Resource [SPOILERS] Early VGC 2017 Interesting Pokemon

[Maltrab]

Agiligross still isn't unheard of either, and in Celesteela's case you have beast boost for an attack boost on every KO which can give you a bigger effective return for your one turn investment on boosting speed. This is on a pokemon with considerable bulk, good defensive typing, good offensive coverage and with max investment is capable of 248 speed after one autotomize which puts it ahead of both max investment koko (200) or even max investment Pheromosa (223) for argument's sake, as well as any scarfers below around base 85-90 IIRC which will make it faster than scarf Xurk as well. Not to mention that even without autotomize, it does fairly well in trick room.

I don't get why you'd rather have the power either unless there's some super fat steel neutral/weak Alolamons I'm not aware of. You're still going to hit all of the important stuff at full power, the fattest Tapu weighs like 100lbs. It doesn't matter for Mudsdale at all because it's so fat that heavy slam is a bad move whether or not you lose weight, and Celsteela will probably carry grass coverage most of the time. This is also disregarding that it can easily run mixed or special sets with access to fire blast, grass knot, air slash, ect and also gets wide guard which is always a nice support option against rock sliders.

In singles no, but in VGC it is. I have other ways to increase my speed or decrease my opponents speed that doesn't involve using Autotomize such as Thunder Wave, Icy Wind, Electroweb, Trick Room, Tail Wind.

 

[Riah]

Another thing worth noting is that the research thread has confirmed that Tapu Fini's misty terrain now works against confusion, and Tapu Fini gets swagger. This will likely allow it to give its ally a confusion free +2 atk which doesn't depend on an item slot unlike older lum/persim swagstrats. This, combined with solid bulk, good defensive typing, decent special attack, muddy water and of course the burn/paralysis/sleep immunity, makes Fini an interesting support choice for many physical attackers.

As gimmicky as it sounds, Spotlight sounds great for forcing a swagger onto a physical teammate, provided you can find an optimal one against what Tapu Fini pairs with if swagger becomes popular.

 

[Maltrab]

As gimmicky as it sounds, Spotlight sounds great for forcing a swagger onto a physical teammate, provided you can find an optimal one against what Tapu Fini pairs with if swagger becomes popular.

Doesn't sound like a bad idea and I do think that Tapu Fini strategy could be something we see. We've seen it with Safeguard, now we don't even need to use Safeguard. Definitely something to watch out for.

 

[R-B-Y]

A combo of garchomp and celesteela seems unbeatable. They both outright kill each other's counters

 

[Maltrab]

A combo of garchomp and celesteela seems unbeatable. They both outright kill each other's counters

How does Celasteela beat Lapras, Milotic, Salamence?

 

[R-B-Y]

How does Celasteela beat Lapras, Milotic, Salamence?

Celesteela tanks damage from Salamence EASY, and hits it extremely hard with heavy slam. I don't think we need to worry about lapras this gen, and milotic can be handled by a different team member.

 

[Maltrab]

Celesteela tanks damage from Salamence EASY, and hits it extremely hard with heavy slam. I don't think we need to worry about lapras this gen, and milotic can be handled by a different team member.

Disagree about Lapras and Salamence isn't going to be targeting Celesteela, it's going to be Dracoing the Garchomp.

252+ Celesteela -1 Heavy Slam to 4 HP Salamence, 44.4%-53.2%
252+ Salamence Fire Blast to 252 HP Celesteela, 60.7%-71.5%

Celesteela does not counter Salamence.

 

[R-B-Y]

Disagree about Lapras and Salamence isn't going to be targeting Celesteela, it's going to be Dracoing the Garchomp.

Throw a tapu koko onto that core.

 

[Maltrab]

So, outside of Fighting attacks and Toxic, can anyone think of a good way to take down Porygon2?

 

[Nelson Tangela]

So, outside of Fighting attacks and Toxic, can anyone think of a good way to take down Porygon2?

Knock Off.

 

[Maltrab]

Knock Off.

In theory yes, but who learns Knock Off for VGC 2017?

Edit: Actually, just thinking about that brought me to Mandibuzz and got me thinking, Mandibuzz might actually be pretty good for VGC 2017. Weak to Fairy is an issue, but immune to Ground, gets Knock Off, Tailwind, Roost, Taunt, Foul Play, Snarl, and has really good bulk. Might be something to think about.

 

[Riah]

In theory yes, but who learns Knock Off for VGC 2017?

