well said. you know your way around the meta game.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
Not really acting like seasoned staff when they take things out of context and openly insult players.
They passively aggressively ignored my post after making false claims and putting words in my mouth.
If all someone wants to contribute to a tera conversation is "Shut up you annoying assholes" then that's just weird, staff or not.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that post was edited or taken down. Not a good look.
I think bringing up the trash fire that was gen 8 needs to stop being used as a pro-tera talking point, all due respect.
I think Tera will push out more mons in the long run that would have been fine otherwise.
When Urshi loses it's fighting weaknesses, things change. But yeah we'll see how many it claims eventually. I assume more than a few. Gambit is on my radar lowkey. But that's just me.
EDIT:
Apologies Finch, did not see this when you posted.
Let's talk about the VR thread, Light Clay, SP, or just some random cool techs with the Home mons.
I think we could all use a break tbh.
I will once again try and provide an out from pointless bickering (first dire claw now this) to try and Discuss The Metagame. Gonna talk about some of our old champions.
More like Iron Variance am I fucking right. This mon had 8 bazillion sets before, and with the new meta that has been cut down to a whopping 1 million. Now it has real 4mss. Dropping fighting moves into heatran is disgusting, not having knock into glowking is also some turbo ass, and up until recently having to deal with Magearna was tuff for it. That all being said I think it can still do what it does best especially soon when mr steel dog is gone and dead. SD booster, choice band, specs, scarf, CM (you need tera steel or smth stupid to beat glowking), mixed with moon cc knock and psyshock, and so on. Its variance is still grand however much more realistically manageable in the builder. Curious to see where we take our enby icon.
Its no rocket science why bro sucks rn. Dogs, Chien, Sneasler I suppose, Lando Intim, Wisp Heatran. I think once Dogs/Chien go it both loses its greatest answers and best competition. Tera fire, flying, fairy, and dark all look great still, same bullshit as always. Maybe even could see tera water going forward to beat lando/tusk/dirge/heatran in one smooth cook. With Lando around, Gambit also has to choose wisely with its ability, but honestly on bulky offences w/leftovers gambit, I think defiant gambit is easily affordable. He will be the goat again, mark my words.
Fucking dogs once again hurting a GOATs viability. That being said, I don't buy super into the "its outclassed by Chien" stuff because I dont think chien replicates what this guy does. Burn immunity is godsend espicially when the tier has so many wisp users (Dragapult, Ace, Rotom, Heatran, Skeledirge, and also fbody volcarona and steam from volcanion). Chien and Bax with choice band do indeed do similar things, and chien does do it better, however, when a chien comes out you don't need to think "what if it subs here then tera fairies on my draco then dd's and kills my entire team right here right now". Mon is great, start using it again please kids.
Hard to justify using over just tera water volcarona. Pre-Home i was convinced this mon did tera-ground better than volcarona, and that volc did more defensive dd stuff better. Rn Volcarona seems to heavily outclass as a sweeper overall, but maybe this guy could pop back in on tspike weak HO's in the future?
Hoping this guy picks up again post bans. Knock and Uturn and spikes + a move that beats through curse/id garg, curse dozo, etc. Such high value. Amazing mon, excited and hopeful for her return into the metagame.
More like Iron Variance am I fucking right. This mon had 8 bazillion sets before, and with the new meta that has been cut down to a whopping 1 million. Now it has real 4mss. Dropping fighting moves into heatran is disgusting, not having knock into glowking is also some turbo ass, and up until recently having to deal with Magearna was tuff for it. That all being said I think it can still do what it does best especially soon when mr steel dog is gone and dead. SD booster, choice band, specs, scarf, CM (you need tera steel or smth stupid to beat glowking), mixed with moon cc knock and psyshock, and so on. Its variance is still grand however much more realistically manageable in the builder. Curious to see where we take our enby icon. Its no rocket science why bro sucks rn. Dogs, Chien, Sneasler I suppose, Lando Intim, Wisp Heatran. I think once Dogs/Chien go it both loses its greatest answers and best competition. Tera fire, flying, fairy, and dark all look great still, same bullshit as always. Maybe even could see tera water going forward to beat lando/tusk/dirge/heatran in one smooth cook. With Lando around, Gambit also has to choose wisely with its ability, but honestly on bulky offences w/leftovers gambit, I think defiant gambit is easily affordable. He will be the goat again, mark my words. Fucking dogs once again hurting a GOATs viability. That being said, I don't buy super into the "its outclassed by Chien" stuff because I dont think chien replicates what this guy does. Burn immunity is godsend espicially when the tier has so many wisp users (Dragapult, Ace, Rotom, Heatran, Skeledirge, and also fbody volcarona and steam from volcanion). Chien and Bax with choice band do indeed do similar things, and chien does do it better, however, when a chien comes out you don't need to think "what if it subs here then tera fairies on my draco then dd's and kills my entire team right here right now". Mon is great, start using it again please kids. Hard to justify using over just tera water volcarona. Pre-Home i was convinced this mon did tera-ground better than volcarona, and that volc did more defensive dd stuff better. Rn Volcarona seems to heavily outclass as a sweeper overall, but maybe this guy could pop back in on tspike weak HO's in the future? Hoping this guy picks up again post bans. Knock and Uturn and spikes + a move that beats through curse/id garg, curse dozo, etc. Such high value. Amazing mon, excited and hopeful for her return into the metagame.
