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Revenge of the Penguin
- Thread starter Adoleo
- Start date
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Threat List
Aerodactyl: Nidoqueen can Ice Beam and Scizor can come in and Bullet Punch.
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Alakazam: Scizor usually Bullet Punches or U-turns. Celebi also checks it should Scizor fail.
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Azelf: Lead variants can be difficult if I mispredict. Sweeping variants are handled by Scizor.
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Breloom: These can really take a toll on my team if played correctly. I usually switch to Celebi for the Spore / Leech Seed and try T-waveing so Scizor can U-turn.
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Dragonite: Nidoqueen can Ice Beam if its a lead and Flygon can outrage if its not a DDnite.
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Dugtrio: Don't really see these that often, But Celebi can handle these with ease if its locked into NVE move. Scizor and Flygon can both revenge.
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Electivire: Not really a problem unless it has a speed boost. Flygon can revenge if it hasn't gotten a speed boost.
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Empoleon: Celebi handles the ones that run Grass Knot and Flygon can revenge the standard ones.
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Flygon: Scizor Bullet Punches or Flygon if it is locked into Earthquake.
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Gengar: Scizor can pick it off with Bullet Punch. Flygon can revenge non scarf variants. If choiced and locked into Shadow Ball Empoleon can set up.
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Gyarados: One of the biggest threats to my team. My only real answer is Flygon and an if Stone Edge misses I'm pretty much dead. Celebi can T-wave and try stalling it out.
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Heatran: Subtrans can be annoying but Flygon can deal with them decently. If locked into Fire Blast my own Heatran can threaten it.
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Heracross: Good thing these don't see much use these days. My only safe switch in is Nidoqueen(if still alive). Celebi can switch in on predicted CC's but risks coming in on Megahorn.
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Infernape: If Scizor or Flygon are dead and this comes in, I'm pretty much dead. Flygon can EQ and Scizor can BP ones with low Hp.
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Jirachi: Lead variants are handled by Flygon coming in on Trick. Mix variants also handled by Flygon and Heatran.
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Jolteon: Flygon will EQ it all day.
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Kingdra: Flygon can revenge kill it and Empoleon can set up on some variants.
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Latias: Scizor traps it. Flygon can revenge with Outrage. As a last resort Heatran can explode on ones w/o Surf.
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Lucario: SD variants can sweep through my entire team. I usually force it to CC a couple of times and try revenging with Scizor.
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Machamp: The only safe switch ins are Nidoqueen and Celebi. But Nidooqueen will be wore down too quickly with all the switch ins.
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Magnezone: Flygon can revenge with EQ and Empoleon can set up on ones locked into Hidden Power.
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Mamoswine: Scizor BP's and Celebi can fire off Leaf Storms.
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Metagross: Agiligross can sweep through my team if the run a good chunk of speed EVs. Leads are handled by Nidoqueen. and Flygon revenges standard Agiligross.
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Porygon-Z: Not seen much but Scizor switches in and Superpowers. Heatran can come in and fire off STAB Fire Blasts and Empoleon can set up on ones locked into Tri Attack / Dark Pulse.
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Rhyperior: Celebi handles ones without Megahron and Heatran can fire off Earh Powers.
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Salamence: Mixmence variants are a real problem. My only real way off taking it down is let LO recoil takes it toll and BP with Scizor. Flygon can revenge non DD vaiants and Empoleon can set up on and choiced one.
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Scizor: Heatran switches in and Fire Blasts. If they come in on Celebi, HP Fire will do away with them.
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Starmie: LO Variants can be annoying. Celebi can fire off Leaf Storm or Flygon can revenge kill it.
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Togekiss: Empoleon sets on ones lacking T-wave. Flygon can revenge kill it.
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Tyranitar: Nidoqueen can 2HKO lead variants iirc. Scizor and Flygon can deal with DD variants.
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Weavile: Scizor will deal with it any day off the weak.
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Yanmega: Heatran can come in on ones without HP Ground. Scizor can fire off BP's and Flygon is a last resort. Empoleon can set up on ones without HP Ground.
