Nah. If I'm right, only Latias and Manaphy will be in next round's voting since they're the only ones that passed the last round of voting.Wait, so Colin's polls do apply to the next round? Is Garchomp going to be in the next round, then?
Nah. If I'm right, only Latias and Manaphy will be in next round's voting since they're the only ones that passed the last round of voting.Wait, so Colin's polls do apply to the next round? Is Garchomp going to be in the next round, then?
If it's a silly recurring argument why was the process modified to include majority thresholds/revoting on the basis of a specious criticism?good thing stage 3 was actually just modified to ensure people like you wouldn't have this silly recurring argument
It was nothing.thanks for your compelling opinion
I'm fine with the game Gamefreak has created. Why would I complain?go write a letter to gamefreak instead of complaining here then
This paragraph is basically a long injunction against a response so I will not respond to it.nobody who has any say in the process axes anything without following the only process we've tried to put in place. not that this would please someone who is inherently indifferent on whether latias in ou—perhaps the most tangible symbol that our community is willing to undo bans after given a way to fairly reevaluate pre-existing ones—is a good or bad thing. go post your pessimism in some other forum
Actually, it's not perfect, but it's as good as you can get under the circumstances.If you just don't trust Smogon's ability to produce rational voters for banning and unbanning Pokémon, well, no one can convince you otherwise. You've seen the process and clearly only people who've had extensive experience with suspects are allowed in. However, the fact that you're dismissing the system so quickly, as if we're all children who cry "WAA WAA BAN THIS BAN THAT", is just insulting.
I agree and I am fed up of people who think scizor is uber just because it's on about 31% of teams, he is esily counterd by many pokemon even set up bait for the likes of gyarados and subran (oviously setting up a sub on the switch) magnezone gaps hold of him then has SI with him with hp fire.Scizor is very useful and easy to fit on most teams. That's why it has high usage, it isn't because its overpowered. You see, quite a lot of Pokemon counter Scizor nicely. OK, rolecall, Rotom-A, Zapdos, Gyarados, Heatran, Magnezone, you see? Scizor can be countered. Thinking that something that is used alot automatically means it's Uber is very naive.
I find it surprising that Forry usage as a lead persists even when the only leads you unequivocally win against are Deoxys-E (barring a Dual Screener) and Mew (the strategy being to use Payback until the health gets low and spam Rapid Spin, which is possible due to the high PP). More Groudons are bringing Flamethrower to give you a nasty surprise, and I would rather not lose something as integral as Forry to a Dark Void from Darkrai.Ubers Leads said:| 10 | Forretress | 597 |
Scizor fits this because it can so easily give the Scizor user a free turn and some damage. U-turn not only does some damage to the opponent, but also keeps the momentum of the match, the free turn, in the Scizor user's favor by giving the Scizor user a free switch to respond to what its opponent does. This makes Scizor the best Pokemon in OU for holding the momentum and getting free turns to set up sweepers.Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
To add on to this, I'd like to point out that Forretress doesn't always "beat" Mew because if the Mew player can get Stealth Rock up on a Payback turn, he can Explode the next turn, making Rapid Spin not work AND putting Forretress at about half health AND giving a free switch-in to one of Mew's teammates. I agree with you about Forretress vs. Groudon in Ubers being similar to Forretress vs. Swampert/Hippowdon in Standard, but I'd have to say that Groudon fares much better in Ubers while Forretress fares much better in Standard. The goal of leading with Forretress is (usually) to get Toxic Spikes up early while keeping Stealth Rock off your side of the field, and it simply can't do both against any of the common Uber leads. On the other hand, leading with Forretress in Standard nets you the early advantage against Metagross, Jirachi, Swampert, Hippowdon, Bronzong, etc. and there is always the option of going to something else like Swampert against Azelf, Heatran, Infernape and pals.I find it surprising that Forry usage as a lead persists even when the only leads you unequivocally win against are Deoxys-E (barring a Dual Screener) and Mew (the strategy being to use Payback until the health gets low and spam Rapid Spin, which is possible due to the high PP). More Groudons are bringing Flamethrower to give you a nasty surprise, and I would rather not lose something as integral as Forry to a Dark Void from Darkrai.
But then again, I use Forry as a lead on a stall team with Ho-oh, and with the phoenix covering Deoxys-A and checking Darkrai and Blissey checking Kyogre and Mewtwo, it works well enough. Forry almost guarantees that there won't be residual damage on your side of the field, which can be huge.