Pre-bank, only legal Knock Off users now is Machamp, Alakazam A-Muk, Hariyama, and Sableye. Archeops, Carracosta, Mandibuzz, Salazzle, Pelipper, and Ledian also added to list once bank releases (assuming Alola dex only can only participate). Even without Knock Off Mandibuzz can do decently well though.

 

[Maltrab]

Pre-bank, only legal Knock Off users now is Machamp, Alakazam A-Muk, Hariyama, and Sableye. Archeops, Carracosta, Mandibuzz, Pelipper, and Ledian also added to list once bank releases (assuming Alola dex only can only participate). Even without Knock Off Mandibuzz can do decently well though.

Agreed. Hariyama and Machamp already beat Porygon 2 without Knock Off though.

 

[Kietharr]

uhhh... so lmao, dark types are now immune to prankster. Welp, looks like all of the prankster supporters just got that much shittier in this meta.

 

[R-B-Y]

uhhh... so lmao, dark types are now immune to prankster. Welp, looks like all of the prankster supporters just got that much shittier in this meta.

Damn.

 

[R-B-Y]

Disagree about Lapras and Salamence isn't going to be targeting Celesteela, it's going to be Dracoing the Garchomp.

252+ Celesteela -1 Heavy Slam to 4 HP Salamence, 44.4%-53.2%
252+ Salamence Fire Blast to 252 HP Celesteela, 60.7%-71.5%

Celesteela does not counter Salamence.

Late reply, but wouldn't scarfchomp work here? Quick dragon claw makes quick work of Salamence.

 

[Ksh13]

Pre-bank, only legal Knock Off users now is Machamp, Alakazam A-Muk, Hariyama, and Sableye. Archeops, Carracosta, Mandibuzz, Pelipper, and Ledian also added to list once bank releases (assuming Alola dex only can only participate). Even without Knock Off Mandibuzz can do decently well though.

Shouldn't Salazzle be added to that list? It also gets Fake Out and Taunt so it could be a pretty cool Pokemon to use (in fact I plan on using it on my first team).

Also just want to say that I am really looking forward to this meta!

 

[ethan06]

Would it be possible for the role compendium in the OP to be brought up to date with the leaks? I'm sure I'm not the only one trying to theorycraft a team in advance of the games dropping and it'd be really cool to have definitive list of all the old and new stuff that gets, say, Wide Guard.

 

[Maltrab]

Late reply, but wouldn't scarfchomp work here? Quick dragon claw makes quick work of Salamence.

No, Garchomp is naturally faster anyways so unless it's scarfmence, not necessarily going to matter and Dragon Claw can't OHKO Salamence without a crit while Draco Meteor OHKO's all but sash Garchomp

 

[Riah]

Shouldn't Salazzle be added to that list? It also gets Fake Out and Taunt so it could be a pretty cool Pokemon to use (in fact I plan on using it on my first team).

Also just want to say that I am really looking forward to this meta!

Oh, forgot about Salazzle. She's on the post bank list for fake out/knock off early this year since we have no Scraggy.

...I actually should post my legal pre-bank egg moves list in one of the resource threads.

 

[Riah]

If anyone is still teambuilding, here is a list of all VGC legal pre-bank egg moves I made a while ago. I just chose 1 parent within the same egg group that passes the move for the sake of convienence. For field any combination is possible since Smeargle exists.

Egg Move list

Alola Pokemon

Rowlet (Flying): Haze/Confuse Ray: Zubat; Defog: Rufflet; Baton Pass: Oricorio
-Illegal: Curse (Farfetch'd); Ominous Wind (Xatu)


Litten (Field): Nasty Plot/Body Slam/Crunch/Fake Out/Revenge/Heat Wave


Popplio (Water 1/Field): Charm/Amnesia/Aqua Ring/Aromatic Mist/Perish Song/Wonder Room


Pikipek (Flying): Tailwind/Brave Bird: Rufflet; Mirror Move: Spearow
-Illegal: Boomburst (Taillow/Noibat/Chatot), Uproar(Hoothoot/Spearow/Doduo)


Yungoos (Field): Revenge/Last Resort


Grubbin (Bug): Harden: Pinsir; Mud Shot: Surskit (bred w/Poliwag for Mud Shot)
- Illegal: Electroweb (Galvantula)
- Legal via QR: Endure (Sewaddle)


Crabrawler (Water 3): Wide Guard: Tirtouga; Endeavour: Archen
-Illegal: Amnesia (Krabby/Lileep); Superpower (Requires ORAS move tutor Water 3 compatible pokemon)


Oricorio (Flying): Pluck: Spearow, Tailwind: Rufflet, Safeguard: It's a TM
-Illegal: Captivate (Woobat)


