, but it is inefficient to use because of initial grinding & late evolution... :|
 
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I would knock Bulbasaur down to at best A tier. Early game, it doesn't get any good TMs, and all of its STABs work off its weaker stat. Seriously, until it gets Petal Dance, its only good special move is either low pp Venoshock or Nature Power. The late availability of Energy Ball and Sludge Bomb didn't help things. Venusaurite is good, but it's still not very fast and since its best stats are in bulk, it really prefers the constant healing of Black Sludge. My Venusaur performed just fine as a bulky sleep seeder, but the frustration with having to work off its bad attacking stat for half the game would warrant an A ranking.

Venoshock is a Base 65 STAB available shortly after the first gym. Hardly 'bad' for that stage of the game. Especially as Ivysaur can have PoisonPowder.

As for Roserade v Venusaur; both have their own merits. Roserade is a glass cannon and eats up a stone; while the Bulba line is bulkier. Honestly they're BOTH S; and are equally good Grass-types for in-game. Venusaur has a much better time bypassing specially bulky pokemon than Roserade; but Roserade hits harder in general. Venusaur gets Petal Dance earlier; and thus 'evolves' sooner. Happiness is a pain; especialy time-sensitive happiness.

Then there's movepools. Venusaur gets moves like Earthquake and makes better use of Return; which; combined with Thick Fat if you Mega-Evolve; allows him to get past Fire-types. On the other hand; Roserade gets Shadow Ball; allowing it to get past Ghosts [Especially Gengar] easier. Venusaur has an easier time in the 5th and 6th gyms compared to Roserade simply due to having access to Bulldoze for Magneton and Mawile.

But in the end they both deal with the same fights with incredible ease. Both are incredible in-game. It doesn't really matter which is better when both are godly.


Anyway; some more!


Beartic: - E Tier
Availability:
Frost Cavern
Stats:
95/110/80/70/80/50

Beartic is a bulky physical attacker that is awfully slow.

Typing: Ice is a flat-out awful typing. Especially for a slow; bulky pokemon such as Beartic.

Movepool:
Beartric's movepool isn't great. It has Icicle Crash; Swords Dance; Return; Brick Break; Aqua Jet and Ice Shard and that's about it for worthwhile moves.

Major Battles:
Olympia: Can OHKO Silglyph; but loses to everything else
Wulfric - Fares decently here; as it can set up a Swords Dance on Abomasnow and then Brick Break the rest of the team [Although Avalug may take two; even at +2]

Team Flare - Weak to Fire and Fighting. You won't have Brick Break for the darks. Pretty bad.

Rival - Uh... it beats Altaria. And Absol after Brick Break.

Malva - Worthless; except maybe for finishing off Talonflame with Aqua Jet or something.
Wikstrom - Worthless. It can actually lose to Probopass
Dransa - Can take out Draglage with ease; and Altaria. Noivern and Druddigon are muturally exclusive without healing items; as the former outspeeds and deals heavy damage; while the latter can take a hit and deal heavy damage.
Seibold - Bad.
Diantha - Loses to everything except Goltergheist; and even that is risky as it can Flamethrower. Even with a + Atk nature it survived a Crash; used Trick-Or-Treak and then Phantom Forced [Although it failed to KO]

Additional Comments:

Cubchoo is outright F-Tier because it comes so underleveled.
Being a slow mono-ice type with an emphasis on being bulky dosen't work out too well when you're the worst defensive type in the entire game. Beartic didn't even hit *that* hard; and mine was +Atk.
Icicle Crash is also unreliable. And the flinch... good luck ever getting that off.



Gible/Gabite/Garchomp: - A/B Tier [I'm on the fence here]
Availability:
Route 13
Stats:
Gible - 58/70/45/40/45/42
Gabite - 68/90/65/50/55/82
Garchomp - 108/130/95/80/85/102

The Gible line is a line of fast; physical attackers; with middleing to good bulk.

Typing: Ground/Dragon is a brilliant typing; sporting only three weaknesses. It is also an attacking combination that is unresistsed by any single type. [Although pokemon such as Skarmory can resist the combination]

Movepool:
The Gible line's movepool is not gigantic; but it gets the moves it requires. Most notably; Dragon Claw comes at Gible Lv 27; and Gible is encountered between Lv 26 and 28; so Dragon Claw is obtained faster than normal. [Lv 33 Gabite] Another major thing to note is Swords Dance is avalable when you can obtain Gible.

Major Battles:
Ramos: Solid; due to the power of Dragon Claw. However; Gabite may not be able to outright sweep.
Clemont: Sets up Swords Dance on Emolga and sweeps.
Valerie: Sits out due to the fairies
Olympia: Success largely depends on if you have hit Lv 48 or not. Gabite will be decent; Garchomp will sweep.
Wulfric - You are x4 weak to ice.

