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I haven't seen a single Alakazam run Taunt or Encore, and according to PO's usage stats they never run it (there's one set with 1% usage that runs Encore, that's negligible). It's honestly a terrible move to run imo. And Chansey can T-Wave maybe? o.O Also I like to run ScarfChomp on my Stall team as a backup of sorts in case things get out of hand. It cleans up late game, revenge kills, blocks Volt-Turn and what not. Idk, I think it's wise to run some offensive presence on Stall too.
EDIT: Calm Mind seems to be in the same boat, 1.50% on the most common set... I just wouldn't worry about it whatsoever. You can't counter everything ingame, just bring a backup plan like my ScarfChomp but don't bother changing your team around for one threat, just focus on the common threats.
I haven't seen a single Alakazam run Taunt or Encore, and according to PO's usage stats they never run it (there's one set with 1% usage that runs Encore, that's negligible). It's honestly a terrible move to run imo. And Chansey can T-Wave maybe? o.O Also I like to run ScarfChomp on my Stall team as a backup of sorts in case things get out of hand. It cleans up late game, revenge kills, blocks Volt-Turn and what not. Idk, I think it's wise to run some offensive presence on Stall too.
I WAS about to knock Alakazam, because I never see it, but then I checked the usage stats, and it's on the rise. It IS troublesome, however, I don't see it because it doesn't carry a lot of weight against offensive teams due to its abysmal Defense (Priority will pretty much crush it).
I don't know if this has been asked before or not. What are people running to counter Alakazam both regular and mega? I can't really run Aegislash because it severely hinders my teams synergy. Anyone know of any other practical mons that would fit the theme of a traditional full stall team?
Honestly, Aeigslash is the best answer to Mega-Zam for stall. If you can't add it, then your team will probably have a weakness to him--every team has weaknesses. If you want a niche counter, you could try Wobbuffet. Mirror Coat will one shot MegaZam, and Wobb always forces mind games for other mons.
I haven't seen a single Alakazam run Taunt or Encore, and according to PO's usage stats they never run it (there's one set with 1% usage that runs Encore, that's negligible). It's honestly a terrible move to run imo. And Chansey can T-Wave maybe? o.O Also I like to run ScarfChomp on my Stall team as a backup of sorts in case things get out of hand. It cleans up late game, revenge kills, blocks Volt-Turn and what not. Idk, I think it's wise to run some offensive presence on Stall too.
EDIT: Calm Mind seems to be in the same boat, 1.50% on the most common set... I just wouldn't worry about it whatsoever. You can't counter everything ingame, just bring a backup plan like my ScarfChomp but don't bother changing your team around for one threat, just focus on the common threats.
Chansey is still the biggest problem to 'zam on stall. I've been running Mega Alakazam a lot lately, and while it can taunt Chansey, Chansey 3HKOs with Seismic Toss. It may take big damage in the process if Focus Blast connects, but as a MegaZam user, I usually switch out. If your Chansey is out against a Mega Zam, just go immediately for Seismic, because it is either going to Taunt or just switch. If you Seismic on the Taunt, Zam can now be 2HKOed and the best it can do if it stays in is try to hit you twice with a shaky Focus Blast.
Chansey is still the biggest problem to 'zam on stall. I've been running Mega Alakazam a lot lately, and while it can taunt Chansey, Chansey 3HKOs with Seismic Toss. It may take big damage in the process if Focus Blast connects, but as a MegaZam user, I usually switch out. If your Chansey is out against a Mega Zam, just go immediately for Seismic, because it is either going to Taunt or just switch. If you Seismic on the Taunt, Zam can now be 2HKOed and the best it can do if it stays in is try to hit you twice with a shaky Focus Blast.
The problem is Chansey is pretty key in most stall teams mine included and letting it's HP get that low especially when there is a good chance you will end up losing against Alakazam is just not going to work.
I appreciate everyone's help but I guess short of rebuilding my team to include Aegislash which will still likely result in there being a new hole in hole in the team, there is nothing I can do.
Moving on then. Are people still using full stall teams or is semi stall the way to go?
I've seen a few of the games. Personally, I've found it almost amusing that Mega Venu is used more than ZardX even though people have been stating ZardX is better... Why is this a trend? I just think stall teams with venu are easier to create. I know quite a few people who have worked on some MZardX teams recently (myself included) and the obvious questions of what cores can be made with it are a bit difficult. Amoongus/Quag? Not bad, but gliscor is kind of a nice partner over quagsire. In fact, most zardX teams I've seen (stall) have run Gliscor since it's a great catch to ZardX and advances stealth rocks that you lose when starting a core without heatran.
I've seen a few of the games. Personally, I've found it almost amusing that Mega Venu is used more than ZardX even though people have been stating ZardX is better... Why is this a trend? I just think stall teams with venu are easier to create. I know quite a few people who have worked on some MZardX teams recently (myself included) and the obvious questions of what cores can be made with it are a bit difficult. Amoongus/Quag? Not bad, but gliscor is kind of a nice partner over quagsire. In fact, most zardX teams I've seen (stall) have run Gliscor since it's a great catch to ZardX and advances stealth rocks that you lose when starting a core without heatran.
I think it's because Mega Venusaur is synonymous with stall in the past through the VenuTran core. I've personally given up with Heatran as a stall Pokemon after having shifted to Charizard X when I want a Fire type...but it's very intuitive and easy to use. You have a Leech Seed outlet if you choose to run one, a phaze, Will o Wisp, and Stealth Rocks all rolled in one. Coverage wise, I think the only problem it really has is with the common Earthquake but the two eat up lots of threats from a quick glance.
I find myself pulled towards the idea of a Charizard X/Chesnaught base as I start testing out non-standard stall teams. I don't think it makes sense for a threat coverage point of view but I find Chesnaught's resistance to EdgeQuake really helps since those are X's biggest threats. Though I also admit I'm really excited to see what Mega Sableye can bring to the table as it could become an interesting blend of traditional Prankster pest and a decent physical wall. Being able to be a shutdown for Deoxys/Bisharp cores would be a nice bonus.
The biggest thing putting me off ZardX is that it loses that Fairy resistance for beating Mega Mawile, which seems like a big loss when Fire-types are among the only things that can safely counter it. I'm also not sure what it's meant to cover that can't be covered by other common stall Pokémon like Skarmory, Mew or Quagsire.
As a driver in the OU room and being constantly idle, I often accumulate a bunch of private messages about "Can you help me with this stall team" or "Can you help me build a stall team". Lemme just say when you want help from scratch, this is a forever done project as it takes me hours to build each odd stall team, and I'd imagine the research to understand stall when learning it would take similar amounts of time. What I'm trying to get at is while I'm slamming information about what roles you need, I understand there's a bunch of information overload... But I've got other things to do (such as pay attention in class). I thought I'd write up a formula for stall in an Aegislash meta, and should it be banned I'll adjust it for the aegiless meta. That way, I can just link this. Not only that, it's better than scotti's "Water/Fire/Grass/Skarm+Chansey+Stall Breaker". I've seen a few "guides" that tried to nail down what exactly stall is doing but none of them really did justice... scotti's formula is better and more correct than those for the most part.
Keep in mind, this is an opinion and the formula I use while team building. Many builders have their own personal forumlas (though I think TFL and I are fairly close on full stall, but he went semistall recently). Also remember that you can add pokemon to these roles I didn't mention (exp, if you wanted to use Stunfisk as a Scizor/TF counter, be my guest). I only use the common ones I think of most often. You won't come out with a perfect working team, there are multiple options and you'll need to polish up after. There isn't 6 roles here, I plan on having 10. The reason is occasionally you get two roles in one, and you have a bonus spot. You don't have to aim for it, you'll generally cover at least two roles without having to try. Only the 7th is really of any importance if you get past.
Now, before we start: This isn't a perfect formula. Stall is not perfect, it will always have weaknesses. However, if you're good enough to at least pick your weaknesses, you're better off in the long run. This formula is also subject to your own interpretation because of that. Say you don't feel countering Landorus is all that important. You'd rather check it somehow, or you feel that one counter is enough (this formula gives a check+counter minimum should it be followed). You can change out the landorus section for an Azumarill section, or move up my 7th section. I just feel that the 6/7 here give you the absolute most coverage on threats, due to how balanced teams of this nature will turn out. Using this formula, you'll be able to build multiple different teams without falling into a "mold" but rather having some variety while not sacrificing power and security. Now, onto the formula.
The Aegislash Counters: Grass Type/Flying/Ground Type (Aka the Ice Weak).
When building stall with no specific pokemon in mind, I'll always start from this type. This is by far the most important type for a cornerstone in stall this generation. Right now, the pool for this first slot is an Aegi counter. Choosing Spdef Gliscor, Mandibuzz, AV Tornadus, Chesnaught, Amoongus, Venusaur-mega, or hippowdon is basically the first choice of my team.
Checks: Occasionally I'll consider others, Slowking w/AV or something like Heatran but they have other places I could use them if I really wanted and heatran isn't as good a good a counter as the others. Scizor-mega gains mention here because it can threaten as a check and setup sweeper. However, if you plan to go this path, choose a ground type once you get to the ZardX counter in order to check Aegi once more. The main advantage to Scizor is his ability to take care of Gardevoir-mega, which only has two counters in Aegislash and Scizor, but there are multiple checks on this list such as Chansey and Aggron-mega.
Why is this Aegi counter first first? The main issue is they set a precedence for what weaknesses you'll have: Common with Ice, mainly. It allows me to have a good type to cover when adding my next role, and the two I counter next only have counters that resist ice. This is also a strong gauge for the differing weaknesses you'll have while moving on, as the others gain more consistent weaknesses. The type of weakness you'll have coming out of here swings dramatically: electric swings from Immune (Ground) to Resist (Grass) to Weakness (Fly). Water swings from Weak (Ground) to Neutral (Fly) to Resists (Grass). Grass swings from Weak (Ground) to the other two resisting.
This is especially crucial when looking at mons like Rotom-Wash, Raikou and any electric not named Thundurus. This is also important because Grass types are keldeo counters (outside of Chesnaught) while flying types will also have to squeeze a second one in for one of: Pinsir, Landorus. AV Torn, Mandibuzz and Gliscor can basically 2 in 1 Aegi AND Lando for the most part (assume some spdef on mandi if so) but flying means you'll probably take a second electric weakness elsewhere. This is why, for the most part, I'd consider gliscor the mon of choice for ground or flying. The only issue with Gliscor is you really don't gain rock OR defog support, which is hard when dealing with your flying spots as they generally do take care of that.
