Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[ABR]

I'm not sure where the general public stands but I personally believe outright banning tera would be a grave, long-term mistake. The current meta is very fun yet competitive. Whether tera needs to be modified (showing types for ex) will be seen but should definitely remain in some form regardless. I don't expect action soon or anything I just wanted to dish out some positivity in case it was lacking.

Keep on gaming, gamers

 

[Ctann]

Zamazenta is the true final boss.

I actually love how it invalidates all-physical attacker teams.

really was thinking it’s OP before, now I’m loving the space it’s carved in the meta

replay to illustrate the anti-physical:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1886369063-5acdnis40if8jf4ukdtluxolqtq5sbypw

It’s predictable , so very easy to plan around. Definitely no where on the level of the other banned stuff. The choice banned set is basically cheese. Unless it surprises your opponent , it’s not so good.

keeps dragapult honest, checks mr checkmate himself, and disrupts offense.

I'm not sure where the general public stands but I personally believe outright banning tera would be a grave, long-term mistake. The current meta is very fun yet competitive. Whether tera needs to be modified (showing types for ex) will be seen but should definitely remain in some form regardless. I don't expect action soon or anything I just wanted to dish out some positivity in case it was lacking.

Keep on gaming, gamers

im all for Tera , but I think it needs to be disclosed at preview. It might not solve everything, but it’ll solve a lot

 

[sims796]

If you see a post about someone not liking tera, just say to yourself, "I like tera, I think it's fun and it defines the gen."
You don't need to take it as a personal attack and get worked up about it.

I'm just expressing my opinions and thinking out loud.
From what I see in OU chat + personal experiences + survey scores = Tera isn't as beloved or as fun as you may think it is to the average player.

It's weird how rarely I get a pro-tera response that isn't filled w vitriol.

I agree that people takes shit too far, but this is a weird take to have on a discussion board. If there's an opinion voiced that Ifeel llike disagreeing, I will share it with the board the same way the holder of said opinion shared theirs.

Otherwise I'd take it to a blog, if I don't want my views challenged.

 

[Exotic64]

I agree that people takes shit too far, but this is a weird take to have on a discussion board. If there's an opinion voiced that Ifeel llike disagreeing, I will share it with the board the same way the holder of said opinion shared theirs.

Otherwise I'd take it to a blog, if I don't want my views challenged.

Wrong quote lol i wouldn’t say that since I’m the most pro tera person ever

anyways I believe firmly that tera needs to stay both for the longevity of the meta game and for the enjoyment of the players. I find tera very enjoyable rn and I think it is a mechanic that rewards game knowledge; knowing when to use it at the right time is also a skill of tera that comes with experience. There was a lot of posts about tera flying gambit and how “even if u anticipate gambit turning flying what are you going to do about it” posts. In that case if you are predicting the gambit tera yet you lose from it i think it’s the ‘mon that’s op and not tera frankly. The only real mon that tera WAS op on was regieleki since it legit couldn’t be outsped and with tera got bolt beam coverage. Do I think gambit needs a ban? No, although i think we can all agree it’s quite broken at times I believe there is enough counterplay to it such as simply running a great tusk which is the most used Mon in the meta game still I believe. Zama also hard walls gambit, and if enemy gambit turns flying it’s also a lot more prone to revenge kills from your own gambit if you are running one (very likely since the meta is HO again). Gambit is an OU staple Mon and while I do think it could be considered for a suspect I feel like there is enough checks and counters for it, and the potential that banning it will do more harm than good due to it being the tier’s best revenge killer

 

[WildWave]

I'm not sure where the general public stands but I personally believe outright banning tera would be a grave, long-term mistake. The current meta is very fun yet competitive. Whether tera needs to be modified (showing types for ex) will be seen but should definitely remain in some form regardless. I don't expect action soon or anything I just wanted to dish out some positivity in case it was lacking.

Keep on gaming, gamers

Thank God someone said it.

