Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[DaddyBuzzwole]

thats not what a box legend is by the smogon definition. its the 670 bst ones. maybe restricted legendary is a better term. and cmon you may say pikachu is in the box of a game but it surely isnt a legendary lol

i know all that, it was a joke

I spent far too long on this

View attachment 553677

oh i am 100% making my own once the stats for this month drop

 

[Finchinator]

To put it more bluntly- if the community has it their way, this generation will be Gen 5, part 2: the Tera-ing. I don't want this meta to be a hyperoffense hellhole, and I don't think anyone on the council does, either. Does the council intend on doing anything to prevent the generation from being another Gen 5 situation?

I had to separate this because this is very incorrect.

BW was hurt by overaction from the council where they decided to allow an unprecedented complex ban -- Swift Swim + Drizzle -- through Aldaron's proposal. What we are doing is entirely the opposite. So for starters, this already makes what you are saying outright wrong.

But going a step further, nobody who knows BW OU would describe it as a "hyperoffensive hellhole" -- if anything people think it has been too passive at times, but for years it has been a mixture of this and offense.

I really, really do not think you know what you are talking about.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

The tier is played by the community and the entire tiering system is based on this, meaning that the catalyst of tiering action should be the community. It does not really matter if you "agree" or "disagree" with them personally -- you cannot and we will not ignore them.

So if the community wants a dogshit unplayable tier full of broken mons, you're just going to give it to them? What if there's significant community support for legalizing something like evasion? Are we seriously at a point where the council is just going to acquiesce to whatever stupid ideas the community has?

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

I had to separate this because this is very incorrect.

BW was hurt by overaction from the council where they decided to allow an unprecedented complex ban -- Swift Swim + Drizzle -- through Aldaron's proposal. What we are doing is entirely the opposite. So for starters, this already makes what you are saying outright wrong.

But going a step further, nobody who knows BW OU would describe it as a "hyperoffensive hellhole" -- if anything people think it has been too passive at times, but for years it has been a mixture of this and offense.

I really, really do not think you know what you are talking about.

When I said "hyperoffensive hellhole" I was more describing modern OU than Gen 5. My point was that in Gen 5 there were obvious things that should've gotten banned (i.e. weather/weather abusing abilities, latios, keldeo, gems, etc.) that didn't and there were things that were brought down into OU (shaymin, genesect, etc.) that shouldn't have been. The comment about Gen 5 wasn't to say that Gen 9 plays identically to it, but to bring up that Gen 5 is generally thought of as a bad generation and that Gen 9 will be similarly remembered if the community gets their way, even if it's by a different method i.e. refusing to ban Tera/gambit/other dumb things vs Gen 5's issue of what was previously mentioned on top of stupid rulings like Aldaron's proposal.

 

[Finchinator]

So if the community wants a dogshit unplayable tier full of broken mons, you're just going to give it to them? What if there's significant community support for legalizing something like evasion? Are we seriously at a point where the council is just going to acquiesce to whatever stupid ideas the community has?

dude it is literally a tier played by the community, i do not know why you could possibly be so offended by the notion that they should have significant decision making influence. they always have with suspects and i am simply argung data generated by them should guide decisions.

you continue to make disingenuous comparisons that are not making your point.

if you want me to disregard the community, i would love to start by getting on with my evening and not continuing to engage because this is getting unreasonable on your behalf.

 

[Finchinator]

When I said "hyperoffensive hellhole" I was more describing modern OU than Gen 5. My point was that in Gen 5 there were obvious things that should've gotten banned (i.e. weather/weather abusing abilities, latios, keldeo, gems, etc.) that didn't and there were things that were brought down into OU (shaymin, genesect, etc.) that shouldn't have been. The comment about Gen 5 wasn't to say that Gen 9 plays identically to it, but to bring up that Gen 5 is generally thought of as a bad generation and that Gen 9 will be similarly remembered if the community gets their way, even if it's by a different method.

dude is just making up things as he goes now

you brought up gen5 and said we are copying their process. i proved this wholly incorrect. now you are pivoting entirely.

the useful life of this conversation is over. we are making a new survey because recent data is better than outdated data. we are using community data to begin with because we are not ignoring the very people who play our tier. it is very simple. goodnight.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

So if the community wants a dogshit unplayable tier full of broken mons, you're just going to give it to them? What if there's significant community support for legalizing something like evasion? Are we seriously at a point where the council is just going to acquiesce to whatever stupid ideas the community has?

my sister in christ you are "the community"

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

dude is just making up things as she* goes now

you brought up gen5 and said we are copying their process. i proved this wholly incorrect. now you are pivoting entirely.

the useful life of this conversation is over. we are making a new survey because recent data is better than outdated data. we are using community data to begin with because we are not ignoring the very people who play our tier. it is very simple. goodnight.