Defensive Threats
Blissey: Heatran lures it out and explodes. Scizor can Pursuit/Superpower. Empoleon can set up on ones without Seismic Toss if Toxic Spikes are in play.
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Bronzong: Scizor and Flygon chip away at its health with U-turn and Heatran spams Fire Blast.
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Celebi: Same as above.
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Cresselia: Scizor can trap it and Flygon chips away at its health with U-turn. Empoleon can set up on most variants.
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Donphan: Celebi handles this with ease.
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Foretress: Heatran spams Fire Blast and Empoleon can set up on ones without EQ. Celebi can also HP Fire.
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Gliscor: These can be really annoying. Leads are handled by Nidoqueen and the heavily defensive ones need to be handled carefully.
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Hippowdon: Celebi can fire off Leaf Storms and see it run in fear.
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Skarmory: Heatran comes in immediately when one of these comes out.
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Snorlax: Curse variants are annoying. Scizor uses Superpower and if 2 layers of TS are up Empoleon can set up on most variants.
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Suicune: If it has a couple of Calm Minds in it can be a problem. Celebi Leaf Storms while Heatran explodes.
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Swampert: Easy pickings for Celebi.
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Tentacruel: If lured in Heatran can fire off HP Electrics and Flygon can EQ.
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Vaporeon: Celebi again with Leaf Strom and to a lesser extent Heatran with HP Electric.
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Zapdos: Really annoying. I have no real answers. Heatran can explode and Fire Blast until no tomorrow and Flygon as a last resort with Stone Edge.
Threat List
Offensive Threats
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Defensive Threats
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Hmm just a short rate but
I've noticed a slight Bulky Gyarados weakness. The Bulky Gyarados i have used in great success ( which i found ) from this thread can really wreck havoc in your team. Thankfully , it doesn't get much room to set up and isn't common but i'd still suggest some changes.
At +1 , it OHKOs Celebi with Bounce and Flygon's Stone Edge fails to net the KO on it , allowing it to hit you with Waterfall or get another Dragon Dance up. I'd really suggest a really simple fix to that Bulky Gyarados weakness. I'd suggest you change Stone Edge on Flygon to Thunderpunch. Thunderpunch , is a guaranteed KO on Gyarados which is great although Stone Edge , can be useful to hit Gyarados and other Flying types but has really poor accuracy and a Bulky Gyarados can take a Stone Edge with some health to spare.
Another minor change i'd like to suggest is to run Max speed on your Flygon. It allows you to tie with other neutral base 100 Pokemon at +1 and you could really find it handy as a winning a speed tie could win you a game.
Oh and i'd prefer Hidden Power [Electric] on Heatran instead of Grass since you could net surprise kills on Gyarados. With Toxic Spikes + Celebi , i don't really think Swampert is that big of a hassle but its really up to you.
Edit : If you want to keep Stone Edge on Flygon , another thing you could do to fix the Bulky Gyarados weakness is Scarfing your Heatran and keep Hidden Power [Electric].
I've noticed a slight Bulky Gyarados weakness. The Bulky Gyarados i have used in great success ( which i found ) from this thread can really wreck havoc in your team. Thankfully , it doesn't get much room to set up and isn't common but i'd still suggest some changes.
At +1 , it OHKOs Celebi with Bounce and Flygon's Stone Edge fails to net the KO on it , allowing it to hit you with Waterfall or get another Dragon Dance up. I'd really suggest a really simple fix to that Bulky Gyarados weakness. I'd suggest you change Stone Edge on Flygon to Thunderpunch. Thunderpunch , is a guaranteed KO on Gyarados which is great although Stone Edge , can be useful to hit Gyarados and other Flying types but has really poor accuracy and a Bulky Gyarados can take a Stone Edge with some health to spare.
Another minor change i'd like to suggest is to run Max speed on your Flygon. It allows you to tie with other neutral base 100 Pokemon at +1 and you could really find it handy as a winning a speed tie could win you a game.
Oh and i'd prefer Hidden Power [Electric] on Heatran instead of Grass since you could net surprise kills on Gyarados. With Toxic Spikes + Celebi , i don't really think Swampert is that big of a hassle but its really up to you.
Edit : If you want to keep Stone Edge on Flygon , another thing you could do to fix the Bulky Gyarados weakness is Scarfing your Heatran and keep Hidden Power [Electric].
I never knew Flygon got Thunderpunch. I'll test it out and see what happens. Swampert hasn't been much of a threat lately, so I'll stick with HP Electric for now.
Edit: Threat List is finally up.
Really interesting team. I like BaitTran a lot, good idea.
Celebi can a be a huge help for your Gyarados weakness. You can use the standard 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe Bold EVs, and I'd give it Grass Knot > Leaf Storm for repeated attacks. Celebi is one of the best Gyarados counters, only fearing those with Bounce. However, it can usually still survive and paralyze it pretty much ending its sweep. I wouldn't be too worried about it because of Stealth Rock and Quick Attack Scizor.
Since you have no real answer to SD Lucario, don't give Scizor Pursuit. Lucario can all too easily set up on Pursuit. Although it can still set up on Quick Attack, it would take a lot more damage than it would from Pursuit.
Good luck!
Celebi can a be a huge help for your Gyarados weakness. You can use the standard 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe Bold EVs, and I'd give it Grass Knot > Leaf Storm for repeated attacks. Celebi is one of the best Gyarados counters, only fearing those with Bounce. However, it can usually still survive and paralyze it pretty much ending its sweep. I wouldn't be too worried about it because of Stealth Rock and Quick Attack Scizor.
Since you have no real answer to SD Lucario, don't give Scizor Pursuit. Lucario can all too easily set up on Pursuit. Although it can still set up on Quick Attack, it would take a lot more damage than it would from Pursuit.
Good luck!
Bounce will be the bane of your Celebi, and probably the rest of your team. Try adding protect in their to solve the bounce problem. Also, Leech seed will eventually force Gyarados to switch out resulting in some SR damage as it comes back in. That could help solve your Gyarados problem.
I'll test out those Celebi EVs and see how it goes. Only reason I went with the Tinkerbell spread was its ability to OHKO Scizor with Hp fire. After being swept by Lucario coming in on Pursuit, I've decided to go with Quick Attack.
I really dislike Leech Seed on Celebi. If I use Leech Seed I'll need to replace Recover which gives me a reliable healing move or HP Fire which is needed for taking out/weakening Scizor.
The thing is, most scizor you will face will be holding a CB. You can use protect to know what set they run. If he pursuits just stay in because you know it's more than likely to hold a CB. LO variants may be a bit tricky. As you stay in just use Leech seed and recover. Protect when needed. It's that simple. I would recommend Leech Seed over hp fire as it forces more switches and your team already handles Scizor well. SD variants won't use superpower on a Celebi so take the advantage and switch to heatran netting you a weakened switch in or a fried scizor.
The thing is with Protect, Celebi can't do anything to a Forretress or Skarmory that switch in, if an opposing player knows my set. Also with Leech Seed, Recover, and Protect I'm left with a choice of attacking or paralysis support. Both Thunder Wave and Leaf/Grass Knot help in aiding empoleon sweep.
why would you even use a Celebi against those two when you have a Heatran? They are usually out early game where your Heatran can take care of them. Also, HP fire is in the analysis as a highly recommended move. Most people that actually check the analysis will not switch them in on Celebi. Thunder wave does help empoleon, but take into account that toxic spikes might get in the way and the only things you may hit with it are Gyarados and Salamence. The rest of them are pretty slow. I might be missing others but those are all I can think of now, and Empoleon won't want to set up on things with earthquake even if it outspeeds. You'd be relying on luck there, unless you get something else to kill them, like flygon who is going to be seen quite often meaning the opponent can easily predict the switch in. Grass knot already handles Gyarados anyway doing around 40%-50% to it (2KO with SR) so Salamence is to worry about and Celebi won't like an outrage or Draco meteor so it'd be hard to paralyze it.
Since i dont feel like arguing anymore I'll try Leech Seed over HP Fire.
Edit: I also switched Celebi to teh defensive set recommended by Metanite as it has been reliably taking down Gyarados.