Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 11: Mask

[hidin]

Hello, hidin here! After the results of our most recent survey, the National Dex OU council has decided to suspect our watery masked mischief maker - Ogerpon-Wellspring!

​

After a short break from tiering action, we have chosen to take a look at Ogerpon-Wellspring, a familiar face in the metagame due to its sheer strength, consistency, and popularity as a wallbreaker. While Ogerpon-Wellspring was brought up for tiering action quite a few times across the span of the Teal Mask DLC and the current post-Indigo Disk DLC metagame, we have finally reached a point where it feels most appropriate to suspect test it. With a recent survey score of 3.40/5 along with past scores being around the same level, there is evident long-term interest from the community that Ogerpon-Wellspring should be tested.

What stands out about Ogerpon-Wellspring is its great STAB combination with its wide coverage and utility options alongside a hefty Attack stat, further boosted by its held item, and a respectable Speed tier to maintain offensive pressure. Swords Dance in particular is the flagship set that Ogerpon-Wellspring uses frequently, increasing the power of its strong STAB moves in Ivy Cudgel and Power Whip, often forcing switches due to how strong its boosted attacks can be against even bulkier opponents like Toxapex and Corviknight. Additionally, the aforementioned Pokemon and others such as Zapdos, Dondozo, Alomomola, and more often have to run Tera Dragon to stand a chance against a boosted Ogerpon-Wellspring which often has the power to brute force its way through them. It is also capable of beating many of its checks under the right circumstances; Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Kartana have to fear for Superpower, while Dragon-types like Raging Bolt, Dragonite, and Mega Latias can be picked off by play rough. Even Grass-type revenge killers like Rillaboom and Serperior are chunked for a significant amount of damage by ivy cudgel if switching in. With decent 80/84/96 bulk, revenge killing can be less than reliable without prior chip damage. Utility options, specifically Taunt or Encore, can cripple defensive answers like Flip Turn Alomomola, Iron Defense Zamazenta, and Curse Dondozo. When it comes to Terastallization, Ogerpon-Wellspring excels at abusing it due to a built-in Special Defense boost that turns the tables on revenge killers like Tornadus-T or Tapu Lele while boosting its Ivy Cudgel to absurd levels, often achieving the 2HKO on bulky foes like Ferrothorn after a single Swords Dance. With all of this said, Ogerpon-Wellspring is without a doubt an elite offensive threat in the metagame that should always be respected in the builder and accounted for on any team in the present metagame.

While Ogerpon-Wellspring boasts many solid traits as an offensive Pokemon, it is not the embodiment (No aspect) of a truly overwhelming sweeper. Its decent speed tier is taken advantage of by other offensive threats, and the opportunities it has to enter the field and go for a sweep, with the right play, can be dissuaded efficiently. Pokemon like Raging Bolt and Dragonite often do well into Ogerpon-Wellspring and severely damage it, but as always should watch out for potential coverage. Other Pokemon that check Ogerpon-Wellspring sufficiently and provide offensive pressure such as Zamazenta and Rillaboom can prevent it from getting out of control with a sweep as well. Bulkier Pokemon like Tera Dragon Dondozo, Ferrothorn, and the niche Tangrowth can mitigate Ogerpon-Wellspring's ability to make much progress along with threatening it with chip damage. Even with all of the methods Ogerpon-Wellspring has against these Pokemon, all of the aforementioned checks and counters still can keep it from spiraling out of control.

Given the prolonged support for tiering action from the community alongside the multiple powerful attributes of Ogerpon-Wellspring, the National Dex OU Council feels that a suspect test of Ogerpon-Wellspring is the best course of action at this time.

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
• The table for this can be found below:
  
  Minimum Games Needed

  GXE	minimum games
  80	50
  80.2	49
  80.4	48
  80.6	47
  80.8	46
  81	45
  81.2	44
  81.4	43
  81.6	42
  81.8	41
  82	40
  82.2	39
  82.4	38
  82.6	37
  82.8	36
  83	35
  83.2	34
  83.4	33
  83.6	32
  83.8	31
  84	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be ND9PON. For example, I could sign up as ND9PON hidin.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• The suspect test will run for approximately two weeks, lasting until May 5th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will open after 24 hours to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Here's a list of rules that we expect all posters to follow:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Council and the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokémon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the hypotheticals and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokémon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokémon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result of this suspect, then so be it.
  • This is not the place to complain about the suspect process. Please PM Kyo or Sulo if you have any questions regarding this, and any broader questions about this test.

Keep in mind that the outcome of our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote and voice their opinion. Please remember to be respectful to everyone, and as always; the outcome is up to you.

 

[Kyo]

This thread will remain closed for 24 hours for everyone to gather their thoughts. Good luck laddering!

 

[xTimeCrystal]

This guy is ridiculously overpowered, and the only reason I didn't lose to it during laddering is because everyone somehow decided to just switch it in on a Choice Scarf Samurott-Hisui or because it did not expect Landorus-Therian to be Choice Scarf or because it kept getting completely walled by Venusaur-Mega or because it kept dying to Raging Bolt, etc.

If you haven't realized it yet, this guy is not that overpowered in my opinion, since my team just happens to have multiple different ways to check it, but for other teams, this mon is hilariously stupid. However, fat balance with Alomomola or Stall can easily get destroyed by this guy, and if it SDs up too many times no Raging Bolt or Venusaur Mega can live a hit. Overall, fairly balanced only if you keep lots of Choice Scarfers on hand.

Oh? Ogerpon-Wellspring used Trailblaze!!!
Well, in theory, this set can outspeed those scarfers, but it is probably pretty difficult to set up so many times in such an offensive metagame. Overall, will be voting ban since I don't like mons that have the potential to blow up teams, as they make certain playstyles unreliable.

If I'm wrong, please correct me and I will edit this post in response!

 

[S0A0M0I0]

X Ogerpon-Wellspring should be banned from National Dex OU X

To cut it short, Ogerpon-W's speed and great offensive presence in the tier let her cleave through most of her "checks" whether it be through sheer power or through its wide coverage. Unlike other strong setup sweepers or wallbreakers, such as Kartana or even Urshifu-R, she isn't frail either because of her solid defensive typing and ability in Water Absorb giving her plenty of switch-ins, and when used with Tera, she becomes very hard to both revenge-kill and successfully wall.

Firstly, Ogerpon's speed and bulk are incredible. She outspeeds Pokemon like Kartana, Garchomp and Mega Charizard Y, meaning not a lot of things can naturally revenge-kill her. Not all of the mons that naturally outspeed can revenge-kill, such as Mega Diancie, Iron Valiant and non-Sludge Bomb Darkrai failing to do so if Ogerpon-W is healthy enough, while taking heavy damage in the process. All of the mons that outspeed Ogerpon-W are unable to safely switch in as well, apart from Serperior, who has to be fully healthy to do so, and Zamazenta, who has to of not come in already during the game (to have +1 defense). Combine this with Water Absorb to stuff Water-types like Barraskewda, Urshifu-R and especially Mega Swampert, it means getting Ogerpon-W into a game isn't as tricky as one would usually think of a setup sweeper, while she still functions well at that role, considering her absurd power and movepool. Here are a few calcs that show that Ogerpon-W is bulky enough to avoid reliable revenge-killing by faster Pokemon, or her "checks":

Ogerpon-W's bulk

252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 214-253 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 169-199 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 235-277 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring in Electric Terrain: 160-189 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 286-337 (95 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 153-180 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
228 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 184-217 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 160-190 (53.1 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 219-258 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring in Psychic Terrain: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
48 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 168-198 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Latios-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 255-301 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
128 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 190-225 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Boulder Mighty Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 169-201 (56.1 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

All of the calcs above are WITHOUT tera by the way, as Tera Water gives Ogerpon-W a +1 SpDef boost, making a lot of the special attackers into 3HKOs apart from Serperior or Tapu Koko who still can't OHKO, while also making would be OHKOs such as Choice Band Weavile's Triple Axel or Tornadus-T's Hurricane into 2HKOs; proving that Ogerpon-W is difficult to slow down once it gets going, which clearly isn't that hard.

Once she gets going though, there's very little that can reliably stop Ogerpon-W. Grass/Water, despite it not hitting Grass neutrally, is still a phenomenal type combination offensively, especially since it shuts down Dondozo and Alomomola, who would otherwise wall Water-type sweepers like Ogerpon-W, while ensuring she isn't stopped by bulky Fire-types like Skeledirge or even Gouging Fire. Her coverage in Play Rough allows her to hit Dragon-types like Dragonite or Mega Latios for good damage, while Superpower destroys Ferrothorn, Kartana and Archaludon. This near-perfect coverage makes Ogerpon-W very hard to stop, especially if she hasn't been fully scouted yet; going into Mega Latios to get destroyed by Play Rough predicting Superpower, or going into Ferrothorn predicting Play Rough only to get destroyed by Superpower, it creates unhealthy 50/50s in the tier, which even Ogerpon-W can abuse by just setting up further, while she remains difficult to revenge-kill reliably:

Ogerpon-W's power and coverage (not including Swords Dance boosts cuz at that point she 2hkos/ohkos everything)

Ivy Cudgel
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 195-229 (54.6 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 195-231 (71.9 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking-Galar: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 211-250 (75 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 235-277 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 202-238 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 184 HP / 108 Def Tornadus-Therian: 196-232 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ivy Cudgel with Terastalization
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Corviknight: 182-216 (45.6 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Skarmory: 146-174 (43.7 - 52%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 192-228 (60.3 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 204-242 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 112+ Def Scizor-Mega: 156-184 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 202-238 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 130-153 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Power Whip and Horn Leech
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Horn Leech vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 234-276 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 336-396 (104.6 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 180-213 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 290-344 (57.5 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 160-190 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Superpower
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Superpower vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Ferrothorn: 208-246 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Superpower vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 236-278 (80.5 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 238-280 (74.1 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Steel Slowking-Galar: 356-420 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Play Rough
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 232-274 (71.8 - 84.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 224-264 (74.4 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 192-226 (52.7 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 76 HP / 48 Def Raging Bolt: 228-270 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You could argue she has 4MSS between Swords Dance, STAB and her coverage choice, but it's really not as bad as other Pokemon such as Darkrai or Mega Diancie or even Dragonite. The worst part is that she's not just a 3A mon, she has great utility moves such as Encore, which can completely shut down defensive teams with Ferrothorn, Alomomola and Galarian Slowking, while giving herself free setup opportunities, which isn't too difficult because of her great speed. There are even other options such as Trailblaze, Knock Off and Taunt which make switching around unscouted Ogerpon-W very awkward as she applies so much pressure to balance and fat teams alike, making Ogerpon-W quite unhealthy to play against, as one wrong predict or switch can cost the entire game, especially since she is one of the best Tera abusers in the tier right now, pushing her damage to insane feats when paired with Swords Dance, as shown above.

Her influence on teambuilding is very noticeable as well. Without bulky Dragon-types or potentially multiple Tera Dragon mons like Alomomola, some teams can get completely overwhelmed by Ogerpon-W after a single Swords Dance, with more offensive teams similarly struggling without some form of priority such as Rillaboom or Weavile. She makes these playstyles unreliable, especially since there are multiple instances of Ogerpon-W simply muscling through her would-be answers, especially after chip from teammates like Tapu Koko or Mega Tyranitar. I've seen teams that would be quite solid if their Ogerpon-W matchup wasn't so horrible. I've seen entire mons like Mega Swampert fall from grace since her introduction since she can abuse them and their archetypes so harshly.

Overall, I believe National Dex OU would be better off without Ogerpon-W due to her ridiculous stats, movepool and tendency to create unhealthy situations for the majority of teams in the tier. Ban Ogerpon-W.

ok now i actually have to get suspect reqs (i hate ladder so much watch as i flop this)
update: im fucking washed

 

[1yr]

Hi

To cut it short, Ogerpon-W's speed and great offensive presence in the tier let her cleave through most of its "checks" whether it be through sheer power or through its wide coverage. Unlike other strong setup sweepers or wallbreakers, such as Kartana or even Urshifu-R, she isn't frail either because of her solid defensive typing and ability in Water Absorb giving her plenty of switch-ins, and when used with Tera, she becomes very hard to both revenge-kill and successfully wall.