Just gonna add that in my personal opinion, Tera previews or Tera limits doesn't solve anything. Your still playing guessing games at the end of the day. I prefer keeping it as is due to the surprising factor it presents. This is the most fun I've had in a while with Tera being the main factor in this generation. :)

 

[sims796]

Wrong quote lol i wouldn’t say that since I’m the most pro tera person ever

I am very anti tera right now, that wasn't my point. It was how there arent any sacred opinions here. Anything said can and most likely will be debated. "Thinking out loud" unchallenged are for personal blogs. At least, that was my take.

I mean I quoted the post directly, but it's good that it was fixed up.

 

[Hematite]

I am very anti tera right now, that wasn't my point. It was how there arent any sacred opinions here. Anything said can and most likely will be debated. "Thinking out loud" unchallenged are for personal blogs. At least, that was my take.

I mean I quoted the post directly, but it's good that it was fixed up.

What they mean is that it literally was not them who said that.
The person you were quoting was LoseToRU, from all the way back on page 68. You have the wrong person's name in your quote, and you should be able to click on the embedded quote yourself to see that it links to a completely different post.

 

[Magcargo]

Zamazenta is the true final boss.

I actually love how it invalidates all-physical attacker teams.

really was thinking it’s OP before, now I’m loving the space it’s carved in the meta

replay to illustrate the anti-physical:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1886369063-5acdnis40if8jf4ukdtluxolqtq5sbypw

It’s predictable , so very easy to plan around. Definitely no where on the level of the other banned stuff. The choice banned set is basically cheese. Unless it surprises your opponent , it’s not so good.

keeps dragapult honest, checks mr checkmate himself, and disrupts offense.



im all for Tera , but I think it needs to be disclosed at preview. It might not solve everything, but it’ll solve a lot

Yeah I was thinking that. Zamazenta kinda forces similar dynamics to gambit since it can completely destroys teams, only its win condition is that special attackers are out of the way. Dragapult is required to be preserved arguably since its fast Wisp is one of the best ways to keep it in check. Trick Gholdengo is pretty useful vs it too.

Ironically, both are also useful vs Gambit for similar reasons lol.

Unlike with Gambit, Tera is actually kinda a nice tool to keep the dog in check. Tera Ghost Gambit is able to brute force its way through Zamazenta if needed.

The issue is that Tera Ghost mons become Gambit bait themselves. Its a catch 22.

 

[June Heat]

The dog really punishes poor team building. You need at least 2/3 checks for the good boy, or your team gets mauled. I get that the checks are stand-alone good Pokemon, none of that Tauros business, but the fact that you Have to have them or you just lose is kinda lame. Really forces standard more than any other Pokémon in the meta right now imo.

 

[sims796]

What they mean is that it literally was not them who said that.
The person you were quoting was LoseToRU, from all the way back on page 68. You have the wrong person's name in your quote, and you should be able to click on the embedded quote yourself to see that it links to a completely different post.

Thank goodness, I am so sorry, quoting on the phone is tough, I was wondering why clicking the name I posted bought me to that!

 

[Ast0rga]

I'm not sure where the general public stands but I personally believe outright banning tera would be a grave, long-term mistake. The current meta is very fun yet competitive. Whether tera needs to be modified (showing types for ex) will be seen but should definitely remain in some form regardless. I don't expect action soon or anything I just wanted to dish out some positivity in case it was lacking.

Keep on gaming, gamers

Yep, exactly what I said, except that this comment is nicer.
Mine was just cold facts served on the cheapest plate, but yeah both are true

As soon as tera is gone, the gen is gone too.

 

[Ctann]

The dog really punishes poor team building. You need at least 2/3 checks for the good boy, or your team gets mauled. I get that the checks are stand-alone good Pokemon, none of that Tauros business, but the fact that you Have to have them or you just lose is kinda lame. Really forces standard more than any other Pokémon in the meta right now imo.

do we say rain needs to go because it punishes teams without at least 2-3 sturdy water resists and/or a Tera type that resists water?