Deciding between Forry and Groudon is quite similar to the decision to lead with Forry or Hippo/Pert for a stall team in Standard. Using Forry is like playing a more aggresive Sicilian Defense, while playing Hippowdon is akin to using a more conservative French Defense.
Quoted because this is more specifically what I want to address but it branches out to the more general, you dig?BLAGH BLAGH BLAGH GARCHOMP SCIZOR UBER CHARACTERISTICS AND SHIT
As far as I recall, the problem of Garchomp being an was caused due his odd speed and bulkiness which resulted in massive sweeps unless you immediately brought in something bulky with ice beam, and even then it was a game of chance that more often than not that a yachechomp would get in 1 or 2 Sword Dances than would be able to take down whatever you switched in anyways. No pokemon could consistantly stop it without a certain amount of knowledge and even then he'd usually slink away unharmed, as the result most teams had to dedicate atleast one pokemon to stopping Garchomp.
I'll admit I don't have much in the way of better alternatives either but I think we could at least do with the return of having to write a paragraph to back up an opinion. Obviously one can't make a fair judgement if they don't have the experience but simply playing a lot also doesn't automatically make one more intelligible (more like intelligarchomp amirite :naughty:).If you just don't trust Smogon's ability to produce rational voters for banning and unbanning Pokémon, well, no one can convince you otherwise. You've seen the process and clearly only people who've had extensive experience with suspects are allowed in. However, the fact that you're dismissing the system so quickly, as if we're all children who cry "WAA WAA BAN THIS BAN THAT", is just insulting.
Well, its a rough analogy, but let me put this into OU terms: would you put Grass Knot on your LeadApe if Swampert was a problem? If you use GK, suddenly you open yourself up to threats such as Shucatran if you go FB/GK and Metagross if you go CC/GK, not to mention eliminating any possibility of late-game wallbreaking, since either Blissey or Skarmory will wall you completely. It's the same case in Ubers. Fire moves are useful for nothing except Scizor and Forretress. Granted, Scizor is 7th in usage, and Forretress is ahead of Garchomp now, but using a move with such limited coverage when your Pokemon are strapped for moveslots isn't fun.I know nothing about the Ubers metagame but Mew should carry a Fire attack if Forretress is a problem, no?
Tyranitar is a much better Pursuit user than Scizor. Scizor cannot pursuit Rotom-h unless it's locked in Shadow Ball. Latias can 2HKO Scizor with Surf and Thunderbolt or can simply OHKO with HP Fire.Being a perfect fit on so many teams is what makes Scizor a candidate for Ubers -- not its sweeping abilities. Scizor fits this because it can so easily give the Scizor user a free turn and some damage. U-turn not only does some damage to the opponent, but also keeps the momentum of the match, the free turn, in the Scizor user's favor by giving the Scizor user a free switch to respond to what its opponent does. This makes Scizor the best Pokemon in OU for holding the momentum and getting free turns to set up sweepers.
But how is Scizor different from any other U-turn user? The difference is in switch-forcing and the magnitude of the U-turn damage. Scizor's high Attack and its typing make it so there are many Pokemon that are OHKOed or severely damaged by Scizor's moves, so it can make the opponent switch more that any other U-turn user in the game could. The second difference is that Scizor's U-turn is hugely powerful when backed up with STAB and a Choice Band, so not only does one force a switch with Scizor and get a free turn, but one also considerably weakens the opponent's Pokemon. Stealth Rock is probably in play to do even more damage. Weakening ones opponents beforehand is necessary for most sweeps, and Scizor does that very well.
But Scizor's team support does not stop at U-turn. Many sweepers are revenge-killed or countered by Latias or Rotom-h, so someone building a team with a Pokemon such as Gyarados or Salamence would want Pursuit support. Scizor is perfect for the job because it gets a powerful Choice Band Pursuit that hits for increased power even if the opponent stays in. Scizor's typing makes it easy for it to switch into Choiced Dragon, Ice, etc. type moves and Pursuit the opponent, allowing for an easier sweep later on.
Scizor also shines in team support with its revenge-killing. Scizor's Bullet Punch is the most powerful priority on any OU Pokemon, which lets it revenge-kill most OU sweepers that do not resist Steel. A successful revenge-kill is the most powerful type of team support because if you cannot revenge-kill the opponent's sweeper, your opponent sweeps your team and you lose the match. Most sweepers cannot be countered all the time, so every team but the stalliest of stall teams needs something that can revenge-kill. Scizor, which fits this role, has a spot on so many teams in part because it can make this ultimate team-supporting move.