Ok lets get into it x3

Firstly, Ogerpon's speed and bulk are incredible. She outspeeds Pokemon like Kartana, Garchomp and Mega Charizard Y, meaning not a lot of things can naturally revenge-kill her. Not all of the mons that naturally outspeed can revenge-kill, such as Mega Diancie, Iron Valiant and non-Sludge Bomb Darkrai failing to do so if Ogerpon-W is healthy enough, while taking heavy damage in the process. All of the mons that outspeed Ogerpon-W are unable to safely switch in as well, apart from Serperior, who has to be fully healthy to do so, and Zamazenta, who has to of not come in already during the game (to have +1 defense). Combine this with Water Absorb to stuff Water-types like Barraskewda, Urshifu-R and especially Mega Swampert, it means getting Ogerpon-W into a game isn't as tricky as one would usually think of a setup sweeper, while she still functions well at that role, considering her absurd power and movepool. Here are a few calcs that show that Ogerpon-W is bulky enough to avoid reliable revenge-killing by faster Pokemon, or her "checks":

i read all the calcs and they're all presupposing ogerpon will be at max, i dont believe this would be the case for different pokemon to revenge kill or punish it because in most cases ogerpon is taking chip from the mon coming in also if we take rocks into account ogerpon gets chipped more and more everytime it comes in making it so most of the calcs kill. Also all the mons u say are faster than ogerpon and dont oneshot ogerpon usually dont get oneshot by ogerpon unless its at +2 which in that case it likely already took chip while setting up.

252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 214-253 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

To first address this one, you used a calc from a non banded close combat zamazenta which is hardly ran id like to say around 5 percent of the time compared to a whopping 27 percent of people using banded over it
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 322-379 (106.9 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

refutation to defensive calcs

+1 0 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 169-199 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

theres no virtually no situations where ogerpon comes out on that on top or where zamazenta just body presses there the most ogerpon can do is hope and pray for a crit
+3 0 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 280-331 (93 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. +3 252 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 176-208 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 235-277 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

i dont understand this calc because if lopunny doesnt kill why wouldnt the user just fake out first? also 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 195-231 (71.9 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
it doesnt even kill it can click return then cc to ensure it dies or if it has setup can just fakeout cc and if it takes stealth rock fake out plus uturn kills it

252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring in Electric Terrain: 160-189 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

specs is run almost triple as much as boots and is much more common which specs kills after it gets chipped by virtually anything PLUS ogerpon kinda relies on its tera to break most of its walls which makes it supereffective and oneshottable by virtually any koko set

252 SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

darkrai always runs sludge bomb on specs and you also dont even kill without boosts unless you're running superpower and to refer to a previous point that i made if it did setup it likely took chip in the process putting it in range for darkrai dark pulse!

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 286-337 (95 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

same logic with the darkrai one goes here plus focus blast is more likely to kill it lol

252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 153-180 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

serperior pretty easily beat oger in my opinion i believe it should be easy to just hardswitch serp if oger comes in and threaten it out with either glare or leafstorm the only thing i see being annoying for serp are the superpower sets if oger gets +2 but then again you can glare and cripple it making it fodder for something else to just come in and kill it

228 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 184-217 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

respectable calc and its a speedtie idt diancie stands much of a chance aswell

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 160-190 (53.1 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to

ogerpon v ogerpon calcs are kinda wild but u got it bruh :sob: (oger gets chipped p easily by stealth rocks putting it in range for either one and one just has to hope to win the speedtie)

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 219-258 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

this follows the same logic as the darkrai analogy to where if ogerpon gets chipped (which isnt a tough ass task to pull off) but even if we take it at face value and lets say oger just kills whatever is in before without setup it has to get lucky to kill kart
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 236-278 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring in Psychic Terrain: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

i think it should be obvious scarf doesnt kill its a fine point though ill give u that pal

252 SpA Latios-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 255-301 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

darkrai analogy+oger cant touch this mon unless it runs play rough (which it rarely does)

128 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 190-225 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

cinderace runs max attack 80 percent of the time
252 Atk Libero Cinderace U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 246-290 (81.7 - 96.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Iron Boulder Mighty Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 169-201 (56.1 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

this is kinda obvious i think iron boulder is rlly weak without its setup.

overall you make a pretty good point even though i dont agree with it but you're taking ogerpon at 100 percent against all these revenge killers which i dont think is genuine considering how easy it is to chip it nor do i think its relevant because all the mons kill it after tera :)

All of the calcs above are WITHOUT tera by the way, as Tera Water gives Ogerpon-W a +1 SpDef boost, making a lot of the special attackers into 3HKOs apart from Serperior or Tapu Koko who still can't OHKO, while also making would be OHKOs such as Choice Band Weavile's Triple Axel or Tornadus-T's Hurricane into 2HKOs; proving that Ogerpon-W is difficult to slow down once it gets going, which clearly isn't that hard.

this makes it lose out on its water absorb which makes it fairly easy for someone to burn it with scald and also makes it vulnerable to different grass and electric moves making it weak to rillaboom and raging bolt and venusaur who already have a great matchup into it and to address ogerpon being easy to "get going" yeah you can kinda setup in a lot of situations but not really without taking chip which puts it in range for many of the listed mons above.

Once she gets going though, there's very little that can reliably stop Ogerpon-W. Grass/Water, despite it not hitting Grass neutrally, is still a phenomenal type combination offensively, especially since it shuts down Dondozo and Alomomola, who would otherwise wall Water-type sweepers like Ogerpon-W, while ensuring she isn't stopped by bulky Fire-types like Skeledirge or even Gouging Fire. Her coverage in Play Rough allows her to hit Dragon-types like Dragonite or Mega Latios for good damage, while Superpower destroys Ferrothorn, Kartana and Archaludon. This near-perfect coverage makes Ogerpon-W very hard to stop, especially if she hasn't been fully scouted yet; going into Mega Latios to get destroyed by Play Rough predicting Superpower, or going into Ferrothorn predicting Play Rough only to get destroyed by Superpower, it creates unhealthy 50/50s in the tier, which even Ogerpon-W can abuse by just setting up further, while she remains difficult to revenge-kill reliably:

i think this makes a good point but ogerpon kinda easily gets tera dragon body pressed by dondozo and loses the 1v1 and also play rough is rarely used so i dont think it should be brough up that much aswell as people predicting play rough going into things like ferrothorn haha. (im not gonna address the last bit cuz idw sound like a broken record with how many times i have addressed revenge killing) and raging bolt also gives very unhealthy 50/50s with thunderclap and tera ect but i dont think that really matters within the meta (in context of 50/50s even in conjunction with what this user had mentioned before)

refutation to offensive calcs

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 195-229 (54.6 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 358-423 (118.9 - 140.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 195-231 (71.9 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

lopunny absolutely fries this thing with fakeout+close combat and it also doesnt even kill as mentioned before.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking-Galar: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

slowking can tera dragon or grass and paralyze it or pivot into something that may have a better matchup against oger and or force it out/kill it

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 211-250 (75 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

i think this discredits your point with it being p easy for koko to just volt switch or tbolt

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 235-277 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

yeah it does beat up lele p badly but im p sure lele 2hits it so as long as the lele is max hp and oger has no setup lele should b okay unless the oger gets lucky ig

Ivy Cudgel with Terastalization
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Corviknight: 182-216 (45.6 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Skarmory: 146-174 (43.7 - 52%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

both of these mons run tera dragon

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 192-228 (60.3 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

wowza this thing 2hkos hatterene it must cause big trouble
252+ Atk Life Orb Trapinch Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 152-179 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

this mon is only good when used for eject button support so it just pivots into something via that and gives ogerpon trouble!!!!1!!

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 204-242 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 112+ Def Scizor-Mega: 156-184 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 202-238 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 130-153 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

all these mons just revenge kill it sir

Power Whip and Horn Leech
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Horn Leech vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 234-276 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 336-396 (104.6 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 180-213 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 290-344 (57.5 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 160-190 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

i dont think these matter ngl most are pretty obvious and its a stab move the only relevant one is dozo who just tera dragons

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Superpower vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Ferrothorn: 208-246 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

thats kinda wild it dont even kill but ya there shouldnt be much explaining to do here because ferro also runs tera ghost but idt it matters too much because if u run taunt to stop the thunder wave you're losing out on the superpower i do start to see the 50/50s you're talking about but the same goes for many other mons in the meta and idt that should be something that makes it banned

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Superpower vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 236-278 (80.5 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

i already talked about kart above

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 238-280 (74.1 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

archaludon gets a defense boost if it switches into a cudgel or pwhip prior tanking it pretty lightly and can even bait out a superpower by switching by switching out to scout or tera fairy/flying to kill it all together

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Steel Slowking-Galar: 356-420 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

ok

Play Rough
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 232-274 (71.8 - 84.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 224-264 (74.4 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 192-226 (52.7 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 76 HP / 48 Def Raging Bolt: 228-270 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

play rough is rarely ever ran and plus these mons nuke it either way

You could argue she has 4MSS between Swords Dance, STAB and her coverage choice, but it's really not as bad as other Pokemon such as Darkrai or Mega Diancie or even Dragonite. The worst part is that she's not just a 3A mon, she has great utility moves such as Encore, which can completely shut down defensive teams with Ferrothorn, Alomomola and Galarian Slowking, while giving herself free setup opportunities, which isn't too difficult because of her great speed. There are even other options such as Trailblaze, Knock Off and Taunt which make switching around unscouted Ogerpon-W very awkward as she applies so much pressure to balance and fat teams alike, making Ogerpon-W quite unhealthy to play against, as one wrong predict or switch can cost the entire game, especially since she is one of the best Tera abusers in the tier right now, pushing her damage to insane feats when paired with Swords Dance, as shown above.

To summarize my current arg and what was stated before (it directly correlates with this that i wrote earlier), Ogerpon has solid defense and great offensive capabilities but requires a good opening as all sweepers do, and with it having no relevant status immunities (i.e toxic, t wave, wisp ect), another issue with this mon is its 4 move syndrome, where it wants to run taunt or encore for stall teams and also requires superpower to excel against balance or offense. I don't believe there's anything that makes Ogerpon doesn't excel enough in any particular regard to warrant a ban.

Her influence on teambuilding is very noticeable as well. Without bulky Dragon-types or potentially multiple Tera Dragon mons like Alomomola, some teams can get completely overwhelmed by Ogerpon-W after a single Swords Dance, with more offensive teams similarly struggling without some form of priority such as Rillaboom or Weavile. She makes these playstyles unreliable, especially since there are multiple instances of Ogerpon-W simply muscling through her would-be answers, especially after chip from teammates like Tapu Koko or Mega Tyranitar. I've seen teams that would be quite solid if their Ogerpon-W matchup wasn't so horrible. I've seen entire mons like Mega Swampert fall from grace since her introduction since she can abuse them and their archetypes so harshly.

bulky dragon types are quite common and easy to slot on like raging bolt, dragonite, kyurem, sometimes kommo ect
abilities but requires a good opening as all sweepers do, and with it having no relevant status immunities (i.e toxic, t wave, wisp ect), another issue with this mon is its 4 move syndrome, where it wants to run taunt or encore for stall teams and also requires superpower to excel against balance or offense. I don't believe there's anything that makes Ogerpon doesn't excel enough in any particular regard to warrant a ban.

Overall, I believe National Dex OU would be better off without Ogerpon-W due to her ridiculous stats, movepool and tendency to create unhealthy situations for the majority of teams in the tier. Ban Ogerpon-W.

nuh uh + ratio #freemahboyogerponheaintdonothin #adriyun4council #iloveadriyun #adriyunisawesome #ilovesetset #MAKENDGREATAGAIN
mb if grammar is bad im on like no sleep

 

[Moyashi]

this makes it lose out on its water absorb which makes it fairly easy for someone to burn it with scald and also makes it vulnerable to different grass and electric moves making it weak to rillaboom and raging bolt and venusaur who already have a great matchup into it and to address ogerpon being easy to "get going" yeah you can kinda setup in a lot of situations but not really without taking chip which puts it in range for many of the listed mons above.

This isn't really relevant as there is all of two relevant scald users in the tier and one of those loses to Wellspring irrespective of its ability. Toxapex meanwhile has to remain above 80% or it gets OHKOd by a +2 Power Whip so that's shaky too. Regarding Rilla and Bolt, the former is just a niche mon at best and not very good outside using GG to check Wellspring and even then it requires band to at all threaten it (or anything else for that matter). Bolt meanwhile, well...