Team Flare - Can basically rip them apart. Virtually solos the later encounters since by then it should be Garchomp.

Rival - Basically rips the rival apart.

Malva - Spam Earthquake; Dragon Claw Talonflame. Torkoal is set-up fodder.
Wikstrom - Earthquake. Fore Fang if you're feeling frisky.
Dransa - Dragon Claws. Noivern will outspeed but is unlikely to OHKO.
Seibold - Dangerous; as he packs several ice moves and Dragon Pulse. Beats Barbuncle.
Diantha - Defeats both fossils; Goodra and Golterghiest; and can happily take a few hits from Hawlucha to set up Swords Dance. The AI won't send out Gardevoir until you've mowed down 5 of her team.

Additional Comments:

I'm a little on the fence about the positioning of Garchomp because of the following:

For A:
Dragon Claw is stupid early
Gible isn't Gible for long [1 level]
You start out with Swords Dance; Evolite and Bulldoze; which more than makes up for Gabite being stuck as Gabite until Lv 48 [Evolite gives it the bulk it needs to SD or take a blow if need be]. Due to late evolution contesting Evolite is unlikly.
Garchomp is GARCHOMP.
Fire Fang/Shadow Claw/Crunch coverage options.
Draco Meteor is an option as well for the lategame; to get past physical walls.

For B:
Gabite isn't great
Earthquake comes very late; and you're stuck with Bulldoze/Dig until then [Bulldoze is technically the better of the two; 65*2 vs 100; and it hits whole Hordes]. That said; you'll usually be using Bulldoze on SE hits; and relying on Dragon Claw the rest of the time.
Stone Edge is postgame
Garchomp itself comes late; you're stuck with Gabite much of the game; which; while not Shelgon; isn't exactly winning awards either.
Slow EXP rate
Garchompite is postgame
 
Can we have definitions for what constitutes an S-tier over an A-tier? At present, I'm basing S-tier on B2/W2 Magnemite and X/Y Honedge - Great offensive/defensive typing, early availability, lulz its way through half the gyms and Elite Four, and gets a great level-up moveset to boot. Bulbasaur is pretty good, but has several weaknesses including meh defensive typing, an annoying level-up movepool (y u no give Giga Drain????), and one of the rare Pokemon that doesn't really want its Mega evolution (it's a bulky tank - give it Leftovers), and performs decently through most of the gyms. It's also slightly lacking in the Elite 4.

Against Malva, Chomp gets outsped by Pyroar, eats a Hyper Voice, then gets outsped and KO'd by Talonflame. Mine was still taking heaps of damage as Gabite even with Eviolite and Dragon Claw just didn't get the KOs I needed it to. I'd lean slightly towards B rank, but I could see it being a low A as well. Going almost the entire game with Dig sucked.

Finally, I'd bump Froakie up to A rank. Early Water Pulse gives it a nice early STAB and just when it's starting to get weak, you get Surf. Coverage options are pretty bad, but Water's such a good offensive STAB that it usually kills most things anyway. Its bulk doesn't do you any favors and it's pretty bad against Fairies, but it does have the typing to switch into resisted hits and KO in return . It also does a great job at stomping most of the Elite Four single-handedly and can even switch in against Wikstrom's Aegislash and KO in return. It still has major issues with coverage early game, but it was one of my better mons in my playthrough.
 
I guess I am a little bit on the fence with Bulbasaur now. Is it really S-Tier potential? I want to see more discussion on that...
Well, in my opinion, Bulbasaur is a good for in-game, but it has its weaknesses: lack of moves of high power (or at least those who use their higher SpA offensive stat), having to settle for support moves (which is not very efficient for a in-game run) or physical attacks during most of its development. Also, mega evolve comes at the cost of not being able to use leftovers, being an item that really appreciates bulky pokemon. For these reasons, it would be understandable if it were located in A-tier.

Can we have definitions for what constitutes an S-tier over an A-tier? At present, I'm basing S-tier on B2/W2 Magnemite and X/Y Honedge - Great offensive/defensive typing, early availability, lulz its way through half the gyms and Elite Four, and gets a great level-up moveset to boot. Bulbasaur is pretty good, but has several weaknesses including meh defensive typing, an annoying level-up movepool (y u no give Giga Drain????), and one of the rare Pokemon that doesn't really want its Mega evolution (it's a bulky tank - give it Leftovers), and performs decently through most of the gyms. It's also slightly lacking in the Elite 4.
Basically, the S-tier is what is written above, or at least that's what I understand. I would appreciate more comments.
 

