Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[RoyalDispenser]

I'm interested to hear why some of yall hate stall so much. Personally, i enjoy the occasional stall match. It's a slower paced game where I've essentially got majority of the offensive pressure and I just have to get the call right. There's enough tools now that pressuring the opponent has become really easy too. Doesn't even show up on ladder that much in my experience.

Stall can be a huge time waster.

Playing as stall can be fun sometimes cause you're constantly bouncing around checks and timing heals/PP management, playing vs. it just looks like they're doing jack shit nothing and perma stone walling for double the turns it'd take to complete a normal match where the stakes for decisions are higher while in stall the stakes are basically 'is my opponent going to fuck up and make his wall suicide so i can do something?'

Its definitely not an enjoyable experience for one side, and boring as shit to watch if its both sides.

 

[Finchinator]

SV OU Viability list for the post-HOME metagame is out: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-post-home-viability-list.3722605/#post-9652463

Be sure to discuss your thoughts on what's hot and what's not in this thread!

 

[War Incarnate]

why

why is it that the first thing that I see on the Post-Home OU Viability List, on the High tier, is Galarian Articuno? What specifically does it do to warrant that ranking anyways? It's not that fast nor is it that bulky, and while Psychic/Flying has its uses defensively it has some cripplingly bad weaknesses that'd hold it back. And sure, 125 special attack is great... until you realize this thing does fuck all to Steels and especially Kingambit.

I imagine Tera helped it somewhat but I had no idea it'd help G-Arcticuno that much...

 

[WildWave]

View attachment 523755
why

why is it that the first thing that I see on the Post-Home OU Viability List, on the High tier, is Galarian Articuno? What specifically does it do to warrant that ranking anyways? It's not that fast nor is it that bulky, and while Psychic/Flying has its uses defensively it has some cripplingly bad weaknesses that'd hold it back. And sure, 125 special attack is great... until you realize this thing does fuck all to Steels and especially Kingambit.

I imagine Tera helped it somewhat but I had no idea it'd help G-Arcticuno that much...

Basically, Screens+SP Set

 

[Baloor]

View attachment 523755
why

why is it that the first thing that I see on the Post-Home OU Viability List, on the High tier, is Galarian Articuno? What specifically does it do to warrant that ranking anyways? It's not that fast nor is it that bulky, and while Psychic/Flying has its uses defensively it has some cripplingly bad weaknesses that'd hold it back. And sure, 125 special attack is great... until you realize this thing does fuck all to Steels and especially Kingambit.

I imagine Tera helped it somewhat but I had no idea it'd help G-Arcticuno that much...

resident stored power ho mon, tera fight through darks etc...

(mew and enam exists but so far testing post gear ban shows bird is more consistent.)

 

[Magcargo]

View attachment 523755
why

why is it that the first thing that I see on the Post-Home OU Viability List, on the High tier, is Galarian Articuno? What specifically does it do to warrant that ranking anyways? It's not that fast nor is it that bulky, and while Psychic/Flying has its uses defensively it has some cripplingly bad weaknesses that'd hold it back. And sure, 125 special attack is great... until you realize this thing does fuck all to Steels and especially Kingambit.

I imagine Tera helped it somewhat but I had no idea it'd help G-Arcticuno that much...

Stored Power + Tera Blast + Screens = OP Mon. Stored Power becomes like Rage Fist, can completely shred through resist. And Screens + Speed boost from Agility make it difficult to stop its snowball.

There is a reason the council is going to hold an emergency vote on it tomorrow.

 

[Finchinator]

View attachment 523755
why

why is it that the first thing that I see on the Post-Home OU Viability List, on the High tier, is Galarian Articuno? What specifically does it do to warrant that ranking anyways? It's not that fast nor is it that bulky, and while Psychic/Flying has its uses defensively it has some cripplingly bad weaknesses that'd hold it back. And sure, 125 special attack is great... until you realize this thing does fuck all to Steels and especially Kingambit.

I imagine Tera helped it somewhat but I had no idea it'd help G-Arcticuno that much...

why

why is the first thing that people do bitch here when i specifically link the simple questions thread for this very purpose of asking here or PMing me?

 

[Finchinator]

Articuno-Galar is good with Tera Blast / Stored Power and double dance on screens. If you want to discuss its merits, do so here, but PLEASE do not litter this thread with questions -- we linked the thread to do that and I will link it again here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-simple-answers-thread.3710772/

thanks

 

[Ctann]

on the topic of banning things that can be used on more than 1 Pokémon.