252+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 182-216 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So you're not guaranteed. Plus in games with either, you don't have to tera unless your opponent is stacking multiple fat resists to it. But that gets into the problem of it being so centralizing in the builder. Also where is it taking chip while setting up? It chases out mons who are forced to manually switch out.

i think this makes a good point but ogerpon kinda easily gets tera dragon body pressed by dondozo and loses the 1v1 and also play rough is rarely used so i dont think it should be brough up that much aswell as people predicting play rough going into things like ferrothorn haha. (im not gonna address the last bit cuz idw sound like a broken record with how many times i have addressed revenge killing) and raging bolt also gives very unhealthy 50/50s with thunderclap and tera ect but i dont think that really matters within the meta (in context of 50/50s even in conjunction with what this user had mentioned before)

Dondozo is forced to run Body Press which limits its effectiveness as you can't run curse+resttalk, plus Don is highly vulnerable to encore sets. Play Rough is not as common as other sets but it's a fairly big part of its kit and still run at high level. It being less common does not mean you should not consider it or respect it, that's just foolish. You also cannot "predict" play rough and go into something like Ferrothorn because you don't predict the 4th slot on Wellspring. It's a pokemon that you CANNOT risklessly scout. Enjoy switching in Ferro just to get Superpowered and now both it and its teammates are free to run train on your team. (btw less relevant but no Raging Bolt does not give unhealthy 50/50s stop).

both of these mons run tera dragon

Corv and Skarm lose to Encore and also are forced to run Tera Dragon which is a mediocre choice on them as it opens them up to fairies they should normally be checking and forcing you to run extra measures or just end up in an exploitable position.

wowza this thing 2hkos hatterene it must cause big trouble
252+ Atk Life Orb Trapinch Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 152-179 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

this mon is only good when used for eject button support so it just pivots into something via that and gives ogerpon trouble!!!!1!!

And this is just disingenous and no offense, somewhat bad faith in tone. The point is the power making it highly difficult to switch into without fat resists.

all these mons just revenge kill it sir

With the exception of Serperior, they all drop to +2 attacks so no.

thats kinda wild it dont even kill but ya there shouldnt be much explaining to do here because ferro also runs tera ghost but idt it matters too much because if u run taunt to stop the thunder wave you're losing out on the superpower i do start to see the 50/50s you're talking about but the same goes for many other mons in the meta and idt that should be something that makes it banned

Dies to +2 and you don't know if it is superpower forcing you to make risky plays and predictions which is not very healthy.

archaludon gets a defense boost if it switches into a cudgel or pwhip prior tanking it pretty lightly and can even bait out a superpower by switching by switching out to scout or tera fairy/flying to kill it all together

Dies to +2 Superpower and can't even kill back. Plus is rain exclusive (no it's not good off of rain).

To summarize my current arg and what was stated before (it directly correlates with this that i wrote earlier), Ogerpon has solid defense and great offensive capabilities but requires a good opening as all sweepers do, and with it having no relevant status immunities (i.e toxic, t wave, wisp ect), another issue with this mon is its 4 move syndrome, where it wants to run taunt or encore for stall teams and also requires superpower to excel against balance or offense. I don't believe there's anything that makes Ogerpon doesn't excel enough in any particular regard to warrant a ban.

Wellspring is able to open up for itself because of its power and coverage, which is why it's renowned as a premier progress maker in games. It doesn't have to SD but the threat of it only makes it worse to handle. Not sure what having no relevant status immunities has to do with anything since... what mon is able to land status on it that isn't blown up by a +2 move? It also does not really suffer from 4MSS and this is a phrase that gets thrown around too much. Just the threat of SD+Stabs+Superpower covers most of the tier, and the extra choice of moves is just icing on the cake which lets it handpick counterplay. And that is at its whim, making it something you often have to go pretty well out of your way to cover in the builder. Not running a move to beat stall doesn't keep a mon from being broken and if anything, if stall was the only defensive playstyle able to handle it that would be all the more reason to axe it.

bulky dragon types are quite common and easy to slot on like raging bolt, dragonite, kyurem, sometimes kommo ect
abilities but requires a good opening as all sweepers do, and with it having no relevant status immunities (i.e toxic, t wave, wisp ect), another issue with this mon is its 4 move syndrome, where it wants to run taunt or encore for stall teams and also requires superpower to excel against balance or offense. I don't believe there's anything that makes Ogerpon doesn't excel enough in any particular regard to warrant a ban.

Kyurem drops to superpower, Kommo-O is fringe and not really good (plus drops to +2 superpower with a spike up anyways lol). Raging Bolt can switch into unboosted attacks once and then +2 superpower actually drops it (and hazards are a big limiting factor in using Bolt to check Wellspring as they rip into its longevity). Dragonite is the only one that doesn't lose to standard in most circumstancs, but it is a flawed pokemon and isn't the easiest to fit on teams (especially not bulkier structures). And of course Play Rough, as I said, exists and has to be respected which slashes all of these.

Lots of what I've said here is very scattered (not feeling that great today thanks to weather related sinus pressure) but once i'm done getting reqs I'll be sharing a more organized summary of my thoughts on Wellspring and why I intend to vote strongly for a ban on it.

 

[Emolgang]

This isn't really relevant as there is all of two relevant scald users in the tier and one of those loses to Wellspring irrespective of its ability. Toxapex meanwhile has to remain above 80% or it gets OHKOd by a +2 Power Whip so that's shaky too. Regarding Rilla and Bolt, the former is just a niche mon at best and not very good outside using GG to check Wellspring and even then it requires band to at all threaten it (or anything else for that matter). Bolt meanwhile, well...

I agree with the thing about scald users but I don't know why you went on about the Rillaboom thing, Rillaboom is niche sure but it's not like it's obsolete, and I don't see a purpose in talking about it having to run CB as if it doesn't already run it on almost every team that uses Rilla.

252+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 182-216 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So you're not guaranteed. Plus in games with either, you don't have to tera unless your opponent is stacking multiple fat resists to it. But that gets into the problem of it being so centralizing in the builder. Also where is it taking chip while setting up? It chases out mons who are forced to manually switch out.

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Superpower vs. 76 HP / 48 Def Raging Bolt: 304-358 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even if the Waterpon doesn't Tera it loses to Raging Bolt still:

252+ SpA Raging Bolt Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 375-442 (124.5 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rillaboom doesn't win the 1v1 if the Ogerpon is non Tera +2, but it creates a good opening to revenge kill. Can you elaborate on the mons waterpon is setting up on for free? To my understanding most if not all the mons that Ogerpon tends to set up on have some way of chipping it.

Dondozo is forced to run Body Press which limits its effectiveness as you can't run curse+resttalk, plus Don is highly vulnerable to encore sets. Play Rough is not as common as other sets but it's a fairly big part of its kit and still run at high level. It being less common does not mean you should not consider it or respect it, that's just foolish. You also cannot "predict" play rough and go into something like Ferrothorn because you don't predict the 4th slot on Wellspring. It's a pokemon that you CANNOT risklessly scout. Enjoy switching in Ferro just to get Superpowered and now both it and its teammates are free to run train on your team. (btw less relevant but no Raging Bolt does not give unhealthy 50/50s stop).

Encore can hardly be considered a threat to Tera Dragon Dondozo unless the ogerpon is switching into a dozo which is already out and didnt click body press (which is not common), otherwise the dozo just has to tera Dragon body press as soon as it can. Play Rough will not save ogerpon from the endless wrath of Dozo either

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Tera Dragon Dondozo: 146-174 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 5.8% chance to 3HKO

252+ Def Tera Dragon Dondozo Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I agree with not being able to predict play rough because honestly the move is pretty niche and less favorable to superpower and taunt. (Btw less relevant but Raging Bolt absolutely creates 50/50s with its duel STAB Coverage and access to strong priority leading your opponent to a guessing game if they don't have ferro or ting lu which gets chipped down.

Corv and Skarm lose to Encore and also are forced to run Tera Dragon which is a mediocre choice on them as it opens them up to fairies they should normally be checking and forcing you to run extra measures or just end up in an exploitable position.

Corv and Skarm only lose to encore in certain scenarios and I'm not trying to be inflammatory but it seems like you're being disingenuous in saying Tera Dragon is bad or ineffective, both of the weaknesses these mons have are resisted by dragon, and its hard to believe people would completely disregard this tera type just on the basis of it removing the fairy resist, especially when corv has a common teammates in Glowking.

And this is just disingenous and no offense, somewhat bad faith in tone. The point is the power making it highly difficult to switch into without fat resists.

I mean sure but you might have just missed the point, he's just pointing out Hatterenne is not the premier threat defensively. And I think its more bad faith (forgive me if I'm wrong) to divert from engaging with the argument using the fact that he used a troll calc to ignore the other point being made, which is that hatterenne is used as an eject button pivot, allowing it to switch into strong mons which can kill Ogerpon.

With the exception of Serperior, they all drop to +2 attacks so no.

If neither side is willing to give up whether or not ogerpon can set up chip free or not this will be a point of contention, so however that plays out will probably determine who is right. (This does not apply to Scizor who does not revenge kill Waterpon)

Dies to +2 and you don't know if it is superpower forcing you to make risky plays and predictions which is not very healthy.

If it is Superpower it's taking iron barbs chip as well as lowering its own defense leaving it even more prone to being revenge killed

Dies to +2 Superpower and can't even kill back. Plus is rain exclusive (no it's not good off of rain).

Yes! I'm not gonna try to argue it struggles to get +2 against rain.

Wellspring is able to open up for itself because of its power and coverage, which is why it's renowned as a premier progress maker in games. It doesn't have to SD but the threat of it only makes it worse to handle. Not sure what having no relevant status immunities has to do with anything since... what mon is able to land status on it that isn't blown up by a +2 move? It also does not really suffer from 4MSS and this is a phrase that gets thrown around too much. Just the threat of SD+Stabs+Superpower covers most of the tier, and the extra choice of moves is just icing on the cake which lets it handpick counterplay. And that is at its whim, making it something you often have to go pretty well out of your way to cover in the builder. Not running a move to beat stall doesn't keep a mon from being broken and if anything, if stall was the only defensive playstyle able to handle it that would be all the more reason to axe it.

Although it's questionable how good the coverage is, it certainly is powerful. It not having to SD is blatantly dismissive as you just used it being +2 automatically all the time as the main point of all of your arguments, if it wasn't +2 it would lose to half if not more of the mons mentioned so far. And again by dismissing the point about status you're implying it's already +2, usually the mons who have status moves like that would be some of the most likely candidate for Pon to set up on, but for an example of a mon which can cripple Wellspring while it's already somehow at +2 is serperior, which can glare or just leaf storm twice and take the kill. It's odd you say 4ms is just haphazardly thrown around as if it doesn't apply pretty well to Wellspring, as it has to choose between Superpower and taunt depending on what it wants to beat, Superpower can leave you more open to walls like pex, Tera dragon alo and dozo while taunt gives you a pretty bad weakness to any bulky-ish dragon or grass type such as Raging Bolt, dnite, and ferrothorn. It's not just a difference of stall and offense, it's likely just a easier example to give.

Kyurem drops to superpower, Kommo-O is fringe and not really good (plus drops to +2 superpower with a spike up anyways lol). Raging Bolt can switch into unboosted attacks once and then +2 superpower actually drops it (and hazards are a big limiting factor in using Bolt to check Wellspring as they rip into its longevity). Dragonite is the only one that doesn't lose to standard in most circumstancs, but it is a flawed pokemon and isn't the easiest to fit on teams (especially not bulkier structures). And of course Play Rough, as I said, exists and has to be respected which slashes all of these.

Yeah kyurem loses to (+2 btw) superpower pon. I agree kommo isn't that good but it's an insane reach to say it loses to pon because it dies after spikes AND pon gets up +2, if the ogerpon is superpower you can just admit it loses. Raging Bolt can switch into unboosted attacks? And then what? Pon is forced out and all your momentum is lost + Raging Bolt gets to do whatever it likes, at that point if you have no momentum it would be odd for you to try to argue as if ogerpon gets another free opening to not only come in, but also set up. I agree Dragonite is tough to fit on fat or balance teams, but that doesn't mean it isn't a threat, and yes play rough beats them (sorta : +2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 231-272 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), but play rough is pretty niche.

Lots of what I've said here is very scattered (not feeling that great today thanks to weather related sinus pressure) but once i'm done getting reqs I'll be sharing a more organized summary of my thoughts on Wellspring and why I intend to vote strongly for a ban on it.