I wasn't ignoring your post at all. I just didn't feel there was much to clarify after your response. If you'd like to talk about it further then I'm more than happy to talk to you outside this thread as well ^^
edit: also @ the "don't argue with senior staff" thing - i'm just a player same as anyone, feel free to tell me when i'm wrong if you want lol
You are right that emotions are running high, at least in that post you quoted. I'll admit that; apologies for any disrespect.
We're all players here and we all love this game.
Funny “in theory” Hisuigant set:
Lilligant-Hisui (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Victory Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- Ice Spinner
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Tera Grass Lilligant-Hisui Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 181-213 (44 - 51.8%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO nice Lilligant check LOL
Obviously not great into offense, you desperately need a boost and offensive teams will not be giving you one—but defensive teams get ROLLED. The unaware trio fucking dies to Leaf Blade and other bulky staples have to contend with your boosts (hint: they can’t).
Defensive tusk especially is a setup opportunity, which feels real nice whenever you see it. Lando too, technically, aslong as they aren’t TB flying or Fly or whatever.
Lilligant-Hisui (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Victory Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- Ice Spinner
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Tera Grass Lilligant-Hisui Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 181-213 (44 - 51.8%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO nice Lilligant check LOL
Obviously not great into offense, you desperately need a boost and offensive teams will not be giving you one—but defensive teams get ROLLED. The unaware trio fucking dies to Leaf Blade and other bulky staples have to contend with your boosts (hint: they can’t).
Defensive tusk especially is a setup opportunity, which feels real nice whenever you see it. Lando too, technically, aslong as they aren’t TB flying or Fly or whatever.
I do remember baxcalibur starting to pick up usage just before chien got the boot, but I don't know if I'm just misremebering stuff.
I'm talking pre-home here by the way.
You are remembering correct. During chien days there was a rly strong balance core of bunker pex/flame body volc/garg/tusk which chien struggled to break without getting cucked by poison, and stuff like sd gambit or other physical breakers often got folded by volc flame body/wisp.
Baxcalbur did not. And he was rly solid into this shit.
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Meow would be so sick rn if Zama C and Pao left today. Knock off is a luxury rn and it’s one of the best users flower trick would be awesome rn. It sets up hazards well. Its speed tier becomes a lot better without those two. It would just be a solid choice for building. Right now it’s hard to justify since giving a free switch to Zama C or Pao is game losing sometimes.
I've been categorized as a super pro-Tera poster before (probably understandably so), but over time my opinions on the mechanic have become less gung-ho, and in my opinion, more nuanced.
Simply put: I believe Terastilization to be a sidegrade to Pokemon, and not a positive or a negative. It changes the game in a way that will either be to someone still competitive, and probably more fun; or uncompetitively, unhealthy and degrading to your enjoyment over time.
I'd say that there is absolutely a mindset change that is required in a Tera metagame, and that is with long-term or short-term thinking. In The Olden Days of 8ish months ago, or literally now if you go and play old metas (that exists btw!), the common experienced practice is to load into a match, read what you need to do and what your endgame will be, and play to that endgame.
Now, with Tera, that endgame could be impossible from the get-go. Or very hard to pull off compared to another. It adds a different air to the game, where short-term strategy matters more. The endgame decision is much later in the game (at least compared to Turn 1, especially when half these games be sub 50 turns for real lol), and that can lead to, arguably lesser quality matches if that is what you are looking for in competitive Pokemon.
If what you are looking for in competitive Pokemon is a game where you are playing to an endgame from the start, and must execute on that before the opponent then you will probably see Tera is unhealthy. It absolutely, 100% makes that a lot more foggy, and possibly even "less competitive" if that is what you see as competitive Pokemon.