Kings rock: 1x abuser - cloyster - took it over the edge 41% of the time. No known other abusers to be seen. Cincinno in shambles. banned.

stored power: we are now up to the 3rd abuser getting discussed. Can’t ban it, hatterene would become 2% less viable.

light clay: we are now up to the x’th abuser in the y’th generation of strong threats being banned 1by1 in the early meta, with a lot of the strength coming from “just 1 free turn”. Light clay just makes screens a little bit more wearisome because usually 2 abusers get to make the most of it unless the turns are wasted, taunted, etc. The meta still refuses to run brick break and psychic fangs due to the niche usecase. Majority of people: Maybe screens aren’t the problem, it’s the abusers. Average user: Gf, give us more defog

Meanwhile, at GF: let’s nerf grassy glide and Rillaboom, monke too strong

 

[Mega Breloom]

Kings rock: 1x abuser - cloyster - took it over the edge 41% of the time. No known other abusers. Cincinno in shambles. banned.

The mouse will run it 100% if it were allowed, forcing to run helmet on everything, pretty exploitable with hazards since you wouldn't afford to run boots.
Weavile also would have a small niche in the tier with beat up.

 

[Ctann]

The mouse will run it 100% if it were allowed, forcing to run helmet on everything, pretty exploitable with hazards since you wouldn't afford to run boots.
Weavile also would have a small niche in the tier with beat up.

well noted, I’m just thought provoking here. Note: when kings rock was banned, Cloyster was the only known relevant abuser. Instead of banning cloyster, the item was banned. Fair, I don’t disagree. It just demonstrates that there isn’t as much rigidity in rules as is suggested.

there’s a lot of discussion about firm rules and structure around what gets banned and what doesn’t.

but there’s exceptions to every rule. And there’s always change possible in the future. Things don’t need to be so rigid.

tho understandably for the sake of consistency/cohesion and sense, things need to be simplified as much as possible.

just thought provoking a little from a different side. Personally I’m on the fence, and will play in whatever meta it is.

 

[Cuddly]

I’m surprised that Articuno-G is ranked higher than Braviary-H. Tinted Lens is a big deal and it can run same Stored Power set with option of Dazzling Gleam or simply using Hurricane. Also Tinted Lens Stored Power matters a lot.
1 Agility + 3 Calm Minds
+3 252 SpA Tinted Lens Braviary-Hisui Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Goodra-Hisui: 356-420 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
1 Agility + 5 Calm Minds
+5 252 SpA Articuno-Galar Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Goodra-Hisui: 388-457 (106.5 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You KO resists much earlier and you also just have objectively better coverage options in dealing with Dark types. You’re also not confined to just Stored Power sets for viability. You can totally use Sheer Force all out attacker, Specs, and regular Calm Mind with Esper Wing.

 

[Mega Breloom]

well noted, I’m just thought provoking here. Note: when kings rock was banned, Cloyster was the only known relevant abuser. Instead of banning cloyster, the item was banned. Fair, I don’t disagree. It just demonstrates that there isn’t as much rigidity in rules as is suggested.

there’s a lot of discussion about firm rules and structure around what gets banned and what doesn’t.

but there’s exceptions to every rule. And there’s always change possible in the future. Things don’t need to be so rigid.

tho understandably for the sake of consistency/cohesion and sense, things need to be simplified as much as possible.

just thought provoking a little from a different side. Personally I’m on the fence, and will play in whatever meta it is.

I see your point, but I personally think that banning Light clay would be like putting tape on a cracked wall and then say it is fixed.

I’m surprised that Articuno-G is ranked higher than Braviary-H. Tinted Lens is a big deal and it can run same Stored Power set with option of Dazzling Gleam or simply using Hurricane. Also Tinted Lens Stored Power matters a lot.
1 Agility + 3 Calm Minds
+3 252 SpA Tinted Lens Braviary-Hisui Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Goodra-Hisui: 356-420 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
1 Agility + 5 Calm Minds
+5 252 SpA Articuno-Galar Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Goodra-Hisui: 388-457 (106.5 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You KO resists much earlier and you also just have objectively better coverage options in dealing with Dark types. You’re also not confined to just Stored Power sets for viability. You can totally use Sheer Force all out attacker, Specs, and regular Calm Mind with Esper Wing.

Articuno has recovery so under screens can set up without much problems.

 

[Magcargo]

I see your point, but I personally think that banning Light clay would be like putting tape on a cracked wall and then say it is fixed.

Articuno has recovery so under screens can set up without much problems.

It can't run recovery. It needs to run CM, Agility, Stored Power, and Tera Blast, so its mostly going to be relying on Leftovers, which can be Knocked Off, Toxic'd, or comprimised by Stealth Rock.