Get well soon buster

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Yo, here to analyze some things about Waterpon from NDWC (shoutouts to Nashrock for keeping track of all the replays and usage / being a great tour host in general). currently WIP

link to all data referenced here

Waterpon Usage

Formatting

place in usage rankings | use percentage | win percentage

Week 1: #6 | 20.83% | 50%
Week 2: #16 | 10.87% | 40%
Week 3: #12 | 10.42% | 40%
Week 4: #3 | 23.91% | 63.64%

Check Usage

Stats

Week 1: #30 | 6.25% | 66.67%
Week 2: #8 | 15.22% | 0%
Week 3: #12 | 10.42% | 60%
Week 4: #15 | 10.87% | 40%

Stats

Week 1: #8 | 16.67% | 50%
Week 2: #3 | 23.91% | 63.64%
Week 3: #12 | 10.42% | 40%
Week 4: #15 | 10.87% | 40%

Replay Analysis

week 1

Week 1:
Lily's Waterpon: forces 43% onto Raging Bolt with Superpower, baits in Dragonium Z | comes in on a Slowbro and Power Whips, taking it out with FS | clicks Power Whip again on a Landorus-T (no Intimidate) and does 60%
medium-high impact | no Tera | no SD opportunities
checks on the opposing team: Raging Bolt (offensively), revenge-killed by Mega Lopunny

Oblivion Wing's Waterpon: gets baited into clicking Power Whip by a Tera Dragon Lando-T | dies immediately thereafter to a Zama CC
minimal impact | N/A (game was over by then anyways)
checks on the opposing team: Tera Dragon Lando, revenge killed by Zamazenta

Skyiew's Waterpon: never comes out (Gouging just swept Leni off the map)
zero impact
checks on the opposing team: Ferrothorn, revenge-killed by Mega Lopunny

Beleth's Waterpon: Encores a threatening Double Dance Landorus-T into Swords Dance before SD'ing itself, Encores IDBP Zama into Body Press while taking 76% | gets offensively checked by Serperior
medium impact | no Tera | 1 SD opportunity (turn 13) - no sweep
checks on the opposing team: Serperior (offensively), IDBP Zama (partially)

Pokemonrainer's Waterpon: whiffs a Power Whip on Turn 3, Teras to take out the Iron Hands, Taunts the Bronzong only to reveal Mental Herb | comes in vs. Primarina and can't quite kill Cresselia | takes out Hoopa-U at the bitter end
high impact | Terastallized | 2 SD opportunities (3 kills)
checks on the opposing team: legitimately nothing (Bronzong can take 1 hit? same with Cress?), revenged by Luna / Hands if TR is up

Fakee's Waterpon: sacrificed to Weavile without firing off an attack
zero impact
checks on the opposing team: none on surface-level, most likely Tera Dragon Garg/Pex + Toxic Spikes + revenge-killed by Zama / Weavile

Miyoko's Waterpon: Ivy Cudgels into Venusaur | SDs on a Darkrai switching out and claims Corv and Mega Venu after a small tussle | revenged by Darkrai
high impact | Terastallized | 1 SD opportunity (2 kills)
checks on the opposing team: Mega Venusaur, (potentially) Tera Skeledirge or Tera Corv if needed

yonmd's Waterpon: comes in on Turn 4, SDs predicting Mega Tyranitar to switch, it doesn't and Waterpon dies to Stone Edge + Sand
zero impact
checks on the opposing team: Rillaboom (offensively), Tera Glowking (potentially)

hidin's Waterpon: tries to beat what is presumably PhysDef Bulu but can't, even with Heavy Slam from Zama doing around 37%
minimal impact
checks on the opposing team: Tapu Bulu, Raging Bolt (offensively)

Autistic Soviet's Waterpon: comes in turn 23, before getting greedy and SDing on the Iron Crown Volt Switch into Zama which promptly kills it
zero impact
checks on opposing team: Kartana (offensively), Raging Bolt (potentially, forced to Tera)

Overall, Waterpon matched up into...
6 balance teams Miyoko, yonmd, Lily, Oblivion Wing, Skyiew, Fakee
2 HO teams Beleth, Pokemonrainer
2 offensive teams hidin, Autistic Soviet

What'd it do in those matchups?
2 times: It had zero impact because of an overzealous setup attempt.
2 times: It claimed 2 or more kills after Terastallizing and nabbing an SD.
2 times: It didn't claim 2 or more kills, but it did do major damage to opposing teams / disrupt them significantly.
2 times: It ran into checks to it and was removed without doing much of note.
1 time: It was never sent out because its teammate swept from lead.
1 time: It had zero impact because it was sacrificed to a foe.

What was commonly (confirmed in-game) used to check it or revenge-kill it? (underlined are offensive checks)
6 Grass-types, once each
Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu, Mega Venusaur, Serperior, Rillaboom, Kartana
3 instances of Raging Bolt as an offensive check
1 team had no direct (non-Tera) checks to it, and instead aimed to wear it down

week 2

Seth's Waterpon: never comes out (Darkrai + Steela won)
zero impact
checks on the opposing team: Dragonite, Archaludon

delemon's Waterpon: does 34% to Corviknight and 50% to Hatterene triggering its Eject Button, hits Garchomp for over 50% then kills it after Tera Dragon with a crit | Cudgels Polteageist bringing it down to its Sash, before dying to it
medium impact | no Tera | no SD opportunities
checks on opposing team: Brave Bird Corviknight (partially), revenge-killed by Sash Polteageist and Unburden Lucha

TDR's Waterpon: gets an SD on Lando-T, loses a speed tie to Mega Latios and dies after doing 72%
minimal impact
checks on the opposing team: Ferrothorn, Zamazenta, Mega Latios (partially)

Xurkiyee's Waterpon: comes in on a Gliscor before being U-turned on, forced out by Corv | comes back in on the Taunted Gliscor, Cudgels into Eject Button Pex and is sacrificed to Blacephalon
minimal impact
checks on the opposing team: Corviknight (partially, potentially), revenge-killed by Scarf Blacephalon

Overall, Waterpon matched up into...
2 HO teams Seth, delemon
2 balance teams TDR, Xurkiyee

What'd it do in those matchups?
2 times: It had minimal impact and got traded or sacrificed for damage on a foe.
1 time: It markedly weakened the opposing team and claimed a kill.
1 time: It never came out because its teammates won the game before it had to enter the field.

What was commonly used to check it?
1 team used both Dragonite and Archaludon, two sturdy checks to Waterpon.
2 teams used Brave Bird Corviknight to try to trade with it.
Overall, teams this week focused on limiting Waterpon by revenge-killing it or having a few offensive checks to it which worked, seeing as it had a mediocre impact in the three games it was brought out.

Week 3

Lameflame's Waterpon: gets up an SD on Alomomola as it gets Toxic'ed, does 70% to Corv and 36% to Alo with Cudgel before being forced out thanks to Toxic damage | comes in again on a Mega Medicham and Horn Leeches the Alomomola, before getting greedy going for an SD and being forced out by Tapu Koko | trades itself for 68% on Ursaluna
medium impact | no Tera | 1 SD opportunity (no kills)
checks on the opposing team: Glowking (partially), revenge-killed by Specs Koko

sasha's Waterpon: leads and does 40% to a defensive Zapdos before being forced out by Valiant | comes in on a Kommo-o and reveals U-turn | comes back in on the now weakened Kommo-o but fails the Encore | misses Power Whip on Alomomola and gets Toxic'ed before Encoring it into Toxic and switching out | comes in for the last time on Alomomola again but gets Protected on and fails to Encore it
minimal impact
checks on the opposing team: PhysDef Kommo-o

seth's Waterpon: comes in on a Pex setting Toxic Spikes before SD'ing and baiting Tera Dragon on Dondozo | comes in on Glisc but mispredicts and doesn't get the double | comes in again on Glisc but fails to get the double again | for the third time, comes in on Glisc and does 22% to Pex with Cudgel and 17% to Dozo with Power Whip | finally gets the double on Pex | comes in on Blissey but fails the double | gets sacrificed to Clod
medium impact | no Tera | 1 SD opportunity (no kills)
checks on the opposing team: Tera Dragon Dondozo, Iron Defense Corv (partially)

DYM's Waterpon: leads vs. opposing Waterpon, goes to Aegislash to tank the Horn Leech | gets in on a well-timed double switch on Heatran | overpredicts and goes to Gliscor against the opposing Waterpon switching in | gets brought in by Gliscor on Lando-T and Tera's to do 57% to Glowking before switching out | the exact same sequence occurs, only this time Waterpon actually removes the Glowking with a crit | Taunts the Zamazenta as it gets up an Iron Defense, goes to Glowking | doesn't come out again as DYM wins
high impact | Terastallized | no SD opportunities (1 kill)
checks on the opposing team: Zamazenta (partially) [very weak to Waterpon, apparently]

Taka's Waterpon: leads vs. opposing Waterpon, does 17% to Aegislash with a Horn Leech before getting doubled on | gets doubled in on Gliscor and tries to get up an SD but gets U-turned on and killed by Pursuit from Weavile
zero-minimal impact
checks on the opposing team: Raging Bolt (potentially), Aegislash (partially), revenge-killed by Weavile

Overall, Waterpon matched up into...
4 balance teams Lameflame, sasha, DYM, Taka
1 stall team seth

What did it do in those matchups?
2 games: It had very minimal impact due to being constantly forced out or getting too greedy with an attempt to SD.
2 games: It had a decent impact, either by doing decent damage throughout the game to the opponent or forcing a Tera.
1 game: It played a key role in the game by removing a key defensive piece and curtailing IDBP Zama to be dealt with.

What was commonly used to check it?
1 team featured Physically Defensive Kommo-o against a non-Play Rough Ogerpon, meaning that it was hard-countered in that MU.
2 teams didn't really have a sturdy Waterpon answer; coincidentally, those were the teams that Wellspring did the best against.

Week 4

entrocefalo's Waterpon: comes in on a Lando EQ, forces it out into a weakened Zamazenta that gets 2HKOed | gets promptly revenge-killed by Scarf Lando
minimal impact
checks on the opposing team:

Mada's Waterpon: comes in on Lando-T and clicks Cudgel as Lando Tera Normals and uses Explosion, killing it instantly
medium impact | no Tera | no SD opportunities
checks on the opposing team: none, although everything revenges it under Webs

Leni's Waterpon: doubles in on the Pelipper and clicks Horn Leech as it U-turns and goes to Torn, forcing Waterpon out | gets doubled on by Torn-T, Teras but dies to a crit Hurricane
minimal impact
checks on the opposing team: Archaludon, revenge-killed by Weav and Torn

Fakee's Waterpon: tries to come in on Urshifu-R but gets U-turned on and forced out by Lele | tries to read it again only to get hit by Ice Spinner and forced out again | comes in on Ting-Lu via Whirlwind and gets to +2 on the Venusaur, Urshifu tanks the Cudgel and kills it with U-turn
minimal impact
checks on the opposing team: Mega Venusaur, revenge-killed by Urshifu-R

Tempo de anguria's Waterpon: comes in on Treads and hits Archaludon with a rain-boosted Cudgel, then switches out | comes in to take out a basically-dead Archaludon and gets forced out by Pelipper | comes back in on Treads via Chilly Reception, Pelipper comes in on an Ivy Cudgel | Pon Teras and hits it with another Cudgel as it gets U-turned on, and Barraskewda forces it out | comes in via Chilly Reception on Manaphy, takes it out with a crit Horn Leech as well as a critically low Pelipper | tanks CC from Barraskewda to win the game
high impact | Terastallized | no SD opportunities (4 kills)
checks on opposing team: Archaludon

autumn's Waterpon: comes in on Ferrothorn but takes Stealth Rock + a crit Knock Off leaving it at 59%, SDs on the Latios switch but loses the speed tie and dies to a Luster Purge
zero impact
checks on the opposing team: Mega Latios (partially), Zamazenta (partially)

Evie's Waterpon: leads and gets an SD on the Gliscor going to Pex, but misses the Power Whip and gets Hazed | SDs again as the Pex sets Toxic Spikes, hits the Power Whip this time and KOs Pex | baits the Tera Dragon from Dozo as it switches out | comes in on Gliscor, doubles to Lele on Dozo | comes in again on Glisc and forces it out into Dozo as Waterpon clicks Superpower to do 20% | comes in on Clodsire and goes to Mega Mawile on Dozo
high impact | no Tera | 2 SD opportunities (1 kill)

Pokemonrainer's Waterpon: sacrificed to an unstoppable +1 Kartana
zero impact
checks on opposing team: Raging Bolt (partially), revenge-killed by Scarf Kartana

Lana's Waterpon: leads into Glowking and goes to Ribombee to set webs | does 25% to Ferro and never comes out again (Darkrai swept)
minimal impact
checks on opposing team: Ferrothorn, Tera Moltres (potentially)

peap's Waterpon: comes in on Volcanion, taking 62% from Flamethrower | clicks Knock Off on Zama and gets forced out, never to come in again
minimal impact
checks on opposing team: Zamazenta



Overall, Waterpon matched up into...
2 balance teams entrocefalo, Fakee
2 offensive teams Leni, Tempo de anguria
1 HO team Mada

 

[1yr]

Hey there

This isn't really relevant as there is all of two relevant scald users in the tier and one of those loses to Wellspring irrespective of its ability. Toxapex meanwhile has to remain above 80% or it gets OHKOd by a +2 Power Whip so that's shaky too. Regarding Rilla and Bolt, the former is just a niche mon at best and not very good outside using GG to check Wellspring and even then it requires band to at all threaten it (or anything else for that matter). Bolt meanwhile, well...

