Resource RU Viability Rankings Thread

[Kableye]

I can't say I've had this problem specficslly but by those numbers couldn't slowking stall out boomburst with a few proper switches for regenerator? Switching into... Well.. any steel type with reasonable special bulk (doesn't get the garunteed 3hko on aggron locked into boomburst, stelix with no Special defense investment gets 3HKOed at best by it, brongzong laughs, and escavalier misses the 2hko even without assault vest.) Add in that all three of explouds other typical coverage moves do less than 20% to 252/96+ slowking (the one you stated in your example) and you would think that slowking dropping has made exploud much less viable as there is now a fairly solid answer to the choice speced version to both its main stab (almost anything that resists it can take it a few times) and to any of its coverage moves in slowking, who can heal off the damage easily with either regenerator or slack off. Of which using the latter exploud locked into the wrong move becomes set up fodder for calm mind varients. And if played properly and carefully can even take on it locked into boomburst as at +1 with the 252/96+ example you used the 2hko is not garunteed after leftevers recovery.

All in all I think that having such a solid answer to its coverage moves, one of the big things that makes it so threatening as it can OHKO most of the mons that can switch into its STAB, exploud has gotten weaker on the whole.

Ok I've read this post many times and I think what you are trying to say is 1. Exploud has to rely predicting switches to beat it's counters and 2. Boomburst can be stalled out because it doesn't have infinite PP.
The second part is true, but that's true for literally every wall breaker. Besides for a move of its strength, Boomburst actually has a lot of PP. Also because Slowking is able to pivot in to scout of a coverage move simply means that it now gets a damage on Slowking and and the steel type you'd go into next. Relating to the second part, I don't think people realize just how spammable of a move Boomburst actually is. There are no immunities in Exploud's case, no 4x resist and every BB switchin lacks their own recovery. Exploud's main issues are its speed and typing. But because right now I've been seeing lot of balanced lacking Wish passers and teams with Steelix as their only actual BB resist, I agree that Exploud should rise to A-. I also think Silk Scarf Exploud is probably it's better set but I haven't had the time to test it throughly.

 

[Harald Glööökler]

Pleaose stopp the discussion about stunfisk its completely outclassed by steelix and outclassed by every other rock setter in tge tier. Torterra normal steelix rhyperior mrupt and even piloswine are all better than stunfisk. You mention some pokemon stopping steelix but all of them win against stunfisk too. There isnt a reason why to play stunfisk in ru.

Next thing is exploud. Its really not good enough for a rank. Its easy revengable vecuase of its low speed. Every wallbreaker can punch holes in the opponents team but in my means there are better wallbteaker as for example hitmonlee. You have to prrdict really well with it against stall and versus things like offebse it isnt that good.

A nomination of my own is mawile to c rank. It has access to sr has intimidate a great typing a livot move in baton pass... ir has the ability to check tyrantrum while still being able to beat many dark types. Its offensive sets maybe sd are extremely powerful as a wallbreaker while being able to create momentum with bp and revenge killing some mons with sucker punch. While it still has downsides such as the bad special bulk it has really enough niches to being ranked.

Kabutops to b- its an extremely hard hitting wallbreaker with priority good bulk and even pretty great speed. It is in my means by far the best spinner for offense. It has the ability to check evrry flying type such as fletch for offense wile being ablr to beat many pokemon just because of priority and much power.

And wtf why is fletch only a rank it has the strongest priority andd wow and sd. I think its only not in s because its that stealth rock weak. Back to a+

 

[phantom]

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Note: I'm not going to elabarote on everything because that will take way too long, but I will explain the reasoning for the stuff that got a lot of attention.


Aromatisse:

This is staying where it is. With the sudden rise in Dark-types in the tier, and the subsequent Fighting-types used to combat them, Aromatisse is more useful than ever now. In addition, while it's still very common, many teams have been shifting away from Steelix in favor of Bronzong in order to check Mega Abomasnow, which further bolsters its viability.

Hariyama:

Up to C+.

Kabutops:

Up to C+, but no higher. Since when is this "the best spinner on offense"? I have no idea how multiple people can actually say that when it's worse @ spinning than Hitmonlee, which isn't even that good of a spinner in the first place. Kabutops loses to more Stealth Rock users, gives way more free switch-ins to dangerous Pokemon like Virizion, is nearly useless vs defensive teams, and has a significantly less useful priority move. Literally the only reason to use this over Hitmonlee is if you want a semi-reliable Fletchinder check and a shaky Fire-resist that can spin for your offensive Spike-stacking team. Lessening the gap in viability between it and Hitmonlee is fair, however, seeing as how it does have some uses over it, but overall it's just worse pick as an offensive spinner over Hitmonlee.