Note that this spot is literally the cornerstone. The two grass/poison types are especially important for taking Azumarill. Chesnaught takes Bisharp, and Gliscor is a decent Mawile check. Bisharp and Azumarill is not written in as a major counter, generally just a footnote to remember you need to pick a counter up somewhere, so picking it off here is not a bad idea. All of these do some work vs variants of Mega Gyarados.
The Flying Types will be called upon later as a possible counter/check to Landorus. You do want a counter and a check so it isn't a bad idea to pick one up here. The Spdef Gliscor can't counter Heracross mega but will sub as a great stall breaker, making life easier.
Hippowdon is nice as a ZardX/Mawile check and a great "Whatever" wall. It lacks the bulk to counter major hitters, but it takes such a wide variety of threats that the mixed bulk losing out on a few top tier stall breakers is overlooked in lieu of it having the bulk to take more threats proficiently.
The Talonflame/MegaScizor Counter: Waters/Fires (The Ice Resist)
The second role has to send you to counter something that would also take on an ice resist. Generally, the Talonflame/Scizor counter. Heatran, Vaporeon, Gyarados, Rotom-wash/Heat, Physically Defensive Blastoise, Alomomola, Arcanine are all great choices. Quagsire will work as a band check and SD counter, but most mons here should aim to counter both talonflame sets. Slowbro can work as a Talonflame counter and Scizor check. It is a great mon that can survive U-turns and Knock off until scizor goes +2. If you choose Skarmory later on, he becomes an excellent choice. I generally avoid Vaporeon unless you want a full cleric here and can't afford one later. The only reason to bypass Alomomola like this is if you need a better burn spammer or really need heal bell.
Note that the second role of these mons is to take on Mawile as a check, so generally a burn move is required. Bisharp may also be required to be checked here, as water/fires are resists to his steel stab. Because this is where most of the burn support comes from, this is also where you'd attempt to his a threat that slips through like Medicham or Heracross Mega. Slowbro is a good idea if you can't squeeze an extra counter to medicham, and the fairy clerics and flying type mons (seen as aegi, pinsir and lando counters) can provide a good check to Heracross.
There are a few oddities about this choice. Heatran/Alomomola/Blastoise all might like Spdef spreads. If you choose a spdef blastoise, he's going to move to check both mons here and isn't used as this spot (but can supplement). Using him in Spdef, you can void this spot altogether and add in a mon like Skarmory that will help Scizor/TF checking issue without adding to an ice weakness. Note that Spdef Blastoise might lose vs banded brave bird, so a fallback is needed. Everything else not mentioned as a spdef option will claim a physically defensive spread, have a burn move for stab and devote one move to recovery.
The differences between fire and water are worth noting. Fire is generally another SR weakness outside of heatran, meaning that if you chose mandi in the first set, it may be worth investing in a defog skarmory later on over defog mandi because of the pressure to alleviate hazards being increased. Fire is also responsible for outside tasks such as Aegislash checking and may end up responsible for checking a Mega Gardevoir. Fairies in general would be patched here, although expect Magic Guard Clefable to need a more defined counter. Water types offer far more defensive stability and will be responsible for ZardX checking, but can be an added liability if Mandbuzz was taken first for the Electric weakness that grows. Even if a grass type was chosen, HP Flying Thundurus is a threat.... At this point, thundurus is an incredible threat to stall due to taking on anything in the first two (bar fire mons here) with one of the moveset variations (HP flying or Ice).
Also note that if you plan on using CharizardX, it cannot fill as a Talonflame counter. Note that you'd fit ZardX in the next category and thus should avoid a fire here.
The Thundurus Counter: Strong Cleric Role (or Normal/Fairy/Electric/Dragon type)
This is one of the toughest decisions for stall and it has to be made early. The reason is you'll have to layer a few more checks do to his shaky set tendency. If he runs HP Ice and you chose an Amoongus, you already have a very solid counter as it will fail to break through until Thundyi starts boosting. If Hp Flying and you have Gliscor, the same goes. This exists for many of the first mon choices and Rotom-H out of the second. The generally accepted full counters for this part are listed in order of effectiveness. Charizard-X, Chansey, Raikou, Unaware Clefable, Porygon2, Sylveon, Latias, Rotom-Heat. Gardevoir-Mega CAN work here, however I do find her underwhelming and would rather devote my mega elsewhere. To each his own, though, it would fit somewhere in between Raikou and P2. Note that Gliscor, MegaVen, Amoongus and Hippowdon from the first section all are good checks depending on sets.
Out of these, ZardX will counter just about every set. Chansey loses to Knock Off + Super Power but after Knock off, it's easy to see coming. Raikou is probably better than Chansey here, but chansey has better outside utility. Clef doesn't have as great Spdef, but is neutral to all moves and doesn't mind Nasty Plot. P2 will lose to what Chansey loses to, but kills Thundy faster, just lacking the utility.
If you choose a cleric here, you're basically set. There is one other spot to choose a cleric, but if you want a fairy cleric you cannot sub it in there. If choosing a fire here, you'd be best off going back and subbing in a water at the last spot. Electrics like Raikou and Rotom-H both take residual damage so just remember that they add more to the need for spin/defog support case. There is one area coming up where a defogger can be added, (2 technically but the other is a cleric spot).
As this is one of your monster special walls, they may be first call to take Mega Gardevoir. Between this and the Landorus-I counter, you should at least be able to do some damage. However, remember that there are only two full counters to Gardevoir-mega, and these are Aegislash and Scizor-mega. If you wish to use them, Aegislash is a decent Thundurus counter.
The Landorus-I/ZardY/Keldeo counter... (Levitating Psychic, SpDef Monsters, Flying Type)
While kind of a fallacy to imply there is one, we have to squeeze to try. The only Spdef Monster is Chansey, so if you chose chansey last round, choosing a check is fine here. Due to the nature of already having flying types in the first and major spdef counters in the second, this role can already technically have all the pokemon to fill it up, giving you the ability to aim at the 7th spot. There are a few philosophies to Landorus-i: It CAN be countered with a few mons, or you're better off checking it with one. Assuming you have not taken one of Latias, Mandibuzz, AV Torn Gliscor, or Chansey, you are best off taking the second philosophy. However, I still suggest Chansey here if you don't have a cleric chosen yet (Vaporeon/Alomomola/Sylveon/Clefable/GardMega being the aforementioned).
The checking Philosophy runs that out speeding Landorus is necessary. That, or you can threaten it out with a move that will OHKO at any point (generally talking calm mind) and survive one hit. In this category, I generally consider Mega Aerodactyl (ice fang), Latias, Specs Keldeo as the main mons. (Keldeo does have a few conditions: you have a semi-decent check to zard outside of this, or HP Rock Keldeo which is guaranteed to OHKO.) LO Azelf is an option, as well. Of course, there are tons of options as all you're looking for is a good boltbeam user that can outspeed base 101s.
Spdef Blastoise gains mention here because he can switch in like a counter with 48 SpA and threaten an OHKO. However, he is in need of cleric support to do so. If the cleric support to him is strong, he works like more of the counters. Bronzong is also worthy of a mention due to his upcoming role as a possible cover for Pinsir-mega. He's more used if you're squeezed for space and need a stealth rock setter but will not handle ZardY. This is okay if you took Chansey or Raikou last round, or if you just want to take an auxiliary mon that doubles as a ZardY check/counter later on.
The countering Philosophy is far harder... Chansey, Mandibuzz, AV Tornadus-T, Cresselia, CBBNite, Spdef Gyarados are the only ones I'd consider Landorus "Counters". The nice thing is, all of them (exception:Chansey [re] Keldeo) also take care of keldeo and ZardY while watching Landorus. The flying types are by far the best here, as Knock Off is prevalent for Chansey and tags Latias, Cresselia and can hurt Tornadus as well. Note that AV Torn and Mandi cannot counter ZardY. They are more considered for their work earlier as an Aegi counter/check. Picking up a dragon here isn't a bad idea, as dragons are very solid vs ZardY for the coverage against Grass/Fire. Even a Spdef Fire type like Victini could fill in if needed, and if ZardX was chosen in the last section, he'll do fine to supplement.
Note here: If you didn't pick up a mon here due to having 2 of Latias/Chansey/mandi/Gliscor/Gyarados (Which would be a mixed spread now), this is fine. A lot of stall will try to get away with just one (generally chansey) However, I strongly urge you to run two. There is an opportunity to grab Mega Aero once more, which could save a spot as well.
The Pinsir-Mega counter: (Levitating/FlyingElectric/Steel/Rock Types or Monster Physical Wall)
Pinsir is still an absolute monster. You CAN check him down, but if you chose to check Landorus, unless the two overlap you don't want to check Pinsir (which they may: Ice is a common weakness to both, and boltbeam/rock coverage is recommended to get ZardY as well). Let's start this off by saying quite simply: Rocks are NOT a counter to Pinsir-mega. Yeah, in worst case scenario you take on a pinsir weakness and say "Maybe I can use the rocks to force pressure onto pinsir/CHECK him". Not counter. I'd still recommend lots of scald/burn moves around if for some reason you didn't heed my advice and take a full counter. I won't talk about checks beyond Landorus-T, which has some defensive utility as a check to Mega Mawile, Scizor, Terrakion and most of the physical attackers.
The mons that fit the the above description and are worth looking into are Bronzong, Skarmory, Solrock, Zapdos, Mega Aerodactyl, Aggron-Mega, Rhyperior, and Rotom-Heat/Rotom-Wash.
Note that the best counter here is Skarmory. Mega Aerodactyl is unique to this list as the only one that outspeeds Pinsir-mega, so it countering still means it only takes one hit. Rotom-Wash and Heat came up earlier, although due to the prevalence or bird spam if you decide to skip this section because you have them, make sure you have a check somewhere. If you picked up Latias, CBBNite, Raikou, or a Lando-i check, make sure they have electric/ice/rock coverage or priority in Dnite's case. I don't recommend skipping this section as this is one of three main physical wall sections (TF counter and the next one being the other two). Note that I didn't mention Zapdos in Landorus-I because I feel devoting all out to Pinsir-mega is you're best option so the spread should be undeniably physical.
Bronzong's use is to cover both this one and landorus as a sort of counter (with cleric support) and rock setter. He is unique as the only mon that can counter both Lando and Pinsir Mega at the same time (needs a mixed set), given full HP. He has utility but not much attack. Solrock will set rocks, has reliable recovery and takes both Talonflame AND Pinsir, but cannot take Scizor so it wasn't mentioned earlier. Aggron-Mega is a great wall but will need some good cleric support. He generally relies on counter to take down Pinsir-mega, though head smash can be used... with unreliable accuracy. Rhyperior is nice because he also is a hard counter to ZardX, but he presents a great deal of weaknesses.