I would believe is pretty relevant because pon is losing its ability to switch in to those scald users. You brought up Pex as an example, Pex is notorious for running Tera dragon and may easily use that to its advantage to burn and cripple Ogerpon and it’s still relatively easy to keep Pex above 80 percent thanks to it running boots+its regenerator

252+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 182-216 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I don’t see how that’s relevant whatsoever considering bolt kills with z
:ragin:
252+ SpA Raging Bolt Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 375-442 (124.5 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

or thunder bolt plus thunderclap
252+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 174-205 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 135-160 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

it can literally combo like any of its moves together and kill it because oferpon loses to bolt in every situation ever unless they’re running play rough which they need +2 to kill (play rough is hardly ran and if it’s run u get walked by ferrothorn and tons of other mons which balances it beating bolt out)

So you're not guaranteed. Plus in games with either, you don't have to tera unless your opponent is stacking multiple fat resists to it. But that gets into the problem of it being so centralizing in the builder. Also where is it taking chip while setting up? It chases out mons who are forced to manually switch out.

I would love to see some examples for this and also let’s please not to this raging bolt stuff again because we both know raging bolt beats it 9/10 times and pls show me which mons it forces out because most the things it’s forcing out can at least status it or chip it and there are many sweepers who force out mons I think this shouldn’t be an argument for why something should be banned haha

Dondozo is forced to run Body Press which limits its effectiveness as you can't run curse+resttalk, plus Don is highly vulnerable to encore sets. Play Rough is not as common as other sets but it's a fairly big part of its kit and still run at high level. It being less common does not mean you should not consider it or respect it, that's just foolish. You also cannot "predict" play rough and go into something like Ferrothorn because you don't predict the 4th slot on Wellspring. It's a pokemon that you CANNOT risklessly scout. Enjoy switching in Ferro just to get Superpowered and now both it and its teammates are free to run train on your team. (btw less relevant but no Raging Bolt does not give unhealthy 50/50s stop).

How is it vulnerable to encore if you just Tera body press. I don’t believe this limits its effectiveness especially on stall to where its purpose is literally just stopping sweepers. How is play rough ran at a high level? As a player who has been consistently in top 20 on nd ladder I have probably come across play rough wellspring a good 3 times out of the hundreds of games and as someone who is on a wcop team and has watched the majority of the matches that have taken place I don’t think I have seen it there either, this is a baseless claim so unless you can find evidence of it being used at a high level I’m going to dismiss it. I don’t understand what u mean by respecting pokemon moves LMFAO if it’s not run it’s not run simple as that. Raging bolts unhealthy 50/50/ lie with its z move sets and whether or not it’s going to thunderclap or setup I don’t think these 50/50s matter in terms of sweepers that’s just what come with Ogerpons 4 move syndrome and with every other 4 move syndrome Mon.

Corv and Skarm lose to Encore and also are forced to run Tera Dragon which is a mediocre choice on them as it opens them up to fairies they should normally be checking and forcing you to run extra measures or just end up in an exploitable position.

this is kinda wild, tera dragon covers both of their weaknesses while also beating up half of the meta lol, I don’t see what opening yourself up to fairy types has anything to do with it because there aren’t any viable physical fairy types and the only one Corv actually walled was lele who doesn’t have a crazy amount of speed while Corv is run with slowking g a lot who walls all of those pesky luh fairy types

And this is just disingenous and no offense, somewhat bad faith in tone. The point is the power making it highly difficult to switch into without fat resists.

this was more of a joke but how is it disingenuous? I’m using a calc to show how horrible that Mon is defensively plus it always runs eject button so if you’re clicking cudgel it’s just getting free pivot out into something that can force it out or beat it, and if you stay in you get nuzzled.

With the exception of Serperior, they all drop to +2 attacks so no.

These claims are baseless please provide actual calcs that prove this instead of just going “no”

Dies to +2 and you don't know if it is superpower forcing you to make risky plays and predictions which is not very healthy.

kyurem can easily just switch in on setup and if its scarf click freeze dry and thrash Tf out of it and idr get the term 50/50 here lol like sure it might have superpower but whether or not it has that is by no means a 50/50.

Dies to +2 and you don't know if it is superpower forcing you to make risky plays and predictions which is not very healthy.

Can you elaborate on how you think it’s unhealthy? You’re starting to overuse the word and it’s becoming ambiguous with the way you’re throwing it around.

Dies to +2 Superpower and can't even kill back. Plus is rain exclusive (no it's not good off of rain).

not a single soul said it was good off of rain brother idk where you’re pulling that. It easily Tera’s and chips it if it wants and I don’t think an archaludon is coming in on a +2 Oger if it knows it has superpower (you scout with ferrothorn first)

Wellspring is able to open up for itself because of its power and coverage, which is why it's renowned as a premier progress maker in games. It doesn't have to SD but the threat of it only makes it worse to handle. Not sure what having no relevant status immunities has to do with anything since... what mon is able to land status on it that isn't blown up by a +2 move? It also does not really suffer from 4MSS and this is a phrase that gets thrown around too much. Just the threat of SD+Stabs+Superpower covers most of the tier, and the extra choice of moves is just icing on the cake which lets it handpick counterplay. And that is at its whim, making it something you often have to go pretty well out of your way to cover in the builder. Not running a move to beat stall doesn't keep a mon from being broken and if anything, if stall was the only defensive playstyle able to handle it that would be all the more reason to axe it.

emolgang explained this perfectly and anything I would say would just be me repeating him so I’ll just appeal to what he said because he already refuted it.

Kyurem drops to superpower, Kommo-O is fringe and not really good (plus drops to +2 superpower with a spike up anyways lol). Raging Bolt can switch into unboosted attacks once and then +2 superpower actually drops it (and hazards are a big limiting factor in using Bolt to check Wellspring as they rip into its longevity). Dragonite is the only one that doesn't lose to standard in most circumstancs, but it is a flawed pokemon and isn't the easiest to fit on teams (especially not bulkier structures). And of course Play Rough, as I said, exists and has to be respected which slashes all of these.

kyurem can outspeed with scarf and ohko plus Oger doesn’t always run superpower. In terms of raging bolt it gets free wallbreaking if you try to hit it with cudgel or just stacks up calm minds and fries your team, and the same thing about longevity may be said about Ogerpon to where it tries to switch into a bunch of water moves but if hazards is up your getting chipped more and more and raging bolt has the ability to run boots which is a set and like u said u should respect all sets and I have unironically seen more boots bolts than play rough Ogerpons so if you’re proposing to respect that I’ll expect you respect this set aswell. In terms of dragonite idk what you’re talking about this mon is amazing and overhated and is amazing for bulkier teams because it gets free switches because of multi scale and I think any average builder can slap it on your average team and of course your best friend play rough. It’s not ran and it sucks and I’m not gonna respect it. PlayroughK. Also

Ogerpon when it doesn’t kill kommo and it z moves killing it and reverse sweeps:

Lots of what I've said here is very scattered (not feeling that great today thanks to weather related sinus pressure) but once i'm done getting reqs I'll be sharing a more organized summary of my thoughts on Wellspring and why I intend to vote strongly for a ban on it.

Hope you feel better, God bless. #jesusisking #freemyboyogerponheaintdonothin #adriyunisawesome #iloveadriyun #adriyun4council #ilovesetset #emolgangforlife
(I blame any errors on my laggy ass phone)

 

[about15guys]

I don’t see how that’s relevant whatsoever considering bolt kills with z
:ragin:
252+ SpA Raging Bolt Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 375-442 (124.5 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

or thunder bolt plus thunderclap
252+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 174-205 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 135-160 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

If ogerpon teras all this goes out the window immediately, as drag-z isnt gonna kill you and +2 superpower is doing 74% on a minroll. If your raging bolt has switched into rocks once prior or took a single hit from anything it's just going to die, and all you'll have to show for it is 50%

kyurem can outspeed with scarf and ohko plus Oger doesn’t always run superpower. In terms of raging bolt it gets free wallbreaking if you try to hit it with cudgel or just stacks up calm minds and fries your team, and the same thing about longevity may be said about Ogerpon to where it tries to switch into a bunch of water moves but if hazards is up your getting chipped more and more and raging bolt has the ability to run boots which is a set and like u said u should respect all sets and I have unironically seen more boots bolts than play rough Ogerpons so if you’re proposing to respect that I’ll expect you respect this set aswell. In terms of dragonite idk what you’re talking about this mon is amazing and overhated and is amazing for bulkier teams because it gets free switches because of multi scale and I think any average builder can slap it on your average team and of course your best friend play rough. It’s not ran and it sucks and I’m not gonna respect it. PlayroughK. Also

I'm a little confused by this, scarf kyurem is already super fake, super bad and super fishy so I don't see how its relevant to the conversation, this is also just ignoring the fact that ogerpon can tera on its face and suddenly you've got a 50% roll to ohko regardless of coverage on top of doing 60% on a maxroll back. Even crazier though is how Kyurem loses to both of Ogerpon's standard coverage moves

i'll make an actual post later with my thoughts, just let it be known i want this shit gone so i can run tikipon in peace

 

[1yr]

Dattebayo!

If ogerpon teras all this goes out the window immediately, as drag-z isnt gonna kill you and +2 superpower is doing 74% on a minroll. If your raging bolt has switched into rocks once prior or took a single hit from anything it's just going to die, and all you'll have to show for it is 50%

Thunderbolt + thunderclap beats up Tera badly there’s no need to always resort to the z it was just one of many examples but still u kill after z plus thunderclap if that helps

I believe as long as you preserve your bolt well enough and save it for Ogerpon as you would save your check for any other sweeper you would be fine and if it starts trying to chip raging bolt by itself, bolt also gets free wallbreaking every time pon comes in and usually just takes a kill in most cases.

I'm a little confused by this, scarf kyurem is already super fake, super bad and super fishy so I don't see how its relevant to the conversation, this is also just ignoring the fact that ogerpon can tera on its face and suddenly you've got a 50% roll to ohko regardless of coverage on top of doing 60% on a maxroll back. Even crazier though is how Kyurem loses to both of Ogerpon's standard coverage moves

yeah so this was more of a counter argument to play rough because funny enough scarf kyurem gets more usage than play rough and forces Oger to either Tera or get caugh off guard while it baits a free superpower
#stopogerponhate #letallogerponsliveinharmony #iloveadriyun #adriyunisawesome #playroughK #freemahboyogerponheaintdonothin

 

[Moyashi]

I agree with the thing about scald users but I don't know why you went on about the Rillaboom thing, Rillaboom is niche sure but it's not like it's obsolete, and I don't see a purpose in talking about it having to run CB as if it doesn't already run it on almost every team that uses Rilla.

Not obsolete no, but difficult to build a consistent team with due to it struggling with some pretty big flaws (prediction heavy, momentum drain if predicting wrong which can happen often due to many teams having multiple checks to it, very easy to wear down), and thus having to rely on it can restrict teambuilding.

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Superpower vs. 76 HP / 48 Def Raging Bolt: 304-358 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even if the Waterpon doesn't Tera it loses to Raging Bolt still:

+2 252+ SpA Raging Bolt Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 375-442 (124.5 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rillaboom doesn't win the 1v1 if the Ogerpon is non Tera +2, but it creates a good opening to revenge kill. Cam you elaborate on the mons waterpon is setting up on for free? To my understanding most if not all the mons that Ogerpon tends to set up on have some way of chipping it.