Vileplume:

Staying where it is. This is a lot like Kabutops where it's being overhyped for a minuscule niche over its competitors, except the gap between it and Amoonguss isn't nearly as wide as Kabutops and Hitmonlee. Literally the only reason to use this over Amoonguss is because of Moonblast (and I guess Aromatherapy, even though you can't use both), and Moonblast is really only good for targeting Scrafty. There are much better Pokemon capable of checking Dark-types that aren't nearly eclipsed by other Pokemon. Let me put it this way: if you're relying on Vileplume to beat Dark-types like Scrafty, then you're team has a whole host of other issues. Vileplume isn't necessarily bad, just outclassed in a lot of ways and is a generally team specific Pokemon, and its ranking perfectly reflects that. Let's be real, you're only using this over Amoonguss if for some reason your team is horrifically weak to Scrafty, and if Vileplume is your Scrafty check, then your team in general is going to struggle with Dark-types as a whole seeing as how you aren't using something more capable of checking them, like a Fighting-type or a Fairy.

Absol:

Staying where it is. I was pretty unsure about this, but after getting a lot of feedback on it for the past few days, the general consensus was that it should stay A+, which is best for now.

Mawile:

Not getting ranked. Pretty unconvinced about this thing's utility. I'm not sure what this thing is capable of doing that another Steel or Fairy is incapable of, minus being a Fairy that is setting up Stealth Rock, which sounds cute in all, except its overall crumby stats and propensity to give a free switch-in to the best Pokemon in the tier while being incapable of fending off the premier hazard removers in the tier make it an overall mediocre Stealth Rock user and Pokemon in general. I'd have to see a couple of replays showing this thing's unique niche in action before I consider ranking it. I guess the biggest problem I see with it is that I'm not even sure what it's reliably beating that another Pokemon wouldn't be able to.

Stunfisk:

Not getting ranked. As others pointed out, this thing is pretty outclassed in a lot of ways. I've tried using it myself, but always found another Stealth Rock user to be much more useful and so I always ended up replacing Stunfisk for something else.

Delphox:

Up to B+.

Shiftry:

Down to C+

Gurdurr:

up to A-

Discussion points:

-Should Mawile be ranked, and if so what rank

-Poliwrath up to B+ or stay where it is

-Roselia down to B- or stay in B

-Uxie down to B or stay in B+

-Spiritomb down to B or stay in B+

-Amoonguss up to B+ or stay in B

 

[Hopeee]

I think Mawile should be C rank. I've used it quite a bit recently, and it can be pretty good. It checks threats in the tier, such as Ttrum, Absol w/out Fire Blast, Defensive Druddigon, Scrafty, Virizion, etc. However, the things that set Mawile apart from it's major competition, Granbull, is its access to Stealth Rock and how it can also BP SD boosts. However, the main question about Mawile is if those sets really make it worth using over Granbull, which has better bulk, Heal Bell and EQ. The answer to that is, if you need a mon to check Dark types and need Rocks at the same time, Mawile can do a good job with that.

However, if you are to use Mawile, it has to have wish support. Without that, it really is dead weight after a few hits. It also has pretty bad bulk, with it only being 50/85/55, although that is helped with Intimidate

 

[Lord Death Man]

I agree that Amoonguss should move up to B+. It reliably checks all sorts of stuff that are just incredibly difficult to check. I really want to bring up the option of just not using an item on it, which makes it a much more reliable check versus knock off spam, like Absol and Scrafty. It's a good bulky mon and spore/stun spore mean that, despite it's relative passivity, it provides sigificant support to balance teams. It also sort of walls Tangrowth and SD Virizion (no one is using Zen Headbutt with Fletchinder and Togetic around) which are monsters.

Spiritomb should stay B+ in my opinion because it's one of the two best ghosts, and having a ghost type is a really big benefit to a lot of teams because it stops people from spamming fighting moves, especially High Jump Kick, but also Superpower and the rarer Close Combat, and can trap choice-locked mons who use these. It also soft counters (I think?) Meloetta and traps Bronzong, which can be pains for a lot of teams. Taunt/Foul Play can both help make it considerably less passive, so it's not as big of a momentum suck as it can seem at first.