I never said we were copying their process, and I'm sorry if that's what it sounded like I was trying to say. In either case it sounds like this discussion's over so I'm not going to bother arguing any more points.

 

[MrAldo]

Thats kind of like the whole point, there is no "correct" term for a good playable meta, it is all based on opinion and honestly the most sensible way to approach things is by asking the community that plays the game more than anyone else from a casual to competitive level how do they feel about the meta and with that information decide what to do. It is important to try to make the approach as communal as possible cause your "perfect view of the meta" is something that couldnt be shared by some people. There are moments where a dictatorial move could be required, but this isnt the moment, and it is certainly not a good idea to set up that precedent.

This is an important decision and someone that I can agree on because on how DLC directly affects OU immediately. It is important to be carefully on how handle things cause otherwise some bans could be kind of pointless and what could make a perceivable breach of confidence from a council that in many cases it will not have the solution that will please anybody but, it could do something that could please the majority, and the rest will have to deal with that.

Thats just how it is. Glad Baxcalibur is broken, Manaphy just makes the tier much more offensive invalidating kind of anything defensively, HAZARDS, and Ogerpon Fire Mask is insane.

 

[Bakugames]

What mons have you guys been using to deal with bm ursa? I currently use cm valiant, but its finnicky and better as a revenge killer. In general if I already got set up theres not much it can do, but if im the one switching in it hurts like a truck

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Thats kind of like the whole point, there is no "correct" term for a good playable meta

yes there is. a good playable meta, according to "the under-1200's official smogon glossary", is defined as "one where i win every time and anything i lose to gets banned"

 

[Kingdra7]

It's the same awful argument people have been using to defend Baxcalibur lately. The Pokemon is objectively broken, it was rightfully banned, and they need to get over it. We can all tell they're not actually arguing about the process and we all know that if it hadn't got banned, or if a Pokemon they disliked got banned, we wouldn't be talking about the quickban process whatsoever.

Not at all. This isn't going away. People are already coming for other veil users. Bax went from not on the radar to quickbanned overnight, and that then raises questions as to "why". I don't really care about bax - there are other sweepers that can step in. I can't speak for the bitching other people are doing, but my bitching is that Bax was a veil issue, which really is a "new metagame issue". It will sort itself out in time, and quickbans don't allow that time. Now that a quickban has happened, the veil issue will get worked on by the larger hivemind that is the SV 6v6 community. I just wonder if people finding good veil counterplay would have brought Bax back to reasonable levels. It being gone isn't a big issue. Not letting a metagame settle is an issue, especially since Clay was on the radar last, not Bax.

 

[KamenOH]

call me a dumbass cus ur probably right, but I think people just need to fuckin adapt. we adapted last time veil reared its ugly head, we adapted to fuckin kingambit, and we can adapt to damn near anythin else. hell, volcarona taught me the phrase defensive counterplay, so im already biased as hell for the moff.

 

[Finchinator]

When we banned Volcarona after Pokemon HOME, there was an outcry about the ban. You probably saw the pages of posts questioning the decision or the outrage on PS.

There were people upset at the process and there were people upset about our opinions -- the former is very important to me and what was clear about it all is that we needed to do a better job meeting the needs of our playerbase through executing the tiering processes.

As a leader, it is my job to be reflective of the past and sometimes predictive of the future. We were intending to have another vote today or tomorrow based off of the initial survey results, but after some discussion, we reached a new conclusion.

