Simple question, should we ban sand stream, drizzle, drought and snow warning?
If chomp itself doesn't go beforehand.I'd rather not have any of them gone but if one were to be banned then I'd rather have all of them banned so we dont have to see one specific weather dominating the meta (nowai hail).
once the weathers are gone, garchomp will reign hard though.
well...seems like chomp will be gone this round anyways but whatever
all in all, id like the weathers to stay.
all of them
That poll is the reason I started this one. It asks the wrong question. A lot of people do prefer weather gone, other people would play anyways even if they didn't like it. Surely we should be asking precisely what goes and what stays.There's actually this thread:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3449090
Which is already talking about this to some extent. And in terms of your poll, it starts getting more complex in terms of banning drizzle vs drought vs sand stream. Best to just write whatever opinions you may have regarding each in the above thread, there's already a bunch of people there.
Considering a large amount of suggested bans are related to weather or something that benefits from weather (namely Drizzle and Sand Stream), it still boggles my mind to see people consistently singling out one type of weather and leaving another scot-free.No, banning Drizzle for now will be enough, as weather wars are mostly Drizzle's fault; priority 5-8 turn Rain with Swift Swimmers will be the "nerf" Rain needs.
Drizzle, Thundurus, Garchomp, Excadrill. Yeah, that's a lot.Considering a large amount of suggested bans are related to weather or something that benefits from weather (namely Drizzle and Sand Stream), it still boggles my mind to see people consistently singling out one type of weather and leaving another scot-free.
Weather wars are mostly the fault of well....weather. And not just any weather - permanent, unending weather.
Choose all or none.
Gorebyss has got a bit of scrutiny for its Smash Passing, and it benefits from Rain too. Not nearly as relevant, but still...relevant. It's still another object of discussion that, surprise, relates to weather.Drizzle, Thundurus, Garchomp, Excadrill. Yeah, that's a lot.
I'm sure if I were to suggest banning Excadrill WITH Sand Rush or Garchomp WITH Sand Veil I would be shot down for suggesting a complex ban. Yet apparently you can unbreak sand by essentially making a complex ban on a higher scale by removing the few weather pokemon instead of weather itself. Blagh, what. Sun naturally is the smallest brother of the big three weather types, and Hail is an affectation at best. But they're still weather.And I don't have to choose "all or none". Sand Stream was fine in DPPt, wasn't it? What is the only new OU being discussed as broken? Excadrill. What happens if you ban Excadrill and Garchomp (not that I find Drill to be broken...)? You're left with a DPPt Sand team with Landorus and ~6 new Rock-types. Oh wow, broken as shit. Same thing with Sun, it's not broken now and, besides Darmanitan and Victini, I can't see it being deemed broken in the near future. Oh wow Venusaur has double Speed n--oh sorry Heatran and Dragons still wall you forever.
What. Are you going to get back to DPPt and suggesting banning all Dragons too? The main element of competitive Pokémon is... the pokémon, so if they're broken, they have to be banned. Whatever happened to this community in the last few months to make people oppose banning pokémon, of all things? Sand is not a playable entity, Excadrill is. "Drizzle+SwSw is not allowed" is a complex ban to save Drizzle's ass in a sense, "Excadrill is not allowed" isn't. I (and other people) am not trying to save Sandstorm banning "the few weather pokémon", I am trying to ban broken pokémon. Any Rock-type, Sand Forcer/Veiler/Rusher is a Sandstorm abuser. Hell, any Ground-type or Steel-type is also an abuser. And yet none of them come even close to Garchomp and Excadrill, as they are the problem. Looking at two pokémon which are borderline cases in one weather and saying all perma-weather is broken is a completely asinine assumption to make.I'm sure if I were to suggest banning Excadrill WITH Sand Rush or Garchomp WITH Sand Veil I would be shot down for suggesting a complex ban. Yet apparently you can unbreak sand by essentially making a complex ban on a higher scale by removing the few weather pokemon instead of weather itself. Blagh, what. Sun naturally is the smallest brother of the big three weather types, and Hail is an affectation at best. But they're still weather.
They do, and for some reason they think it would be broken in a metagame without any other perma-weather. Go figure.Poor Hail, it's so unloved that people don't even remember it when talking about banning weather =(
Imagine if an ability like SwSw/Sand Rush/Chlorophyll came out for hail.Poor Hail, it's so unloved that people don't even remember it when talking about banning weather =(
No it wasn't, but people just lived with it since they let it be grandfathered in from Generation 3 (and because banning things that aren't purely aggressive in nature is stupidly hard).Sand Stream was fine in DPPt, wasn't it?
If you use Leftovers and there's no Tyraniar/Hippowdon (it happened most of the time in DPPt), you would recover 250% of a Pokémon's HP worth of damage over the course of a 40 turn match. Ban Lefties ?__?Passive damage is one of the most dangerous things in the game, in no small part because people let it fly under the radar. If you are using a team without any Pokemon immune to it, Sandstream from an opposing lead Tyranitar will do 250% of a Pokemon's HP worth of damage over the course of a 40 turn match.
The problem isn't having a certain "permanent" condition in a metagame; the condition is only a problem when it's "broken", in the sense that it's detrimental to the metagame. Even if Sandstorm was everywhere and did passive damage every turn to non-immune pokémon, it simply wasn't considered detrimental enough to be banned. You say the damage is "completely free" but guess what, it's nullified the moment you put Leftovers in your pokémon. You're not "forced" to use Leftovers and, even if you were, it would not automatically mean Sand Stream was broken. Being a force in a metagame doesn't mean you're bad, only that you're relevant.The fact that this damage is completely free and comes from a Pokemon that's already good doesn't help matters.
If you get rid of Drizzle only, then yes the Weather Wars will end, but only because there will be permanent Sandstorm again. Drought might initially spike in usage, but I strongly doubt that it will be able to compete with Sandstorm over the long haul. Then we go back to a metagame where Ground and Steel types are held to a much lower standard than everyone else (Stealth Rock compounds the issue, but that's beyond the scope of this thread).
Hail suffers from many of the same problems, but the fact that Hail is only ignored by the worst defensive typing in the game helps balance it somewhat. If you run Hail you either take damage as well or you leave your entire team open to a crippling Fighting/Rock weakness. If we're banning the other weathers, though, Hail should go, too. Making Hail a permanent fixture on the field is really no better than letting any other weather be a permanent feature.
While I see your point, one thing is comparing a metagame with four weathers allowed (and one of them nerfed) with a metagame with only two allowed and forget what I'm suggesting is a metagame with three weathers allowed. Quantity does not really matter, though, my point is that banning Drizzle will not make B/W OU the same as DPPt OU simply because there's still another usable perma-weather around. If we find Sun or Sand are still broken after Drizzle's gone (probably Drought will be seen as broken before Sand since the latter doesn't give as many benefits as Sun/Rain), then we ban it. Worst case, we'll be left with only Hail in the end. Have you ever played DPPt UU? Abomasnow (and Froslass) were banned, and yet Snover was allowed and Hail was actually fine down there. Do you think Abomasnow would be worse in a no-Sand/Sun/Rain B/W OU than Snover was in DPPt UU? I really can't see how.If we do ban any weather, though, I do think it would be best to get rid of them across the board. Generation 4's metagame wasn't so good that we should try to roll back to it. Usage statistics indicate that the current metagame is more balanced than Generation 4's was at pretty much any point.