Haven't touched the other ones but have never been impressed by Roselia or Uxie, and even without using Poliwrath it's obvious that it compresses roles immensely based on just it's typing.

I can't say I've had this problem specficslly but by those numbers couldn't slowking stall out boomburst with a few proper switches for regenerator? Switching into... Well.. any steel type with reasonable special bulk (doesn't get the garunteed 3hko on aggron locked into boomburst, stelix with no Special defense investment gets 3HKOed at best by it, brongzong laughs, and escavalier misses the 2hko even without assault vest.) Add in that all three of explouds other typical coverage moves do less than 20% to 252/96+ slowking (the one you stated in your example) and you would think that slowking dropping has made exploud much less viable as there is now a fairly solid answer to the choice speced version to both its main stab (almost anything that resists it can take it a few times) and to any of its coverage moves in slowking, who can heal off the damage easily with either regenerator or slack off. Of which using the latter exploud locked into the wrong move becomes set up fodder for calm mind varients. And if played properly and carefully can even take on it locked into boomburst as at +1 with the 252/96+ example you used the 2hko is not garunteed after leftevers recovery.

All in all I think that having such a solid answer to its coverage moves, one of the big things that makes it so threatening as it can OHKO most of the mons that can switch into its STAB, exploud has gotten weaker on the whole.

Steelix only has a chance to dodge the 3hko if it's mega'd when it comes in. Exploud isn't all that threatened by Steelix, so it can just keep using Boomburst. Everything that can tank a Boomburst is terrified by it's coverage moves except exceptionally bulky specially defensive mons that you really shouldn't be using, like spdef AV Slowking. Oh, and I guess Heatproof Bronzong? I guess.

Zong and Registeel are it's most reliable checks/counters but even then they don't threaten Exploud all that significantly, so if they're weakened a reasonable amount (considering these are also your rockers, getting the 40 or so % chip on either of them isn't overwhelmingly difficult), the Exploud user doesn't even have to predict. I'm unsure what spreads people run on Aggron currently, but I think most are banded without much bulk, which lets it switch in once at best. Sort of mixed on it rising, but it's borderline impossible to outright *wall* Exploud.

 

[Umen Berker]

Steelix only has a chance to dodge the 3hko if it's mega'd when it comes in. Exploud isn't all that threatened by Steelix, so it can just keep using Boomburst. Everything that can tank a Boomburst is terrified by it's coverage moves except exceptionally bulky specially defensive mons that you really shouldn't be using, like spdef AV Slowking. Oh, and I guess Heatproof Bronzong? I guess.

Zong and Registeel are it's most reliable checks/counters but even then they don't threaten Exploud all that significantly, so if they're weakened a reasonable amount (considering these are also your rockers, getting the 40 or so % chip on either of them isn't overwhelmingly difficult), the Exploud user doesn't even have to predict. I'm unsure what spreads people run on Aggron currently, but I think most are banded without much bulk, which lets it switch in once at best. Sort of mixed on it rising, but it's borderline impossible to outright *wall* Exploud.

I understand that most of the mons that resist boomburst properly fear its coverage moves as 90% can be OHKOd by them. But with a slowking with minimal special defense investment (a 252/96+ spread with the rest in defense or special attack as you like) slowking is taking a little over 55% from one boomburst and under 20% from any of explouds coverage moves even while it's specs (the only real exploud set that I've seen people run)

What this means is you don't have to predict what move its going to throw as slowking is always a safe switch in to figure out which move its locked into. As even when you take that 55% hit and another but with rocks you can easily switch out to your boomburst resist (which you need unless your plan is to just get stomped by exploud) and regenerator garuntees that slowking can still be useful later in the match.

This means a team with a moderately specially defensive slowking can be garunteed to not loose a Mon to a poorly predicted move as slowking can eat a boomburst and heal off the damage or tank a coverage move and then possibly set up on exploud.

 

[lighthouses]

Taking "around 55%"[(252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Slowking: 226-267 (57.3 - 67.7%)] with rocks up means you can't do this forever, that and the fact that you would need to run some absurdly specially deffensive normal resists to be able to switch into boomburst after you scout, you mentioned steelix on your example which takes about 30% and isn't a threat to exploud at all, meaning it can just click boomburst again if it really wants to.

 

[Miyami~~]

Mawile: I feel like this is another one of those "compression" Pokémon, due to being able to check dark and rock in a single slot, while also being able to use SR and SD + BP. It's got flaws, like some awful defensive stats and getting word down, but it also has intimidate to help against physical attackers. I'd say it should go to C-.