GatoDelFuego

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Another major thing to note is Swords Dance is avalable when you can obtain Gible.
Clemont: Sets up Swords Dance on Emolga and sweeps.
You start out with Swords Dance; Evolite and Bulldoze; which more than makes up for Gabite being stuck as Gabite until Lv 48 [Evolite gives it the bulk it needs to SD or take a blow if need be].
That would be nice if gabite learned swords dance.
 
Wait; it doesn't get Swords Dance as Gabite? I was speaking from a largely theoretical stance; since I know what Gabite can do and assumed it got Swords Dance as a Gabite.

Well that solidifies a B rather than an A then. Next time I talk about something I'll double check the movepool of the prevos rather than assume it's the same as the evolution.
 

GatoDelFuego

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How about we don't suggest a pretty significant Pokemon's tiering until we've actually used it?

Speaking from experience, gabite seems to be doing really well so far. I'll comment more once I finish.
 

Age of Kings

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I also kinda want to see some discussion on Squirtle
There was a few pages back. I am of the opinion that it is B tier (though I won't dispute C tier) due to its shallow movepool until very late but great typing and stats. To put this into perspective: you WILL be going physical outside of your STAB until the last gym because Ice Beam/Dark Pulse/etc don't come until then and it doesn't help that the Grass and Electric gyms come early on. You can get Flash Cannon via Heart Scale and Blizzard via TM but iirc those are around the 7th gym, still really late. It is quite a tank though.
 
Zigzagoon / Linoone
Linoone can also get Play Rough via Heart Scale for Fighting-types, so there's that.


Trapinch: B Tier
Availability: available upon reaching Coumarine and is easy to find/catch.
Stats: Good physical attack and enough bulk to take neutral/resisted hits most of the time. Pretty average as Vibrava and really comes into its own as Flygon, but it doesn't feel like long to wait.
Typing: Evolves to Vibrava quickly, and Dragon/Ground with Levitate brings a wonderful amount of resistances and immunities to the table. Great as a partner for Doublade.
Movepool: Starts with Bulldoze, Rock Slide, and gets Crunch not long after, which are plenty to carry it until it evolves into Flygon. Flygon later gets useful moves like Fire Blast, Power-up Punch, and Roost as TMs, and Ground-Rock's good coverage lets you carry utility moves like Fly, Dig, and Rock Smash with ease. In short, great movepool.

Major Battles
- Ramos: recently caught and probably unevolved/underleveled; just avoid.
- Clemont: Bulldoze / Rock Slide pretty much wrecks everything. Might have to worry about strong neutral damage from Heliolisk, but Eviolite helps.
- Valerie: probably Vibrava by now, so wants to sit this fight out.
- Olympia: Crunch for Psychics.
- Wulfric: Needless to say, avoid using Flygon.
- Team Flare: can hold its own as Vibrava with Eviolite; Bulldoze/Rock Slide/Crunch handles most of what they have. Flygon can use P-up Punch/Rock Smash against Mightyena & other Dark-types.

- Malva: EQ & Rock Slide. GG
- Wikstrom: EQ is SE on everyone but Scizor, and doesn't have to worry about Aegislash's King's Shield. Can also run Fire Blast for Scizor (mine was Adamant so I didn't bother with it)
- Drasna: EQ for Dragalge & Dragon Claw for Altaria; may have to worry about getting KO'd by faster Noivern & bulky Druddigon.
- Siebold: wants to avoid everything but Barbaracle, which is ~2KO'd with EQ
- Diantha: Murders Goodra, but is generally not strong or bulky enough to outmatch anything else without a P-up Punch boost or two (which you can possibly get away with against Aurorus).

Additional Comments: Great mix of Ground STAB, Dragon STAB, and Flying Pokemon traits, letting it fulfill several roles that might normally be occupied by multiple other Pokemon. Not as strong in battle as Garchomp and can't set up outside of Hone Claws and P-up Punch (which only Flygon gets, and only PUP is worth using), but Fly/Roost and the Ground immunity make it slightly more versatile, so it's definitely not outclassed. Great STABs in battle and great utility capability. Never felt like it was dragging its weight, and performed generally well all around.