 

[tigers jaw]

@ the last few pages

smogonites read the ancient foundational policy review threads on consistent tiering challenge (impossible)

 

[Ctann]

so in the current meta urshifu is quite amazing, it’s no secret.



Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Punching Glove
Ability: Unseen Fist
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Trailblaze
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat

At first I thought this set was a meme. Obviously we all know urshifu works best as with uturn right???

then I tried this urshifu set over a few games. Even on the same team as an unburden sneasler, that sneasler missed gunk shot and fainted at +2 in 4 back to back games. Just an aside, that’s an 0.16% chance… what the fuck at the crazy swings in odds over the last few days lol

whilst sneasler was busy missing gunk shot against a zapdos or breaking its teeth on a ghost type, urshifu was straight mauling everything.

This apparent meme set for urshifu is everything unburden sneasler wants to be.

1. Reliable high power STAB with surging strikes
2. Covers it’s biggest sweeping weakness with punching gloves
3. Resists priority from most users
4. Can setup on grassy terrain better than sneasler could ever dream of
5. Actual favourable typing vs the metagame staples

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Seeing Articuno high up proves for me again that maybe Stored Power in a Tera Meta is no Bueno.

 

[tigers jaw]

Seeing Articuno high up proves for me again that maybe Stored Power in a Tera Meta is no Bueno.

stored power is a red herring pal

it is, has always been, and always will be tera

 

[Wesley23675]

so in the current meta urshifu is quite amazing, it’s no secret.



Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Punching Glove
Ability: Unseen Fist
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Trailblaze
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat

At first I thought this set was a meme. Obviously we all know urshifu works best as with uturn right???

then I tried this urshifu set over a few games. Even on the same team as an unburden sneasler, that sneasler missed gunk shot and fainted at +2 in 4 back to back games. Just an aside, that’s an 0.16% chance… what the fuck at the crazy swings in odds over the last few days lol

whilst sneasler was busy missing gunk shot against a zapdos or breaking its teeth on a ghost type, urshifu was straight mauling everything.

This apparent meme set for urshifu is everything unburden sneasler wants to be.

1. Reliable high power STAB with surging strikes
2. Covers it’s biggest sweeping weakness with punching gloves
3. Resists priority from most users
4. Can setup on grassy terrain better than sneasler could ever dream of
5. Actual favourable typing vs the metagame staples

wouldn't something like tera fire or another defensive tera that isn't water be better tho? I feel like the extra damage for surging strikes doesn't seem as appealing compared to having a defensive tera where if sth that is suppoed to check urshifu switches in the turn you use trailblaze, you can tera and turn the tables into your favor and have a much easier time setting up?
And I think what differs between sneasler and urshifu is that if u wanna get speedy, u just pop sneasler with grassy seed in after a slow u turn from rillaboom, and you get +2 speed immediately, while for urshifu u have to spend a turn getting trailblaze off first

 

[Ctann]

wouldn't something like tera fire or another defensive tera that isn't water be better tho? I feel like the extra damage for surging strikes doesn't seem as appealing compared to having a defensive tera where if sth that is suppoed to check urshifu switches in the turn you use trailblaze, you can tera and turn the tables into your favor and have a much easier time setting up?
And I think what differs between sneasler and urshifu is that if u wanna get speedy, u just pop sneasler with grassy seed in after a slow u turn from rillaboom, and you get +2 speed immediately, while for urshifu u have to spend a turn getting trailblaze off first

Honestly the need for 2 turn set up is why I thought it was a meme.

but it’s not really a 2 turner, it’s usually just one or the other, or if your opponent guesses the wrong set, it’s both. Example: 30% tusk stays in ready to faint thinking it’s getting KOd, instead you trailblaze on its EQ…. But you’re supported by grassy terrain so you’re barely affected. You can now SD safely the next turn.

using Tera water allows you to get power when you can’t swords dance, example you trailblaze into a zapdos switch in and zapdos is at 65%. You’re not risking the SD obviously, and if you Tera fired or whatever it will get you into prioirty range once it volt switches or hurricanes. The power boost from water also gets you past some common things, like healthy pivot dragapult at +2. It also eases predictions against defensive Tera types like 80% rotom going Tera fairy in anticipation of the close combat.

I learned the hard way tho that some things have too much bulk….Baxcalibur survives +2 surging strikes!!! I thought it was a risk less play doing +2 punching gloves boosted, and adaptability boosted surging strikes (against an opponent who hadn’t used Tera yet) and it survived … lol.

against sub 1700 elo teams you’ve got great odds of getting both boosts tho. Most players past that will try to scout sets unless they’re forced to guess or just sacrifice a play/high risk switch in.

Tho you can pressure an opponent into being forced to guess quite easily with urshifu. This is due to the spread of meta Pokémon being very vulnerable to water/fighting STAB with some protection from static/flame body.

 

[GraylyHen94]

.View attachment 523665

"I hope there isn't a suspect" wouldn't have tricked my brain like, "I'm looking forward to the suspect" did lol

I think a lot of the community is still incredibly shell-shocked at how disappointing, lackluster, and stale SS was and are letting SV go full on Grass/Water/Ground/??? Volcarona.

A meta doesn't need an over-centralizing gimmick to stay fresh.
Megas and Z moves felt like icing on the cake, not changing the cake into a cookie cake..

D-Max was concrete proof that GF does not think about Smogon 6v6 in any capacity.
They said we're gonna make your cake giant and we said what is this a bachelor party? Have some class..
(They might have one or two developers that care about singles, but def not the gimmick team lol)

I agree it keeps a meta fresh, but so fresh that keeping up with the Tera tech chasing feels like a pointless game of cat & mouse.

We're losing mons, the skill gap is growing, MU fish is growing, survey scores are low, wins feel less earned more often than ever, losses can feel comical, and building is a nightmare.

What Tera actually does to a mon and thus the game should not be downplayed, it changes almost everything about the game.

Survey scores for fun and balance shouldn't be historically low with all the cool mons and QoL changes, they just shouldn't.

Something's wrong and I don't see why Tera is so sacred that we can't see what the meta would look like without it.

If the meta is stale and boring w/o Tera, then we can have another vote.
If Tera is so amazing and fun and the meta would die in a day without it, then what are we afraid of?
We'll be begging to have it back, right?

We can add Tera to old and new gens as well, since it's so healthy and fun for a meta to have; we might actually have to since players are going to be upset when they can't turn their Volc into a Water/Ground/??? and actually have to find a Tran switch in. Sounds scary.

Just a surprising take, I knew you were pro-Tera pre-Home but I was under the impression that would change once OU became a real meta and not some silly experiment that we've been toying with. Lando came home and is very confused about the cookie cake.

Bad faith arguing with a ridiculous claim of back porting at the end, 0/10 intellect in this post. If you're gonna argue against it provide detailed information and feelings on it not this kinda bullshit

 

[DiscoDucky]

why

why is the first thing that people do bitch here when i specifically link the simple questions thread for this very purpose of asking here or PMing me?

 

[Carolusim]

Is there any use for Moltres?
(I haven't seen anything about it)

 

[Contrary Servine]

I’d like to bring up a mon I think has a genuine niche in the post-HOME metagame: Brambleghast.

Brambleghast @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Wind Rider
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Strength Sap
- Power Whip
- Rapid Spin
- Shadow Sneak/Spikes

This set utilises what I believe are the three main advantages Brambleghast has as an anti-meta presence rn.
1.Defensive Typing.
Grass/Ghost would not normally be considered a good defensive type, but it actually matches up very consistently against many of the most potent threats, being resistant or immune to the dual STAB of Urshifu-R, Ursaluna, Great Tusk and Liligant-H. The reduced distribution of Knock Off also allows it to freely switch in against Lando, and it also matches up well against a few less common mons such as Breloom and Azumarill.
2. Wind Rider
Wind Rider gives Brambleghast immunity to wind moves. The only competitively relevant wind moves are Hurricane, Heat Wave and the genie’s storm moves, but this still allows Brambleghast to completely blank Zapdos and Torn-T, adding to its favourable match ups.
3.Rapid Spin and Strength Sap utility
Its no secret that OU is currently desperate for hazard removal, making Rapid Spin a very valuable move to have. The ability of Brambleghast to threaten spinblockers with Shadow Sneak, and to come in on hazard setters like Great Tusk and Lando makes it well suited to hazard removal. Access to the best recovery move in the game in Strength Sap allows Brambleghast to augment its admittedly atrocious natural bulk to beat Urshifu-R and Ursaluna one on one.

Calcs:
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Brambleghast: 258-304 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Brambleghast on a critical hit: 126-150 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- approx. 3HKO
0 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Brambleghast: 158-188 (50.3 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Aside from Strength Sap and Rapid Spin, Power Whip is required to threaten Urshifu-R, Great Tusk and Ursaluna. I personally like Shadow Sneak as a fourth move to pick off weakened threats using Brambleghast’s decent uninvested attack, and to chunk Gholdengo and Dragapult that try to switch in and spinblock, but Spikes is also useful utility if you want even more role compression.

TLDR; Brambleghast now has a niche as defensive utility post-HOME thanks to matching up well against many of the new threats and utility in Rapid Spin+Strength Sap

 

[LoseToRU?]

Because at that point, you're not playing Pokemon.

Pokemon was designed to be a child's first RPG, and Japanese RPGs love their luck elements - most even have a Luck stat. Luck is built into the game from the most basic elements: damage ranges, critical hits, miss chance, status effects, moves with secondary effects, abilities like Flame Body and Effect Spore...

Gutting fundamental gameplay elements isn't 'elevating the game', it's changing it to something that simply isn't Pokemon. It's also a slippery slope: if a 25% chance for a full paralysis is too much and needs to be removed, what about 70% accurate moves? 30% chance secondary effects? Do we ban Hurricane twice over, since it's both? How about Hydro Pump, 20% miss chance isn't much less than the full paralysis chance. If we ban that, how about Fire Blast and the 15% miss chance. If not, why is 25% too much but 20% is fine? How about Population Bomb or (the currently dexited) Triple Axle, which repeatedly check a 90% accuracy?

Minimum hits are 85% of the maximum (the random multiplier is 217 to 255), so if 15% is too much RNG, then do we have to change moves to deal fixed damage?

Or maybe we're OK with accuracy, regardless of the numbers. How about Crunch, and its 20% chance to drop the target's defense? That's a 1 in 5 chance to bypass a check by luck. Moonblast is a 30% chance to neuter an offensive check, is that OK? Moves like Icicle Spear, that hit a random number of times? Ancient Power is a bad move, but that's still a 10% chance for an omniboost, does it need to go, or is the low BP enough that it's not a problem?

All of this is genuinely random, and out of the player's control. Competitive Pokemon is all about risk management, to the point that I'll argue it's the single most important skill, even moreso than predicting your opponent. Things get banned when they are nothing except an increase in pure RNG, like Evasion Clause, or when the RNG becomes so overwhelming that skill stops mattering, like Moody and Swagger, but trying to eradicate luck from Pokemon leaves you with something that isn't Pokemon.

Also, I take offense at implying that I support Scald. I have done many terrible things, I have made many huge mistakes, and I have had many bad takes, but I have never - not once - supported Scald.

This kind of thought out response is what I was looking for rather than total dismal so thank you even if it's a bit of a strawman argument.

Basically this king.

I obviously like mons enough the way it is to play for this long and often, and I'm cool with the randomness of move accuracy, secondary effects- basically anything that doesn't cause a player to have a turn where they can do nothing.

Randomness adds a layer of fun, free turns do not, imo.

I know risk management is key to this game, as well as mapping out an end game, but there are games where 1-2 extra turns is insane at higher levels of play.

Spore is the main culprit right now as there really isn't a safe switch in and u can instantly get up to 3 free turns in a highly offensive meta.

Glare/Wave has always been broken it's just less broken now.

Coding Para where it only halves speed, removing spore/sleep powder/hypnosis, and freeze chance would only elevate the game.
We can agree to disagree but now we're on the same page.

Also, I was referring to your post that said you were used to the burn % before the nerf was what you were used to and thus X didn't bother you so much. I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist.

Bad faith arguing with a ridiculous claim of back porting at the end, 0/10 intellect in this post. If you're gonna argue against it provide detailed information and feelings on it not this kinda bullshit

Dude I'm just putting out fringe takes and random opinions about tera at this point.
Myself and others (who have done it much better) have already went over the fundamental issues of tera and they don't get addressed.

This post still hasn't been refuted in any meaningful way:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...d-1-oops-i-did-it-again.3712714/#post-9436219

It's literally been established that pro-tera arguments are: It's fun, it defines this gen

I've already said that if you like tera that's cool. It really isn't that big of a deal.
Just like mechanics that give you a free turn really aren't ruining the game.

I like to talk about mons, and think about optimization.

If you see a post about someone not liking tera, just say to yourself, "I like tera, I think it's fun and it defines the gen."
You don't need to take it as a personal attack and get worked up about it.

I'm just expressing my opinions and thinking out loud.
From what I see in OU chat + personal experiences + survey scores = Tera isn't as beloved or as fun as you may think it is to the average player.

It's weird how rarely I get a pro-tera response that isn't filled w vitriol. It was the same last gen w D-Max and it's ardent supporters. They would take any D-Max criticism personally. You can go back and read the boards. Literally just calm down.