 

[empire370]

im new here so i dont have much thoughts on the nominations, but i do support poliwrath and amoongus going up to b+
tbh i can see wrath being a- but that might be a bit of a stretch:
I think were gettinng off topic with exploud it beating slowking is not the point of the argument its if it should rise to a- which i think it should due to its amazing wallbreaking abilities, being able to safetly click boomburst in many sitautions, threating anything that can take boomburst due its coverage i just feel its more vialble than most of the other mons in its rank.

 

[Cheryl.]

I support the Poliwrath nomination for going up to B+. Sort of like Granbull for me, I've been using Wrath on many of my teams because it's able to check so many types with it's typing, bulk, and ability Water Absorb. It's a Fire check, a Dark check, a Fighting check, a Rock check (252 HP 252 Def Relaxed wrath literally only gets 3HKOed by LO Aerial Ace from Dactyl lol), Ground check, and even a Water check (gets walled by jelli tho)! This thing is so anti-meta right now that it definetely deserves a rise. (Oh yeah and it's sort of versatile too because it can run a specially offensive set with Lefties/Specs other than the RestTalk set.)

I would like to nominate Accelgor for a rise to B/B+. I don't know how anybody would think it's B-, it's really good right now. The lead set is still really good, as it sets up Spikes really nicely, can kill something with Final Gambit, and hurt set-up sweepers with Encore. But the set I've REALLY been liking is the Life Orb set. Accelgor's 145 speed and awesome coverage in moves like Energy Ball for Water types (it also can 2HKO Qwilfish, so that's nice), Focus Blast for Steel types, and a choice of Hidden Power, like Ice for Flygon, or Rock for Fletchinder. Accelgor's 145 speed makes this set a nightmare for offense, as it can even outspeed some Scarfed threats like Tyrantrum, and a lot of teams don't prepare for it, as they expect it to be the lead set, sometimes I even lead with the LO set and catch stuff like Exploud off guard. Also, Bug is a really good offensive typing right now due to the influx of Dark types.While Accelgor's frailty and SR weakness hurts it, it's so deadly between it's sets that I believe it deserves a rise.

 

[Umen Berker]

Taking "around 55%"[(252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Slowking: 226-267 (57.3 - 67.7%)] with rocks up means you can't do this forever, that and the fact that you would need to run some absurdly specially deffensive normal resists to be able to switch into boomburst after you scout, you mentioned steelix on your example which takes about 30% and isn't a threat to exploud at all, meaning it can just click boomburst again if it really wants to.

Assuming stealth rocks on both sides of the field both tyrantrum and aggron can tank enough boombursts to KO back (one for ttrum before outspeeding and koing, and two hits for aggron with nothing but 252 hp aggron and koing back with head smash even without a band to back it up) just as examples of things that can take a predicted boomburst and threaten it back.

 

[atomicllamas]

Yeah I don't like to delete posts in here, but there is honestly just 0 point to using Relicanth which is completely outclassed by Aggron and Tyrantrum (CB Aggron also 2HKOes Mega Lix, and you are much more likely to actually switch Mega Steelix into that). There was a pretty significant tier shift pretty recently, so it would be nice to stick to pokemon with a significant niche in the meta game, something I can't say is true of Relicanth.

As for the topics of discussion, I've been using Mawile, it probably deserves C+ because it works as a good pivot on balance w/ Baton Pass + Intimidate and Stealth Rock, it also is a really good switch in to Tyratrum and Mega Glalie, and counters SD aboma pretty well (I've been using Iron Head and SD in the last slots cause SD pass is cute). But the amount of role compression it offers is insane, a worse Granbull with Rock/Ice Resist, SR and Baton Pass rather than Heal Bell, is really useful, if its BST weren't trash this would be an RU staple.

 

[termi]

Poliwrath should definitely go up to B+, it's an amazing role compressor atm, being able to reliably counter most Water types (and being a Scald sponge) as well as the massively important Dark types (only ZHeadbutt Shark and Play Rough Absol can really get past it somewhat decently) AND beating Steel types like Durant, Steelix, and Escavalier easily. It's also one of the few things that can reliably sponge Tyrantrum's Head Smash. The ability to beat all these things and more with one teamslot combined with the fact that RestTalk keeps it healthy and it can burn and phaze shit to make it not deadweight makes it a great choice on balance and bulky offense.