This slot is also noted to be one of the main places to pick up a Heracross-mega counter. If you didn't pick a fairy cleric, Gliscor/AV torn as the aegi counter, or Arcanine as the TF counter (outspeed + wisp), it is highly suggested you counter Heracross-mega here. This isn't terribly challenging as every mon here has either flying type or really nice bulk bar bronzong and Solrock.
Because this slot is also such a huge physical wall, this also falls as one of the two spots non-bd Azumarill is countered. BD azum can be countered earlier through Latias w/Tbolt (as the Thundurus/Landorus/ZardY check/counter set), Unaware Clefable and Quagsire, which has roles in the waters for ice resist and below as a ZardX counter. If you don't have a counter after finishing your pick here, you either need to take quagsire next or go back and grab amoongus or venusaur-mega in the first slot.
The ZardX Check, Bisharp support (Bulky Grounds, Bulky Waters)
This one is loose as all hell and may draw from earlier mons. If you chose Aerodactyl-mega, Latias, Heatran, Vap/Alomomola, you have a decent but shaky check. Aggron Mega is incredibly shaky but takes a +1 Flare Blitz and counters back with almost nothing left. The mons here are generally not fantastic counters to ZardX, so this is also another one I suggest outlying two to. For adding, I suggest Rhyperior, Physically Defensive Gliscor and Hippowdon (meaning they can't counter aegi), Lati (I prefer scarf in case opponent DDs), Landorus-t, Quagsire, Gyadaos(-mega), Thick Fat Azumarill or even Swampert. Most of these may have to play out as a check if you run into an SD Outrage Zard. Azumarill then becomes the only counter, but the outside utility is questionable. Due to the ground types here, it is easy to pick up a stealth rocker if you don't have one yet. Note that Rhyperior is by far the best counter when viewing his utility, only beaten by wisp zard (which is much easier to manage) and SD Outrage, which it can still beat if it checks. These mons should also support your bisharp countering if you haven't covered it earlier. Mega Gyarados, Quagsire, Hippowdon, full HP Landot, Gliscor, and Swampert can all check/counter Bisharp to varying extents.
Due to the stress to also take Bisharp, I didn't mention Slowbro. However, if you need a check (Twave variant is a decent kinda counter too) and have Bisharp countered, Foul Play/Twave Slowbro is a pretty good check to a boosting ZardX. The advantage is taking care of a bulky water right now and having a mega medicham counter as well.
The 7-10 (The Aegi section)
A lot of the reason these 7+ sets are 7+ and not main 6 is because they are far more restricting. Mons like Heracross mega are covered more naturally with this formula than theses (Gard/Medi/Kyub/Maw/Clef). If you have one of these already covered, skip it and move to the next. One check/counter should be enough for each one of these. For the most part, I'll mention all counters i can think of, not just all viable ones.
Remember that Aegi will counter like 90% of all the sets you can find in these next sections. It's okay to choose him but he does occasionally open up a bad weakness to ground, fire or dark. If you have that utility, he does cover off more than any other one down here. However, there are still other very good options.
The Medicham-Mega Counter, Non BD Azumarill Check: (Bulky Psychics/Ghosts)
So you'll most likely get here and note a few things. But for Slowbro in the water/fire section, Cresselia in Lando section, Aegislash in the thundurus section, Mega Medicham can run near untouched through the team. You have to rely on scald burns and maybe even a couple of speedy mons (AV torn for example) to take care of it. If you want to skip this one, make sure you have protect on some of your movesets to lure out HJK and something that can check it. Well, it's the next mon I suggest countering, although 7-9 are really your choice in order.
Mew, Slowbro, Aegislash, Cresseila, Sableye, and Spiritomb are the short list of counters. Slowbro is nice because it can do multiple sets well, including Twave, Assault Vest and even a screen set. His coverage will also patch up some mons via offense and he allows burn spamming with scald. Mew is incredible for stall breaking, running wisp on this set. If you somehow failed to have hazard clearing, mew can patch that. It can also patch rock setting. Cresselia can counter Keldeo, ZardY, Lando and Medicham is an afterthought as it runs Spdef. Here, if you have good covers to your other mons, a CM sweeper is not out of the question. The ability to burn pass through Psycho shift, which with rest/sleep talk also can sleep pass is a rather unique set as well.
Sableye is both a counter lead and a suicide sweeper stop, taking multiple sweepers down by priority wisp. It has decent bulk, can check aegi (and beat non-LO), and has a mega in the future. Spiritomb is odd but offers infiltrator willowisp and has very good bulk compared to sableye. His lack of recovery is a bit damning, but he doesn't do bad with a rest set. I don't suggest either of these two do to Azumarill, but if you already have Azumarill covered, you're free to choose this one.
If you're just looking to add a check, go to the Pinsir-mega line and add a true flying type like Skarmory or into the Landorus line and pick up TornT with AV.
The Mega Gardevoir/Clefable Counter: Bulky Steels.
Aegislash and Scizor-mega are basically the only two true Mega Gardevoir counters. To be honest, you really should be using Aegislash here. If you want to just use the section to check if you're fine against gard without full countering it, Heatran W/flast cannon can check it down well. If it isn't CM, Seismic Toss Chansey will cover it fine without any help. Checking MGard with Ferrothorn is not a bad option, either. Ferro will provide a hazard lead and Gyro ball will KO any set not wisp (2hkos wisp so w/e).
If looking just for Clefable, you gain options in poison types such as clear smog amoongus and sludge bomb venu, which will stop the setup. Taunt is your friend vs Clefable, as even Spdef Gliscor can counter MG CM clefable if it taunts it before clef gets to +2. Clef can be more difficult because it runs flame thrower but Heatran w/roar, taunt or flash cannon [if roar, make sure you continuously get chip damage when it comes in], Gliscor with taunt and a few other mons can take care of it before it sets up. Poisons here are a good option, steels not quite as well.
The Mega Mawile Check: Bulky Fire/Poison/Steel
"A mawile walked into the bar and fell over because the counter was bad". It's true... Mawile is one of those mons you have to either have one of a select few counters, which are somewhat suboptimal, or you have to have multiple checks. The two hard counters are Wisp Victini and Arcanine. The softer counters are Venusaur, Amoongus, heatran, Aegislash, Gliscor, Skarmory and Rotom-h/Landot (both true checks). Edit: Added CharizardY here. It can counter (wisp set+roost) but must be very careful of rocks. There were quite a few mawile checks and counters built into the original process, in fact everything mentioned here was listed somewhere up there.
Kyurem-Black: Counters: Steels W/O ground weakness or Fairies
I highly suggest having a Kyub counter built in as a cleric. It generally makes things easier, and again all of the Kyub counters were mentioned above. Kyub is countered by Scizor-mega and Ferrothorn, Physically defensive sylveon (meaning it doesn't fair as well vs Thundy where it was originally mentioned) soft countered by Clefable. Other mons such as Chansey have enough bulk to live but cannot do any damage if it's a 101 sub kyub. I believe Aggron-Mega can check Kyurem and is one of the few mons to take a fully physical kyub easily.
Just want to show a few teams now that took this philosophy.
Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Counter
- Taunt
- Iron Head
- Rest
So I started this team around a Slowbro+Chesnaught core, covering aegi and taking care of my ice weakness. I added in Sylveon and Latias to cover Thundurus, as I had no stop for him whatsoever. I skipped out on a lando counter, already having latias and went to my Pinsir-mega counter. Not wanting to add more holes to electrics, I didn't add Skarmory and took my mega in Aggron, as steel had good synergy with my cleric. Realizing I needed a ZardX check, but also a lando check, I added Swampert. I had three resists to grass, but two weaknesses and Venusaur mega could take half my team with ease so I changed out Slowbro for Gyarados to take Talonflame, Scizor and ZardX with Swampert's assistance.
Started a Chesnaught+Blastoise core for the standard Aegi+ice resist. Chansey was my best support option for the two lacking recovery and absorbed Landorus AND thundurus well. Skarmory became my pinsir-mega check and my physical wall. I added Latias as a secondary Landorus check and my best option for ZardX sets, giving me space to add Aegi to polish off issues with Mega Mawile and the lot. Note while I do have a lot of physical fire issues, the main user is checked off well by lati and talonflame does have to think about what it spams.
Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Hidden Power [Fire]
I added Amoongus not because of Aegi but because of the ability to take BD azumarill, who I figured to take over quickly. Covering the ice weakness with blastoise mega (with support to TF/Sciz from Glisc/Skarm respectively) and the Thundy/Lando weakness with Chansey, I moved to Skarm for pinsir so I could use Spdef blastoise. Wanting a good check to zardX and lando at the same time, I ran Spdef Gliscor in conjunction with Blastoise to ease over a ZardX issue. Getting to the end of my list, I realized I didn't care much for Gard because S-toss chansey and Gliscor could both do some damage... I had enough attackers to possibly eek out some wins. However, Medicham was a monster. I considered solidifying a zardX issue with Slowbro, but I would've added too many grass weaknesses and no way to damage Venu w/leech seed. I defaulted to Mew, who had the ability to wisp MMega, giving it one less switchin (to now having one mon it can come in against and set up on, being chansey). The stall breaking power+wisp support was something I'd lose if blastoise got worn down and I didn't want to let physical threats run free. Note that I am a bit weak to M-Hera, I have thought about patching that up by Skarm running Brave bird+WW over taunt+counter but haven't made any decisions yet
So, I hope you find this helpful. If aegi gets banned, I'll adjust it.
Edit: Effective use of hide tags. Also Sugarhigh, any preschooler can read 5k words easy.
As a driver in the OU room and being constantly idle, I often accumulate a bunch of private messages about "Can you help me with this stall team" or "Can you help me build a stall team". Lemme just say when you want help from scratch, this is a forever done project as it takes me hours to build each odd stall team, and I'd imagine the research to understand stall when learning it would take similar amounts of time. What I'm trying to get at is while I'm slamming information about what roles you need, I understand there's a bunch of information overload... But I've got other things to do (such as pay attention in class). I thought I'd write up a formula for stall in an Aegislash meta, and should it be banned I'll adjust it for the aegiless meta. That way, I can just link this. Not only that, it's better than scotti's "Water/Fire/Grass/Skarm+Chansey+Stall Breaker". I've seen a few "guides" that tried to nail down what exactly stall is doing but none of them really did justice... scotti's formula is better and more correct than those for the most part.