However, not everyone sees competitive Pokemon's value as that trait. I cannot speak for other people, but to me, competitive Pokemon is very enjoyable when I know what the context of the metagame is, and I am able to adapt throughout the match. In short, I, and I presume some others as well, value short-term planning as well; and adaptation of a player. The ability to go in with some idea, but then have it dismantled, only to be able to come out on top is in my opinion also competitive. And this is absolutely a thing in almost every metagame, it's just less important.
In other words, this is why I honestly really enjoy Gen 3 and 4 OU, where meta knowledge can help me figure out cores, but it's not really guaranteed until I play more. There is discovery in all metagames, but I do not think it is valid to assume every metagame tests the exact same skillset to the same degree. I think every metagame tests every skillset to some degree, but different ones have different priorities.
long post so here is a picture to break it up take a break woooo :>>>>
I am also a Random Battles Enjoyer, I am deadass much better at it than regular OU, and while ironically Tera in my opinion is pretty ass in Random Battles (because it's unironically more swingy than Dynamax in the mode, as it generally does not bring much defensive value. If I Tera Steel my Pokemon to take some Outrages, their last could be a Fire-Type that my otherwise Steel-Type could beat. Not to say Gen 9 Random Battles is uncompetitive, I just don't really enjoy Tera in it.)
In short, I can see why someone would find Tera unhealthy or uncompetitive depending on why you think competitive Pokemon is, er, competitive in the first place. As a player that values adaptation above long-term game plans, I do not see Tera as problematic. I can see why others would, but I do not think that makes it "objectively" uncompetitive, or unhealthy.
On the topic of Pokemon themselves, in a very old post I talked about how a pro-Tera arguer simply has to accept that some things will be banned because of Tera. I still agree with that, but I will say most things "broken by Tera" are already pretty matchup-fishy Pokemon that basically win on the spot without set counters. Espathra isn't exactly fucked without Tera, it's just less able to be an uncompetitive force in the meta. I'd argue Volcarona has never been good for a metagame, and if it eventually gets banned here (which so far seems unlikely, alas :/ ) is just able to be more obviously good at doing what it's basically always done, just more blatantly so.
This was a bit of a rant, but basically; I sympathize with how it must feel to not like Tera, but I feel like pretending it's just "one side is facts and logic" and one is "it's fun!!!" is not healthy discussion, or valid. I think Tera shows what people prioritize in Pokemon, and that it isn't all the same thing.
Simply put: I believe Terastilization to be a sidegrade to Pokemon, and not a positive or a negative. It changes the game in a way that will either be to someone still competitive, and probably more fun; or uncompetitively, unhealthy and degrading to your enjoyment over time.
I'd say that there is absolutely a mindset change that is required in a Tera metagame, and that is with long-term or short-term thinking. In The Olden Days of 8ish months ago, or literally now if you go and play old metas (that exists btw!), the common experienced practice is to load into a match, read what you need to do and what your endgame will be, and play to that endgame.
Now, with Tera, that endgame could be impossible from the get-go. Or very hard to pull off compared to another. It adds a different air to the game, where short-term strategy matters more. The endgame decision is much later in the game (at least compared to Turn 1, especially when half these games be sub 50 turns for real lol), and that can lead to, arguably lesser quality matches if that is what you are looking for in competitive Pokemon.
If what you are looking for in competitive Pokemon is a game where you are playing to an endgame from the start, and must execute on that before the opponent then you will probably see Tera is unhealthy. It absolutely, 100% makes that a lot more foggy, and possibly even "less competitive" if that is what you see as competitive Pokemon.
However, not everyone sees competitive Pokemon's value as that trait. I cannot speak for other people, but to me, competitive Pokemon is very enjoyable when I know what the context of the metagame is, and I am able to adapt throughout the match. In short, I, and I presume some others as well, value short-term planning as well; and adaptation of a player. The ability to go in with some idea, but then have it dismantled, only to be able to come out on top is in my opinion also competitive. And this is absolutely a thing in almost every metagame, it's just less important.
In other words, this is why I honestly really enjoy Gen 3 and 4 OU, where meta knowledge can help me figure out cores, but it's not really guaranteed until I play more. There is discovery in all metagames, but I do not think it is valid to assume every metagame tests the exact same skillset to the same degree. I think every metagame tests every skillset to some degree, but different ones have different priorities.
long post so here is a picture to break it up take a break woooo :>>>>
I am also a Random Battles Enjoyer, I am deadass much better at it than regular OU, and while ironically Tera in my opinion is pretty ass in Random Battles (because it's unironically more swingy than Dynamax in the mode, as it generally does not bring much defensive value. If I Tera Steel my Pokemon to take some Outrages, their last could be a Fire-Type that my otherwise Steel-Type could beat. Not to say Gen 9 Random Battles is uncompetitive, I just don't really enjoy Tera in it.)