Uxie seems kinda meh rn, the influx of Dark spam as well as the bad matchup vs a lot of SR setters just makes it not worth running most of the time imo.

Amoonguss should stay in B, I still feel like it doesn't bring enough to the table to justify using it most of the time. Tangrowth fits way better on more offensively inclined teams due to a bigger offensive movepool and higher offensive stats and on defensive teams Amoonguss never seems to do much outside of providing defensive synergy and being annoying (and Spore on more stall-ish teams is just nah), so it only really fits on certain balanced teams and even then I feel like it's never doing all that much other than tanking hits. I've never been a big fan of it, really, and I see little reason to move it up now.

For some reason Vileplume is in C rank and it's not justified at all, the somewhat mediocre Amoonguss is still a way better choice than Plume due to not having to use Synthesis every other turn and giving free switchins, as well as the fact that it doesn't have Spore or HP Fire (if you run Sleep Powder or HP Fire you are literally running an inferior Amoonguss) so Steel types come in for free. Moonblast is its niche because it can beat Scrafty that way, but Scrafty isn't nearly the threat it used to be, so whatever. Down to D.

Golbat is ass and should also drop to D. It has pretty much no niche at this point, it's just complete deadweight.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Cool thing to see people actually using Mawile with good results but onto another nomination

Poliwrath should definitely go up to B+, it's an amazing role compressor atm, being able to reliably counter most Water types (and being a Scald sponge) as well as the massively important Dark types (only ZHeadbutt Shark and Play Rough Absol can really get past it somewhat decently) AND beating Steel types like Durant, Steelix, and Escavalier easily. It's also one of the few things that can reliably sponge Tyrantrum's Head Smash. The ability to beat all these things and more with one teamslot combined with the fact that RestTalk keeps it healthy and it can burn and phaze shit to make it not deadweight makes it a great choice on balance and bulky offense.

Uxie seems kinda meh rn, the influx of Dark spam as well as the bad matchup vs a lot of SR setters just makes it not worth running most of the time imo.

Amoonguss should stay in B, I still feel like it doesn't bring enough to the table to justify using it most of the time. Tangrowth fits way better on more offensively inclined teams due to a bigger offensive movepool and higher offensive stats and on defensive teams Amoonguss never seems to do much outside of providing defensive synergy and being annoying (and Spore on more stall-ish teams is just nah), so it only really fits on certain balanced teams and even then I feel like it's never doing all that much other than tanking hits. I've never been a big fan of it, really, and I see little reason to move it up now.

For some reason Vileplume is in C rank and it's not justified at all, the somewhat mediocre Amoonguss is still a way better choice than Plume due to not having to use Synthesis every other turn and giving free switchins, as well as the fact that it doesn't have Spore or HP Fire (if you run Sleep Powder or HP Fire you are literally running an inferior Amoonguss) so Steel types come in for free. Moonblast is its niche because it can beat Scrafty that way, but Scrafty isn't nearly the threat it used to be, so whatever. Down to D.

Golbat is ass and should also drop to D. It has pretty much no niche at this point, it's just complete deadweight.

I think Vileplume is up there for it offensive set which is Moonblast, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb and Synthesis

 

[P is For Penguin]

Mawile ---> C/C+
Ive seen a couple people using this and ive seen it have decent success. I used it in the past at the scrafty/kingdra drop and it was able to get its job done then too. It has intimidate which is amazing in the fact that it helps it do its job in checking physical attackers. It also can compress roles it has access to SR and has priority in Sucker Punch. Fairy stab is amazing right now and it also has decent coverage moves if you dont want to run iron head.

Poliwrath ---> B+
As of right now this thing is a monster its able to check so many things due to its typing. Its also a great partner with mega-lix which helps its case due to the amount that mega-lix is used. The defensive rest talk set is imo by far the best set, using this set you have the ability to phase out setup mons and get hazard chip damage with circle throw. You are also able to fish for scald burns which can be helpful at sometimes. Lastly you have the ability to absorb status without fear due to running rest talk.

Roselia ---> B-
Atm rose just isnt as good as it once was. I feel as if it just cannot handle and deal with most of the meta for the time being.

Uxie ---> B
Influx of dark spam, and added variety of SR to chose from has really hurt this mon. I think the only time i would be running uxie now is if i wanted to run a weather team and have rocks or maybe if i wanted a rocks + screens setup. But for the most part it just falls short of all the rockers we currently have to chose from.