I think zam is polarising because it’s specifically the entire roster of physical hitters that it beats. Not including Tera ghosters

 

[Mega Breloom]

do we say rain needs to go because it punishes teams without at least 2-3 sturdy water resists and/or a Tera type that resists water?

I think zam is polarising because it’s specifically the entire roster of physical hitters that it beats. Not including Tera ghosters

The issue with Zama is the speed tier, a mon that fat shouldn't be that fast. That stat spread allows a lot of stuff, while being able to hold an item makes it more versatile. Crowned may be banned because of the body press set, but if Hero doesn't get banned I'm fearing of the potential of it when people explore other options with it, IMO it has the potential to be as busted as ORAS Mega-Sableye.

 

[June Heat]

do we say rain needs to go because it punishes teams without at least 2-3 sturdy water resists and/or a Tera type that resists water?

I think zam is polarising because it’s specifically the entire roster of physical hitters that it beats. Not including Tera ghosters

That's an entire archetype compared to one Mon not really a fair comparison.

I also think Tera Ghost is kinda crud against Zama since Zama usually always carries Crunch, and unless the mon in question is OHKO'ing it back, which with 92/115/115 bulk is easier said then done, it's getting chewed on. Naw Tera Fairy is the way to go I think if you need to Tera defensively against Zama.

 

[Magcargo]

The issue with Zama is the speed tier, a mon that fat shouldn't be that fast. That stat spread allows a lot of stuff, while being able to hold an item makes it more versatile. Crowned may be banned because of the body press set, but if Hero doesn't get banned I'm fearing of the potential of it when people explore other options with it, IMO it has the potential to be as busted as ORAS Mega-Sableye.

Yeah, I am somewhat worried about this too. I don't think Zamazenta is too broken right now, or even a better option than Pokemon like Tusks in most cases, but that stat spread is begging to be cracked open with sets that can completely destroy the tier, the same way it was for Kyurem.

Thankfully, like pre-gen 8 Kyurem, Zamazenta is held back by a very poor movepool, which lacks the one or two options that really could have broken it. Its movepool is probably worse than Kyurem actually since it doesn't have reliable recovery & its main STAB sorta thuds vs common Pokemon + can be counterpicked w/ Tera Ghost. I do not think this Pokemon has much room for creativity the same way Kyurem did with sets like SubDD. However, the existing BodyPress + ID set may be more problematic down the line due to its speed + defense letting it setup very easy win conditions. Is this more broken than Pokemon which cause similar ramifications like Dragonite, Kingambit, Volcarona (rip ;_;), and Iron Valiant? That's up for debate.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Yeah, I am somewhat worried about this too. I don't think Zamazenta is too broken right now, or even a better option than Pokemon like Tusks in most cases, but that stat spread is begging to be cracked open with sets that can completely destroy the tier, the same way it was for Kyurem.

Thankfully, like pre-gen 8 Kyurem, Zamazenta is held back by a very poor movepool, which lacks the one or two options that really could have broken it. Its movepool is probably worse than Kyurem actually since it doesn't have reliable recovery & its main STAB sorta thuds vs common Pokemon + can be counterpicked w/ Tera Ghost. I do not think this Pokemon has much room for creativity the same way Kyurem did with sets like SubDD. However, the existing BodyPress + ID set may be more problematic down the line due to its speed + defense letting it setup very easy win conditions. Is this more broken than Pokemon which cause similar ramifications like Dragonite, Kingambit, Volcarona (rip ;_;), and Iron Valiant? That's up for debate.

Yeah, even if its movepool isn't that great that stats spread is something that needs respect especially with the itemslot avaliable potentially making it less one dimentional compared to crowned. But yeah, the speed is the biggest issue, everyone just says "just run more special mons" but this thing outspeeds everything not named pult so it potentially can ko those mons too, with only vaccum wave as the only priority move on that side.