In short, I can see why someone would find Tera unhealthy or uncompetitive depending on why you think competitive Pokemon is, er, competitive in the first place. As a player that values adaptation above long-term game plans, I do not see Tera as problematic. I can see why others would, but I do not think that makes it "objectively" uncompetitive, or unhealthy.
On the topic of Pokemon themselves, in a very old post I talked about how a pro-Tera arguer simply has to accept that some things will be banned because of Tera. I still agree with that, but I will say most things "broken by Tera" are already pretty matchup-fishy Pokemon that basically win on the spot without set counters. Espathra isn't exactly fucked without Tera, it's just less able to be an uncompetitive force in the meta. I'd argue Volcarona has never been good for a metagame, and if it eventually gets banned here (which so far seems unlikely, alas :/ ) is just able to be more obviously good at doing what it's basically always done, just more blatantly so.
This was a bit of a rant, but basically; I sympathize with how it must feel to not like Tera, but I feel like pretending it's just "one side is facts and logic" and one is "it's fun!!!" is not healthy discussion, or valid. I think Tera shows what people prioritize in Pokemon, and that it isn't all the same thing.
Okay
Hear me out
Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Tera Blast
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt (whatever really idk)
252 Atk Tera Ground Iron Valiant Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Slowking-Galar: 288-338 (73 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tera Ground Iron Valiant Tera Blast vs. a fucking no tera heatran: lmao
Man, I really love making meta revolutionary heat (loses elo)
edit: fixed the spreads
Honestly, its shit like this that makes me fucking hate valiant. I in no world would think it warrants a ban but I never enjoy seeing it on preview as it literally could have like 40 different moves and if all 40 of those moves are considered nothing safely switches into it. It’ll only have 4, in the end, but that terrifying moment when the Valiant comes out for the first time is certainly something.
Also, Pincurchin is shit, but Booster Val with an item keeps me up at night.
I wanted to make this post for a couple days now but between the dire claw discussion, the thread being locked & now the Tera Brick Wall discussion I felt like it'd just get overlooked.
Anyway, has anyone had success / fun with some more underrated mons? I've been unable to play the metagame much since Eleki got the boot so I've just been following the discussion here, and it seems mostly centered - understandably - about what's broken. I saw some cool posts about Torn-t & Iron Hands, but are there any others that have surprised you?
This is not a shameless way of stealing teambuilding ideas no sir
Anyway, has anyone had success / fun with some more underrated mons? I've been unable to play the metagame much since Eleki got the boot so I've just been following the discussion here, and it seems mostly centered - understandably - about what's broken. I saw some cool posts about Torn-t & Iron Hands, but are there any others that have surprised you?
also @ yall sorry for continuing the tera convo if that isnt really what people want, i just thought i'd try to give a take that i felt hadnt been represented, and because i used to be really active in tera forums to give my updated take
i know it can be basically just bickering but i tried not to do that, thank you for understanding
i know it can be basically just bickering but i tried not to do that, thank you for understanding
I’ve made several posts about Hisuigant scattered around, mon is so much fun
Brambleghast has an interesting defensive profile that can make some surprising moves vs a lot of scary mons
No one talks about Zapdos-G but CB Tera Flying hits like a freight train coming directly for your balls and unlike Flamigo it can actually live a hit sometimes.
Enamorus-T is genuinely overlooked, or at least not talked about much, and I was one of those people who overlooked it at some point. It's genuinely good into the dogs and doesn't fare too badly against pao either with the right investment and/or tera typing (lol). I think the best spread is min speed max sp.atk max hp but my opinion might change. Genuinely good movepool and pretty bulky make for a good bulky offensive threat that can maybe steal games sometimes.
I've been using this one lol
Lilligant (Lilligant-Hisui) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Victory Dance
- Close Combat
- Tera Blast
- Sleep Powder
Sleep Powder is funny af and the def boost can get p wild.
As long as u have this sets few checks gone, it's a clean sweep.
I haven't been building much, but this meta is not friendly towards "heat" picks. Aka fun/underrated.
I've seen some cool techs but none are that consistent or viable.
Hopefully that will change w time.
-
As far a keeping the convo going on recent trends, has anyone else ran into Demon Mew Version 2.0 yet?
Also, seeing an spike in Ditto in mid/high ladder.