EDIT: Gonna throw in a few more quickies I used.
bleh I hate this Tyrunt sprite.
Tyrunt: - C-Tier at best
Availability: Early-mid game; Fossil from Glittering Cave
Stats: High attack and decent defense work well for it, but it is rather slow and has trouble tanking hits until it evolves.
Typing: Rock/Dragon is cool, but it takes a while to get any decent STAB moves after Rock Tomb.
Movepool: Not TERRIBLE, I suppose, but it doesn't start with much-- Crunch is pretty much the only usable move until Rock Tomb and Bulldoze, and then it gets Dclaw a bit later in level-up (which I found myself mostly not using due to lack of SE coverage). Rock Polish/Slide and Earthquake are nice later, as is Tyrantrum's Head Smash with a heart scale, but mine had trouble taking hits and/or setting up. Can also Strength/Rock Smash in addition to Rock/Ground/Dark coverage.
Major Battles:
- Grant: apparently too slow not to get wrecked by Amaura's Glaciated Take Down, and presumably also too slow against his Tyrunt.
- Korrina: obviously needs to sit it out bcuz Fighting weakness.
- Ramos: Neutral type matchups, but Tyrunt still won't likely be evolved by this point, and will be underpowered against Ramos' evolved grassies.
- Clemont: gets Bulldoze and resists Electric, so there's that.

(NOTE: By this point I found Tyrunt to be too much dead weight and dropped him for Trapinch/Vibrava, so everything from here on out is theorymonning.)

- Valerie: AVOID dem fairies
- Olympia: Pseudo-STAB Crunch should handle things just fine.
- Wulfric: Risky. Rock STAB should wreck Abomasnow and Cryogonal, but Avalugg probably has enough defense to give him trouble and threaten to KO.

- Team Flare: Aside from fearing Lysandre's Mienshao, shouldn't have much trouble overpowering things.

- Malva: Rock moves wreck pretty much everything she has, and Tyrantrum's type walls most of her coverage. Watch out for Chandelure, maybe.
- Wikstrom: Probably better off avoiding him. Can threaten Klefki and Probopass, but since the latter has Sturdy and both probably have Flash Cannon, it's probably better to have Tyrantrum sit the fight out altogether.
- Drasna: EQ/Dclaw probably works well against Dragalge and Altaria, and if it has mostly-full HP, it can probably JUST overpower Druddigon, though it's a risk. Fast Noivern is probably best avoided.
- Siebold: Can Crunch Starmie and EQ Barbaracle, but likely wants to avoid the others. Gyarados' intimidate + Dragon Dance makes it tougher for Rock Slide to KO, and Head Smash is such a double-edged sword that it might not be worthwhile.
- Diantha: Probably fast enough to wreck Aurorus, HER Tyrantrum is a toss-up depending on yours' IVs/nature/Training/moves I guess, Goodra gets stomped by Dragon Claw, and her Hawlucha and Megavoir should be avoided. Gourgeist can be handled well if you still have Crunch.

Additional Comments: Personally, raising Tyrunt felt too slow and tedious to be worthwhile; as I mentioned, I grabbed Vibrava and it was pulling its weight much more effectively and proved to be much more versatile and useful. It's slower than both Vibrava and Gabite and secondary Rock typing doesn't feel as useful as Ground (those STAB EQs can really make a difference at the E4, although walling Malva flat is pretty cool).

But looking at Tyrunt/Tyrantrum on their own… They're not TOO bad. Getting 'STAB' via Strong Jaw on Crunch is super useful if you don't pack a Dark-type, and it can tank hits pretty well once it finally evolves (which, as I said, feels like it takes FOREEEEEVERRRRR). If I'd given it until it evolved, I imagine it'd have pulled its weight much better, but as it stood, it didn't feel worthwhile to spend the time to get there, and my team didn't really need its services. Definitely not bad (almost certainly better than Amaura), but not as good as other Dragons IMO, since it doesn't care to rely on its Dragon STAB that much.


Nincada: - D/E Tier
Availability: Early-game - Route 6
Stats: Stats outside of good Defense are flat-out weaksauce until it evolves. Ninjask is fast, but it's not that physically strong so it doesn't have much to do with its speed.
Typing: Bug/Flying is pretty much a double-edged sword. It's great when it's great (IE, against things that you heavily resist like Grass and Fighting), but it comes with a lot of weaknesses that Ninjask is generally too weak to take hits from.
Movepool: Doesn't get much, and is basically limited to Bug Bite until Aerial Ace, then eventually Dig and X-Scissor. Baton Pass is useful if you can survive long enough to set up SD and use it, but I found it too difficult to be worthwhile. Can run utility with Cut too I suppose, but not getting Fly hurts a flying-type's viability.
Major Battles: Could do well against Korrina and Ramos, since it 4x resists their STAB types. Beyond that, I'd already moved on to using others; When not in SE matchups, it's difficult to kill things, and Ninjask is generally too fragile to set up SD in most things' faces.
Additional Comments: Gets poor offensive coverage and doesn't hit very hard, can't take hits well, and generally just isn't very useful. About the best thing you could probably do with it, aside from walling some Grasses and Fighting-types, is to go the competitive route and pass SD boosts, but even that's a bit of a chore and it doesn't really feel worthwhile either. D at best, but more likely E tier.