Keep in mind, this is an opinion and the formula I use while team building. Many builders have their own personal forumlas (though I think TFL and I are fairly close on full stall, but he went semistall recently). Also remember that you can add pokemon to these roles I didn't mention (exp, if you wanted to use Stunfisk as a Scizor/TF counter, be my guest). I only use the common ones I think of most often. You won't come out with a perfect working team, there are multiple options and you'll need to polish up after. There isn't 6 roles here, I plan on having 10. The reason is occasionally you get two roles in one, and you have a bonus spot. You don't have to aim for it, you'll generally cover at least two roles without having to try. Only the 7th is really of any importance if you get past.
Now, before we start: This isn't a perfect formula. Stall is not perfect, it will always have weaknesses. However, if you're good enough to at least pick your weaknesses, you're better off in the long run. This formula is also subject to your own interpretation because of that. Say you don't feel countering Landorus is all that important. You'd rather check it somehow, or you feel that one counter is enough (this formula gives a check+counter minimum should it be followed). You can change out the landorus section for an Azumarill section, or move up my 7th section. I just feel that the 6/7 here give you the absolute most coverage on threats, due to how balanced teams of this nature will turn out. Using this formula, you'll be able to build multiple different teams without falling into a "mold" but rather having some variety while not sacrificing power and security. Now, onto the formula.
The Aegislash Counters: Grass Type/Flying/Ground Type (Aka the Ice Weak).
When building stall with no specific pokemon in mind, I'll always start from this type. This is by far the most important type for a cornerstone in stall this generation. Right now, the pool for this first slot is an Aegi counter. Choosing Spdef Gliscor, Mandibuzz, AV Tornadus, Chesnaught, Amoongus, Venusaur-mega, or hippowdon is basically the first choice of my team.
Checks: Occasionally I'll consider others, Slowking w/AV or something like Heatran but they have other places I could use them if I really wanted and heatran isn't as good a good a counter as the others. Scizor-mega gains mention here because it can threaten as a check and setup sweeper. However, if you plan to go this path, choose a ground type once you get to the ZardX counter in order to check Aegi once more. The main advantage to Scizor is his ability to take care of Gardevoir-mega, which only has two counters in Aegislash and Scizor, but there are multiple checks on this list such as Chansey and Aggron-mega.
Why is this Aegi counter first first? The main issue is they set a precedence for what weaknesses you'll have: Common with Ice, mainly. It allows me to have a good type to cover when adding my next role, and the two I counter next only have counters that resist ice. This is also a strong gauge for the differing weaknesses you'll have while moving on, as the others gain more consistent weaknesses. The type of weakness you'll have coming out of here swings dramatically: electric swings from Immune (Ground) to Resist (Grass) to Weakness (Fly). Water swings from Weak (Ground) to Neutral (Fly) to Resists (Grass). Grass swings from Weak (Ground) to the other two resisting.
This is especially crucial when looking at mons like Rotom-Wash, Raikou and any electric not named Thundurus. This is also important because Grass types are keldeo counters (outside of Chesnaught) while flying types will also have to squeeze a second one in for one of: Pinsir, Landorus. AV Torn, Mandibuzz and Gliscor can basically 2 in 1 Aegi AND Lando for the most part (assume some spdef on mandi if so) but flying means you'll probably take a second electric weakness elsewhere. This is why, for the most part, I'd consider gliscor the mon of choice for ground or flying. The only issue with Gliscor is you really don't gain rock OR defog support, which is hard when dealing with your flying spots as they generally do take care of that.
Note that this spot is literally the cornerstone. The two grass/poison types are especially important for taking Azumarill. Chesnaught takes Bisharp, and Gliscor is a decent Mawile check. Bisharp and Azumarill is not written in as a major counter, generally just a footnote to remember you need to pick a counter up somewhere, so picking it off here is not a bad idea. All of these do some work vs variants of Mega Gyarados.
The Flying Types will be called upon later as a possible counter/check to Landorus. You do want a counter and a check so it isn't a bad idea to pick one up here. The Spdef Gliscor can't counter Heracross mega but will sub as a great stall breaker, making life easier.
Hippowdon is nice as a ZardX/Mawile check and a great "Whatever" wall. It lacks the bulk to counter major hitters, but it takes such a wide variety of threats that the mixed bulk losing out on a few top tier stall breakers is overlooked in lieu of it having the bulk to take more threats proficiently.
The Talonflame/MegaScizor Counter: Waters/Fires (The Ice Resist)
The second role has to send you to counter something that would also take on an ice resist. Generally, the Talonflame/Scizor counter. Heatran, Vaporeon, Gyarados, Rotom-wash/Heat, Physically Defensive Blastoise, Alomomola, Arcanine are all great choices. Quagsire will work as a band check and SD counter, but most mons here should aim to counter both talonflame sets. Slowbro can work as a Talonflame counter and Scizor check. It is a great mon that can survive U-turns and Knock off until scizor goes +2. If you choose Skarmory later on, he becomes an excellent choice. I generally avoid Vaporeon unless you want a full cleric here and can't afford one later. The only reason to bypass Alomomola like this is if you need a better burn spammer or really need heal bell.
Note that the second role of these mons is to take on Mawile as a check, so generally a burn move is required. Bisharp may also be required to be checked here, as water/fires are resists to his steel stab. Because this is where most of the burn support comes from, this is also where you'd attempt to his a threat that slips through like Medicham or Heracross Mega. Slowbro is a good idea if you can't squeeze an extra counter to medicham, and the fairy clerics and flying type mons (seen as aegi, pinsir and lando counters) can provide a good check to Heracross.
There are a few oddities about this choice. Heatran/Alomomola/Blastoise all might like Spdef spreads. If you choose a spdef blastoise, he's going to move to check both mons here and isn't used as this spot (but can supplement). Using him in Spdef, you can void this spot altogether and add in a mon like Skarmory that will help Scizor/TF checking issue without adding to an ice weakness. Note that Spdef Blastoise might lose vs banded brave bird, so a fallback is needed. Everything else not mentioned as a spdef option will claim a physically defensive spread, have a burn move for stab and devote one move to recovery.
The differences between fire and water are worth noting. Fire is generally another SR weakness outside of heatran, meaning that if you chose mandi in the first set, it may be worth investing in a defog skarmory later on over defog mandi because of the pressure to alleviate hazards being increased. Fire is also responsible for outside tasks such as Aegislash checking and may end up responsible for checking a Mega Gardevoir. Fairies in general would be patched here, although expect Magic Guard Clefable to need a more defined counter. Water types offer far more defensive stability and will be responsible for ZardX checking, but can be an added liability if Mandbuzz was taken first for the Electric weakness that grows. Even if a grass type was chosen, HP Flying Thundurus is a threat.... At this point, thundurus is an incredible threat to stall due to taking on anything in the first two (bar fire mons here) with one of the moveset variations (HP flying or Ice).
Also note that if you plan on using CharizardX, it cannot fill as a Talonflame counter. Note that you'd fit ZardX in the next category and thus should avoid a fire here.
The Thundurus Counter: Strong Cleric Role (or Normal/Fairy/Electric/Dragon type)
This is one of the toughest decisions for stall and it has to be made early. The reason is you'll have to layer a few more checks do to his shaky set tendency. If he runs HP Ice and you chose an Amoongus, you already have a very solid counter as it will fail to break through until Thundyi starts boosting. If Hp Flying and you have Gliscor, the same goes. This exists for many of the first mon choices and Rotom-H out of the second. The generally accepted full counters for this part are listed in order of effectiveness. Charizard-X, Chansey, Raikou, Unaware Clefable, Porygon2, Sylveon, Latias, Rotom-Heat. Gardevoir-Mega CAN work here, however I do find her underwhelming and would rather devote my mega elsewhere. To each his own, though, it would fit somewhere in between Raikou and P2. Note that Gliscor, MegaVen, Amoongus and Hippowdon from the first section all are good checks depending on sets.
Out of these, ZardX will counter just about every set. Chansey loses to Knock Off + Super Power but after Knock off, it's easy to see coming. Raikou is probably better than Chansey here, but chansey has better outside utility. Clef doesn't have as great Spdef, but is neutral to all moves and doesn't mind Nasty Plot. P2 will lose to what Chansey loses to, but kills Thundy faster, just lacking the utility.
If you choose a cleric here, you're basically set. There is one other spot to choose a cleric, but if you want a fairy cleric you cannot sub it in there. If choosing a fire here, you'd be best off going back and subbing in a water at the last spot. Electrics like Raikou and Rotom-H both take residual damage so just remember that they add more to the need for spin/defog support case. There is one area coming up where a defogger can be added, (2 technically but the other is a cleric spot).
As this is one of your monster special walls, they may be first call to take Mega Gardevoir. Between this and the Landorus-I counter, you should at least be able to do some damage. However, remember that there are only two full counters to Gardevoir-mega, and these are Aegislash and Scizor-mega. If you wish to use them, Aegislash is a decent Thundurus counter.
The Landorus-I/ZardY/Keldeo counter... (Levitating Psychic, SpDef Monsters, Flying Type)
While kind of a fallacy to imply there is one, we have to squeeze to try. The only Spdef Monster is Chansey, so if you chose chansey last round, choosing a check is fine here. Due to the nature of already having flying types in the first and major spdef counters in the second, this role can already technically have all the pokemon to fill it up, giving you the ability to aim at the 7th spot. There are a few philosophies to Landorus-i: It CAN be countered with a few mons, or you're better off checking it with one. Assuming you have not taken one of Latias, Mandibuzz, AV Torn Gliscor, or Chansey, you are best off taking the second philosophy. However, I still suggest Chansey here if you don't have a cleric chosen yet (Vaporeon/Alomomola/Sylveon/Clefable/GardMega being the aforementioned).
The checking Philosophy runs that out speeding Landorus is necessary. That, or you can threaten it out with a move that will OHKO at any point (generally talking calm mind) and survive one hit. In this category, I generally consider Mega Aerodactyl (ice fang), Latias, Specs Keldeo as the main mons. (Keldeo does have a few conditions: you have a semi-decent check to zard outside of this, or HP Rock Keldeo which is guaranteed to OHKO.) LO Azelf is an option, as well. Of course, there are tons of options as all you're looking for is a good boltbeam user that can outspeed base 101s.
Spdef Blastoise gains mention here because he can switch in like a counter with 48 SpA and threaten an OHKO. However, he is in need of cleric support to do so. If the cleric support to him is strong, he works like more of the counters. Bronzong is also worthy of a mention due to his upcoming role as a possible cover for Pinsir-mega. He's more used if you're squeezed for space and need a stealth rock setter but will not handle ZardY. This is okay if you took Chansey or Raikou last round, or if you just want to take an auxiliary mon that doubles as a ZardY check/counter later on.