I'm saying that Bolt which is used to check it by switching into it, can only take one unboosted hit from Wellspring if attacked upon switching into it. But also Raging Bolt rarely is at full as is used to check other stuff too, which means that unless you can keep it in pristine shape, you won't realistically take a +2 Superpower with rocks up. Not sure how Bolt is at +2 in your calc vs Wellspring. As for set up, all of Alomomola, Landorus-T, Mega Tyranitar, Gliscor, Heatran, Garganacl, unboosted Volcarona and Rotom-W are all room for set up. They all have to run away unless they choose to tera and stay in, which is a big commit that also can open up things for Wellspring's teammates.

Encore can hardly be considered a threat to Tera Dragon Dondozo unless the ogerpon is switching into a dozo which is already out and didnt click body press (which is not common), otherwise the dozo just has to tera Dragon body press as soon as it can. Play Rough will not save ogerpon from the endless wrath of Dozo either

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Tera Dragon Dondozo: 146-174 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 5.8% chance to 3HKO

252+ Def Tera Dragon Dondozo Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I agree with not being able to predict play rough because honestly the move is pretty niche and less favorable to superpower and taunt. (Btw less relevant but Raging Bolt absolutely creates 50/50s with its duel STAB Coverage and access to strong priority leading your opponent to a guessing game if they don't have ferro or ting lu which gets chipped down.

Don isn't exactly clicking body press all the time. But also anything that isn't body press is free encore food. But also Don is forced to run Body Press which like I said, greatly limits it by preventing resttalk sets which hamper longevity significantly. (Bolt relies on a priority move with an immunity and has no coverage beyond stabs, plus grounds like Gliscor and Lando check it well. It also has no longevity and vulnerably to faster threats when not getting boosting chances which isn't terribly hard to deny).

Corv and Skarm only lose to encore in certain scenarios and I'm not trying to be inflammatory but it seems like you're being disingenuous in saying Tera Dragon is bad or ineffective, both of the weaknesses these mons have are resisted by dragon, and its hard to believe people would completely disregard this tera type just on the basis of it removing the fairy resist, especially when corv has a common teammates in Glowking.

It is bad because while you resist steel's weaknesses, you're now weak to types that you put your steel on a team to check (fairies). You're also losing a key ground immunity and invite earthquake spam potentially. Glowking is not enough of a back up by itself when said fairies have methods to break it (specs Lele blows it away and Iron Valiant beats Glowking with CM sets). Also no Corv and Skarm really lose to Encore often. Clicking any non attack move gives free invite for Encore.

If it is Superpower it's taking iron barbs chip as well as lowering its own defense leaving it even more prone to being revenge killed

Wellspring can just switch and come in again later. One iron barbs round of chip is not nearly enough let alone noteworthy.

Although it's questionable how good the coverage is, it certainly is powerful. It not having to SD is blatantly dismissive as you just used it being +2 automatically all the time as the main point of all of your arguments, if it wasn't +2 it would lose to half if not more of the mons mentioned so far. And again by dismissing the point about status you're implying it's already +2, usually the mons who have status moves like that would be some of the most likely candidate for Pon to set up on, but for an example of a mon which can cripple Wellspring while it's already somehow at +2 is serperior, which can glare or just leaf storm twice and take the kill. It's odd you say 4ms is just haphazardly thrown around as if it doesn't apply pretty well to Wellspring, as it has to choose between Superpower and taunt depending on what it wants to beat, Superpower can leave you more open to walls like pex, Tera dragon alo and dozo while taunt gives you a pretty bad weakness to any bulky-ish dragon or grass type such as Raging Bolt, dnite, and ferrothorn. It's not just a difference of stall and offense, it's likely just a easier example to give.

How is it dismissive? It's very common for Wellspring to wallbreak without SDing early so it can snipe pokemon later. Most of the things mentioned as "checks" have no innate recovery so each time they take even unboosted hits they're on a timer and often it only takes one or two unboosted hits to claim them with +2 attacks next time they switch in. The point is that it can wallbreak early and then push past them a little later with boosted attacks. Also what? Mons that Pon would set up on that also pack status are switching out, not risking death. The only time you see mons like that stay in and attempt chip/status are players making super risky plays (often when they have little choice). Serperior isn't a set up target and Pon usually just clicks buttons as it switches in to break it down and KO it. It doesn't really need taunt, the move just makes it easier to break down and disrupt teams. Superpower doesn't leave you weak to Pex? +2 Power Whip drops it if Pex falls to 80% (or 90% and switching in with rocks up). Tera Dragon Mola is entirely ran because of it, while Don is stall exclusive. 4MSS implies that it WANTS more moves than it can fit, but it doesn't really WANT more than stabs+SD. 4th moveslot just enables it to handpick what it beats.

In terms of dragonite idk what you’re talking about this mon is amazing and overhated and is amazing for bulkier teams because it gets free switches because of multi scale and I think any average builder can slap it on your average team and of course your best friend play rough. It’s not ran and it sucks and I’m not gonna respect it. PlayroughK. Also

I mean not respecting PR because YOU don't see it is a choice. And Dragonite just isn't a great pick. DD+3 Attacks has far more limited defensive utility which hurts its ability to check what you'd want it to check, while DD+Roost+2 Attacks has massive coverage issues that it can't ever fix. You have one free slot after ESpeed, and there is no good choice for that slot. Ice Punch is necessary for Lando and Gliscor and even Garchomp and Tusk. Fire Punch helps not be walled by Ferrothorn and Corv/Skarm, Earthquake is necessary so Pex can't toxic/haze stall you and even Galarian Slowking heavily irritates if you lack EQ. Thunderpunch is necessary for Mola/Slowbro.

These claims are baseless please provide actual calcs that prove this instead of just going “no”

All three of MMaw, Zapdos and MSciz cannot revenge kill it (ohkod at +2 and slower).

 

[1yr]

HI MOYASHI

I mean not respecting PR because YOU don't see it is a choice. And Dragonite just isn't a great pick. DD+3 Attacks has far more limited defensive utility which hurts its ability to check what you'd want it to check, while DD+Roost+2 Attacks has massive coverage issues that it can't ever fix. You have one free slot after ESpeed, and there is no good choice for that slot. Ice Punch is necessary for Lando and Gliscor and even Garchomp and Tusk. Fire Punch helps not be walled by Ferrothorn and Corv/Skarm, Earthquake is necessary so Pex can't toxic/haze stall you and even Galarian Slowking heavily irritates if you lack EQ. Thunderpunch is necessary for Mola/Slowbro.

where did i say that lol. I acknowledged it was a set but the usage sets it back from being in the conversation of whether or not it should be banned or not because of how uncommon it is pal. Just because it doesnt extort its ability to the fullest of its potential doesn't at all mean its bad defensively, it still has dragon flying typing which is amazing and walls much of the meta. Paired with multiscale it can scout very easily against different pokemon and tank various attacks while also revenge killing very well with extreme speed. it doesnt really need ice punch for lando and garchomp when it can run outrage and nuke them. Slowking gets popped by outrage and substitute is also a set that shits on lando mola slowbro ect. This overall makes dragonite a very hard pokemon to beat and its defensive capabilities arent lacked via the reasons mentioned!

All three of MMaw, Zapdos and MSciz cannot revenge kill it (ohkod at +2 and slower).

i was saying it revenge kills based upon the hypothetical which was proposed (that its a base tera waterpon with no boosts). If waterpon is chipped which is fairly easy zapdos volt switches on the cranium and revenge kills (if chipped enough). I think you're misinterpreting my argument because im not arguing from a standpoint of ogerpon being 100 hp which was mentioned a multitude of times when i had initially responded to the post. Anywho to carry on you're right about scizor with revenge killing i was taking that from a standpoint of it not being tera but obviously it probably cant beat the tera one unless its severely chipped. Mawile on the other hand tanks a cudgel then play roughs and wins the 1v1.

Hey there

also theres still unrefuted points in here, If u wanna drop them lmk!

#adriyun4president #iloveadriyun #freemahboywaterponheaintdonothin #emolgang #nocutsnobuttsnococonuts

 

[Emolgang]

I'm saying that Bolt which is used to check it by switching into it, can only take one unboosted hit from Wellspring if attacked upon switching into it. But also Raging Bolt rarely is at full as is used to check other stuff too, which means that unless you can keep it in pristine shape, you won't realistically take a +2 Superpower with rocks up. Not sure how Bolt is at +2 in your calc vs Wellspring. As for set up, all of Alomomola, Landorus-T, Mega Tyranitar, Gliscor, Heatran, Garganacl, unboosted Volcarona and Rotom-W are all room for set up. They all have to run away unless they choose to tera and stay in, which is a big commit that also can open up things for Wellspring's teammates.

It's a typo, Bolt isn't actually at +2 in that calc, it still kills at +/-0. I still think it's odd you expect for Raging Bolt to be chipped and Ogerpon to manage to get +2 at the same time, even if you want to argue its easy to get Pon +2, I don't think it's reasonable to keep adding on things like chip which aren't even that common on a cleaner like Bolt. All of the mons you named have the ability to chip Ogerpon when it sets up, and most of these mons have access to tera types which stop Ogerpon either way.

It is bad because while you resist steel's weaknesses, you're now weak to types that you put your steel on a team to check (fairies). You're also losing a key ground immunity and invite earthquake spam potentially. Glowking is not enough of a back up by itself when said fairies have methods to break it (specs Lele blows it away and Iron Valiant beats Glowking with CM sets). Also no Corv and Skarm really lose to Encore often. Clicking any non attack move gives free invite for Encore.

Corv losing its steel resists is an entirely team-related detriment, once Wellspring is at +2 its safe to assume the game isnt in a stage where youre all that worried about corv's specific typing, also iron valiant with CM can't beat t wave slowking, and tapu lele doesnt exactly beat glowking either, it psyshocks which does a lot of damage but then yiu hust switch out with regenerator into a strong phys resist or any dark type. The only pokemon right now which is spamming earthquake is Garchomp which is usually used early game as a lead mon. Encore can be annoying for corv and skarm but in skarms case you just to switch out, come back in and whirlwind, as for corv it's not so cut and dry but there are ways similar to skarm in which it can combat it.

Wellspring can just switch and come in again later. One iron barbs round of chip is not nearly enough let alone noteworthy.

Fair enough about switching out, but as shown in the defensive calcs of the original post, the iron barbs chip can be a huge difference maker, especially with rocks up.

How is it dismissive? It's very common for Wellspring to wallbreak without SDing early so it can snipe pokemon later. Most of the things mentioned as "checks" have no innate recovery so each time they take even unboosted hits they're on a timer and often it only takes one or two unboosted hits to claim them with +2 attacks next time they switch in. The point is that it can wallbreak early and then push past them a little later with boosted attacks. Also what? Mons that Pon would set up on that also pack status are switching out, not risking death. The only time you see mons like that stay in and attempt chip/status are players making super risky plays (often when they have little choice). Serperior isn't a set up target and Pon usually just clicks buttons as it switches in to break it down and KO it. It doesn't really need taunt, the move just makes it easier to break down and disrupt teams. Superpower doesn't leave you weak to Pex? +2 Power Whip drops it if Pex falls to 80% (or 90% and switching in with rocks up). Tera Dragon Mola is entirely ran because of it, while Don is stall exclusive. 4MSS implies that it WANTS more moves than it can fit, but it doesn't really WANT more than stabs+SD. 4th moveslot just enables it to handpick what it beats.

I don't know how you expect me to engage with ambiguous hypotheticals of how ogerpon comes in and wallbreaks early, this is a completely moot argument with no actual substance, especially since in every calc or argument you gave you put Ogerpon at +2. Pex although it doesn't win the 1v1 if you're already at +2 leaves the user with the opportunity to click haze and then switch into a mon capable of beating pon in a 1v1. I also disagree with the notion that Waterpon is completely complacent with being walled by any bulky grass or dragon type.

 

[Moyashi]

where did i say that lol. I acknowledged it was a set but the usage sets it back from being in the conversation of whether or not it should be banned or not because of how uncommon it is pal. Just because it doesnt extort its ability to the fullest of its potential doesn't at all mean its bad defensively, it still has dragon flying typing which is amazing and walls much of the meta. Paired with multiscale it can scout very easily against different pokemon and tank various attacks while also revenge killing very well with extreme speed. it doesnt really need ice punch for lando and garchomp when it can run outrage and nuke them. Slowking gets popped by outrage and substitute is also a set that shits on lando mola slowbro ect. This overall makes dragonite a very hard pokemon to beat and its defensive capabilities arent lacked via the reasons mentioned!