I don't think these are good omens lol
i want to try an overquil rain team but ive been spamming screens and cant stop since zama and friends.
also idk how to build rain
Losing Zama-C is a major blow to Zama-H on a game theory level, we'll see if that holds true in practice.
GAME THEORY TIME. (No, not the math field, sorry.)
There's a saying that comes and goes, "The most dangerous thing in Pokemon is an X that you haven't scouted yet." The purest example would be past gens Greninja - Protean and Battle Bond were both OU-worthy sets on their own, but each fed power to the other. Each had its own strengths and played slightly differently, and crucially, each had different counterplay. Guessing wrong could not only cost you a mon, but if it's Battle Bond, you just created a monster - and Protean isn't much safer, because things that safely switch into Battle Bond sets could die to the stronger coverage.
This gen? Protean is nerfed in a way that doesn't touch Choice sets, which were always popular on Greninja, but there's no risk of Battle Bond (which, even if it was available, is no longer particularly scary), and Greninja has fallen out of OU. Power creep certainly doesn't help, but Greninja still has a great move pool and speed, it's still plenty viable. It's easier to play around, though, and that's cost a lot of its edge.
Zama-C runs an ID/BP set far more effectively than Zama-H can; not only does it hit harder, but it has a better typing to soak special attacks on its unboosted side. Because you don't know which you're dealing with, you need to respect both a super-bulky setup mon and the frailer, more offensive Zama-H. That means you don't know which counterplay will actually work, and there's very little that checks both forms, so you don't know what needs to be preserved. Guess wrong, and you're going to have a bad time.
But there are plenty of mons that can check most, or all, Zama-H sets. Losing Zama-C eases prediction and makes a mispredict much less punishing.
has been a surprisingly effective pao check on my recent spikestack team - i don't think it'll be good post-ban nor do i think avalugg's existence justifies pao staying in the tier - but it's pretty good for a cope mon, like the Vish-era Seismitoad.also,
is still good, since you can run it alongside legion to break through a lot of unprepared teams - as long as you're able to cover for your massive volcanion weakness.also, idk if it's considered an underrated mon, but
is very good in the current meta, even post-mage ban - especially into all those screens HO setup sweepers. it's also another good anti-weather mon, and can be pretty good vs zamazenta if it lacks substitute.I think this is like, the general standard—or at least it’s the most common set.
Effective but lacks that true dopamine power of 2hkoing a lightly chipped Skeldirge with a grass type attack. When you’re building a team with Hisuigant this is definitely the best set to use, others are just for theatrics or comedy IMO.
Still, Hisuigant’s biggest draw is theatrics. It’s an all or nothing, go for broke sweeper that can miss any attack it wants. When you’re using it you’re committing to a gigantic gamble, and because of that I prefer Tera Grass LO.
Idk, just me though. Stupid all or nothing sweepers are just so much fun to fuck with.
I like Houndstone + Gholdengo a lot, paired with hazard stack and SNeasler/Dragapult it makes lotsa progress easily on pexes
I don't think Zama-H can fill Zama-C's role on most teams outright, or at least not so effectively as to slot in and that's the extent of changes. With that said, the variety of sets Zama-H can manage without strictly compromising roles like a soft-Blanket Check to several Physicals is going to see value when Crowned and Chien-Pao leave the tier and simultaneously remove competition and reduce the chokehold on many other offensive mons.
I also think that there was a give and take with Crowned's Steel typing that Hero is capable of exploiting: becoming neutral to Fairy, Flying, and Psychic along with additional resistances never hurts, but on the flipside, Hero loses the weakness to Fighting and Ground before Tera, which makes for some significant difference alongside its access to Leftovers
(Two Switch-ins to offensive mons, one to a defensive)
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 175-207 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 294-348 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 246-290 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 145-172 (37.3 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 69-82 (21.2 - 25.2%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 116-140 (35.6 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 116-140 (29.8 - 36%) -- 45.4% chance to 3HKO
Any health saved in this role has its value even before considering passive healing on a Leftovers set (Ting-Lu admittedly was against CB instead so I wanted to do 252 HP Zama-C as well). Hero might be less oppressive overall but I still expect it to be S-Rank if not heavily controlling of offensive options in the Meta, mainly needing to see how things compare in what it comes into better-than vs worse-than its Banned Upgrade.
I'm liking destiny bond rn, it can 'solve' the coverage issue, even if you basically sac it also takes down a mon that it shouldn't in theory so your rival ends in an awkward spot by trading a mon that he didn't mean to.
- Status