Shed Tail OR Cyclizar- might be a controversial discussion to some but we discussed about this a bit in the council chat as well but I think there's mutual agreement that Shed Tail support is unhealthy and needs to go; Pokemon like Kyurem-B, Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon and Terapagos to a lesser extent, getting a pivot and free sub is far from healthy. However, the point of contention if the move as a whole is problem or if its just Cyclizar's access to the move that's overbearing. Personally, I'm of the opinion that Cyclizar is the only Pokemon that abuses it to an unhealthy extent given all the Pokemon I listed above are Pokemon that share the same type as Cyclizar and I am yet to see any Steel or Grass-type teams abuse Shed Tail support from Orthworm or Sceptile to the same degree. Curious to see how others feel about Shed Tail vs. Cyclizar right now.
Gouging Fire - I've seen people use all kinds of sets on it, having access to Sun in tandem with Sun-boosted Protosynthesis and 75% Morning Sun by default along with Dragon Dance feels a bit much. I haven't used it as much as I'd like to but from the little bit I've used it and based on what I've seen so far it treads the line of unhealthy. Slight preference to ban it but don't feel that strongly either way, for now.
I think Shed Tail the move itself is broken rather than any particular abuser. Yes, Cyclizar is clearly the best Shed Tail due to Regenerator, its high Speed, and other valuable utility, but the other Shed Tail mons have their own strengths too. Orthworm is an incredibly physically bulky Ground immune that restores HP when hit with a Ground attack and a Spikes setter, while Sceptile has the exact same Speed as Cyclizar but with better special bulk, Sitrus Berry + Unburden to give it a free opportunity to pass Shed Tail, direct healing with Synthesis, and Leech Seed access to either force switches or further enable sweepers. As mushamu pointed out, Steel and Grass also have plenty of powerful abusers of Shed Tail in Kingambit, Gholdengo, Ogerpon-H, and Hydrapple who can easily take a game behind a free substitute. The way I see it, Shed Tail is a support move that is way too easy to abuse and far too strong for enabling sweepers, with a wrong choice of leads or a lack of Speed/priority having the potential to rapidly spiral into an automatic loss. I think simply banning Cyclizar while keeping these other abusers is only a piecemeal solution that does not really solve the fundamental problem, which is the move itself; the cheese will be less prevalent for sure, but still very much present in the tier. I therefore favour banning Shed Tail itself over Cyclizar.Shed Tail OR Cyclizar
- super brainless. Doesn't even feel broken, just absurdly easy to use and is extremely capable of turning games that would otherwise be lost into wins. Would not be opposed to tiering action (though, I would not be opposed to just letting it stay) but I think there are some other things that need to go first.
- not really sure how we went from suspecting Baxcalibur to allowing the guy Baxcalibur tells you not to worry about. I voted ban on Bax so it shouldn't be a surprise I want this gone too. If it were almost any other type it might be fine, but veil / shed tail is just too good. Definitely think there's also a conversation to be had when it comes to veil / shed tail as well, but Kyurem-Black is obviously the issue here.
- we were fine without this. I believe it'll become more of a prominent issue once the more egregious things are taken care of, but I am not a fan.
- Let me preface this by saying I don't think Solgaleo immediately needs to go, it feels a little underwhelming so far but I expected it to be an unkillable world beater. I do however think there is a broken set just waiting to be discovered and that will be the one to push it over the edge. Whether it's Dragon Dance Weakness Policy behind screens or Cosmic Power stuff, I believe there are a lot better alternatives to what I've seen so far.
- I hope for Christmas Santa removes these two idiots from the tier. Scarfire already said everything worth saying but I hate these dudes.
- for those who might not know, both Latios and Latias had their signature moves (Luster Purge and Mist Ball) buffed to 95 base power. Latios also gained Flip Turn. I think Latios has the potential to be a super solid pick for Dragon teams, a 95 base power move with a 50% chance to drop Special Defense is super strong. Latias is good too but I am more interested in Latios
- there has to be something here, and no I don't mean sash spikes. Meteor Beam + Expanding Force seems like a great combination in my head, and I am curious to see if anybody is able to make it work. 95 base Special Attack might not seem great but Meteor Beam gives +1 Special Attack. Psychic Terrain also protects Deoxys from priority moves, making it only able to be picked off by a select few scarfers.
- haven't tried it and this is my first generation playing monotype so I want to see what all the hype is about. I really don't think it'll be too much but I'm newer so idk.Terastal is banned.
This would fall more under simple questions but it would likely be for the same case of regular Tera. All it takes is for one boost to push something that lives normally into range of dying or not being able to wall/kill an important mon still alive on the other side which is especially important in Monotype where types generally only have 1 or 2 neutralities/immunities to their weaknesses.
I feel like this is not a valid argument as you can simply unban tera and restrict the type to stellar.
I agree this is indeed a problem but I don't believe this boost is significant enough. Since both players have access, both players can equally push through. I feel like for the losing type, it could be key as often, there is exactly one pokemon standing in front of your dedicate pokemon to break through a type. Now, I have to admit, this may be true for the advantage type moreso because the lesser type often have fewer pokemon to check the advantage type but I feel this is worth the trade off. One of the main reason(and I would argue much more crucial reason) tera was banned before was the type change. For example, tera-fire-ing skeledirge would prevent bugs like lokix to push through. Making the ghost vs bug MU much more one sided.
Saying "this is not a valid argument" doesn't make it not a valid argument. Implementing Stellar would be pretty much 2 complex bans at once. It'd basically change mono from having a single type clause, and tera ban. To "single type clause with the exception of turning into a stellar type" and "tera is banned apart from Stellar", every tier very much tries to avoid these complex bans and I'll agree it makes no sense to have an exception made at least in my opinion.
. Really curious on how water shines now after a big typechart shift, how Baxcalibur feels without shed tail, and how Deospeed psychic is without solgaleo. Terapogos and Gouging Fire also should be kept well within sight as we see the new shed tailless meta unfold. wait for it tier
OR
^ Nor is it particularly hard to get rid of Darks given the amount of support you have from mons like Gallade (also beats most Steels) Hatterene, Gardevoir, and Iron Boulder, the last of which creeps both Greninja and Meowscarada.
The Pokemon that abuse it
Does Gouging Fire consistently run Burning Bulwark? If so, I'd be surprised - it usually wants Dragon Dance / Fire STAB / Dragon STAB / Morning Sun. Kleavor can revenge kill it, but if it's Choice Band (which I run), it really sucks for Bug teams. I mean...Fire always sucked as an MU for Bug.
While bulwark is less common than standard set you named, I have seen it often enough for it to not be discarded as a possibility. Also gouging fire outspeeds and OHKOes scarf kleavor after 1 DD and Stone axe does not OHKO.
On paper, looks kind of good
"But if you close your eyes."
I really want acrobatics on skarm/birds with weak armor in general. Like that I can run weak armor with white herb + acro but sigh.