Being less common doesn't mean you respect it less. A good player respects a top threat's possibilities, especially one as polarizing as Wellspring. Dragonite's problem is that scouting costs multiscale, and without roost you can't do this more than once or twice. With roost, you lack a lot of offensive pressure. Outrage is a bad pick outside of Z sets which are offense sets only (and largely HO), as there are far too many tera fairies and general fairies in the tier which makes it extremely fishy. Substitute just further compounds on the moveslot problem for Dragonite. It's not a hard pokemon to beat at all.

Mawile on the other hand tanks a cudgel then play roughs and wins the 1v1.

Errr... it barely takes un tera'd unboosted cudgels. Tera straight OHKOs from full without a boost.

It's a typo, Bolt isn't actually at +2 in that calc, it still kills at +/-0. I still think it's odd you expect for Raging Bolt to be chipped and Ogerpon to manage to get +2 at the same time, even if you want to argue its easy to get Pon +2, I don't think it's reasonable to keep adding on things like chip which aren't even that common on a cleaner like Bolt. All of the mons you named have the ability to chip Ogerpon when it sets up, and most of these mons have access to tera types which stop Ogerpon either way.

Raging Bolt CAN clean but it's also a wallbreaker and often relied on for some kind of defensive use, or just switching in to wallbreak. How are the mons I mentioned able to chip it? They ALL realistically switching out. Alomomola, Landorus-T, Mega Tyranitar, Gliscor, Heatran, Garganacl, unboosted Volcarona and Rotom-W, they all don't want to take huge damage or a KO when they also are relied on to check other stuff. How are they chipping it? (well sand from MTar aside). You say tera types but that just shows the issue of having to burn tera to reactively handle it in those contexts.

Corv losing its steel resists is an entirely team-related detriment, once Wellspring is at +2 its safe to assume the game isnt in a stage where youre all that worried about corv's specific typing, also iron valiant with CM can't beat t wave slowking, and tapu lele doesnt exactly beat glowking either, it psyshocks which does a lot of damage but then yiu hust switch out with regenerator into a strong phys resist or any dark type. The only pokemon right now which is spamming earthquake is Garchomp which is usually used early game as a lead mon. Encore can be annoying for corv and skarm but in skarms case you just to switch out, come back in and whirlwind, as for corv it's not so cut and dry but there are ways similar to skarm in which it can combat it.

I wouldn't agree about the Corv example but hey. CM Valiant can and does run Tera Electric to shut down TWave. For Lele, this depends on you having all of Corv/Skarm with dragon + Glowking + fat phys mon or darktype which is a not insignificant amount of team realistate for two mons. The issue is Wellspring placing a ton of burden on building that makes it harder to account for the other big threats of the tier, pidgeonholing aspects of teambuilding. Also Skarm is rarely running Whirlwind pretty sure.

I don't know how you expect me to engage with ambiguous hypotheticals of how ogerpon comes in and wallbreaks early, this is a completely moot argument with no actual substance, especially since in every calc or argument you gave you put Ogerpon at +2. Pex although it doesn't win the 1v1 if you're already at +2 leaves the user with the opportunity to click haze and then switch into a mon capable of beating pon in a 1v1. I also disagree with the notion that Waterpon is completely complacent with being walled by any bulky grass or dragon type.

The point of the calcs is to show why it's so polarizing and restricting that people have to run such specific builds for it so it can't easily get those chances. The calcs are there because the threat is constantly there and you have to respect it which is what causes that pressure in the builder.

Like I said, Pex has to remain healthy so it doesn't die to +2 Power Whip. Also the only good bulky grass is Ferro as the rest are fringe/bad options that solely see use because of Wellspring. Majority of dragons are either shaky into standard SD sets or just lose to Play Rough, which highlights how there aren't enough overlapping counterplay to its major sets which makes one go out of the way to answer it in builder.

 

[1yr]

hi moyashi

Being less common doesn't mean you respect it less. A good player respects a top threat's possibilities, especially one as polarizing as Wellspring. Dragonite's problem is that scouting costs multiscale, and without roost you can't do this more than once or twice. With roost, you lack a lot of offensive pressure. Outrage is a bad pick outside of Z sets which are offense sets only (and largely HO), as there are far too many tera fairies and general fairies in the tier which makes it extremely fishy. Substitute just further compounds on the moveslot problem for Dragonite. It's not a hard pokemon to beat at all.

your analogy regarding good players sounds very subjective and opinionated. respecting a pokemon move doesnt matter blud, if we are talking about what most commonly check waterpon we're obviously going to appeal to whats most commonly used. All you did here was repeat yourself lol please provide a counter argument!

Errr... it barely takes un tera'd unboosted cudgels. Tera straight OHKOs from full without a boost.

-1 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 136-162 (50.3 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 204-242 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Criminal Offensive Sideye XDDDDD
on another note u were very far off even without the -1 intimidate u still get fried

moyashi u are still yet to reply to half of the things stated bud (this is not looking good for you)

#adriyunisawesome #iloveadriyun #freeogerponhearthflamenext

 

[Emolgang]

Raging Bolt CAN clean but it's also a wallbreaker and often relied on for some kind of defensive use, or just switching in to wallbreak. How are the mons I mentioned able to chip it? They ALL realistically switching out. Alomomola, Landorus-T, Mega Tyranitar, Gliscor, Heatran, Garganacl, unboosted Volcarona and Rotom-W, they all don't want to take huge damage or a KO when they also are relied on to check other stuff. How are they chipping it? (well sand from MTar aside). You say tera types but that just shows the issue of having to burn tera to reactively handle it in those contexts.

I think its safe to say most of the mons you mentioned would prefer doing a chunk of their opponent's sweepers HP than reserve their own. A lot of sweepers require you to burn a tera as well, that's half the reason that mechanic is in the game.

I wouldn't agree about the Corv example but hey. CM Valiant can and does run Tera Electric to shut down TWave. For Lele, this depends on you having all of Corv/Skarm with dragon + Glowking + fat phys mon or darktype which is a not insignificant amount of team realistate for two mons. The issue is Wellspring placing a ton of burden on building that makes it harder to account for the other big threats of the tier, pidgeonholing aspects of teambuilding. Also Skarm is rarely running Whirlwind pretty sure.

If iron valiant runs tera electric then I don't understand why you brought up corv as an ival wall in the first place, you just completely invalidated your own argument. Wellspring is really not that restrictive in the grand scheme of the meta, only as much as any other big threat at least, having to run a tera Dragon or bulky grass type and a mon that is above 110 speed (you should have one anyway) is not unreasonable. Also skarm runs Whirlwind 40% percent of the time.

The point of the calcs is to show why it's so polarizing and restricting that people have to run such specific builds for it so it can't easily get those chances. The calcs are there because the threat is constantly there and you have to respect it which is what causes that pressure in the builder.

Yes, every big threat in the meta causes pressure on the builder, that is how building works.

Like I said, Pex has to remain healthy so it doesn't die to +2 Power Whip. Also the only good bulky grass is Ferro as the rest are fringe/bad options that solely see use because of Wellspring. Majority of dragons are either shaky into standard SD sets or just lose to Play Rough, which highlights how there aren't enough overlapping counterplay to its major sets which makes one go out of the way to answer it in builder.

There are plenty of fine grass types that would see use whether or not Wellspring was in the meta, they are niche but definetly not bad, a few examples are Mega-Venusaur, Sinistcha and amoongus. I would also like to put a special spotlight on Venusaur for being severely underused as it provides as a great check for big sweepers like Ogerpon and Zama while beating some of the best walls like gliscor alo pex and heatran

 

[Moyashi]

your analogy regarding good players sounds very subjective and opinionated. respecting a pokemon move doesnt matter blud, if we are talking about what most commonly check waterpon we're obviously going to appeal to whats most commonly used. All you did here was repeat yourself lol please provide a counter argument!

Not really? A good player respects the threat of other possibilities on a top mon, even if less common, especially when said mon is so difficult to answer as is. You're not really responding to the arguments about teambuilding constraints. I'm repeating because you're sidestepping and not addressing it.

moyashi u are still yet to reply to half of the things stated bud (this is not looking good for you)

Address what? (also no offense but the tone seems kinda... personal?) Also the Mawile calc is genuinely my b. The calculator didn't load mawile as mega by default and my brain has been scrambled from lacking sleep lately so that's on me.

I think its safe to say most of the mons you mentioned would prefer doing a chunk of their opponent's sweepers HP than reserve their own. A lot of sweepers require you to burn a tera as well, that's half the reason that mechanic is in the game.

That's not how it works at a high level. You don't make unnecessary risky plays because if Wellspring attacks instead of setting up and you already have soft checks in the back, you just lost a mon for no reason. Also no, sweepers don't necessarily require tera. Many LIKE tera because it lets them circumvent checks, but necessary.

If iron valiant runs tera electric then I don't understand why you brought up corv as an ival wall in the first place, you just completely invalidated your own argument. Wellspring is really not that restrictive in the grand scheme of the meta, only as much as any other big threat at least, having to run a tera Dragon or bulky grass type and a mon that is above 110 speed (you should have one anyway) is not unreasonable. Also skarm runs Whirlwind 40% percent of the time.

I'm making a point generally. Not all ARE tera electric but the possibility is there and common. Tera Dragon, as stated, is a restrictive choice that hampers building vs other threats, while there are few true dragons that actually answer it (and again, Play Rough axes them as counterplay). Raging Bolt is the "best" and it still gets worn down and overpowered longterm if not careful.

For bulkier teams, having to dedicate a slot to a bulky dragon/grass or tera dragon, and you need two because one won't cut it, plus a mon above 110 when there aren't THAT many and none of them bar Zama can even switch in, which necessitates the backbone of at least a defensive check+soft defensive check. Cores like Ferro+Lati "work" but Ferro hates Superpower and the Latis speed tie and have potential to just loses as a result. Like +2 Tera Ivy Cudgel breaks MLatios if it's at 80% or 90% with rocks, and the spdef boost means it may not revenge it. While MLatias can take hits better it also fails to threaten a tera'd Ogerpon with attacks and thus needs TWave, limiting potential for set up sets or other options.

Yes, every big threat in the meta causes pressure on the builder, that is how building works.

The point is the stress is more than other mons and made worse when there is a lot to account for as is. Other mons don't really come close except maybe IronPress Zama (which has caused a surge of tera ghost on everything but that's for another day). Even strong threats like Specs Lele have methods to contain and limit them (limit speed, prediction reliant, pursuit weak).

There are plenty of fine grass types that would see use whether or not Wellspring was in the meta, they are niche but definetly not bad, a few examples are Mega-Venusaur, Sinistcha and amoongus. I would also like to put a special spotlight on Venusaur for being severely underused as it provides as a great check for big sweepers like Ogerpon and Zama while beating some of the best walls like gliscor alo pex and heatran

No there isn't? Like Ferro is literally the only good splashable grass. Sinistcha is just bad and match up fishy, Amoonguss is a bad grass type that becomes useless after using spore (and as a defensive grass is just worse than Ferrothorn), MVenu is an okay mon in the sense that it does more than just check Wellspring, but it also detests hazards and hates the presence of Glowking which pressures badly through Future Sight. It also gets abused by SD Gliscor, and is constantly forced to heal from Magma Storm and stealth rock vs Heatran. It's not awful compared to the others but still really difficult to fit as a Mega. Ferro is truly the sole good splashable defensive grass.

 

[Moyashi]

where did you mention the teambuilding constraints? and if anyones sidestepping its u pal theres still a whole unanswered post but dw take your time (unless u concede). You're presupposing its difficult to answer, thats the whole overarching point haha. As a good player i do not respect the possibilities of this so called "top mon" who isnt top 15 in usage but we move theres a contradiction!

I have mentioned the restraints, specifically, and several times at this point. Also usage does not reflect whether something is broken, rarely ever. Especially not ladder usage in a tier that notoriously is bad about using good mons while using bad ones.

its ok to feel that way pal, ANYWHO theres still an entire big ass message u havent, if u need help pointing it out u have already replied to it but just 2 subpoints of it!

No offense but if you want someone to respond to arguments actually point to them instead of vagueposting about them.