Spiritomb ---> B+
This is still a decent mon with trapping potential and the ability to spin block. I agree with ldm that it is a soft counter to melo and wow is always nice utility to bring to a team. Sucker/Pursuit mind games will always have to be thought about when tomb is on the field, I have also seen (very few) people running memento spiritomb which is kinda cool added support.

Amoonguss ---> B
Amoonguss should stay right here its in a good position it checks what it needs to check. But often times i would rather run tang because of better movepool stronger stats and solid defense without need for investment. The only thing amoonguss brings over other grass types is spore, which is annoying but sleep can sometimes be unreliable.

Addressing the above post:

Golbat ---> D
I completely agree, golbat just does nothing atm it is complete dead weight.

Vileplume ---> C
Vileplume and amoonguss are two different mons. Vileplume has 25 more base SpA and 20 Base higher speed, it is much easier to run an offensive version of plume over amoonguss. The only this amoonguss has over vileplume is the base hp and regnerator, i think it should stay C rank due to its decent offensive capabilities.

 

[Miyami~~]

Noms I'm supporting:

Golbat -> D
fully agree, it's completely useless and offers way too many free turns.

Uxie -> B
There's too much dark in the tier, and mesprit just does the job better, with higher bulk and better use of the Colbur berry.

 

[termi]

The thing is, while plume is outclassed by shroom defensively, I also feel it faces too much competition offensively from Tangrowth, for example. This mon not only has regenerator and higher bulk to make it more durable and lose less momentum (no need for synthesis), but it also has higher offensive stats and the possibility to become a nuke thanks to Leaf Storm. The only thing plume has is poison type, which might help it in checking some fighting types more reliably, but still I find it hard justifying using it over mons that have more utility overall. I'm not saying it's completely awful, but its niche is so extremely small that I feel even C rank is simply too generous.

 

[lighthouses]

Amoonguss is your designated fighting check, i would assume you want the mon on that slot to check the biggest number of fighting types?
I see a number of teams just running amoonguss since it works better(not even all that much) than vileplume most of the time and just not check scrafty at all, you can't just say: "scrafty isnt that big of a threat anymore" when it actually didn't really change all that much.
Role compression is really important, it's the only reason poliwrath is even good at the moment, which is a mon you seem to have some success with.

O yea, and i'd like to point out that uxie can run that set with imprison and ada hitmonlee creep to prevent it from getting knocked off which is pretty cool, being the only stealth rocker with the ability to pivot around(bar mawile) is also nice, i don't think it does the job better or worse than mesprit, i would like to pair mesprit with something like swords dance abomasnow or drapion while uxie is best suited to support glass cannons with switch-in opportunities like exploud and whatnot

 

[Oddish is the best]

Vileplume needs to stay C at the very least. While tank sets do work similar to Tangrowth, Vileplume has access to Moonblast, STAB sludge bomb, as well as immunity to toxic. While switching it in can be harder then say Amoonguss, Vileplume also threatens to KO fighting and dark types far easier then Amoonguss or Tangrowth while still checking Water and Ground types. If you look at the stuff in S and A+ you'll see that almost none of those pokemon can safely switch into Vileplume without fearing a 2hko (or 1hko really). Virizion can't set up on it if it doesn't have zen headbutt, Mega Aboma can't switch in because sludge bomb, Flyong is 2hko'd by moonblast, and can't 2hko back unless banded (aka a very uncommon set). I think people are underrating how difficult it can be to switch into plume if you don't have like a durant or bronzong (or when those threats are removed). So when using Vileplume you're essentially combining a ground/water/rock check with a soft dark/fighting/dragon check all in one slot which is great for teambuilding and the same cannot be said for Tangrowth and Amoonguss.



A large part of this has to do with Moonblast as it really is quite good coverage (with a 30% chance to hax special attackers too) and this combined with it's tank set let it dish out large damage while still avoiding crucial 1hko's from threats like Sharpedo and Absol, it's enough of a niche to keep it at least C as D rank is WAY underselling its value and usefullness in a match.