 

[CheesyBrie]

Why are you arbitrarily deciding that Garchomp and Tyranitar should always stay OU? You seem to have this attachment to old Pokemon for some reason, and saying that UU "is the real OU now" becase it has more Pokemon you like? Just say that you find UU more fun and move on, go play some gen 6 OU or something if you want to play in a metagame where your favourites are viable.

^ Everyone complaining about Tera should adhere to this logic as well. If you don't like Tera, just go play another format!
Or just run Covert Cloak!

 

[KamenOH]

That's an entire archetype compared to one Mon not really a fair comparison.

I also think Tera Ghost is kinda crud against Zama since Zama usually always carries Crunch, and unless the mon in question is OHKO'ing it back, which with 92/115/115 bulk is easier said then done, it's getting chewed on. Naw Tera Fairy is the way to go I think if you need to Tera defensively against Zama.

Huh, why wouldn't Iron Head work to cover Tera Fairy Mons? Is it 4MSS? Crunch, Iron Head, CC, Rest. Its not going to be 3hko by a phys attacker, and certainly not 2hko by a special if you time the rest properly.

 

[Magcargo]

I know I'm repeating myself, but I'm not sold on the idea that Garchomp's drop in usage is due to "powercreep" or losing Scale Shot (though losing the move certainly does matter in this meta). I don't really like making comparisons to National Dex since I understand that is a separate tier, but Garchomp is still seen favorably there and most of its sets don't even run Scale Shot. Heck, its even ranked higher than Tusk in that format. Why would powercreep be an issue when Chomp does just fine in a metagame with more threats?

The real issue, I believe, is that its speed tier just isn't as valuable right now. Outside of, like, Zapdos, I don't think there are any major relevant Pokemon that it outspeeds compared to offensive Tusk / Lando. In Natdex, its speed tier seems a lot more valuable since its outspeeding big threats like Tapu Lele, Mega Medicham, Charizard-Y, etc, which makes it more viable. Here, the speed barely makes a difference most threats are either above Chomp's paygrade (Enamorus, Valiant) or already outsped by Tusk / Lando-T (Gholdengo). Furthermore, Tusk can easily manipulate its speed with Rapid Spin, and Lando-T is a better scarfer due to U-Turn and no Rocks weakness. This is where I kinda see the arguement for Scale Shot since Chomp could have also manipulated its speed tier too, but its difficult to say since the increase priority weakness would also hurt vs Gambit + Scale Shot doesn't do much vs Enamorus which may use chomp as an entry point.

Chomp's role in the hazard game is also somewhat mixed. Tusks has a defined niche as the tiers main remover (though can get overwhelmed by Spikes), Lando-T has a niche as a pivot being immune to Spikes, and Ting-Lu is the definitive hazard bot. Chomp's role in this game is mostly following Ting-Lu's playbook, and it does have its pros like Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet letting it get decent chip on the foe and a speed tier letting it get the jump on opposing Ting-Lu so you can phase it before it sets up more hazards, but Ting-Lu's sheer bulk effectively gives it a built in Focus Sash, which is so much more powerful in the hazards game.

In a vaccum, I don't think Chomp is bad. I was using Chainchomp the other day and it did a solid job at Knocking out Great Tusk and Corviknight looking to get Hazards removed. Dispatching Corv in particular is a massive benefit since that mon can be annoying for Gholdengo to Knock out if its not running NP. However, most teams just don't seem to find its unique traits valuable today over its competition. Less powercreep and more that its competition is just more useful.

 

[sims796]

Seriously, Dire Claw can go straight to hell! That move...I don't wanna say it sucks, but come on!

I'm sorry, but I don't consider a STAB Poison move coming from a (I had to look this up) base 130 Atk to be worth it's salt.

Low level shenanigans on display, sure, but this is just...

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1886467064

I was the Hat. I don't blame them. I'm just so used to Hatt being mollywhopped by poison and having to burn a Tera on team preview if they have Glim, that seeing her easily tank the hit tera'd water, then realizing that double that is still a losing trade for Sneasler...