The countering Philosophy is far harder... Chansey, Mandibuzz, AV Tornadus-T, Cresselia, CBBNite, Spdef Gyarados are the only ones I'd consider Landorus "Counters". The nice thing is, all of them also take care of keldeo and ZardY while watching Landorus. The flying types are by far the best here, as Knock Off is prevalent for Chansey and tags Latias, Cresselia and can hurt Tornadus as well. Note that AV Torn and Mandi cannot counter ZardY. They are more considered for their work earlier as an Aegi counter/check. Picking up a dragon here isn't a bad idea, as dragons are very solid vs ZardY for the coverage against Grass/Fire. Even a Spdef Fire type like Victini could fill in if needed, and if ZardX was chosen in the last section, he'll do fine to supplement.
Note here: If you didn't pick up a mon here due to having 2 of Latias/Chansey/mandi/Gliscor/Gyarados (Which would be a mixed spread now), this is fine. A lot of stall will try to get away with just one (generally chansey) However, I strongly urge you to run two. There is an opportunity to grab Mega Aero once more, which could save a spot as well.
The Pinsir-Mega counter: (Levitating/FlyingElectric/Steel/Rock Types or Monster Physical Wall)
Pinsir is still an absolute monster. You CAN check him down, but if you chose to check Landorus, unless the two overlap you don't want to check Pinsir (which they may: Ice is a common weakness to both, and boltbeam/rock coverage is recommended to get ZardY as well). Let's start this off by saying quite simply: Rocks are NOT a counter to Pinsir-mega. Yeah, in worst case scenario you take on a pinsir weakness and say "Maybe I can use the rocks to force pressure onto pinsir/CHECK him". Not counter. I'd still recommend lots of scald/burn moves around if for some reason you didn't heed my advice and take a full counter. I won't talk about checks beyond Landorus-T, which has some defensive utility as a check to Mega Mawile, Scizor, Terrakion and most of the physical attackers.
The mons that fit the the above description and are worth looking into are Bronzong, Skarmory, Solrock, Zapdos, Mega Aerodactyl, Aggron-Mega, Rhyperior, and Rotom-Heat/Rotom-Wash.
Note that the best counter here is Skarmory. Mega Aerodactyl is unique to this list as the only one that outspeeds Pinsir-mega, so it countering still means it only takes one hit. Rotom-Wash and Heat came up earlier, although due to the prevalence or bird spam if you decide to skip this section because you have them, make sure you have a check somewhere. If you picked up Latias, CBBNite, Raikou, or a Lando-i check, make sure they have electric/ice/rock coverage or priority in Dnite's case. I don't recommend skipping this section as this is one of three main physical wall sections (TF counter and the next one being the other two). Note that I didn't mention Zapdos in Landorus-I because I feel devoting all out to Pinsir-mega is you're best option so the spread should be undeniably physical.
Bronzong's use is to cover both this one and landorus as a sort of counter (with cleric support) and rock setter. He is unique as the only mon that can counter both Lando and Pinsir Mega at the same time (needs a mixed set), given full HP. He has utility but not much attack. Solrock will set rocks, has reliable recovery and takes both Talonflame AND Pinsir, but cannot take Scizor so it wasn't mentioned earlier. Aggron-Mega is a great wall but will need some good cleric support. He generally relies on counter to take down Pinsir-mega, though head smash can be used... with unreliable accuracy. Rhyperior is nice because he also is a hard counter to ZardX, but he presents a great deal of weaknesses.
This slot is also noted to be one of the main places to pick up a Heracross-mega counter. If you didn't pick a fairy cleric, Gliscor/AV torn as the aegi counter, or Arcanine as the TF counter (outspeed + wisp), it is highly suggested you counter Heracross-mega here. This isn't terribly challenging as every mon here has either flying type or really nice bulk bar bronzong and Solrock.
Because this slot is also such a huge physical wall, this also falls as one of the two spots non-bd Azumarill is countered. BD azum can be countered earlier through Latias w/Tbolt (as the Thundurus/Landorus/ZardY check/counter set), Unaware Clefable and Quagsire, which has roles in the waters for ice resist and below as a ZardX counter. If you don't have a counter after finishing your pick here, you either need to take quagsire next or go back and grab amoongus or venusaur-mega in the first slot.
The ZardX Check, Bisharp support (Bulky Grounds, Bulky Waters)
This one is loose as all hell and may draw from earlier mons. If you chose Aerodactyl-mega, Latias, Heatran, Vap/Alomomola, you have a decent but shaky check. Aggron Mega is incredibly shaky but takes a +1 Flare Blitz and counters back with almost nothing left. The mons here are generally not fantastic counters to ZardX, so this is also another one I suggest outlying two to. For adding, I suggest Rhyperior, Physically Defensive Gliscor and Hippowdon (meaning they can't counter aegi), Lati (I prefer scarf in case opponent DDs), Landorus-t, Quagsire, Gyadaos(-mega), Thick Fat Azumarill or even Swampert. Most of these may have to play out as a check if you run into an SD Outrage Zard. Azumarill then becomes the only counter, but the outside utility is questionable. Due to the ground types here, it is easy to pick up a stealth rocker if you don't have one yet. Note that Rhyperior is by far the best counter when viewing his utility, only beaten by wisp zard (which is much easier to manage) and SD Outrage, which it can still beat if it checks. These mons should also support your bisharp countering if you haven't covered it earlier. Mega Gyarados, Quagsire, Hippowdon, full HP Landot, Gliscor, and Swampert can all check/counter Bisharp to varying extents.
The 7-10 (The Aegi section)
A lot of the reason these 7+ sets are 7+ and not main 6 is because they are far more restricting. Mons like Heracross mega are covered more naturally with this formula than theses (Gard/Medi/Kyub/Maw/Clef). If you have one of these already covered, skip it and move to the next. One check/counter should be enough for each one of these. For the most part, I'll mention all counters i can think of, not just all viable ones.
Remember that Aegi will counter like 90% of all the sets you can find in these next sections. It's okay to choose him but he does occasionally open up a bad weakness to ground, fire or dark. If you have that utility, he does cover off more than any other one down here. However, there are still other very good options.
The Medicham-Mega Counter, Non BD Azumarill Check: (Bulky Psychics/Ghosts)
So you'll most likely get here and note a few things. But for Slowbro in the water/fire section, Cresselia in Lando section, Aegislash in the thundurus section, Mega Medicham can run near untouched through the team. You have to rely on scald burns and maybe even a couple of speedy mons (AV torn for example) to take care of it. If you want to skip this one, make sure you have protect on some of your movesets to lure out HJK and something that can check it. Well, it's the next mon I suggest countering, although 7-9 are really your choice in order.
Mew, Slowbro, Aegislash, Cresseila, Sableye, and Spiritomb are the short list of counters. Slowbro is nice because it can do multiple sets well, including Twave, Assault Vest and even a screen set. His coverage will also patch up some mons via offense and he allows burn spamming with scald. Mew is incredible for stall breaking, running wisp on this set. If you somehow failed to have hazard clearing, mew can patch that. It can also patch rock setting. Cresselia can counter Keldeo, ZardY, Lando and Medicham is an afterthought as it runs Spdef. Here, if you have good covers to your other mons, a CM sweeper is not out of the question. The ability to burn pass through Psycho shift, which with rest/sleep talk also can sleep pass is a rather unique set as well.
Sableye is both a counter lead and a suicide sweeper stop, taking multiple sweepers down by priority wisp. It has decent bulk, can check aegi (and beat non-LO), and has a mega in the future. Spiritomb is odd but offers infiltrator willowisp and has very good bulk compared to sableye. His lack of recovery is a bit damning, but he doesn't do bad with a rest set. I don't suggest either of these two do to Azumarill, but if you already have Azumarill covered, you're free to choose this one.
If you're just looking to add a check, go to the Pinsir-mega line and add a true flying type like Skarmory or into the Landorus line and pick up TornT with AV.
The Mega Gardevoir/Clefable Counter: Bulky Steels.
Aegislash and Scizor-mega are basically the only two true Mega Gardevoir counters. To be honest, you really should be using Aegislash here. If you want to just use the section to check if you're fine against gard without full countering it, Heatran W/flast cannon can check it down well. If it isn't CM, Seismic Toss Chansey will cover it fine without any help. Checking MGard with Ferrothorn is not a bad option, either. Ferro will provide a hazard lead and Gyro ball will KO any set not wisp (2hkos wisp so w/e).
If looking just for Clefable, you gain options in poison types such as clear smog amoongus and sludge bomb venu, which will stop the setup. Taunt is your friend vs Clefable, as even Spdef Gliscor can counter MG CM clefable if it taunts it before clef gets to +2. Clef can be more difficult because it runs flame thrower but Heatran w/roar, taunt or flash cannon [if roar, make sure you continuously get chip damage when it comes in], Gliscor with taunt and a few other mons can take care of it before it sets up. Poisons here are a good option, steels not quite as well.
The Mega Mawile Check: Bulky Fire/Poison/Steel
"A mawile walked into the bar and fell over because the counter was bad". It's true... Mawile is one of those mons you have to either have one of a select few counters, which are somewhat suboptimal, or you have to have multiple checks. The two hard counters are Wisp Victini and Arcanine. The softer counters are Venusaur, Amoongus, heatran, Aegislash, Gliscor, Skarmory and Rotom-h/Landot (both true checks). There were quite a few mawile checks and counters built into the original process, in fact everything mentioned here was listed somewhere up there.
Kyurem-Black: Counters: Steels W/O ground weakness or Fairies
I highly suggest having a Kyub counter built in as a cleric. It generally makes things easier, and again all of the Kyub counters were mentioned above. Kyub is countered by Scizor-mega and Ferrothorn, Physically defensive sylveon (meaning it doesn't fair as well vs Thundy where it was originally mentioned) soft countered by Clefable. Other mons such as Chansey have enough bulk to live but cannot do any damage if it's a 101 sub kyub. I believe Aggron-Mega can check Kyurem and is one of the few mons to take a fully physical kyub easily.
Just want to show a few teams now that took this philosophy.
Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Counter
- Taunt
- Iron Head
- Rest
So I started this team around a Slowbro+Chesnaught core, covering aegi but not taking care of my ice weakness. I added in Sylveon and Latias to cover Thundurus, as I had no stop for him whatsoever. I skipped out on a lando counter, already having latias and went to my Pinsir-mega counter. Not wanting to add more holes to electrics, I didn't add Skarmory and took my mega in Aggron, as steel had good synergy with my cleric. Realizing I needed a ZardX check, but also a lando check, I added Swampert. I had three resists to grass, but two weaknesses and Venusaur mega could take half my team with ease so I changed out Slowbro for Gyarados to take Talonflame, Scizor and ZardX with Swampert's assistance.
Started a Chesnaught+Blastoise core for the standard Aegi+ice resist. Chansey was my best support option for the two lacking recovery and absorbed Landorus AND thundurus well. Skarmory became my pinsir-mega check and my physical wall. I added Latias as a secondary Landorus check and my best option for ZardX sets, giving me space to add Aegi to polish off issues with Mega Mawile and the lot. Note while I do have a lot of physical fire issues, the main user is checked off well by lati and talonflame does have to think about what it spams.
Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Hidden Power [Fire]
I added Amoongus not because of Aegi but because of the ability to take BD azumarill, who I figured to take over quickly. Covering the ice weakness with blastoise mega (with support to TF/Sciz from Glisc/Skarm respectively) and the Thundy/Lando weakness with Chansey, I moved to Skarm for pinsir so I could use Spdef blastoise. Wanting a good check to zardX and lando at the same time, I ran Spdef Gliscor in conjunction with Blastoise to ease over a ZardX issue. Getting to the end of my list, I realized I didn't care much for Gard because S-toss chansey and Gliscor could both do some damage... I had enough attackers to possibly eek out some wins. However, Medicham was a monster. I considered solidifying a zardX issue with Slowbro, but I would've added too many grass weaknesses and no way to damage Venu w/leech seed. I defaulted to Mew, who had the ability to wisp MMega, giving it one less switchin (to now having one mon it can come in against and set up on, being chansey). The stall breaking power+wisp support was something I'd lose if blastoise got worn down and I didn't want to let physical threats run free. Note that I am a bit weak to M-Hera, I have thought about patching that up by Skarm running Brave bird+WW over taunt+counter but haven't made any decisions yet
So, I hope you find this helpful. If aegi gets banned, I'll adjust it.
Edit: Effective use of hide tags. Also Sugarhigh, any preschooler can read 5k words easy.
Eh, I'll fix that wording. It was initially going to be just a footnote that Keldeo can be taken care of there if not taken care in the water/fire area, but so many of the lando counters can take Keldeo I just decided to add it to the header.
It would also be worth putting Charizard-Y in the Mawile counters section, Ajwf. Char-Y is actually really good for stall, as it also counters Lando-I due its naturally high SpD, meaning you don't need to sacrifice Chansey's Eviolite (which can lead to nasty things like a Latios sweep happening), and it also counters Bisharp and a lot of other stuff, which can free up room for team creativity rather nicely as it handles many annoying things in 1 slot. Even without attack investment, it still hits incredibly hard coming from base 159 in the sun, and offensive teams find it very difficult to switch into, especially repeatedly, when you can easily wear Latios down with WoW and Flamethrower is a natural 3HKO.
Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 135-160 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus in Sun: 262-310 (82.1 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As a driver in the OU room and being constantly idle, I often accumulate a bunch of private messages about "Can you help me with this stall team" or "Can you help me build a stall team". Lemme just say when you want help from scratch, this is a forever done project as it takes me hours to build each odd stall team, and I'd imagine the research to understand stall when learning it would take similar amounts of time. What I'm trying to get at is while I'm slamming information about what roles you need, I understand there's a bunch of information overload... But I've got other things to do (such as pay attention in class). I thought I'd write up a formula for stall in an Aegislash meta, and should it be banned I'll adjust it for the aegiless meta. That way, I can just link this. Not only that, it's better than scotti's "Water/Fire/Grass/Skarm+Chansey+Stall Breaker". I've seen a few "guides" that tried to nail down what exactly stall is doing but none of them really did justice... scotti's formula is better and more correct than those for the most part.
Keep in mind, this is an opinion and the formula I use while team building. Many builders have their own personal forumlas (though I think TFL and I are fairly close on full stall, but he went semistall recently). Also remember that you can add pokemon to these roles I didn't mention (exp, if you wanted to use Stunfisk as a Scizor/TF counter, be my guest). I only use the common ones I think of most often. You won't come out with a perfect working team, there are multiple options and you'll need to polish up after. There isn't 6 roles here, I plan on having 10. The reason is occasionally you get two roles in one, and you have a bonus spot. You don't have to aim for it, you'll generally cover at least two roles without having to try. Only the 7th is really of any importance if you get past.
Now, before we start: This isn't a perfect formula. Stall is not perfect, it will always have weaknesses. However, if you're good enough to at least pick your weaknesses, you're better off in the long run. This formula is also subject to your own interpretation because of that. Say you don't feel countering Landorus is all that important. You'd rather check it somehow, or you feel that one counter is enough (this formula gives a check+counter minimum should it be followed). You can change out the landorus section for an Azumarill section, or move up my 7th section. I just feel that the 6/7 here give you the absolute most coverage on threats, due to how balanced teams of this nature will turn out. Using this formula, you'll be able to build multiple different teams without falling into a "mold" but rather having some variety while not sacrificing power and security. Now, onto the formula.
The Aegislash Counters: Grass Type/Flying/Ground Type (Aka the Ice Weak).
When building stall with no specific pokemon in mind, I'll always start from this type. This is by far the most important type for a cornerstone in stall this generation. Right now, the pool for this first slot is an Aegi counter. Choosing Spdef Gliscor, Mandibuzz, AV Tornadus, Chesnaught, Amoongus, Venusaur-mega, or hippowdon is basically the first choice of my team.
Checks: Occasionally I'll consider others, Slowking w/AV or something like Heatran but they have other places I could use them if I really wanted and heatran isn't as good a good a counter as the others. Scizor-mega gains mention here because it can threaten as a check and setup sweeper. However, if you plan to go this path, choose a ground type once you get to the ZardX counter in order to check Aegi once more. The main advantage to Scizor is his ability to take care of Gardevoir-mega, which only has two counters in Aegislash and Scizor, but there are multiple checks on this list such as Chansey and Aggron-mega.
Why is this Aegi counter first first? The main issue is they set a precedence for what weaknesses you'll have: Common with Ice, mainly. It allows me to have a good type to cover when adding my next role, and the two I counter next only have counters that resist ice. This is also a strong gauge for the differing weaknesses you'll have while moving on, as the others gain more consistent weaknesses. The type of weakness you'll have coming out of here swings dramatically: electric swings from Immune (Ground) to Resist (Grass) to Weakness (Fly). Water swings from Weak (Ground) to Neutral (Fly) to Resists (Grass). Grass swings from Weak (Ground) to the other two resisting.
This is especially crucial when looking at mons like Rotom-Wash, Raikou and any electric not named Thundurus. This is also important because Grass types are keldeo counters (outside of Chesnaught) while flying types will also have to squeeze a second one in for one of: Pinsir, Landorus. AV Torn, Mandibuzz and Gliscor can basically 2 in 1 Aegi AND Lando for the most part (assume some spdef on mandi if so) but flying means you'll probably take a second electric weakness elsewhere. This is why, for the most part, I'd consider gliscor the mon of choice for ground or flying. The only issue with Gliscor is you really don't gain rock OR defog support, which is hard when dealing with your flying spots as they generally do take care of that.
Note that this spot is literally the cornerstone. The two grass/poison types are especially important for taking Azumarill. Chesnaught takes Bisharp, and Gliscor is a decent Mawile check. Bisharp and Azumarill is not written in as a major counter, generally just a footnote to remember you need to pick a counter up somewhere, so picking it off here is not a bad idea. All of these do some work vs variants of Mega Gyarados.
The Flying Types will be called upon later as a possible counter/check to Landorus. You do want a counter and a check so it isn't a bad idea to pick one up here. The Spdef Gliscor can't counter Heracross mega but will sub as a great stall breaker, making life easier.
Hippowdon is nice as a ZardX/Mawile check and a great "Whatever" wall. It lacks the bulk to counter major hitters, but it takes such a wide variety of threats that the mixed bulk losing out on a few top tier stall breakers is overlooked in lieu of it having the bulk to take more threats proficiently.
The Talonflame/MegaScizor Counter: Waters/Fires (The Ice Resist)
The second role has to send you to counter something that would also take on an ice resist. Generally, the Talonflame/Scizor counter. Heatran, Vaporeon, Gyarados, Rotom-wash/Heat, Physically Defensive Blastoise, Alomomola, Arcanine are all great choices. Quagsire will work as a band check and SD counter, but most mons here should aim to counter both talonflame sets. Slowbro can work as a Talonflame counter and Scizor check. It is a great mon that can survive U-turns and Knock off until scizor goes +2. If you choose Skarmory later on, he becomes an excellent choice. I generally avoid Vaporeon unless you want a full cleric here and can't afford one later. The only reason to bypass Alomomola like this is if you need a better burn spammer or really need heal bell.
Note that the second role of these mons is to take on Mawile as a check, so generally a burn move is required. Bisharp may also be required to be checked here, as water/fires are resists to his steel stab. Because this is where most of the burn support comes from, this is also where you'd attempt to his a threat that slips through like Medicham or Heracross Mega. Slowbro is a good idea if you can't squeeze an extra counter to medicham, and the fairy clerics and flying type mons (seen as aegi, pinsir and lando counters) can provide a good check to Heracross.
There are a few oddities about this choice. Heatran/Alomomola/Blastoise all might like Spdef spreads. If you choose a spdef blastoise, he's going to move to check both mons here and isn't used as this spot (but can supplement). Using him in Spdef, you can void this spot altogether and add in a mon like Skarmory that will help Scizor/TF checking issue without adding to an ice weakness. Note that Spdef Blastoise might lose vs banded brave bird, so a fallback is needed. Everything else not mentioned as a spdef option will claim a physically defensive spread, have a burn move for stab and devote one move to recovery.
The differences between fire and water are worth noting. Fire is generally another SR weakness outside of heatran, meaning that if you chose mandi in the first set, it may be worth investing in a defog skarmory later on over defog mandi because of the pressure to alleviate hazards being increased. Fire is also responsible for outside tasks such as Aegislash checking and may end up responsible for checking a Mega Gardevoir. Fairies in general would be patched here, although expect Magic Guard Clefable to need a more defined counter. Water types offer far more defensive stability and will be responsible for ZardX checking, but can be an added liability if Mandbuzz was taken first for the Electric weakness that grows. Even if a grass type was chosen, HP Flying Thundurus is a threat.... At this point, thundurus is an incredible threat to stall due to taking on anything in the first two (bar fire mons here) with one of the moveset variations (HP flying or Ice).
Also note that if you plan on using CharizardX, it cannot fill as a Talonflame counter. Note that you'd fit ZardX in the next category and thus should avoid a fire here.
The Thundurus Counter: Strong Cleric Role (or Normal/Fairy/Electric/Dragon type)
This is one of the toughest decisions for stall and it has to be made early. The reason is you'll have to layer a few more checks do to his shaky set tendency. If he runs HP Ice and you chose an Amoongus, you already have a very solid counter as it will fail to break through until Thundyi starts boosting. If Hp Flying and you have Gliscor, the same goes. This exists for many of the first mon choices and Rotom-H out of the second. The generally accepted full counters for this part are listed in order of effectiveness. Charizard-X, Chansey, Raikou, Unaware Clefable, Porygon2, Sylveon, Latias, Rotom-Heat. Gardevoir-Mega CAN work here, however I do find her underwhelming and would rather devote my mega elsewhere. To each his own, though, it would fit somewhere in between Raikou and P2. Note that Gliscor, MegaVen, Amoongus and Hippowdon from the first section all are good checks depending on sets.
Out of these, ZardX will counter just about every set. Chansey loses to Knock Off + Super Power but after Knock off, it's easy to see coming. Raikou is probably better than Chansey here, but chansey has better outside utility. Clef doesn't have as great Spdef, but is neutral to all moves and doesn't mind Nasty Plot. P2 will lose to what Chansey loses to, but kills Thundy faster, just lacking the utility.
If you choose a cleric here, you're basically set. There is one other spot to choose a cleric, but if you want a fairy cleric you cannot sub it in there. If choosing a fire here, you'd be best off going back and subbing in a water at the last spot. Electrics like Raikou and Rotom-H both take residual damage so just remember that they add more to the need for spin/defog support case. There is one area coming up where a defogger can be added, (2 technically but the other is a cleric spot).
As this is one of your monster special walls, they may be first call to take Mega Gardevoir. Between this and the Landorus-I counter, you should at least be able to do some damage. However, remember that there are only two full counters to Gardevoir-mega, and these are Aegislash and Scizor-mega. If you wish to use them, Aegislash is a decent Thundurus counter.
The Landorus-I/ZardY/Keldeo counter... (Levitating Psychic, SpDef Monsters, Flying Type)
While kind of a fallacy to imply there is one, we have to squeeze to try. The only Spdef Monster is Chansey, so if you chose chansey last round, choosing a check is fine here. Due to the nature of already having flying types in the first and major spdef counters in the second, this role can already technically have all the pokemon to fill it up, giving you the ability to aim at the 7th spot. There are a few philosophies to Landorus-i: It CAN be countered with a few mons, or you're better off checking it with one. Assuming you have not taken one of Latias, Mandibuzz, AV Torn Gliscor, or Chansey, you are best off taking the second philosophy. However, I still suggest Chansey here if you don't have a cleric chosen yet (Vaporeon/Alomomola/Sylveon/Clefable/GardMega being the aforementioned).
The checking Philosophy runs that out speeding Landorus is necessary. That, or you can threaten it out with a move that will OHKO at any point (generally talking calm mind) and survive one hit. In this category, I generally consider Mega Aerodactyl (ice fang), Latias, Specs Keldeo as the main mons. (Keldeo does have a few conditions: you have a semi-decent check to zard outside of this, or HP Rock Keldeo which is guaranteed to OHKO.) LO Azelf is an option, as well. Of course, there are tons of options as all you're looking for is a good boltbeam user that can outspeed base 101s.
Spdef Blastoise gains mention here because he can switch in like a counter with 48 SpA and threaten an OHKO. However, he is in need of cleric support to do so. If the cleric support to him is strong, he works like more of the counters. Bronzong is also worthy of a mention due to his upcoming role as a possible cover for Pinsir-mega. He's more used if you're squeezed for space and need a stealth rock setter but will not handle ZardY. This is okay if you took Chansey or Raikou last round, or if you just want to take an auxiliary mon that doubles as a ZardY check/counter later on.
The countering Philosophy is far harder... Chansey, Mandibuzz, AV Tornadus-T, Cresselia, CBBNite, Spdef Gyarados are the only ones I'd consider Landorus "Counters". The nice thing is, all of them (exception:Chansey [re] Keldeo) also take care of keldeo and ZardY while watching Landorus. The flying types are by far the best here, as Knock Off is prevalent for Chansey and tags Latias, Cresselia and can hurt Tornadus as well. Note that AV Torn and Mandi cannot counter ZardY. They are more considered for their work earlier as an Aegi counter/check. Picking up a dragon here isn't a bad idea, as dragons are very solid vs ZardY for the coverage against Grass/Fire. Even a Spdef Fire type like Victini could fill in if needed, and if ZardX was chosen in the last section, he'll do fine to supplement.
Note here: If you didn't pick up a mon here due to having 2 of Latias/Chansey/mandi/Gliscor/Gyarados (Which would be a mixed spread now), this is fine. A lot of stall will try to get away with just one (generally chansey) However, I strongly urge you to run two. There is an opportunity to grab Mega Aero once more, which could save a spot as well.
The Pinsir-Mega counter: (Levitating/FlyingElectric/Steel/Rock Types or Monster Physical Wall)
Pinsir is still an absolute monster. You CAN check him down, but if you chose to check Landorus, unless the two overlap you don't want to check Pinsir (which they may: Ice is a common weakness to both, and boltbeam/rock coverage is recommended to get ZardY as well). Let's start this off by saying quite simply: Rocks are NOT a counter to Pinsir-mega. Yeah, in worst case scenario you take on a pinsir weakness and say "Maybe I can use the rocks to force pressure onto pinsir/CHECK him". Not counter. I'd still recommend lots of scald/burn moves around if for some reason you didn't heed my advice and take a full counter. I won't talk about checks beyond Landorus-T, which has some defensive utility as a check to Mega Mawile, Scizor, Terrakion and most of the physical attackers.
The mons that fit the the above description and are worth looking into are Bronzong, Skarmory, Solrock, Zapdos, Mega Aerodactyl, Aggron-Mega, Rhyperior, and Rotom-Heat/Rotom-Wash.
Note that the best counter here is Skarmory. Mega Aerodactyl is unique to this list as the only one that outspeeds Pinsir-mega, so it countering still means it only takes one hit. Rotom-Wash and Heat came up earlier, although due to the prevalence or bird spam if you decide to skip this section because you have them, make sure you have a check somewhere. If you picked up Latias, CBBNite, Raikou, or a Lando-i check, make sure they have electric/ice/rock coverage or priority in Dnite's case. I don't recommend skipping this section as this is one of three main physical wall sections (TF counter and the next one being the other two). Note that I didn't mention Zapdos in Landorus-I because I feel devoting all out to Pinsir-mega is you're best option so the spread should be undeniably physical.
Bronzong's use is to cover both this one and landorus as a sort of counter (with cleric support) and rock setter. He is unique as the only mon that can counter both Lando and Pinsir Mega at the same time (needs a mixed set), given full HP. He has utility but not much attack. Solrock will set rocks, has reliable recovery and takes both Talonflame AND Pinsir, but cannot take Scizor so it wasn't mentioned earlier. Aggron-Mega is a great wall but will need some good cleric support. He generally relies on counter to take down Pinsir-mega, though head smash can be used... with unreliable accuracy. Rhyperior is nice because he also is a hard counter to ZardX, but he presents a great deal of weaknesses.
This slot is also noted to be one of the main places to pick up a Heracross-mega counter. If you didn't pick a fairy cleric, Gliscor/AV torn as the aegi counter, or Arcanine as the TF counter (outspeed + wisp), it is highly suggested you counter Heracross-mega here. This isn't terribly challenging as every mon here has either flying type or really nice bulk bar bronzong and Solrock.
Because this slot is also such a huge physical wall, this also falls as one of the two spots non-bd Azumarill is countered. BD azum can be countered earlier through Latias w/Tbolt (as the Thundurus/Landorus/ZardY check/counter set), Unaware Clefable and Quagsire, which has roles in the waters for ice resist and below as a ZardX counter. If you don't have a counter after finishing your pick here, you either need to take quagsire next or go back and grab amoongus or venusaur-mega in the first slot.
The ZardX Check, Bisharp support (Bulky Grounds, Bulky Waters)
This one is loose as all hell and may draw from earlier mons. If you chose Aerodactyl-mega, Latias, Heatran, Vap/Alomomola, you have a decent but shaky check. Aggron Mega is incredibly shaky but takes a +1 Flare Blitz and counters back with almost nothing left. The mons here are generally not fantastic counters to ZardX, so this is also another one I suggest outlying two to. For adding, I suggest Rhyperior, Physically Defensive Gliscor and Hippowdon (meaning they can't counter aegi), Lati (I prefer scarf in case opponent DDs), Landorus-t, Quagsire, Gyadaos(-mega), Thick Fat Azumarill or even Swampert. Most of these may have to play out as a check if you run into an SD Outrage Zard. Azumarill then becomes the only counter, but the outside utility is questionable. Due to the ground types here, it is easy to pick up a stealth rocker if you don't have one yet. Note that Rhyperior is by far the best counter when viewing his utility, only beaten by wisp zard (which is much easier to manage) and SD Outrage, which it can still beat if it checks. These mons should also support your bisharp countering if you haven't covered it earlier. Mega Gyarados, Quagsire, Hippowdon, full HP Landot, Gliscor, and Swampert can all check/counter Bisharp to varying extents.
Due to the stress to also take Bisharp, I didn't mention Slowbro. However, if you need a check (Twave variant is a decent kinda counter too) and have Bisharp countered, Foul Play/Twave Slowbro is a pretty good check to a boosting ZardX. The advantage is taking care of a bulky water right now and having a mega medicham counter as well.
The 7-10 (The Aegi section)
A lot of the reason these 7+ sets are 7+ and not main 6 is because they are far more restricting. Mons like Heracross mega are covered more naturally with this formula than theses (Gard/Medi/Kyub/Maw/Clef). If you have one of these already covered, skip it and move to the next. One check/counter should be enough for each one of these. For the most part, I'll mention all counters i can think of, not just all viable ones.
Remember that Aegi will counter like 90% of all the sets you can find in these next sections. It's okay to choose him but he does occasionally open up a bad weakness to ground, fire or dark. If you have that utility, he does cover off more than any other one down here. However, there are still other very good options.
The Medicham-Mega Counter, Non BD Azumarill Check: (Bulky Psychics/Ghosts)
So you'll most likely get here and note a few things. But for Slowbro in the water/fire section, Cresselia in Lando section, Aegislash in the thundurus section, Mega Medicham can run near untouched through the team. You have to rely on scald burns and maybe even a couple of speedy mons (AV torn for example) to take care of it. If you want to skip this one, make sure you have protect on some of your movesets to lure out HJK and something that can check it. Well, it's the next mon I suggest countering, although 7-9 are really your choice in order.
Mew, Slowbro, Aegislash, Cresseila, Sableye, and Spiritomb are the short list of counters. Slowbro is nice because it can do multiple sets well, including Twave, Assault Vest and even a screen set. His coverage will also patch up some mons via offense and he allows burn spamming with scald. Mew is incredible for stall breaking, running wisp on this set. If you somehow failed to have hazard clearing, mew can patch that. It can also patch rock setting. Cresselia can counter Keldeo, ZardY, Lando and Medicham is an afterthought as it runs Spdef. Here, if you have good covers to your other mons, a CM sweeper is not out of the question. The ability to burn pass through Psycho shift, which with rest/sleep talk also can sleep pass is a rather unique set as well.
Sableye is both a counter lead and a suicide sweeper stop, taking multiple sweepers down by priority wisp. It has decent bulk, can check aegi (and beat non-LO), and has a mega in the future. Spiritomb is odd but offers infiltrator willowisp and has very good bulk compared to sableye. His lack of recovery is a bit damning, but he doesn't do bad with a rest set. I don't suggest either of these two do to Azumarill, but if you already have Azumarill covered, you're free to choose this one.
If you're just looking to add a check, go to the Pinsir-mega line and add a true flying type like Skarmory or into the Landorus line and pick up TornT with AV.
The Mega Gardevoir/Clefable Counter: Bulky Steels.
Aegislash and Scizor-mega are basically the only two true Mega Gardevoir counters. To be honest, you really should be using Aegislash here. If you want to just use the section to check if you're fine against gard without full countering it, Heatran W/flast cannon can check it down well. If it isn't CM, Seismic Toss Chansey will cover it fine without any help. Checking MGard with Ferrothorn is not a bad option, either. Ferro will provide a hazard lead and Gyro ball will KO any set not wisp (2hkos wisp so w/e).
If looking just for Clefable, you gain options in poison types such as clear smog amoongus and sludge bomb venu, which will stop the setup. Taunt is your friend vs Clefable, as even Spdef Gliscor can counter MG CM clefable if it taunts it before clef gets to +2. Clef can be more difficult because it runs flame thrower but Heatran w/roar, taunt or flash cannon [if roar, make sure you continuously get chip damage when it comes in], Gliscor with taunt and a few other mons can take care of it before it sets up. Poisons here are a good option, steels not quite as well.
The Mega Mawile Check: Bulky Fire/Poison/Steel
"A mawile walked into the bar and fell over because the counter was bad". It's true... Mawile is one of those mons you have to either have one of a select few counters, which are somewhat suboptimal, or you have to have multiple checks. The two hard counters are Wisp Victini and Arcanine. The softer counters are Venusaur, Amoongus, heatran, Aegislash, Gliscor, Skarmory and Rotom-h/Landot (both true checks). Edit: Added CharizardY here. It can counter (wisp set+roost) but must be very careful of rocks. There were quite a few mawile checks and counters built into the original process, in fact everything mentioned here was listed somewhere up there.
Kyurem-Black: Counters: Steels W/O ground weakness or Fairies
I highly suggest having a Kyub counter built in as a cleric. It generally makes things easier, and again all of the Kyub counters were mentioned above. Kyub is countered by Scizor-mega and Ferrothorn, Physically defensive sylveon (meaning it doesn't fair as well vs Thundy where it was originally mentioned) soft countered by Clefable. Other mons such as Chansey have enough bulk to live but cannot do any damage if it's a 101 sub kyub. I believe Aggron-Mega can check Kyurem and is one of the few mons to take a fully physical kyub easily.
Just want to show a few teams now that took this philosophy.
Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Counter
- Taunt
- Iron Head
- Rest
So I started this team around a Slowbro+Chesnaught core, covering aegi and taking care of my ice weakness. I added in Sylveon and Latias to cover Thundurus, as I had no stop for him whatsoever. I skipped out on a lando counter, already having latias and went to my Pinsir-mega counter. Not wanting to add more holes to electrics, I didn't add Skarmory and took my mega in Aggron, as steel had good synergy with my cleric. Realizing I needed a ZardX check, but also a lando check, I added Swampert. I had three resists to grass, but two weaknesses and Venusaur mega could take half my team with ease so I changed out Slowbro for Gyarados to take Talonflame, Scizor and ZardX with Swampert's assistance.
Started a Chesnaught+Blastoise core for the standard Aegi+ice resist. Chansey was my best support option for the two lacking recovery and absorbed Landorus AND thundurus well. Skarmory became my pinsir-mega check and my physical wall. I added Latias as a secondary Landorus check and my best option for ZardX sets, giving me space to add Aegi to polish off issues with Mega Mawile and the lot. Note while I do have a lot of physical fire issues, the main user is checked off well by lati and talonflame does have to think about what it spams.
Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Hidden Power [Fire]
I added Amoongus not because of Aegi but because of the ability to take BD azumarill, who I figured to take over quickly. Covering the ice weakness with blastoise mega (with support to TF/Sciz from Glisc/Skarm respectively) and the Thundy/Lando weakness with Chansey, I moved to Skarm for pinsir so I could use Spdef blastoise. Wanting a good check to zardX and lando at the same time, I ran Spdef Gliscor in conjunction with Blastoise to ease over a ZardX issue. Getting to the end of my list, I realized I didn't care much for Gard because S-toss chansey and Gliscor could both do some damage... I had enough attackers to possibly eek out some wins. However, Medicham was a monster. I considered solidifying a zardX issue with Slowbro, but I would've added too many grass weaknesses and no way to damage Venu w/leech seed. I defaulted to Mew, who had the ability to wisp MMega, giving it one less switchin (to now having one mon it can come in against and set up on, being chansey). The stall breaking power+wisp support was something I'd lose if blastoise got worn down and I didn't want to let physical threats run free. Note that I am a bit weak to M-Hera, I have thought about patching that up by Skarm running Brave bird+WW over taunt+counter but haven't made any decisions yet
So, I hope you find this helpful. If aegi gets banned, I'll adjust it.
Edit: Effective use of hide tags. Also Sugarhigh, any preschooler can read 5k words easy.
This is really cool and detailed. My only comment is you should include bulky fire types since Victini and even Entei can serve as a check to these threats. I use a very similar formula and it works very well. 10/10 Should be placed in the OP or something imo.
AJ the stall guru, great guide it has helped me out a lot in building a few stall teams. I'm just wondering will you update this formula once aegis is banned and if not what pokemon should we aim to counter with our first slot? I'm leaning towards a Lando counter as he is the most common stall breaker in my opinion. I could be wrong tho u r the master AJ. Thanks again ajwf for making this guide. I agree it should be in the OP!
Venusaur + Quagsire + Skarmory + Chansey + Heatran + Aegislash: is defeated by Landorus-I
Venusaur + Quagsire + Skarmory + Chansey + Heatran + Latias: is destroyed by Mega Gardevoir
Venusaur + Quagsire + Mandibuzz + Chansey + Heatran + Aegislash: Is destroyed by Mega Pinsir
Venusaur + Quagsire + Zapdos (spdef) + Chansey + Heatran + Aegislash: This variant is a little more reliable imo, but it struggles since Zapdos has a hard time surviving throughout a match. Mega Medicham (with Fire Punch of course) still roasts it, just like the others. To be honest, Zard-X stall has the same problem, Zard-X stall without Ferrothorn or Aegislash loses to Mega Gardevoir, and the ones with them normally lose to Landorus-I and/or Mega Medicham. I know stall is matchup-reliant this gen, but everyone's using the same variants of stall, so it's really annoying already.
Try exploring different, less matchup-based structured instead of standard venutran and zard-x stall like:
Mega Aggron + Mandibuzz + Chansey + Quagsire + Victini + Phys def Amoonguss: Beats almost everything, has a difficult time against Landorus-I since Mandibuzz isn't the best counter. Quagsire takes care of mixed Thundy and Nasty Plot Thundy decently. Also has problems against Keldeo in the long run, but Amoonguss can still beat it. Alternatively, you can eliminate the Keldeo problem entirely by replacing Amoonguss with AV Tangrowth. However, this change would leave you a little bit more vulnerable to Terrakion.
Victini + Alomomola + Spdef Gliscor + Chansey + Skarmory + Mega Venusaur: Has a difficult time against Thundurus and Terrakion, very good against almost everything else.
Stop using the same stall teams and start getting creative! A lot of Pokemon are viable in stall, don't be afraid to try unexplored Pokemon.
Rotom-H seems pretty good on stall, it checks Thundurus and M-Mawile and counters M-Pinsir, Talonflame and Scizor
I've been using a core of Hippo, Amoonguss and Rotom-H. The core handles M-Pinsir, Talonflame, Scizor, Aegislash, Keldeo, Zard X, Bisharp, Clefable, M-Mawile and Thundy.
It handles everything on the 1-6 slots bar Lando and Zard Y
Thoughts?
Mega Aggron + Mandibuzz + Chansey + Quagsire + Victini + Phys def Amoonguss: Beats almost everything, has a difficult time against Landorus-I since Mandibuzz isn't the best counter. Quagsire takes care of mixed Thundy and Nasty Plot Thundy decently. Also has problems against Keldeo in the long run, but Amoonguss can still beat it. Alternatively, you can eliminate the Keldeo problem entirely by replacing Amoonguss with AV Tangrowth. However, this change would leave you a little bit more vulnerable to Terrakion.
Victini + Alomomola + Spdef Gliscor + Chansey + Skarmory + Mega Venusaur: Has a difficult time against Thundurus and Terrakion, very good against almost everything else.
Stop using the same stall teams and start getting creative! A lot of Pokemon are viable in stall, don't be afraid to try unexplored Pokemon.
I'm really curious about this: what good does Victini do in a stall team? At first glance, it seems like an all-out offensive powerhouse(V-Create, etc), so I got really curious here.
Victini takes two stall breakers, Mega medicham and Mega Mawile lacking knock off (which most do). It basically spreads burns everywhere before going to wallbreak, filling a roughly comparable role to stallbreaker mew.
Victini takes two stall breakers, Mega medicham and Mega Mawile lacking knock off (which most do). It basically spreads burns everywhere before going to wallbreak, filling a roughly comparable role to stallbreaker mew.
Victini also handles non shadow ball mega garde and non eq mega zard y fairly well.
It's combination of stall breaking and ability to take 4 different megas most of the time is a real boon to stall teams. The only issue with victini is his lack of recovery. His typing is also a double edged sword he has nice resistances to fire, fairy, fighting, grass, and psychic but also has weaknesses to common attack types such as ground, rock, dark, ghost, and water.