Here's a replay against a decent player showing the *potential* of Vileplume and showing why it can be difficult to switch into (and also effect spore) http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-309631864

 

[termi]

Vileplume needs to stay C at the very least. While tank sets do work similar to Tangrowth, Vileplume has access to Moonblast, STAB sludge bomb, as well as immunity to toxic. While switching it in can be harder then say Amoonguss, Vileplume also threatens to KO fighting and dark types far easier then Amoonguss or Tangrowth while still checking Water and Ground types. If you look at the stuff in S and A+ you'll see that almost none of those pokemon can safely switch into Vileplume without fearing a 2hko (or 1hko really). Virizion can't set up on it if it doesn't have zen headbutt, Mega Aboma can't switch in because sludge bomb, Flyong is 2hko'd by moonblast, and can't 2hko back unless banded (aka a very uncommon set). I think people are underrating how difficult it can be to switch into plume if you don't have like a durant or bronzong (or when those threats are removed). So when using Vileplume you're essentially combining a ground/water/rock check with a soft dark/fighting/dragon check all in one slot which is great for teambuilding and the same cannot be said for Tangrowth and Amoonguss.



A large part of this has to do with Moonblast as it really is quite good coverage (with a 30% chance to hax special attackers too) and this combined with it's tank set let it dish out large damage while still avoiding crucial 1hko's from threats like Sharpedo and Absol, it's enough of a niche to keep it at least C as D rank is WAY underselling its value and usefullness in a match.


Here's a replay against a decent player showing the *potential* of Vileplume and showing why it can be difficult to switch into (and also effect spore) http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-309631864

I'm sorry but that replay proves very little. Your opponent made some very questionable plays (switching Jolteon into a Vileplume when he has a decently healthy Meloetta, for example) and I don't actually see Vileplume doing much that something else couldn't have done better, honestly. In addition, that replay is super circumstancial, since if he had hit the Zen Headbutt, you wouldn't even have been able to show anything off lol. Your arguments also don't make a lot of sense: Aboma can't switch in on Amoonguss (Sludge Bomb/HP Fire) or Tangrowth (Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast) either, Flygon can only switch into Tangrowth when it doesn't run Leaf Storm and it's a defensive set (and can't do much in return in that case so why bother) and most, if not all of these types are taken care of by shroom and growth.

Amoonguss is your designated fighting check, i would assume you want the mon on that slot to check the biggest number of fighting types?
I see a number of teams just running amoonguss since it works better(not even all that much) than vileplume most of the time and just not check scrafty at all, you can't just say: "scrafty isnt that big of a threat anymore" when it actually didn't really change all that much.
Role compression is really important, it's the only reason poliwrath is even good at the moment, which is a mon you seem to have some success with.

O yea, and i'd like to point out that uxie can run that set with imprison and ada hitmonlee creep to prevent it from getting knocked off which is pretty cool, being the only stealth rocker with the ability to pivot around(bar mawile) is also nice, i don't think it does the job better or worse than mesprit, i would like to pair mesprit with something like swords dance abomasnow or drapion while uxie is best suited to support glass cannons with switch-in opportunities like exploud and whatnot

With Scrafty not being that big of a threat anymore, I'm pointing at the meta before Cobalion left, when Scrafty was an S-rank threat. These days the meta seems to have become more hostile to Scrafty, with more common things that outspeed it and therefore can check a +1 Scrafty. It's still pretty threatening, but I don't see how checking it more reliably than Tangrowth (don't forget a Focus Blast from Tangrowth hurts, too) makes it that much more worth using on offensively inclined teams. I do agree role compression is important, but Plume doesn't compress enough roles imo to make it worth using most of the time. If people are really adamant about it I guess I'm fine with moving it to C- too, but honestly, it just fulfills such a specific niche I find it hard justifing its usage. It also begs the question if we should maybe rank all those other lower tier mons that happen to check/counter a specific set of mons and therefore might have a small niche, despite being outclassed by a lot of other things otherwise (see the Stunfisk discussion that happened recently).

 

[Lord Death Man]

Amoonguss CAN check Scrafty with Clear Smog + Synthesis - a set that also has utility in checking both common Virizion sets (only really exceptionally weak to LO SD). I wouldn't say that that means Amoonguss completely outclasses Vileplume, but they're so incredibly similar that I'd rather use Amoonguss 90% of the time and I believe that many of y'all's teams would benefit from running a specialized Amoonguss set over Vileplume. Even when spore isn't relevant to the team (which is when? all teams can use free turns.) it has substantial bulk and one of the single strongest abilities in the tier over Vileplume, Regenerator.

I also think Golbat should stay C or go C-, but not D/E. It's miserably outclassed as a defogger, sure, but stallbreaker sets (Taunt, Toxic/Super Fang, Roost, Brave Bird / Super Fang) have a unique niche in it's speed, typing, and toxic immunity. It's a reliable Tangrowth check, decent enough Virizion check (even SD withou LO has trouble breaking it from full, so if you can keep rocks away), decent Scrafty check, all while being a very usable option to harass stall and some balance teams. Even as a defogger, I don't think it's as bad as many people make it out to be - sure, every rocks setter *can* come in, but Super Fang alone is a big enough deterrent to most of them, very few have reliable recovery and all of them need their hp to check stuff. Also, as people move away from Alomomola towards Slowking and away from Aromatisse towards tauntable Heal Bell/Aromatherapy users, Golbat has gotten progressively better at actually stallbreaking, as teams lose reliable Toxic absorbers who can afford to take a Super Fang. It also has the speed to outpace some dangerous threats and essentially every wall except for Uxie. I do think Golbat isn't all that good, but it's not unusable. I'd also argue that it belongs in E before D.

 

[lighthouses]

If your answer to scrafty is focus blast tangrowth then you will lose, since chople is the best, and most common set. The team you've been testing the new meta with had ways to deal with scrafty and had an amoonguss from what i've seen, which is why i assume you say the things you do, you're exaggerating though.
And yeah, i agree, mawile should be ranked, stunfisk should ranked, etc, they have a niche, something which makes them worth running, doesnt that mean that they are viable?
Being a fighting type check that can beat scrafty is huge, considering the amount of fighting types that ru has, and they all have some sort of secondary typing, if you have a team in need of amoonguss but scrafty is a problem to it, you run vileplume, it happens quite often too so i don't see a reason why it shouldnt be on the rankings it's at right now.

And yes, golbat should stay C, it's the same deal with togetic, you don't run defog and that makes it 10x better.

 

[atomicllamas]

If your answer to scrafty is focus blast tangrowth then you will lose, since chople is the best, and most common set. The team you've been testing the new meta with had ways to deal with scrafty and had an amoonguss from what i've seen, which is why i assume you say the things you do, you're exaggerating though.
And yeah, i agree, mawile should be ranked, stunfisk should ranked, etc, they have a niche, something which makes them worth running, doesnt that mean that they are viable?
Being a fighting type check that can beat scrafty is huge, considering the amount of fighting types that ru has, and they all have some sort of secondary typing, if you have a team in need of amoonguss but scrafty is a problem to it, you run vileplume, it happens quite often too so i don't see a reason why it shouldnt be on the rankings it's at right now.

Except you don't click Focus Blast unless you want to miss and lose, especially since very little prior damage puts it in Leaf Storm range. Additionally, +1 Scrafty can't even guarantee the 2HKO with Knock Off + High Jump Kick, meaning that knocking off LO to survive the hit followed by HJKing is not a safe play either.

Hide

252+ SpA Life Orb Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scrafty: 239-282 (88.1 - 104%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Scrafty Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 153-181 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Scrafty High Jump Kick vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 204-241 (54.5 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

no idea what "offensive vileplume" is running but
+1 252 Atk Scrafty Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Vileplume: 211-250 (59.6 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Like I agree that Vileplume has some niche but its just that, niche, its just really hard for it to justify its use with Tangrowth and Amoonguss in the tier.

Also Golbat isn't D, .-.

 

[lighthouses]

+1 knock off will 2hko with rocks up while itemless tangrowth does 60 to 80, wouldnt say thats "minimal" chip dmg to do on a lg cleaner
will 2hko if you press hjk after is what i meant, in case that wasnt clear
Diogo edit: ^
+1 252 Atk Scrafty High Jump Kick vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 204-241 (54.5 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Scrafty Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 153-181 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

llamas edit: +1 Knock off never 2hkoes after rocks, the second hit does 2/3 damage...

 

[tehy]

The main flaw with Tangrowth is that it has trouble defeating Virizion, and Amoonguss obviously loses to Scrafty.

Vileplume, on the other hand, takes both of them on quite well, which is huge when you consider that those are arguably the two best sweepers in this tier (I'd argue that Virizion > Fletch, and while Fletch > Scrafty in general the ability to boost your speed and not rely on one attack arguably makes it a better sweeper as well).

It be what it be.

Also, the increased power over Amoonguss can be quite nice at times, I always stay in on amoonguss with Alomomola to try and get a Scald burn (switch out afterwards and come back in having taken a Crisp 5% damage total). That's not happening with Vileplume, even if it's uninvested.

edit: apparently being on skype invalidates your ability to read ? must be all the emoji :x