• The current survey data is not fully indicative of the current metagame as it took place prior to the Baxcalibur ban and an early metagame develops so rapidly, meaning 5 days can see a lot of shifts.
• We do not have an overwhelming opinion on other Pokemon from the community and do not want to reach for a ban or discourage activity out of being overly cautious.
  • A couple of Pokemon reside between 3.2 and 3.7, meaning they could realistically go either way.
• We want data that is indicative of the current metagame and potentially with a more telling data point.
• We want to hear information on every possible Pokemon that could warrant tiering attention.

As such, we are going to run another survey soon and then consider voting (or suspecting) later this week with inclusive and current data rather than rushing to another ban like many feel we did last time around. Stay tuned.

On this note, survey results are up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/#post-9788448

 

[Morkal]

On this note, survey results are up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/#post-9788448

I've had more problems facing down Ogerpon-Wellspring compared to Hearthflame, I'm surprised it's catching more attention. Grass/Fire is great offensive typing, but Grass/Water is honestly just as nasty.

Speaking of Fire/Water - Weather; how have you all been feeling about Sun, Rain, Sand, and Snow lately? Are there any abusers you've all been enjoying in particular?

Shiftry @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Wind Rider
Tera Type: Rock (or Ground for total immunity to all of Zap's moves, thanks Srn and Magcargo )
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tailwind
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Rock Slide​

Ever since Shiftry got Wind Rider I've been having a ton of fun with it on my Rain teams. For those who don't know, Wind Rider is an ability that increases Shiftry's attack by +1 whenever it's hit by a wind move/when Tailwind activates (and also makes Shiftry immune to those offensive moves); being immune to moves like Blizzard, Heat Wave, and Hurricane is a godsend for Shiftry and being able to simultaneously boost both its attack and speed while having the ability to further blank some of its most common checks/counters with Tera Rock Slide is fantastic. The Shiftry buff was greatly appreciated

 

[Baloor]

i am really liking this iteration of sv ou so far, way more than i liked predlc. few takes of the new toys; toxic trio are thankfully ass idt anybody wanted to play a tier where shit got toxic'd randomly, bursaluna is really good but seeing a bit of a overreaction imo, waterpon is probably the most consistent of the ogrepon quadruplets but not rly broken it adds a lot of nice utility to the tier offensively and defensively, rockpon is rly underexplored, grass pon is cool but pretty whatever, manaphy is good but really really overrated thankfully we didnt overreact and quickban it, kommoo is incredibly fun to use, infernape and empoleon are also pretty underexplored, gliscor is fucking awesome, garchomp feels like a whole new mon with scale shot, clef is "good" but situational, alolamola panic was so far very unwarranted.

I left firepon out of the list due this next section letting me go into more detail.

the "watchlist"

: while i do think is incredibly more consistent in the most matchups making it the better of the pons, firepon find itself in this weird spot where offensive orientated teams can manage it pretty well while it can smash through fatter teams way too consistently. we've seen similar mons in the past that can do this but they usually have particular flaws such as their speed or being forced to run some kind of set that is otherwise a hinderace. In firepons case this isn't really a problem, it has a pretty good speed tier which can nullify a lot of tools that fatter teams would use to otherwise deal with it and its best overall set is the one that does the damage on bulkier structures. It's not like firepon is a particular niche pick either that only sees use to counter-team fat, firepon is in a pretty good spot overall typically finding itself or its water counterpart of the majority of builds, especially offense, at the moment. fat teams do have a few tools to deal with it in all fairness such as random tera dragon mons, in particular dondozo, but a mon forcing you to tera isn't exactly ideal and in most cases not named dozo you're liking going to get hurt pretty bad by play rough since its incredibly common. Another form of counterplay fat has is hazards due to firepons inability to hold boots, which have always been a incredibly defining part of SVs gameplay loop and while this is obviously the biggest hinderance to the mon, offense just can get hazards up way more consistently. These characteristics really make offense noticeably dominating at the moment as having such a common mon being such a nuisance to a playstyle is less than ideal if you're hoping to run it, while offense has a ton of natural counterplay which makes it way more appealing to use. If you're somebody that enjoys using offense like myself, firepon isn't really a issue but I also feel like the way firepon makes the tier learn towards offense is pretty oppressive and doesn't really suggest a healthy mon. Firepon finds itself in a weird spot where its not really hard for one playstyle to deal with at all but makes wanting to use certain structures like balance and less offensive orientated BO really hard to justify, which is a huge red flag of a unhealthy mon but maybe not a noticeably over the top broken one. While my tiering philosophy usually aims towards ideally having most playstyles in a tier generally on the same level and while I do feel like removing firepon is overall beneficial for SV OU, i'm still on the fence about this as firepon is also just the cutest (and has some particularly reliable counterplay even though the vast majority of it is on offense teams), though it does top my list of things to watch right now.

just for clarity, i find waterpon nets the most consistent matchups compared to any pon, being useful vs just about anything but also not overwhelming. where as firepon has a pretty just average mu into HO due to the natural counterplay but an absurdly good mu into fatter teams. This conclusion means that while I feel firepon is more restrictive than waterpon is, waterpon is naturally more consistent with a better mu into offense making it technically "better". both are extremely good but i feel the wording might confuse some.

: i dont feel particularly strongly about banning this mon at the moment, its worth mentioning as some people do consider it more annoying to deal with than firepon. i think this mon is just incredibly good at what it does but kind of suffers for 4mss and slow mon syndrome which is noticeably a detriment to it when using it. its worth watching this mon still as I feel it could get out of control pretty quickly if theres some kind of meta shift that favors it but right now it just feels like a top mon to me. that said if you some how manage to get more than two cms i can see why people think its giga broken but i dont think the super offense based tier right now allows it to set up that much. the bulky set can feel like it never dies sometimes but i feel we also have ample ways to deal with it as we have dealt with more annoying "this shit never dies" pokemon like tinglu and dozo before and in comparison its just not as annoying to kill, especially with moonlight being blocked by weather. I know people will say vacuum wave is bad and not to use it, bursa doesn't have 4mss etc.. but i do feel vacuum wave is a genuinely fine option on it and has done me well in practice. I also feel there is other options on bursa other than just cm moonlight blood moon ep vacuum wave, which is why i mentioned the 4mss bit.

: mentioning gambit here because its still just as good and still does the same thing it did before. i dont feel inclined to ban it right now though, which is different from how I felt pre dlc. This I feel is mostly because we have more diversity in all structures in general at the moment and a few more ways to handle it which didnt exist before, not seeing gambit on every team nowadays is definitely nice. i feel gambit does extremely benefit from firepon in the tier though as in tandem they can pretty much smash through the majority of bulkier teams, while my thoughts above about firepon were in a vacuum, I will mention here that I find the core of firepon + gambit extremely annoying and restrictive. similar to bursaluna though, it just feels like a top mon at the moment that might get out of control if there is a metagame shift that favors it and is worth watching due to it solely because it is kingambit.

tera: will round out the bottom of my list just because of how controversial the topic is making it always getting watched. though I will say, even though i have gone on record on saying im not really a tera enjoyer and i do feel like id still ban, tera as a whole does not feel that bad at the moment right now (september 19th, 2023) compared to the less diverse, gambit dominated meta that was predlc sv ou. i'm currently reevaluating my thoughts on the mechanic and its possible my gripes were more with gambit the the mechanic itself?

 

[Kingdra7]

call me a dumbass cus ur probably right, but I think people just need to fuckin adapt. we adapted last time veil reared its ugly head, we adapted to fuckin kingambit, and we can adapt to damn near anythin else. hell, volcarona taught me the phrase defensive counterplay, so im already biased as hell for the moff.

More than that, people need to not be such haters on counterplay. Veil a problem? We've got court to steal, we've got weather to battle, we've got strong priority and fast taunt, we've got toxic gas to deny weather/defog on dhengo, we've got ways to break them, ways to bypass them. There's more that I didn't think of, and much more that nobody has found yet. Not to mention, screens let a sweeper get a +1 in? We've got phat Unaware mons hanging around everywhere.

Mention any of that though, and suddenly "bruh shitmons shouldn't be in OU" "brick break is suboptimal" "sand is RU shit" "not splashable" "doesn't fit on all teamstyles (HO)". My friends, 475-525BST total pokemon are not shitmons, they can play a role. We can run moves with less than 80bp and "just" threaten a 2ko instead. A tier with all four weathers and all four terrains is possible. Ban what needs banning, but posts complaining that counterplay doesn't exist in OU are missing why tiers shift to begin with.

 

[Moyashi]

we adapted to fuckin kingambit

Gambit is still hated pretty widely, and even no ban voters admitted to regretting not banning it.

we adapted last time veil reared its ugly head

Veil didn't have any extremely potent abusers like Bax or Manaphy (or arguably Ogerpon-H). It was possible to adapt to veil last gen because the threats weren't so polarizing. And bax was a problem without veil anyways.

It's possible to adapt to just about anything. But that doesn't mean those adaptations are going to result in a healthy metagame. And in cases like Bax, it wasn't.

Mention any of that though, and suddenly "bruh shitmons shouldn't be in OU" "brick break is suboptimal" "sand is RU shit" "not splashable" "doesn't fit on all teamstyles (HO)". My friends, 475-525BST total pokemon are not shitmons, they can play a role. We can run moves with less than 80bp and "just" threaten a 2ko instead. A tier with all four weathers and all four terrains is possible. Ban what needs banning, but posts complaining that counterplay doesn't exist in OU are missing why tiers shift to begin with.

Brick break is a terrible move, sand is awful, yeah. You don't seem to get why suggesting these options is just not working. You compromise general effectiveness by running brick break and give up a crucial moveslot, doing nothing in non veil match ups. Sand is genuinely just not good. And lower tier "shitmons" aren't really acceptable either because they don't carry their weight in match ups that atent the one you specifically put it on a team for. You restrict teambuilding and put yourself at a disadvantage for running an otherwise mediocre mon to handle broken strats.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Bax went from not on the radar to quickbanned overnight

that's not quite true, people were talking about it at the tail end of pre-dlc too. it made its way onto one of the surveys and i even have vague recollections of some council member or other mentioning it as the next thing they would have focused on after gambit if they'd had more time. bax was 100% a point of contention before dlc

call me a dumbass cus ur probably right, but I think people just need to fuckin adapt. we adapted last time veil reared its ugly head, we adapted to fuckin kingambit, and we can adapt to damn near anythin else. hell, volcarona taught me the phrase defensive counterplay, so im already biased as hell for the moff.

we did not adapt to kingambit. in fact, kingambit adapted to us whenever we tried to work our way around it

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

call me a dumbass cus ur probably right, but I think people just need to fuckin adapt. we adapted last time veil reared its ugly head, we adapted to fuckin kingambit, and we can adapt to damn near anythin else. hell, volcarona taught me the phrase defensive counterplay, so im already biased as hell for the moff.

We adapted to dracovish too, doesn't mean it's necessarily good to keep these things around. If veil has been popping up all gen every time there's something else obviously broken in the tier, or something discovered, it needs to be looked at. The only legitimate argument against action has been a lack of community support. "Wait for it to pass", and "it hasn't been a problem before" are the only other argument posted and both are weak.

 

[ant4456]

i am really liking this iteration of sv ou so far, way more than i liked predlc. few takes of the new toys; toxic trio are thankfully ass idt anybody wanted to play a tier where shit got toxic'd randomly, bursaluna is really good but seeing a bit of a overreaction imo, waterpon is probably the most consistent of the ogrepon quadruplets but not rly broken it adds a lot of nice utility to the tier offensively and defensively, rockpon is rly underexplored, grass pon is cool but pretty whatever, manaphy is good but really really overrated thankfully we didnt overreact and quickban it, kommoo is incredibly fun to use, infernape and empoleon are also pretty underexplored, gliscor is fucking awesome, garchomp feels like a whole new mon with scale shot, clef is "good" but situational, alolamola panic was so far very unwarranted.

I left firepon out of the list due this next section letting me go into more detail.

the "watchlist"