Cutiefly (Bug/Fairy): Baton Pass: Ledyba; Speed Swap: A-Raichu; Moonblast/Bestow: Clefairy
-Illegal: Skill Swap (Spritzee)


Rockruff (Field): Fire Fang/Thunder Fang/Crush Claw/Sucker Punch/Thrash


Wishiwashi (Water 2): Mist/Water Sport/Water Pulse: Wailmer; Muddy Water: Barboach


Mareanie (Water 1): Stockpile/Swallow/Spit Up: Shellos (bred w/Drifloon for moves); Haze: Surskit


Mudbray (Field): Body Slam/Double-Edge/Magnitude/Close Combat/Mud Bomb


Dewpider (Water 1/Bug): Stockpile/Spit Up: Shellos
-Illegal: Power Split (Shuckle)
-Legal via QR: Aurora Beam (Spheal)


Formantis (Grass): Aromatherapy/Giga Drain/Leaf Storm: Bellossom
-Illegal: Defog (Requires TM with Grass compatible from D/P/PT)
-Legal via QR: Weather Ball (Bellsprout/Roselia)


Morelull (Grass): Posion Powder/Stun Spore/Leech Seed: Exeggcute
-Illegal: Amnesia (Bulbasaur + Slowpoke required)


Salandit (Monster/Dragon):
-Illegal: Belch (Ekans); Fake Out (Scraggy/Squirtle + Smeargle required); Knock Off (Requires ORAS move tutor Monster/Dragon compatible pokemon)


Stufful (Field): Ice Punch/Thunder Punch/Force Palm/Endure/Mega Kick/Stomping Tantrum


Bounsweet (Grass): Synthesis/Play Rough: Comfey; Charm: Cottonee
-Illegal: Acupressure (Maractus), Feint (Breloom)


Comfey (Grass): Lucky Chant: Oddish; After You: Petilil
-Illegal: Amnesia (Bulbasaur + Slowpoke required), Endure (Bulbasaur + Shieldon/Paras + Heracross required)


Oranguru (Field): Extrasensory/Wonder Room/Psychic Terrain


Passimian (Field): Siesmic Toss/Vital Throw/Quick Guard/Iron Head/Quick Attack/Feint


Wimpod (Bug/Water 3): Spikes: Shellder; Aqua Jet/Wide Guard: Tirtouga, Harden: Pinsir; Metal Claw: Scizor


Sandyghast (Amorphous): Amnesia/Stockpile/Swallow/Spit Up: Drifloon; Destiny Bond: Ghastly
-Illegal: Ancient Power (Lileep)


Pyukumuku (Water 1): Endure: Poliwag (bred w/ Corsola for Endure); Venom Drench: Mareanie,
-Illegal: Bestow (Passed from Zizagoon -> Delibird -> Froakie); Tickle (Omanyte)

Komala (Field): Charm/Wish/Play Rough/Sing

Turtonator (Monster/Dragon): Wide Guard: Tirtouga; Head Smash: Cranidos,
-Illegal: Fire Spin (Charmander); Revenge (Druddigon)

Togedemaru (Field/Fairy): Reversal/Present/Encore/Twineedle/Wish/Fake Out/Tickle/Flail/Disarming Voice

Mimikyu (Amorphous): Grudge/Nightmare/Destiny Bond/Curse: Ghastly (+ Misdreavus for Grudge)

Bruxish (Water 2): Water Pulse: Wailmer; Poison Fang/Ice Fang/Rage: Carvanha

Drampa (Monster/Dragon): Hurricane/Mist/Dragon Rush: Dragnonite (bred w/Wingull/Surskit for Mist)
-Illegal: Play Rough (Skrelp), Razor Wind (Tropius + Absol required)

Jangmo-o (Dragon): Dragon Breath: Gible
-Illegal: Counter (Goomy + Scraggy required)
-Legal via QR: Reversal (Axew + Ryhorn required)

Alola Form Pokemon

A-Rattata (Field): Snatch/Stockpile/Fury Swipes/Switcheroo/Counter/Reversal/Uproar/Swallow/Me First/Revenge/Final Gambit


A-Raichu (Field/Fairy): Bide/Reversal/Present/Encore/Wish/Charge/Double Slap/Fake Out/Thunder Punch/Tickle/Flail/Endure/Lucky Chant/Bestow/Disarming Voice/Electric Terrain


A-Sandshrew (Field): Flail/Counter/Icicle Spear/Metal Claw/Crush Claw/Night Slash/Icicle Crash/Endure/Chip Away/Curse/Amnesia


A-Vulpix (Field): Freeze-Dry/Hypnosis/Flail/Spite/DisableHowl/Agility/Encore/Moonblast/Power Swap/Charm/Tail Slap/Extrasensory
-Illegal: Secret Power (No pokemon in the Alola dex can be sketched for the move).