Shedinja: - F Tier

Availability: Early-game - Route 6 (evolve Nincada)
Stats: Since Attack and Speed are all that matters… Its attack is Okay, I guess.
Typing: Bug/Ghost; not bad except for the fact that he dies if hit by an SE move-- and there are a LOT of those. And passive damage.
Movepool: Passable, but really doesn't get much esp. when it doesn't get Ninjask's moves upon evolving. Claw Sharpen, Shadow Claw, and Return are pretty much what it's limited to until you can get Phantom Force through level-up (which you're not gonna do because Sheddy is too fragile to invest in) or X-Scissor). Protect is the big essential if you DO decide to use it for some reason.
Major Battles: The only ones I can foresee him avoiding ANY of the many things that can instantly kill him are Clemont, Valeria, and Olympia. You're not likely to make it that far with him in your party, though.
Additional Comments: I love poor dear old Sheddy, but he's no better than the other F-tier gimmicks, sadly. T^T Supereffective moves are everywhere, and scouting with Protect is no guarantee of avoiding them, since the stupid AIs of wild Pokemon and weak Trainers basically just use random moves. Just… not worth it.
 
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Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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Venoshock is a Base 65 STAB available shortly after the first gym. Hardly 'bad' for that stage of the game. Especially as Ivysaur can have PoisonPowder.
The main issue with using such a strategy is that it has a 25% chance to miss with PoisonPowder, which is a wasted turn -- you might as well have just Mega Evolved at that point if you were 3HKOing for example.

Anyway, I think the main thing we need to look at is what qualifies as S Tier. For starters I actually doubt on Honedge. Look at it - it has a good Attack and Def stat, but Doublade cannot evolve until rather late and the primary issue - it is slow as balls. You rely on Swords Dance + Shadow Sneak to really outspeed opponents in general. I mean, Magnemite / 'ton / 'zone at least have some Speed behind them for a while. Magneton isn't really a slouch in power and 'zone at least is optional (I get it, there's at least a tie in Speed with Aegislash and Magnezone, but 'ton is still faster and the like. I realize it's a comparison of two generations, but it's shoddy to really accept such a slow mon as S Tier.
 

Celever

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Ok I actually kinda want Pansear in A:

Pansear got a huuuuge boost this gen: Incinerate. You know, that terrible 30 BP attack from last gen is now 60 BP, factoring in STAB that's a spammable 90 BP attack right from the get-go, while it's bretheren Panpour and Pansage get Water Gun and Vine Whip instead. I may be missing something but before the first gym this is the strongest attack you can get I think. And it also wrecks the first gym I mean seriously, strongth. The second gym is against the rock guy, yeah not such a good matchup there, but I guess it is neutral against the amaurus and seriously, that Amaurus only even has Rock Tomb -- that's not even going to do a lot. With Yawn I can see Pansear being able to take out the Amaurus but I didn't use him in the fight so I'm not sure. Against the next gym leader, Korrina. Well, let's just note here that it destroys her when she uses the Lucario in geosenge town. It also destroys her Mienfoo, Machoke has Rock Tomb so that's a no-go but it also does pretty well against Hawlucha - I guess mine was a Simisear at this point. Against the next leader, Grass guy, he wrecks. Lol. Against the next gym leader, Clemont, he has some decent utility with Yawn against him and can destroy the Magneton handily. He is really good against Valerie's Mawile and Olympia.. well I kept Bite around on my Simisear, and it actually came in handy in this battle. You can imagine that he was amazing against Wulfric's Abomasnow and Avalugg -- probably would've wrecked the Cryogonal too, but I didn't want him to hog the fight lol.

He has incredible speed, out-speeding almost everything, and this makes Yawn even more helpful. I would like to put here that he was my only survivor of my nuzlocke (the 5 I had with me all died during the E4 - 3 against the E4, two against the champion - and I used him right from Santalune Forest. I'm not even that good at nuzlockes, but he survived from before the first gym badge to after the champion, and was the only Pokemon to do so. Truly worthy of A rank.
^ Discuss this please!!
 
@ Celever: I didn't use Pansear, so I can't really comment on it. I think it's your job to sell everyone else on it if you think it's worthwhile, though. (Also, you might want to state your case in a more intelligible format; you have a lot of run-on sentences that make reading your argument kind of a chore. I suggest you follow the format that others are using and try to be more concise if you can.)

The main issue with using such a strategy is that it has a 25% chance to miss with PoisonPowder, which is a wasted turn -- you might as well have just Mega Evolved at that point if you were 3HKOing for example.

Anyway, I think the main thing we need to look at is what qualifies as S Tier. For starters I actually doubt on Honedge. Look at it - it has a good Attack and Def stat, but Doublade cannot evolve until rather late and the primary issue - it is slow as balls. You rely on Swords Dance + Shadow Sneak to really outspeed opponents in general. I mean, Magnemite / 'ton / 'zone at least have some Speed behind them for a while. Magneton isn't really a slouch in power and 'zone at least is optional (I get it, there's at least a tie in Speed with Aegislash and Magnezone, but 'ton is still faster and the like. I realize it's a comparison of two generations, but it's shoddy to really accept such a slow mon as S Tier.
Did you REALLY have trouble using it?? Personally, I ran Honedge and it blazed through just about everything that I cared to send it against, whether or not it was evolved-- the fact that it evolved to Doublade so much didn't bother me in the least because it was still pulling its weight. Maybe it's slow, but its resistances, defenses, and offenses are good enough to make it not really matter. I guess it could be bumped down to A-tier, but if you want to compare it to Magnemite in BW2, I'd say it definitely stacks up-- especially after Eviolite, which makes Doublade into a hardass tank (I even regretted evolving mine into Aegislash for a little while). Whether or not it evolves late or can outspeed things is merely incidental IMO as long as it does its job.

As for Venoshock, I think you're overlooking just how EARLY in the game you get it. You're mentioning Megavolution for it when it comes right after the first gym-- a 65 BP STAB, with or without the boost from the opponent being poisoned, is nothing to sneeze at. In fact, I didn't even bother running Poisonpowder on my Ivysaur (Venoshock/Razor Leaf/Nature Power/Sleep Powder was what I ran for most of the early-midgame), and he did just fine smashing things with Venoshock until Toxic and later Sludge Bomb became available. It's not such an attractive option when you finally evolve to Venusaur, since you're kind of craving a stronger STAB by that point, but it does great for Ivysaur in the early-midgame.

EDIT: In reading through the thread, it seems like a lot of people have a high opinion of Gardevoir; having used her myself, I can verify that this is certainly founded, although I don't think it's A-material. Gardevoir itself is great, but Ralts and Kirlia are very fragile (on top of slow, in Ralts' case) and need a lot of hand-holding before they evolve fully. I agree that, once it IS Gardevoir, it's very useful, training it to that point takes a lot of time and effort. Thus, I think Gardevoir is closer to B tier, as it's a bit too care-intensive early on to be considered REALLY good.
 
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The strategy for half of the gym battles in my playthrough was "have Honedge plow through everything." Every Aegislash user goes through a bit of buyer's remorse as Eviolite Doublade is darn near untouchable (and has access to a 4th moveslot.) Its job is to tank most everything, and it does that job EXTREMELY well. It was honestly BW2 Magnemite level good for me.
 
I'm going to post about my in-game team.


Fennekin - A Tier, possibly B
Availability:
Starter
Stats: It has decent Speed, and its Special Attack is really good. Its Special Defense is nice as well, although its physical stats leave a bit to be desired. Overall, its stats are really nice for getting through the game, and Blaze is always better than nothing.
Typing: It's weak to Water, Ground, and Rock early on. This means that it's useless against Grant and any Fishermen you meet, but other than that it's an amazing early-game typing. The only thing that lets it down is Viola's Surskit. It also has resistances to SIX types, which is awesome. When it evolves into Delphox, it gets two more resistances, loses the Bug resistance (lol like that matters), and gets weaknesses to Dark and Ghost, which are somewhat common types late-game, especially against Team Flare. Its STABs have amazing coverage throughout the game though.
Movepool: It gets Ember. And Flame Charge. And Fire Spin. And no other Fire-type STAB until you evolve into Delphox. There's also zero Fire-type TMs early-game (and you can't afford Sunny Day the first time you get to Lumiose). It does get Psybeam but it's unSTABed and is just as weak as Ember. By the time you get to Korrina, though, Psyshock will probably be enough to pull you through.
Major Battles: It struggles against four Gym Leader's mons: Surskit, Amaura, Tyrunt, and Slowking. Otherwise the gyms are cakewalks for this guy. Grant also comes conveniently in the Braixen stage where you have no powerful moves, and by the time you get to Korrina it's likely you'll have Psyshock or be within a couple levels of it. It doesn't like most of Team Flare, and it has bad matchups against your Rival (Absol, Meowstic resists Psychic, Altaria later, Greninja). But you do force her to use Flareon! It can deal with a lot of the E4, like Wikstrom and Drasna's Dragalgae, but keep him away from Siebold.
Additional Comments: Delphox steamrolls the gyms due to his excellent matchups against him. He is, however, slightly underwhelming early-game thanks to Surskit and Grant, as well as having no good STAB moves to use. Once you get to Korrina however it's smooth sailing.


Fletchling - B Tier
Availability:
Route 2. It's the earliest thing you can find.
Stats: It has decent stats early-game, but later it struggles to keep up stat-wise. However, it does have very powerful attacking moves, so that's a plus. Also it outspeeds everything you will find in-game.
Typing: Normal/Flying is great early-game since you get STAB Tackle, which is way better than Peck unless you're against Viola. Later, Fire/Flying leaves it with Peck and Ember, which is sub-optimal until you get stronger STABs, but is a decent defensive typing. It's a double-edged sword though, as he is a piece of shit in the last two Sky Battles thanks to Stone Edge Flygon+Baton Pass Ninjask, and Aerodactyl (I needed X-Defends for the last one, and I overleveled him by 20 levels...)
Movepool: Once you evolve you have Peck and Ember as STABs, which is really bad. The Aerial Ace TM is rather late for Fletchinder, so it spends a lot of time being useless. Although, it is right after Grant, and if you're using him against Grant you are retarded. Flame Charge is decent for mid-game, although at that point you have Aerial Ace already. Once you get to Coumarine City, you get Fly, and Roost is nice too. Move rememberer gives him Flare Blitz and Brave Bird, and it gets Acrobatics, which is awesome in-game.
Major Battles: Unless you somehow evolved it already, it owns Viola. It also beats Korrina and Ramos easily, and it resists Valerie's STAB. Keep far away from Grant and Clemont, and Olympia has a Slowking...It beats Wulfric, though you might want to use Flamethrower for that match since Avalugg exists. It's pretty good against Team Flare, since its Fly hits them quite hard, especially as a Talonflame against their Scraggies early on. In the E4, you can try Wikstrom, although Probopass beats you (lol).
Additional Comments: It's a really good Flying-type, and those are always useful because of Fly. Its typing is also decent defensively in-game, although you might need another Flier for Sky Battles due to the Stone Edgers late-game.


Flabébé - C Tier
Availability:
Route 4, which is right after Santalune Gym.
Stats: Holy shit that Special Defense lol. Even as a Floette it's pretty damn bulky with Eviolite. Diantha's Goodra 3HKOes Eviolite Floette with Fire Blast. Everything else is weaker. Its Special Attack is also awesome.
Typing: Fairy is nice for a large portion of the game. Then random Sawks and Machamps start having Poison Jab...but it can stomach them and OHKO back.
Movepool: It's movepool is ATROCIOUS. It starts with Tackle, Vine Whip, and Fairy Wind. It gets nothing noteworthy until lv. 20, when you are already Floette, and you finally learn Wish...which is not that good in-game. lv. 25 gives you Magical Leaf, which is an actual decent attack, but it has the same power than Fairy Wind. It then gets support moves and Grass-type moves until lv. 46 as a Floette, when you FINALLY get Moonblast. 51 gives you Petal Dance, and 58 Solar Beam. If you evolve it...then I don't know if it even learns any of these moves. As for TMs, it gets...Dazzling Gleam. And Hidden Power.
Major Battles: It does okay against Grant thanks to Magical Leaf and SE STAB on Tyrunt. Against Korrina it has a type advantage but we all know how hard Fairy Wind hits her. You cannot do anything to Ramos or Clemont thanks to how pitifully weak you are. Valerie is also a big no-no. At Olympia, if you FINALLY have Moonblast, you can do something...lower her Special Attack. Her mons have Calm Mind, and even Florges can't break those guys. Against Wulfric it takes down Avalugg...lol. Against Team Flare it's really nice due to them using Dark and Fighting mons a lot, but stay away from Toxicroak. Florges can actually take down half of Lysandre's team. Against the E4...you have horrible matchups all around, unless you Petal Dance Siebold or something, but Gyarados has Dragon Dance...It could do something to Drasna, but Dragalgae hurts it and I don't think Moonblast OHKOs her mons.
Additional Comments: Even though I used EXP. Share, it was STILL horribly weak. Just stay away from this thing.


Squirtle - B Tier
Availability:
Lumiose City, from Professor Sycamore, immediately after Santalune Gym.
Stats: They are defensively-inclined, although Mega Blastoise has amazing stats overall, especially its Base 135 Special Attack. It's not too fast though.
Typing: Water, which is the most-useful in-game typing thanks to Surf and Waterfall. It gets STAB Water Pulse, which is boosted by Mega Launcher, and has amazing neutral coverage. It also only has two weaknesses, Electric and Grass.
Movepool: You are stuck with Water Gun as an STAB until lv. 28, and if you're not using EXP. Share that's after Grant. It gets Return by TM, which will be its best attack until Water Pulse at lv. 28. Then you get Aqua Tail at 32 and Skull Bash at 36. You get Surf by HM, and as Blastoise you get Hydro Pump late-game and Dark Pulse by TM late-game, although for Lumiose->Grant->probably Geosenge you are pitifully weak, and when you beat Korrina you get Surf and that's it until lv. 60 or after Snowbelle Gym.
Major Battles: Does reasonably well against Grant, although you might have to grind a bit for Water Pulse at lv. 28 if you're not using EXP. Share. Korrina sets up on you with Power-Up Punch, so avoid her, and obviously stay away from Ramos and Clemont. Once you get to Valerie, you're already lv. 40 or so if you haven't been using the EXP. Share, and although you might struggle to break Sylveon, you can reasonably beat her. For Olympia you have Surf and Bite, which aren't the best moves to be using, and you may lack power, although you would probably be fine. You should avoid Wulfric's Abomasnow, but other than that you're fine. After you get the ability to use Waterfall outside of battle, get the Dark Pulse TM, and also teach it Ice Beam, so it can actually have coverage. It's not too bad against Team Flare thanks to the Fire-types. In the Elite Four, you can own Drasna with Ice Beam, crush Malva, and take down some of Wikstrom's Pokemon, like Probopass and Aegislash, the latter with Dark Pulse.
Additional Comments: If you don't mind having Water Gun as your only STAB for 18 levels this guy is for you. He does well later in the game, but really struggles earlier.


Riolu - S-Tier
Availability:
As early as Route 22, albeit a bit rare. You also get one from Korrina as a gift later.
Stats: Lucario is a very powerful mixed attacker. Base 110+ stats are nothing to scoff at. Mega Lucario has 145/140/112 offensive stats, with Adaptability too. Its defenses may lack a bit but if you play it right you will never need to take a hit with this thing.
Typing: Fighting is a very good offensive type despite the Fairies. Steel adds a defensive typing and allows it to take some hits, although you may never need to let it do so. Too bad it gets no good Steel STAB...
Movepool: Riolu starts with Quick Attack and soon gets Force Palm at lv. 15. At that point you should evolve, so you get Lucario stats, unless you want to wait until lv. 30 for Reversal (not worth it). You can evolve whenever since it evolves by happiness, so you should have a Lucario at Grant and should be able to laugh at him. It gets Power-Up Punch via TM and Bone Rush at lv. 29, and also learns Swords Dance. Once you get the Lucarionite, Force Palm is all you need until Aura Sphere at lv. 42, which will carry you through the rest of the game. Calm Mind is at lv. 47 if you need it (hint: you don't), and Close Combat at 55, Dragon Pulse at 60, and Extremespeed at 65 are all quite overkill.
Major Battles: Struggles against Viola, but laughs at Grant. Do not use it against Korrina, as it is weak to her STAB. After you get Mega Evolution, you can literally solo the rest of Kalos with this guy--he kills Ramos, not even minding Weepinbell thanks to Power-Up Punch and Bone Rush, destroys all of Team Flare with Bone Rush and Force Palm, can Bone Rush Clemont to death (it might even be able to beat Emolga with Aura Sphere in Mega form!), does the same to Valerie and Olympia, and laughs at Wulfric. Against the E4 watch out for Malva and her Talonflame, but otherwise it can cruise through her too. Siebold only has Gyarados for him to fear, and it laughs at Wikstrom, especially since Bone Rush is non-contact. Drasna may be a bit tough thanks to Altaria and Noivern, but I OHKOed my Rival's Altaria with a +2 Mega Close Combat...so...
Additional Comments: At least use the gift one from Korrina if you don't feel like catching a Riolu.
 
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DHR-107

Robot from the Future
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Just want to add to what I've said previously to Honedge, I never evolved mine into Aegislash, and I never felt it was too weak. Infact I tended to go back to it a lot of the time in order to have good matchups. It was the first time ever I think I went through the Elite Four with 2 non fully evolved mons (Doublade and Floette). Neither felt bad, but Doublade is crazy good with Eviolite. My set was Iron head/Sacred Sword/Shadow Claw/Swords Dance though I barely ever used Swords Dance and Doublade could take hits like a champ.

I think the fact on its own Doublade *hard walls* a Gym (Korrina, the only things that can hit it are a foresight Machoke and a Hariyama with Knock Off), and isn't too shabby in any of the other gyms is pretty special imo. I never felt once it was weak (which is unusual) and it tended ot be one of my strongest mons.

AOPSUser I agree totally with your Flabebe tier placing. I used mine and never evolved it (with Rocky Helmet) and it was surprisngly solid but certainly not mind blowing. Also I agree with Fletchling (Imo it's probably more C) purely because it has such shitty stabs until it evolves (Best of Aerial Ace or Fly until then) which is where it becomes awesome and wrecks everything.
 
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