High-powered STAB U-turn, powerful Pursuit, and excellent revenge-killing abilities make Scizor Uber by the Support Characteristic because it can help its team in so many ways and make it considerably easier for the Scizor-user's team to sweep.
Pursuit is secondary to U-turn as a team-support move on Scizor, as U-turn is much stronger and lets the user keep the momentum in a way which Pursuit doesn't. And a Specially bulky Scizor can survive two Surfs or Thunderbolts from Latias, and most Latias don't run HP Fire because it is so specialized for Scizor and drops Latias's Speed by one.Tyranitar is a much better Pursuit user than Scizor. Scizor cannot pursuit Rotom-h unless it's locked in Shadow Ball. Latias can 2HKO Scizor with Surf and Thunderbolt or can simply OHKO with HP Fire.
Also, a lot of sweepers can take CB Bullet Punch (Gyarados, Empoleon, Infernape, Heatran, Starmie, Lucario, Kingdra and even DD Tyranitar with Babiri Berry). CB Bullet Punch is also set up fodder for all those Pokemons.
Scizor's support characteristic is not half good as Wobbofet's.
Woot!august
| Heatran | 1. Celebi | 20452 | 12.71 | 13 | 7.60 | 25 | +12 |
| Heatran | 2. Rotom-c | 7485 | 4.65 | 34 | 3.63 | 46 | +12 |
| Heatran | 3. Flygon | 16314 | 10.14 | 15 | 7.41 | 26 | +11 |
| Heatran | 4. Hippowdon | 8347 | 5.19 | 31 | 4.56 | 42 | +11 |
| Heatran | 5. Rotom-w | 4882 | 3.03 | 41 | 2.41 | 49 | +8 |
| Heatran | 6. Suicune | 13724 | 8.53 | 20 | 7.01 | 27 | +7 |
| Heatran | 7. Roserade | 7098 | 4.41 | 36 | 4.01 | 43 | +7 |
| Heatran | 8. Cresselia | 6431 | 4.00 | 37 | 3.78 | 44 | +7 |
| Heatran | 9. Mamoswine | 8597 | 5.34 | 29 | 5.18 | 35 | +6
| Heatran | 10. Rotom-h | 21615 | 13.43 | 10 | 10.75 | 15 | +5 |
september
Heatran | 1. Roserade | 8686 | 5.68 | 26 | 4.58 | 39 | +13 |
| Heatran | 2. Celebi | 19043 | 12.45 | 12 | 7.18 | 24 | +12 |
| Heatran | 3. Rotom-c | 6599 | 4.31 | 34 | 3.53 | 45 | +11 |
| Heatran | 4. Rotom-w | 5621 | 3.67 | 39 | 2.35 | 50 | +11 |
So roserade beat out celebi for heatran teammates and jumped 7 spots.. hmm
SpecJolt OHKO Scizor after SR damage. Starmie 2HKO Scizor. BulkyGyara, SD Lucario, AgiliGross, NP Ape with Vacumm Wave, Rain Dance Kingdra, all of them cannot be revenge-killed by Scizor and Scarfed Dragons.Pursuit is secondary to U-turn as a team-support move on Scizor, as U-turn is much stronger and lets the user keep the momentum in a way which Pursuit doesn't. And a Specially bulky Scizor can survive two Surfs or Thunderbolts from Latias, and most Latias don't run HP Fire because it is so specialized for Scizor and drops Latias's Speed by one.
Bullet Punch is not resisted by most sweepers in OU and can do large amounts of damage to even Pokemon that resist it, 2HKOing Jolteon and 3HKOing Starmie. Those you mentioned are only a handful of the sweepers in OU, and can generally be revenge-killed by Scarfed Dragons. That revenge-killing combination is another way Scizor shows itself as being a great choice for many teams, because it can cover so many Pokemon when in an offensive combination. Combination-wise Scizor really does go with everything on an offensive team.
Very true. But it's also true that people are just throwing Tormentran onto a team for the cool factor without investing in a Skarmory or Forretress to give it the support it needs. And as a result, they're disappointed when Tormentran utterly fails to do anything besides cause trouble for the opposing team. Something like Scarftran or Subtran has almost universal utility, but it takes a certain type of team to use Tormentran.The ladder must be full of Team of Torment copiers.