A-Meowth (Field): Hynosis/Assist/Foul Play/Spite/Charm/Amnesia/Parting Shot/Flail/Flatter/Punishment/Snatch/Covet


A-Geodude (Mineral): Block/Wide Guard/Magnet Rise: Probopass; Flail/Counter: Sudowoodo
-Illegal: Endure (Dwebble + Heracross/Yamask + Stunfisk required); Rock Climb (Ferrothorn); Curse/Screech (Steelix)
-Legal via QR: Autotomize (Honedge)

A-Grimer (Amorphous): Spite/Curse/Mean Look: Ghastly; Stockpile/Swallow/Spit Up: Drifloon; Imprison: Misdreavus
-Illegal: Shadow Sneak/Scary Face (Pumpkaboo); Clear Smog/Assurance/Haze (Weezing); Pursuit (Duskull)

A-Exeggutor (Grass): Lucky Chant/Moonlight/Giga Drain/Natural Gift/Grassy Terrain: Gloom; Leaf Storm: Bellossom
-Illegal: Block (Tangela); Power Swap/Nature Power/Synthesis (Seedot bred w/Smeargle for Power Swap); Curse (Ferroseed); Skill Swap (Requires Exeggutor from previous gen w/Skill Swap)
-Legal via QR: Ingrain (Roselia), Ancient Power (Chikorita bred w/Shieldon for move)

A-Marowak (Monster): Ancient Power/Iron Head/Endure: Shieldon; Perish Song: Lapras; Chip Away/Screech: Cranidos
-Illegal: Detect (Treecko); Double Kick (Nidoran-M); Skull Bash (Squirtle)


A-Diglett (Field): Feint Attack/Metal Sound/Ancient Power/Pursuit/Beat Up/Thrash/Reversal/Headbutt/Endure/Final Gambit/Memento

 

[Nighty]

So I'm trying to figure out a team I want to make for the special VGC ladder on the games, and in my quest to not give up on Whimsicott ever I made a list of:

Whimsicot/Minior/Togedemaru/Oranguru/Araquanid/???

My idea is to sorta switch between Tailwind control and Trick Room as the need comes, but I feel I will need a big check for Tapu Lele, the choices I have in mind so far are Poison/Dark/Z-Parting Shot Silvally, Alolan Persian or Alolan Muk, thoughts?

 

[BoatsDon'tSink]

Doesn't involve new Pokemon, but what do you guys think about Z-Splash Gyarados with Tailwind support? (With something else to handle possible Electric leads, obviously, such as Garchomp)

 

[Maltrab]

Finally figured out the first team I'm trying. Let me know what you guys think.

First VGC2017 Team

Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 132 HP / 172 Def / 140 SpA / 4 SpD / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
- Protect

Metagross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Clear Body
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Atk / 180 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake
- Explosion

Arcanine @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 4 SpA / 60 SpD / 68 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Snarl
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Mudsdale @ Lum Berry
Ability: Stamina
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- High Horsepower
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Protect

Lapras @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 124 Def / 124 SpA / 28 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Protect

Mandibuzz (F) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Taunt
- Tailwind
- Roost

 

[R-B-Y]

Finally figured out the first team I'm trying. Let me know what you guys think.

First VGC2017 Team

Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 132 HP / 172 Def / 140 SpA / 4 SpD / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
- Protect

Metagross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Clear Body
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Atk / 180 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake
- Explosion

Arcanine @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 4 SpA / 60 SpD / 68 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Snarl
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Mudsdale @ Lum Berry
Ability: Stamina
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- High Horsepower
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Protect

Lapras @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 124 Def / 124 SpA / 28 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Protect

Mandibuzz (F) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Taunt
- Tailwind
- Roost

Hey, celesteela outclasses metagross. I ran some calcs against a mew with focus blast and close combat, and I found that celesteela has the same physical bulk as metagross, as well has higher special bulk. Also, heavy slam hits harder than meteor mash. Here's the calcs:
252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 87-103 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Mew Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 37-44 (19.7 - 23.5%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Mew Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 50-59 (26.7 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 94-112 (53.7 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mew Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Celesteela: 45-54 (26.1 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Mew Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celesteela: 45-53 (26.1 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO