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Survey Discussing Future Tiering Policy
- Thread starter Chou Toshio
- Start date
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Bear in mind, that suspect tests are for potentially broken things, and things don't have to 6-0 teams easy to be suspect-worthy. Deo-D is a prime suspect for a lot of people because of its support potential alone, and people generally don't resort to super-niche things to negate its work. Aegislash is incredibly centralising though, so I could see, where these people are coming from. (I haven't much of a definitive opinion on Aegislash either way)
these "worst offenders" don't have counters, just sayin'
Soloing teams with no support and only having a few garbage counters is not the benchmark for something that's unhealthy for the meta. It's actually something I'm sort of worried about: after the ridiculousness that was Mega Milf and Luke, people's expectations for what is too OP for the tier may be inflated.
As for Aegislash, it's definitely the best pokemon in the meta, but I'm not convinced it's unhealthy. I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect test, but not after several other things.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
I'm sorry, if you don't realize that there will always be a highest threat that is semi-broken in any tier you are really not even thinking about each tier in the first place.
there will basically ALWAYS be a semi-broken threat in any tier, since after banning one thing you almost always have something else that got a major check removed. thats healthy - if you eliminate a meta's threats more will arise, even if less powerful, they will be less countered since the main pokes that prevent it from shining will be banned already. every tier will have its broken threats with few checks - that is part of the metagame and people need to realize that.
lol scarfchomp not top usage. by the way, usage doesnt make a poke good/bad in the first place, so idk why thats an argument. jolly charizard X isin't very common anymore from what i'm seeing, in fact most sets are running some HP evs for bulk. also when you have a sweeper that is semi-suicidal (flare blitz), it can be taken care of by much priority and, as mentioned above, rocks.
oh god forbid you lose a member of your team holy shit. if you are in stall or balanced, switch to obvious chansey / special wall you must have to be viable as a team anyways. if you are using offense, there is always somebody who is expendable. and you dont even have to revenge kill it - sorry you want speed to be a stat thats not even important. if speed wasnt relevant mega mawile wouldve been banned a long time ago.
mega mawile + landorus-i destroys every team sure....obviously every ladderer uses it so yeah. its a good core, but in no ways game breaking. sorry you think sub is the only thing mawile does, the SD set is even more potent for my usage. and how about this, use strategy NOT to let it come in freely. thats just USING YOUR FUCKING BRAIN.
Hypercut Your funny. go to stabmons and see offensive metagames. this is not even close to an offensive meta, and atm i think the meta right now is pretty balanced, with most of the upper ladder using stall anyways.
its not just a power creep. its a bulk creep too. why do you think specially defensive mega charizard X is so popular (it really is becoming pretty common)? what about wall mega scizor? and mega venusaur? if you want to play stall you can, but the stall archetype is limited - and thats not going to change unless you make stall broken, in which case we would have a similar problem reversed anyways.
and pokemon is a killfest. obviously. whats the goal? to make the other teams pokemon faint. so it will definitely be a killfest unless you want to lose.
charizards: you can tell by the team most of the time. how do you know what set dragonite is running? wallbreaker or sweeper. how do you know what set charizard is running? wallbreaker or sweeper. i don't see how thats a reason to ban a poke.
maybe you just arent playing right or something - i have NEVER let a mega tyranitar get to +2 on me. it won't happen. also too many common pokemon pack super effective moves against ttar anyways, and while mega ttar is bulky as fuck, it does take some damage from super effective moves. jolly exca still easily 2hkos, for example.
the sub punch mega mawile set is predictable and beatable, and while it hits hard, can still be walled or checked into a forced switch.
i am seriously going to have to get a freaking rifle in this in order not to die hearing all the stubborn idiots in this place. nobody is willing to make a change in their views SO WHY ARGUE IN THE FIRST PLACE FFS.
i will not respond to this thread any more. if you really feel like talking to me pm me.
Nope, it's actually way more comparable to Genesect. Aegislash is most definitely deserving of a suspect at least. It's a Pokemon that alters the metagame like no other. Answer me this: why do Ttar and Mega Pinsir run Earthquake? Why does Lucario run Earthquake? Why does Scizor run Knock Off when it's an inferior option to Superpower? The answer is Aegislash.
It's an incredibly centralizing Pokemon. The entire tier revolves around it. Every team has to be stacked with ways of beating it, and even then it is still capable of destroying teams with support. It's got a multitude of sets and there is no one Pokemon that can counter it (which means it is capable of fucking stall). SubToxic, KS 3 attacks, speedy LO 3 attacks, LO SD 3 attacks. All these are viable threats that can defeat whatever option you have to beat it. It can go physical, special, or mixed. It can be slow and bulky or slightly faster than key threats (Bisharp) and super powerful. Not to mention all the 50/50s it creates with Kings Shield. Please tell me how this is not EXACTLY like Genesect? The only thing Genesect had that Aegislash doesn't is U-turn. It's the most restrictive Pokemon in the tier bar none. It is a monster with both 150/150 defenses and 150/150 offenses. How does this not scream "suspect worthy"?
I probably have a personal experience bias, since I never had problems with it. It is important to note that there will always be Pokemon like Aegislash that everyone needs to prepare for. I agree it needs a test but I see people hyping its battle prowess a little too much.
You don't have to have problems with something to acknowledge that its broken. Aegislash is centralizing, yes, and its also one of the best Pokemon in the tier, but I don't think it's unhealthy for the meta at the moment. There are more deserving threats that need to be suspect tested right now, specifically deo-d and deo-s.
Scizor running Knock Off when Superpower is an option isn't just primarily for Aegislash, its a good option in general. Earthquake on Mega Pinsir offers good coverage other than just killing Aegislash, it also hits Tyranitar rather strongly, Excadrill, ZardX, Heatran etc.
Scizor running Knock Off when Superpower is an option isn't just primarily for Aegislash, its a good option in general. Earthquake on Mega Pinsir offers good coverage other than just killing Aegislash, it also hits Tyranitar rather strongly, Excadrill, ZardX, Heatran etc.
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Just sayin, when there were intelligent, experienced players making cases against Lucarionite being banned, I think it's a little ridiculous to start suggesting stuff like Heracross is broken. Yes the meta game needs to be balanced quicker, but we are getting WAY ahead of ourselves. I think the best course of action is to do what we always do; identify what is currently the most potentially unhealthy thing in the meta right now, discuss it, suspect test it, ban it, observe how things change, and repeat. Now, we need to go faster, preferably have a suspect test in place by the end of the month (maybe wishful thinking, but a goal like that is necessary), but the process that we've been using isn't in need of massive changes.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Vryheid
fudge jelly
I'm usually very reluctant to say "ban pls" without a long and informative suspect test, but come on guys, we can prove some of this shit is broken with math-o-fuckin-matics. How is it okay that several threats in the tier have ZERO viable counters? How far off the deep end has the meta gone when sacking Thundurus to get off a priority T-wave is considered a reliable "check" to Mega Charizard X? We're in a situation right now where top ladder players are pretty much polarized between hyperoffense and stall, because all the ridiculously powerful sweepers available blow up everything in-between. We should suspect stupid shit like Landorus and Mega Mawile as soon as possible. This would lead to bulky sweepers and balanced teams being more viable, which in turn would make stall much more manageable as well.
Basically, suspecting some of these Pokemon and removing them would improve balance and variety across the board, which would MASSIVELY improve the overly matchup dependent, agonizingly repetitive state OU has currently become.
Oh, since I have a lot of time and I like damage calcs, here's why two of my least favorite Pokemon in the tier are extremely problematic:
Basically, suspecting some of these Pokemon and removing them would improve balance and variety across the board, which would MASSIVELY improve the overly matchup dependent, agonizingly repetitive state OU has currently become.
Oh, since I have a lot of time and I like damage calcs, here's why two of my least favorite Pokemon in the tier are extremely problematic:
Every single check gets OHKOd by a coverage move from one of only two sets that Landorus could be running, that being the standard physical and special sweeper sets. Knock Off makes it even worse this gen, because Chansey/Blissey can no longer wall the specially offensive set and even the bulky Psychics that had a chance against it last gen can get utterly demolished on the switchin:
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 322-382 (106.6 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You can try to stop it with priority, but Landorus has enough bulk that anything short of an Ice Shard will fail to bring it down:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 260-308 (81.2 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 256-303 (80 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Oh, and don't even try to counter it, because Mixed Landorus alone is impossible to wall with any degree of consistency. Even Genesect was easier to wall than this thing. Chansey in particular is considered the best special wall in the tier, and falls to an uninvested Knock Off + Superpower:
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 146-172 (22.7 - 26.7%) -- 29.7% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 538-634 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Some other top walls getting demolished by common coverage moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 192-229 (52.7 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 183-216 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 278-328 (66.1 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 298-351 (70.9 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 356-421 (101.1 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 192-229 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (wow, it can avoid a 2HKO on occasion!)
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 294-347 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (oh wait physical Lando exists)
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This of course comes with the assumption that Sand isn't up (which makes physical Lando far more difficult to deal with) and the opponent has no hazards on their side of the field. Stealth Rocks+Spikes turns quite a few 2HKOs into OHKOs, and if speed is a problem Lando can easily use a Rock Polish to practically guarantee a sweep.
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 322-382 (106.6 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You can try to stop it with priority, but Landorus has enough bulk that anything short of an Ice Shard will fail to bring it down:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 260-308 (81.2 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 256-303 (80 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Oh, and don't even try to counter it, because Mixed Landorus alone is impossible to wall with any degree of consistency. Even Genesect was easier to wall than this thing. Chansey in particular is considered the best special wall in the tier, and falls to an uninvested Knock Off + Superpower:
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 146-172 (22.7 - 26.7%) -- 29.7% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 538-634 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Some other top walls getting demolished by common coverage moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 192-229 (52.7 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 183-216 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 278-328 (66.1 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 298-351 (70.9 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 356-421 (101.1 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 192-229 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (wow, it can avoid a 2HKO on occasion!)
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 294-347 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (oh wait physical Lando exists)
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This of course comes with the assumption that Sand isn't up (which makes physical Lando far more difficult to deal with) and the opponent has no hazards on their side of the field. Stealth Rocks+Spikes turns quite a few 2HKOs into OHKOs, and if speed is a problem Lando can easily use a Rock Polish to practically guarantee a sweep.
Bulky, hits like a truck, and has fantastic typing- all ingredients for one of the most brutally overpowered sweepers in the tier. Preventing it from setting up consistently is extremely difficult with dual screens and Memento being so readily available, so often you will be forced to revenge kill one at +1/+1 no matter what you do. The bulky set in particular is incredibly hard to OHKO with screen support:
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X through Light Screen: 244-288 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Once it gets one turn of setup, everything bar Deoxys S and Choice Scarf users get outsped, and when that happens good luck actually surviving a hit from anything other than a dedicated physical wall:
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 469-553 (145.2 - 171.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 397-468 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 432-510 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (so much for a "counter")
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 360-424 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 313-370 (97.8 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (that's after an Intimidate drop!)
Oh, and those physical walls? Unless you're able to OHKO Charizard, they're going to get wiped out as well-
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 276-325 (65.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 300-354 (70.7 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is a big one)
Compared to the other premier premier Dragon types in OU, it's easy to see why this one is so problematic. Every other major Dragon type has as least three blatantly exploitable weakness which decently constructed teams should be able to make use of to beat them. Let's go down the list:
Latios/Latias: Walled by Chansey/bulky Steel types, vulnerable to Pursuit, knocked out by Sucker Punch
Kyurem-B: Cannot boost speed, lacks a good secondary STAB move, vulnerable to Bullet Punch
Garchomp: Cannot boost speed, lacks priority, has a crippling 4x weakness
Dragonite: Slow initial speed, lacks a good secondary STAB move, crippling 4x weakness
The ONLY weakness from this list which Mega Charizard X faces is a lack of priority, and considering that no opposing priority move in the game can actually OHKO it this usually isn't even a problem. Roost shenanigans can stop even Pokemon like Bisharp from beating it with Sucker Punch.
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X through Light Screen: 244-288 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Once it gets one turn of setup, everything bar Deoxys S and Choice Scarf users get outsped, and when that happens good luck actually surviving a hit from anything other than a dedicated physical wall:
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 469-553 (145.2 - 171.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 397-468 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 432-510 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (so much for a "counter")
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 360-424 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 313-370 (97.8 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (that's after an Intimidate drop!)
Oh, and those physical walls? Unless you're able to OHKO Charizard, they're going to get wiped out as well-
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 276-325 (65.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 300-354 (70.7 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is a big one)
Compared to the other premier premier Dragon types in OU, it's easy to see why this one is so problematic. Every other major Dragon type has as least three blatantly exploitable weakness which decently constructed teams should be able to make use of to beat them. Let's go down the list:
Latios/Latias: Walled by Chansey/bulky Steel types, vulnerable to Pursuit, knocked out by Sucker Punch
Kyurem-B: Cannot boost speed, lacks a good secondary STAB move, vulnerable to Bullet Punch
Garchomp: Cannot boost speed, lacks priority, has a crippling 4x weakness
Dragonite: Slow initial speed, lacks a good secondary STAB move, crippling 4x weakness
The ONLY weakness from this list which Mega Charizard X faces is a lack of priority, and considering that no opposing priority move in the game can actually OHKO it this usually isn't even a problem. Roost shenanigans can stop even Pokemon like Bisharp from beating it with Sucker Punch.
Hi everyone, thanks for participating-- I can't believe in one day we already have already had almost 450 surveys started (please complete them if you started them... we have 370 completed). As such, I'll go ahead and let this stay open until we get 1000 responses, or until responses tail off.
Sorry I haven't read all your posts, and can't respond to all-- I will leave it up to the discretion of Haunter/other OU mods whether to leave this thread open. I left the thread open intentially, but the purpose was not necessarily to start open discussion on tiering; the Council will look at the questionaire responses more than anything posted here.
Also, in regards to a theoretical Charizard Informative clause: There is no problem with Game Mechanics
It's possible for two players playing each other on DS to tell each other any information (even true for wifi thanks to voice communication, or social media since so many of our wifi battles are arranged through the forum anyway). If you are doing a random battle, it's not Smogon OU rules anyway. Point is for in-cartridge play, we'd just be enforcing a rule: "If you use Charizard, you have to tell your opponent which mega stone you're using if any."
This does not at all affect game mechanics.
Sorry I haven't read all your posts, and can't respond to all-- I will leave it up to the discretion of Haunter/other OU mods whether to leave this thread open. I left the thread open intentially, but the purpose was not necessarily to start open discussion on tiering; the Council will look at the questionaire responses more than anything posted here.
Also, in regards to a theoretical Charizard Informative clause: There is no problem with Game Mechanics
It's possible for two players playing each other on DS to tell each other any information (even true for wifi thanks to voice communication, or social media since so many of our wifi battles are arranged through the forum anyway). If you are doing a random battle, it's not Smogon OU rules anyway. Point is for in-cartridge play, we'd just be enforcing a rule: "If you use Charizard, you have to tell your opponent which mega stone you're using if any."
This does not at all affect game mechanics.
Right now, having just reached the ~1650-1750 (basically mid-upper ladder) mark on the ladder, the only things that I've found that need a suspect test are Deo-D and Deo-S. Right now, DeoSharp is the name of the game. Deo D is bulky enough to take even SE hits and continue to hazard stack in your face. Add on a high base speed of 90(?), and this thing is able to paralyze slower set up sweepers, which cripples them for the rest of the game. Additionally, it has Taunt and Magic Coat to prevent opposing leads from stacking alongside it, and with the high speed I previously mentioned, it's usually able to get it off quite easily. It can also run a few attack EVs (28 IIRC) and Superpower to OHKO Bisharp, who is the closest thing to a counter he has. Speaking of counters, Espeon is the only thing that truly counters him, but that's only because of Magic. Bounce. You could say Mega Absol but LOL.
Deo-S is entirely different. Back when he was first suspected, I truly feel that he was overshadowed by all the Mega Luke and Genesect hype, which caused him to be overlooked. Once they were gone, he became noticed. His speed is insane enough to outspeed Scarfchomp without max investment, and has a myriad of sets. Examples include the LO Cleaner and Dual Screens, both of which have a significant impact on the metagame. Fortunately for him, he has a counter in Aegislash (who's an entirely different subject that I'll touch on later). But aside from that, the most reliable check is T-Wave Thundy, who (if I remember correctly) is OHKOed by Ice Beam. Passable Bulk and decent offenses with a blazing speed have definitely made it's impact on the meta.
Tl;dr, Deo D and Deo S are quite centralizing and deserve to have a second look for suspecting.
Deo-S is entirely different. Back when he was first suspected, I truly feel that he was overshadowed by all the Mega Luke and Genesect hype, which caused him to be overlooked. Once they were gone, he became noticed. His speed is insane enough to outspeed Scarfchomp without max investment, and has a myriad of sets. Examples include the LO Cleaner and Dual Screens, both of which have a significant impact on the metagame. Fortunately for him, he has a counter in Aegislash (who's an entirely different subject that I'll touch on later). But aside from that, the most reliable check is T-Wave Thundy, who (if I remember correctly) is OHKOed by Ice Beam. Passable Bulk and decent offenses with a blazing speed have definitely made it's impact on the meta.
Tl;dr, Deo D and Deo S are quite centralizing and deserve to have a second look for suspecting.
Tbh, I really think your opinion/this post is biased. You literally are banning what your stall/balanced team cannot wall/handle.
Come on, if HO becomes good and outclasses stall/balanced we ban the good mons it? That's like saying banning Quag because with it HO can't break stall. For years stall and balanced were the ones winning, generations pass and the metagame changes, if Bisharp, Mega Mawile, Zard X, and/or Landorus-I get banned then Chansey/Skarm core will haunt us again. Not to mention stall teams in general.
NO, first of all, in your calcs, if mega char X is running adamant then things like Jolly Exca can obliterate it w/ an EQ. Second of all, Zard X is really good, but giving it Light Screen support makes it broken? not really, outrage 2HKO-ing quag makes it broken? Hell no almost every stall team has Sylveon or at least 1 steel type.
Second of all, if you are running T-punch then things like Heatran wall you (if over EQ) or things like Sylveon (if over Flare blitz).
Mega Mawile is not broken, it's just a good stallbreaker.
Landorus isn't broken either, it is hard to wall, but you can revenge kill it as easy as fuck. Ex: Greninja Ice Beam = done, really easy.
As for my survey:
I gave aegi a 5 and Deo-D a 6.
Since 10 is IMMEDIATELY needs a ban, Aegi and Deo-D are not that broken, Aegislash isn't even broken, it's a little unhealthy for the meta, but it's not broken.
Also, I disagree with what have been said about aegislash being centralized, in all honesty, any team has at least 1 check for it, heatran, excadrill, bisharp, landorus, garchomp, landorus-t, m-gyara, even gyara, Char Y, Char X, D-nite, etc. which are all common.
Deo-D does what it does so fucking perfectly, especially the Jolly max speed superpower set because it is not only a fast taunter, but it survives 2 non SE attacks, and OHKOes Bisharp and 2HKO-es T-tar. Deo-D is very fucking good. It's literally on 80% of my teams, and every one of them reached 1700 minimum. But it has it's flaws, getting 2-3 hazards to get a 5-6 matchup isn't always good.
Deo-D, when paired with Bisharp, literally defines current HO, but it's not as bad as everyone says, just spin the hazards w/ Exca, oh aegislash? EQ, Air Balloon? Hit on the switch w/ Iron head or something, it's not impossible, hazard don't hinder every team; Deo-D is not broken, Bisharp and Char Y and many other mons like Azu do what they do perfectly like Deo-D, but that doesn't mean oh ban. IMO Deo-D should not be banned.
I think the metagame is healthy right now tbh.
Also for Char X / Char Y not knowing which one it is, tbh, a lot of times, you can predict it, with how he played and how he switch it and his team, like having Charizard + Azumarill doesn't make sense unless it's Char X. It's not that hard.
TL;DR: The metagame is quite balanced and satisfactory, stall isn't too hard to break, HO isn't too dominant, and Bulky offensive / balanced isn't hard to stop. IMO everybody should stop whining and play the game, maybe, Deo-D deserves a ban but that's it
Imo, as of now there are too many things that deserve a suspect, most of them are mega evolutions, but not only that
The metagame has become in my point of view, worse than bw, the introduction of the Mega was at the very beginning something that most of us liked, but a few months are passed, the "hype train" is down, and now, reading Hypercut post i can't help but wonder "are Mega truly a positive thing for the Metagame?"
but perhaps it's a little too soon to discuss this "new" thing
I believe that a case can be made about deoxys-s, thundurus-i, landorus-i, charizard x, mega mawile, and mega gyarados.
Deo-s can have lot of versions, sash, double screen (which we can also find in the new baton pass team) mixed set with huge speed great mixed attacks backed by powerful moves like psycho boost, ice beam, knock off, superpower and so on.
Thundurus-i, very broken pokemon with high speed, great satk, VERY big movepol, two great ability, very diverse.
Landorus-i, perhaps the ultimate wallbreaker, vryheld already showed us how powerful he truly is, not only that, he can also go with rock polish to sweep a team.
Charizard x is... what the fuck, this guy is a monster, vryheld already showed us its offensive power, coupled by the fact that we can't fucking know if he's x or y only gives him an even easier time to set up dragon dance.
Mega Mawile is the mega with arguably the best type atm, while having low speed, she has sucker punch, and also access to intimidate before mega evolving allowing her to set up more easily swords dance or substitute, seriously, there is something wrong when an UNstabbed Fire Fang, with the little base power it has ohkoes Skarmory at +2, the premier Physical Wall in the Tier.
Mega Gyarados, while a bit underrated atm, can use intimidate, and while mega gyara is weak to mach punch gyara can simply delay the mega evolution changing easily the tides of the battle.
I also believe that the Council needs to speed up in order to make the Metagame more balanced, before discussions like "ORAS remakes are coming, it's useless to talk about the current state of XY" like it happened in BW1 when BW2 was coming out
Thanks Vryheid to showed us the damage.
The metagame has become in my point of view, worse than bw, the introduction of the Mega was at the very beginning something that most of us liked, but a few months are passed, the "hype train" is down, and now, reading Hypercut post i can't help but wonder "are Mega truly a positive thing for the Metagame?"
but perhaps it's a little too soon to discuss this "new" thing
I believe that a case can be made about deoxys-s, thundurus-i, landorus-i, charizard x, mega mawile, and mega gyarados.
Deo-s can have lot of versions, sash, double screen (which we can also find in the new baton pass team) mixed set with huge speed great mixed attacks backed by powerful moves like psycho boost, ice beam, knock off, superpower and so on.
Thundurus-i, very broken pokemon with high speed, great satk, VERY big movepol, two great ability, very diverse.
Landorus-i, perhaps the ultimate wallbreaker, vryheld already showed us how powerful he truly is, not only that, he can also go with rock polish to sweep a team.
Charizard x is... what the fuck, this guy is a monster, vryheld already showed us its offensive power, coupled by the fact that we can't fucking know if he's x or y only gives him an even easier time to set up dragon dance.
Mega Mawile is the mega with arguably the best type atm, while having low speed, she has sucker punch, and also access to intimidate before mega evolving allowing her to set up more easily swords dance or substitute, seriously, there is something wrong when an UNstabbed Fire Fang, with the little base power it has ohkoes Skarmory at +2, the premier Physical Wall in the Tier.
Mega Gyarados, while a bit underrated atm, can use intimidate, and while mega gyara is weak to mach punch gyara can simply delay the mega evolution changing easily the tides of the battle.
I also believe that the Council needs to speed up in order to make the Metagame more balanced, before discussions like "ORAS remakes are coming, it's useless to talk about the current state of XY" like it happened in BW1 when BW2 was coming out
Thanks Vryheid to showed us the damage.
I don't know this seems really weird, a clause where you have to tell your opponent what Charizard it is? But you could lie, I don't know, Im not supporting this but I'm not fully against this either.
I've actually noticed a downward trend of Deosharp with the sudden rise of Rain and Sand on the ladder. Both playstyles wreck Deosharp and because of how common it became people know the ins and outs of the strategy and are generally well prepared for it.
Jaiho
bandy legged troll
No, if anything, people have been underhyping its battle prowess. Pre-bank, Aegislash was believed to be 100% broken, but then people began (over)preparing for it, and it seemed to fall off the potential suspect list. Shit like Bisharp and Mandibuzz first rose to prominence because they could take Aegislash 1v1. And post bank M-Luke, Deo-S, and Gene stole its spotlight. So the fact that Aegislash is dumb on so many levels has been ignored. For one, as Halcyon. mentioned, Aegi has so many sets that no single 'mon can counter it. Second of all, it is literally a problem for every single team archetype. Stall is fucked by SubToxic, and offense can't switch in to the Crumbler. Lastly, the amount of effort a team has to go through to handle Aegi is unparalleled. Knock Off on stuff like Azu, Deo-S, Torn-T, and M-Scizor, EQ Latios, SpDef Hippo, CBBNite's rise to fame, and others. 'Mons that should be tearing through the tier like M-Medicham are thrust into the wayside, and M-Garde, Terrakion, and Breloom had such rocky starts this gen specifically because they can't beat Aegislash. This is such a centralized metagame because it focuses on Aegislash, what beats it, and what beats those. That is why Aegislash deserves to be banned.
Shoutout to ShootingStarmie for telling us all that Aegi was borked was months ago, and we all laughed at you n_n
EDIT: Arikado and Professional2341 , this is directed you guys too
You're wrong, suspect tests are flawed. When youre opening tiering votes for ANYONE with the only requirement being trivial ladder ranks youre going to have people that either know nothing of the metagame (therefore voting without any base) or people that are voting for their own benefit (read the idiot that wanted landorus banned so that mamoswine usage would drop). We dont need to make this system ''democratic'', theres a reason why the council exists and why theyre in that position, they should be able to identify broken elements and remove them from the tier and them test them later when they see fit (such as the metagame changed to the point where a previous broken mon is now manageable). We need to stop trying to take things so subjectively, i completely agree with Vryheid, this is just hurting the tiering process by making things slow and allowing broken things to keep haunting the tier for a long ass time, read deoxys-s, the very thing you guys are bitching about now, passed his first suspect test (which i voted to ban btw), another proof of how flawed suspect tests are.
Uh, you do realize that the moment we implement something like this we are flat out saying ''charizard is broken but i dont want to ban it'' and considering that we didnt made any exception for blaziken, deoxys, genesect, kangaskhanite, lucarionite and gengarite i dont see what makes zard so special that we need to implement a clause just for the sake of keeping it in the tier.
What? By extension, are you saying it's possible in the future to make it a clause to tell your opponent your entire team? What about bluffs and versatality? It's part of the game--I'd rather ban Zard then incoporate this complex ban because a.) doesn't smogon discourage complex bans despite how many we are doing what the fuck and b.) I don't like what this would mean for future suspect tests if we allowed this to happen for Charizard.
Genesect would still be OU (here) if we added this clause (main broken point is versatality to run any set) so we would have to retier everything to make the suspecting balanced... way too much work, complexity, and it's just unhealthy to be doing this.
Why even bring it up? RotomPoison's point still stands that sans human interaction it is not a mechanic in the game -- if someone tells you a set it should be OPTIONAL like it is in the game.
Chou Toshio
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Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding this, but if there wasn't any argument in MegaLuke's favor, it would've been quickbanned instead of suspected. Selfish trolls will argue every ban (see specifically the Khangaskhanite discussion), but I was just making a point that if something as obviously broken as Mega Lucario wasn't completely one-sided, then making claims about certain pokemon that, in this current meta, are clearly not broken deserving a quickban is utterly ridiculous.
I also completely disagree about the democracy part. If I wanted my metagame dictated to me by powers beyond my control, I would've stuck with Nintendo. Smogon's so great because it's the players making decisions on what they want from their competition. Sure the council has significant influence, but they do a very good job of listening to the community and addressing problems as the community (or at least the relevant members of the community) brings up.
Speeding up the process needs to be priority #1, but the switch to 1760 stats and the Victory Road installment (lol) did enough to alienate casual gamers. Removing or even limiting their right to vote would be a mistake.
My opinion of the Pokemon community outside of smogon isn't a secret (just see Kaxrida's signature), but I'll echo what some of my friends say about Smogon, "Who do you think you are, setting rules and banning pokemon?" The answer that always shut them up was "We are the community, and as the people who actually play it, we make decisions based on what we want from the game, who's Nintendo to say we can't use Mew?"
Let's not get carried away now.
Chou Toshio
Ok, besides what Shurtugal said:
Did you really just tell me that there's no difference between not only assuming people actually use, say Twitter, to set up a battle, and also assuming they would actually tell you, but forcing them to tell you? What the hell is that? Oh, my 3ds allows me to talk to my opponent, let me tell them what Charizard I'm using!
Also why bother editing my post? Couldn't you just reply to it so I had a chance to see and reply to you myself instead of forcing someone to quote it for me to see it.
I am not forced to tell my opponent what Charizard I am using, and by forcing Showdown to, you are technically altering game mechanics by forcing the message to appear alerting the opponent, the same as if you removed the message for Mold Breaker.
I personally feel that our suspect tests /discussions should have a requirement that you need to have been part of the forums for x amount of time before being able to partake in them. That way we don't get random people from places like /vp joining just to spout uninformed opinions or derailing threads just so we can repeat ourselves to them.
What's all the big issue you are making out of this? It's just a survey! You don't need to censor surveys as far as I know.
Lucarionite: 125 Ban, 8 Do Not Ban, 3 Abstain -> Uber with a 94% majority
If that doesnt scream obviously broken i dont know what else does.
We SHOULDNT make decisions based on what we want, we should make decisions based on whats best for the meta, you completely confirmed my point that players will vote in suspect tests for what is in their best interest, while the council will be focused on balancing the tier. It would be great if every player voting in a suspect test were great, open minded players but we all know this is NOT true and is the reason why they are flawed and why the council system is better. Is it perfect? No its not, but it will achieve much better results in the long run as xy uu has shown whereas xy ou is still complaining about how unbalanced the tier is.
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