 

[Cuddly]

I said it before and I’ll say it again.
I think banning Tera outright would be way to drastic of a move and I think that many people put too much blame on Tera for X strategy/Pokemon being over the edge. If Tera were banned, I’d still see tons of Pokemon still being Ubers anyways over the course of Gen 9. Like yeah, Annihilape is incredibly strong and making itself Water for a better defensive typing is definitely cool, but I feel like the Fighting/Ghost type (easy top 3 types) with a move that easily reaches BP surpassing Explosion without major drawbacks and is an extremely spammable type would still be Ubers for sure.
However, I do feel like Tera Blast itself could be looked at. Tera Blast is a move that’s very similar to Hidden Power. Hidden Power has multiple advantages like being able to be used on multiple Pokemon on a team, it not requiring a limited resource, and smaller things like getting Technician boost, being consistantly special (namely for Lando), or not always being telegraphed. Though you pretty much knew what Hidden Power a Pokemon used like 1-2 different types for Hidden Power. Tera Blast is similar in that regard too where you have a rough idea what your opponent is using. However, unlike Hidden Power, Tera Blast 99% of the time has an effective 120 BP thanks to Tera STAB (and 106.67 BP) compared to Hidden Power’s 60 nonSTAB BP. Hidden Power gives majority of Special Attackers any coverage they want with the drawback of it being weak. This makes sense as coverage is a massive make or break for Pokemon. As an example, Volcarona was extremely dangerous because it always had the option to chunk its checks with Hidden Power, namely Hidden Power Ground for Heatran. An HP Ground to SpD invested Heatran would still be around half.
252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 188-224 (48.7 - 58%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With Tera Blast however, you can just straight up OHKO Heatran
252 SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 372-444 (96.3 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
I did argue before that “well if Dragapult for Shadow Claw, would you ban Shadow Claw? or Ban Earthpower because Volcarona got Earthpower?” After some consideration, I realized that Tera Blast is effectively giving Dragapult Shadow Claw, or Volcarona Earthpower. Not only that, but also giving them Brick Break, Aura Sphere, Surf, Dazzling Gleam, Play Rough, Icicle Crash, Ice Beam, etc. all potentially in 1 move. They might have to choose between them, but fact is you still have something similar to Earthpower on Volcarona and every Pokemon has something similar to that coverage move they wished they had.

I’d say the best course of action is to discuss this and see if it’d be appropriate to do a suspect test later on. After the current radar is clean. It’s a good middle ground between Anti-Tera and Pro-Tera side as you’re not touching Tera itself and instead touching Super Hidden Power instead, something that can be compromised more easily.

 

[Avira]

Tera Blast has no business being banned. The only mons that were arguably or outright broken with Tera Blast are Espathra, Regieleki, and Volcarona. This does not meet the standard for a blanket ban on Tera Blast, and no matter how many times you repeat yourself, Cuddly, it will not gain any more traction. I still believe that the best thing for the meta is an outright ban on Tera and that Tera Preview will actually make the meta worse.

 

[Return to Zero]

However, I do feel like Tera Blast itself could be looked at.

Tera Blast is, at most, one quarter of the actual issue with Tera. Banning it would not address the other problems, like forcing guessing games that come down completely to chance and disproportionate rewards for each side for guessing right or wrong. "Giving Dragapult Shadow Claw" is a complete non-issue and the best Tera abusers are the ones who use it defensively. The biggest benefit you can get from Tera is suddenly resisting or being immune to the attacks of what were formerly your checks. And this won't affect other big things like getting double STAB, getting STAB on a secondary attack typing you already have moves for, potential status immunity, that sort of thing.

I really do not understand how banning Tera Blast could be a middle ground compromise everyone can agree on. It's a very small concession that in practice only slightly changes how Tera is used and how good it is. Personally, I think the fact that no one can come up with an actual middle ground compromise everyone is okay with speaks to how unwieldy and unbalanced Tera is, and that banning it all or nothing is the only play now.