 

[Moyashi]

U just were complaining about me not quoting the specific message that you didn’t reply to (when I lit did) so can u please quote or repeat your argument pal

Mine were in plain view but for the sake of doing as I ask others to do

For bulkier teams, having to dedicate a slot to a bulky dragon/grass or tera dragon, and you need two because one won't cut it, plus a mon above 110 when there aren't THAT many and none of them bar Zama can even switch in, which necessitates the backbone of at least a defensive check+soft defensive check. Cores like Ferro+Lati "work" but Ferro hates Superpower and the Latis speed tie and have potential to just loses as a result. Like +2 Tera Ivy Cudgel breaks MLatios if it's at 80% or 90% with rocks, and the spdef boost means it may not revenge it. While MLatias can take hits better it also fails to threaten a tera'd Ogerpon with attacks and thus needs TWave, limiting potential for set up sets or other options.

Here.

if everyone thinks something except you then they’re probably right pal!

Who is "everyone"? Sorry where are you sourcing that from?

I mentioned it twice already even once I quoted the message. Also u literally already replied to some of the sub points in there but left out the rest idk why.
U get notified whenever I post a message quoting yours I have mentioned it twice and I have been very lenient mentioning it and reminding you over and over again. There’s no reason to get an attitude here with me buster, especially since I have given you chance after chance to reply to it (it’s never too late to concede)

"Very lenient" "not too late to concede"

Mate, kindly drop the borderline smarmy and arrogant tone. Also some hint of condescension in there too. All I asked was you to highlight what you wanted responded to instead of vague posting.

 

[sealoo]

Debating is fine, but reminder to be respectful.

Particularly 1yr - taking a condescending tone throughout all of your points does not help you get them across. Would not like to give out infractions because you cannot civilly articulate your points

 

[Emolgang]

That's not how it works at a high level. You don't make unnecessary risky plays because if Wellspring attacks instead of setting up and you already have soft checks in the back, you just lost a mon for no reason. Also no, sweepers don't necessarily require tera. Many LIKE tera because it lets them circumvent checks, but necessary.

Kinda cringe way to start off, I'm not sure why you're getting pretentious and I don't see you participating in any tours so it's not like you're an authority on high level play. If your team loses to ogerpon its pretty dumb to consider a play like that a unnecessary risky play lmao. I'm saying many sweepers force your opponent to tera, saying they don't require tera is irrelevant.

I'm making a point generally. Not all ARE tera electric but the possibility is there and common. Tera Dragon, as stated, is a restrictive choice that hampers building vs other threats, while there are few true dragons that actually answer it (and again, Play Rough axes them as counterplay). Raging Bolt is the "best" and it still gets worn down and overpowered longterm if not careful.

Then don't bring up tera electric, it's just not a valid point. Any pokemon can beat its checks in longterm that's why they are checks and not walls.

For bulkier teams, having to dedicate a slot to a bulky dragon/grass or tera dragon, and you need two because one won't cut it, plus a mon above 110 when there aren't THAT many and none of them bar Zama can even switch in, which necessitates the backbone of at least a defensive check+soft defensive check. Cores like Ferro+Lati "work" but Ferro hates Superpower and the Latis speed tie and have potential to just loses as a result. Like +2 Tera Ivy Cudgel breaks MLatios if it's at 80% or 90% with rocks, and the spdef boost means it may not revenge it. While MLatias can take hits better it also fails to threaten a tera'd Ogerpon with attacks and thus needs TWave, limiting potential for set up sets or other options.

One will cut it, as long as you have one of the above with a solid revenge killer you should have nothing to worry about. Also you just said +2 Ivy Cudgel after rocks with tera doesn't kill, that's not a point in your favor. T wave provides good utility beyond just beating pon, so it's not really much of a detriment.

No there isn't? Like Ferro is literally the only good splashable grass. Sinistcha is just bad and match up fishy, Amoonguss is a bad grass type that becomes useless after using spore (and as a defensive grass is just worse than Ferrothorn), MVenu is an okay mon in the sense that it does more than just check Wellspring, but it also detests hazards and hates the presence of Glowking which pressures badly through Future Sight. It also gets abused by SD Gliscor, and is constantly forced to heal from Magma Storm and stealth rock vs Heatran. It's not awful compared to the others but still really difficult to fit as a Mega. Ferro is truly the sole good splashable defensive grass.

Sinistcha not bad but good boy for recognizing venu as a top 1 mega in meta. I'm losing stamina to keep arguing something I'm not even all that passionate about so I will leave you for now with the statement that mega venusaur is better than ogerpon

 

[1yr]

Here.

That was an argument made to Emolgang not me tho so I see no reason for me to have to respond to it

Who is "everyone"? Sorry where are you sourcing that from?

This was in reference to ladder and you inferring that they all use bad mons and not the good ones if that applies a bit more context

Very lenient" "not too late to concede"

Mate, kindly drop the borderline smarmy and arrogant tone. Also some hint of condescension in there too. All I asked was you to highlight what you wanted responded to instead of vague posting.

my bad
Anywho

Hey there

I would believe is pretty relevant because pon is losing its ability to switch in to those scald users. You brought up Pex as an example, Pex is notorious for running Tera dragon and may easily use that to its advantage to burn and cripple Ogerpon and it’s still relatively easy to keep Pex above 80 percent thanks to it running boots+its regenerator

I don’t see how that’s relevant whatsoever considering bolt kills with z
:ragin:
252+ SpA Raging Bolt Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 375-442 (124.5 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

or thunder bolt plus thunderclap
252+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 174-205 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 135-160 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

it can literally combo like any of its moves together and kill it because oferpon loses to bolt in every situation ever unless they’re running play rough which they need +2 to kill (play rough is hardly ran and if it’s run u get walked by ferrothorn and tons of other mons which balances it beating bolt out)

I would love to see some examples for this and also let’s please not to this raging bolt stuff again because we both know raging bolt beats it 9/10 times and pls show me which mons it forces out because most the things it’s forcing out can at least status it or chip it and there are many sweepers who force out mons I think this shouldn’t be an argument for why something should be banned haha

How is it vulnerable to encore if you just Tera body press. I don’t believe this limits its effectiveness especially on stall to where its purpose is literally just stopping sweepers. How is play rough ran at a high level? As a player who has been consistently in top 20 on nd ladder I have probably come across play rough wellspring a good 3 times out of the hundreds of games and as someone who is on a wcop team and has watched the majority of the matches that have taken place I don’t think I have seen it there either, this is a baseless claim so unless you can find evidence of it being used at a high level I’m going to dismiss it. I don’t understand what u mean by respecting pokemon moves LMFAO if it’s not run it’s not run simple as that. Raging bolts unhealthy 50/50/ lie with its z move sets and whether or not it’s going to thunderclap or setup I don’t think these 50/50s matter in terms of sweepers that’s just what come with Ogerpons 4 move syndrome and with every other 4 move syndrome Mon.

this is kinda wild, tera dragon covers both of their weaknesses while also beating up half of the meta lol, I don’t see what opening yourself up to fairy types has anything to do with it because there aren’t any viable physical fairy types and the only one Corv actually walled was lele who doesn’t have a crazy amount of speed while Corv is run with slowking g a lot who walls all of those pesky luh fairy types

this was more of a joke but how is it disingenuous? I’m using a calc to show how horrible that Mon is defensively plus it always runs eject button so if you’re clicking cudgel it’s just getting free pivot out into something that can force it out or beat it, and if you stay in you get nuzzled.

These claims are baseless please provide actual calcs that prove this instead of just going “no”

kyurem can easily just switch in on setup and if its scarf click freeze dry and thrash Tf out of it and idr get the term 50/50 here lol like sure it might have superpower but whether or not it has that is by no means a 50/50.

Can you elaborate on how you think it’s unhealthy? You’re starting to overuse the word and it’s becoming ambiguous with the way you’re throwing it around.

not a single soul said it was good off of rain brother idk where you’re pulling that. It easily Tera’s and chips it if it wants and I don’t think an archaludon is coming in on a +2 Oger if it knows it has superpower (you scout with ferrothorn first)

emolgang explained this perfectly and anything I would say would just be me repeating him so I’ll just appeal to what he said because he already refuted it.

kyurem can outspeed with scarf and ohko plus Oger doesn’t always run superpower. In terms of raging bolt it gets free wallbreaking if you try to hit it with cudgel or just stacks up calm minds and fries your team, and the same thing about longevity may be said about Ogerpon to where it tries to switch into a bunch of water moves but if hazards is up your getting chipped more and more and raging bolt has the ability to run boots which is a set and like u said u should respect all sets and I have unironically seen more boots bolts than play rough Ogerpons so if you’re proposing to respect that I’ll expect you respect this set aswell. In terms of dragonite idk what you’re talking about this mon is amazing and overhated and is amazing for bulkier teams because it gets free switches because of multi scale and I think any average builder can slap it on your average team and of course your best friend play rough. It’s not ran and it sucks and I’m not gonna respect it. PlayroughK. Also

Ogerpon when it doesn’t kill kommo and it z moves killing it and reverse sweeps:
View attachment 627690


Hope you feel better, God bless. #jesusisking #freemyboyogerponheaintdonothin #adriyunisawesome #iloveadriyun #adriyun4council #ilovesetset #emolgangforlife
(I blame any errors on my laggy ass phone)

This the one I was talking about that I think you missed (the one I mentioned a couple times already was this one)

 

[Pando067]

Ban Wogerpon and I'll start grinding mons again (maybe idk)

I checked smogon for the first time in like 2 months and I see mask...

Also, (I promise I actually have something relevant to say) ferro + dnite are the best checks for wogerpon right? RIGHT??

Why can wogerpon learn this? dnite can still check but ferro basically gets melted by low kick (also wogerpon gets superpower cuz why not)

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 352-416 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
^how does ferro get one shot, this is unreal

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 231-272 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^if you have issues you can use play rough and 2hko dnite through multiscale or ohko dnite if u get a little bit of chip

Ogerpon also has other insane coverage and utility moves like knock, stomping tantrum, u-turn, zen headbutt (I guess), spikes, encore, etc. Ogerpon is too versatile and there is literally nothing it cant ohko at +2 unless you use something more niche like tera dozo (which is basically only used in stall). Ogerpon also forces tera on lots of other mons because it hits so hard with its stab and its coverage. PLEASE BAN!!

 

[Dabman1069]

Seeing as how a lot of this thread has had a lot of arguing up until now, im going to try my best not to indulge in that by just highlighting waterpon's toolkit, what it brings to the tier with regards to it needing to be accounted for while team building and the actual plays that need to made within a battle so as to not lose and I'll finish all of this off with the least important part of this, my own conclusion and what I will be voting on it.



Looking purely at its stats they're decidedly average, base 120 attack paired with 110 speed and a base ability that gives it an immunity to a type which it already quad resists while good are nothing to write home about. Being locked into just the one tera type while not great, is counteracted by the SpD boost, the increase in power of water type moves and less so losing your weaknesses caused by your grass typing. Its mask which is a required item for it to be in this form also gives it a very useful 1.2x boost to all of its attacks, which paired with a high crit rate non-contact 100BP water stab, its choice of grass stab for power, healing or sweeping; coverage in play rough, superpower, u-turn and knock off and also non attacking moves like swords dance, encore and spikes, all of this together round off waterpon's toolkit.

It uses this said toolkit to act as a sweeper, breaker or general disruptor depending on the match up, it famously poses a pretty big problem to balance structures either forcing them into trading a pokemon to try to take it down or to use specific mons like M-Venusaur or tera types like tera dragon corviknight, decent choices in their own right but constricting nonetheless, all of this while completely stuffing mons like alo with the right set and shifu locked into surging strikes while turning them into setup fodder. Stall is largely unaffected with just being forced to run tera dragon on their dozo, offense also has a fairly interesting matchup in that while its usually easy enough to revenge kill , if a +1 Spe boost were to be acquired the revenge killers are limited to booster val, multiscale intact dnite and the niche booster boulder all of which require prior chip to fulfill this task. Rain is also quite a good matchup for it in large part because of its ability, forcing the use of the usually useless poison jab on skewda and m-pert and 50-50s on whether or not to flip turn.

To conclude while waterpon has its highnotes and is generally a fairly consistent pokemon, I personally just believe that theres enough in the tier to be able to keep it in check on both the defensive and offensive spectrum and therefore will be voting DNB.

(With this being the first time I've ever really laid out my thoughts like this in a thread, I sincerely hope I was able to do so in a well enough manner and am completely open to any and all inputs as long as they're said in a nice manner.)