 

[Vert]

I'm not sure where the general public stands but I personally believe outright banning tera would be a grave, long-term mistake. The current meta is very fun yet competitive. Whether tera needs to be modified (showing types for ex) will be seen but should definitely remain in some form regardless. I don't expect action soon or anything I just wanted to dish out some positivity in case it was lacking.

Keep on gaming, gamers

facts

from the games i've played on high ladder so far, the current metagame is very skill expressive outside of zapdos. you need to play a near-perfect game a lot of the time because tera adds a punishing, extra layer of strategic depth. i agree an outright ban would be a mistake, and i'd even go as far to say a restriction is unnecessary as well.

i fail to see what team preview accomplishes outside of being able to game-plan for certain defensive tera users such as tera-steel iron valiant or tera-flying kingambit a bit better. on the contrary, a team preview restriction would increase the amount of pure 50/50's regarding the mechanic, which i rarely came across to begin with, and players abusing the system by using X tera-type without expected Y move. another thing i dislike about this restriction is it removes the concept of lures from play. having to burn your tera to surprise kill something has an opportunity cost as it requires you to use your best trump card. if my opponent can see my dragapult is tera-fighting in advance, the idea of being able to lure kingambit goes out the window since a crazy tera-type like that implies having tera blast too. this is pretty lame in my opinion as it limits your options in the team builder; there's no point in running a lure set if your opponent can see it coming, right? all of the proposed restrictions are honestly just compromises with the "outright ban" playerbase who will continue to bitch about the mechanic even if said restriction happens. i'm not interested in compromising.

i don't really talk about tera too much because (a) we won the vote :] & (b) there's no point arguing with a vocal minority who are adamant on outright banning it. they've already made up their mind and some of the toxic tera discourse on prior pages can attest to this. overall my rationale is i don't see any reason to delete or restrict a mechanic that is already perfectly competitive and skill expressive to begin with. you are free to disagree with this statement, and i am open to answering the "outright ban" side's concerns if they can provide high ladder / tournament replays to back up their points. appreciate you.

 

[Karxrida]

I'm not sure where the general public stands but I personally believe outright banning tera would be a grave, long-term mistake. The current meta is very fun yet competitive. Whether tera needs to be modified (showing types for ex) will be seen but should definitely remain in some form regardless. I don't expect action soon or anything I just wanted to dish out some positivity in case it was lacking.

Keep on gaming, gamers

After the awfulness of Dynamax and the blandness of Z-Moves I've been greatly enjoying the depth that Tera provides as a generational gimmick. While I still get blindsided by my opponents using it since I haven't been playing the tier super consistently, it allows for a great deal of creativity in the builder and flexibility in actual battles without being an auto-win button (usually).

Tera Blast is, at most, one quarter of the actual issue with Tera. Banning it would not address the other problems, like forcing guessing games that come down completely to chance and disproportionate rewards for each side for guessing right or wrong.

I'm not going to say Tera doesn't have issues that should be left completely unaddressed, but I really hate the argument that there's luck involved with its use. (Fuck Gen 6 Aegislash/King's Shield discourse for continuing to poison this well btw.) Your opponent is not a wild Pokémon AI that is randomly selecting their moves every turn. They don't flip a coin to determine whether or not to Tera. They made a decision in the builder and continue to make decisions during a match. Just because you cannot control your opponent or read their mind and lack some information does not mean you're in a luck-based situation. You are at best complaining about bad matchups or risk management, which are things you just have to deal with in any competitive game.

Honestly, not knowing the Tera and needing to figure it out is kind of reminiscent of generations before Team Preview where you need to piece together your opponent's plan during the match, which modern players (and myself tbh) are clearly not used to. (Ironically, iirc people back then hated the existence of Team Preview because human as a species just don't like big changes.)