: while i do think is incredibly more consistent in the most matchups making it the better of the pons, firepon find itself in this weird spot where offensive orientated teams can manage it pretty well while it can smash through fatter teams way too consistently. we've seen similar mons in the past that can do this but they usually have particular flaws such as their speed or being forced to run some kind of set that is otherwise a hinderace. In firepons case this isn't really a problem, it has a pretty good speed tier which can nullify a lot of tools that fatter teams would use to otherwise deal with it and its best overall set is the one that does the damage on bulkier structures. It's not like firepon is a particular niche pick either that only sees use to counter-team fat, firepon is in a pretty good spot overall typically finding itself or its water counterpart of the majority of builds, especially offense, at the moment. fat teams do have a few tools to deal with it in all fairness such as random tera dragon mons, in particular dondozo, but a mon forcing you to tera isn't exactly ideal and in most cases not named dozo you're liking going to get hurt pretty bad by play rough since its incredibly common. Another form of counterplay fat has is hazards due to firepons inability to hold boots, which have always been a incredibly defining part of SVs gameplay loop and while this is obviously the biggest hinderance to the mon, offense just can get hazards up way more consistently. These characteristics really make offense noticeably dominating at the moment as having such a common mon being such a nuisance to a playstyle is less than ideal if you're hoping to run it, while offense has a ton of natural counterplay which makes it way more appealing to use. If you're somebody that enjoys using offense like myself, firepon isn't really a issue but I also feel like the way firepon makes the tier learn towards offense is pretty oppressive and doesn't really suggest a healthy mon. Firepon finds itself in a weird spot where its not really hard for one playstyle to deal with at all but makes wanting to use certain structures like balance and less offensive orientated BO really hard to justify, which is a huge red flag of a unhealthy mon but maybe not a noticeably over the top broken one. While my tiering philosophy usually aims towards ideally having most playstyles in a tier generally on the same level and while I do feel like removing firepon is overall beneficial for SV OU, i'm still on the fence about this as firepon is also just the cutest (and has some particularly reliable counterplay even though the vast majority of it is on offense teams), though it does top my list of things to watch right now.

just for clarity, i find waterpon nets the most consistent matchups compared to any pon, being useful vs just about anything but also not overwhelming. where as firepon has a pretty just average mu into HO due to the natural counterplay but an absurdly good mu into fatter teams. This conclusion means that while I feel firepon is more restrictive than waterpon is, waterpon is naturally more consistent with a better mu into offense making it technically "better". both are extremely good but i feel the wording might confuse some.

: i dont feel particularly strongly about banning this mon at the moment, its worth mentioning as some people do consider it more annoying to deal with than firepon. i think this mon is just incredibly good at what it does but kind of suffers for 4mss and slow mon syndrome which is noticeably a detriment to it when using it. its worth watching this mon still as I feel it could get out of control pretty quickly if theres some kind of meta shift that favors it but right now it just feels like a top mon to me. that said if you some how manage to get more than two cms i can see why people think its giga broken but i dont think the super offense based tier right now allows it to set up that much. the bulky set can feel like it never dies sometimes but i feel we also have ample ways to deal with it as we have dealt with more annoying "this shit never dies" pokemon like tinglu and dozo before and in comparison its just not as annoying to kill, especially with moonlight being blocked by weather. I know people will say vacuum wave is bad and not to use it, bursa doesn't have 4mss etc.. but i do feel vacuum wave is a genuinely fine option on it and has done me well in practice. I also feel there is other options on bursa other than just cm moonlight blood moon ep vacuum wave, which is why i mentioned the 4mss bit.

: mentioning gambit here because its still just as good and still does the same thing it did before. i dont feel inclined to ban it right now though, which is different from how I felt pre dlc. This I feel is mostly because we have more diversity in all structures in general at the moment and a few more ways to handle it which didnt exist before, not seeing gambit on every team nowadays is definitely nice. i feel gambit does extremely benefit from firepon in the tier though as in tandem they can pretty much smash through the majority of bulkier teams, while my thoughts above about firepon were in a vacuum, I will mention here that I find the core of firepon + gambit extremely annoying and restrictive. similar to bursaluna though, it just feels like a top mon at the moment that might get out of control if there is a metagame shift that favors it and is worth watching due to it solely because it is kingambit.

tera: will round out the bottom of my list just because of how controversial the topic is making it always getting watched. though I will say, even though i have gone on record on saying im not really a tera enjoyer and i do feel like id still ban, tera as a whole does not feel that bad at the moment right now (september 19th, 2023) compared to the less diverse, gambit dominated meta that was predlc sv ou. i'm currently reevaluating my thoughts on the mechanic and its possible my gripes were more with gambit the the mechanic itself?

ogrepon rock mega underrated

getting a defense boost and just saying fuck you to kingambit sucker punch is enough to make a grown person cry

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

ogrepon rock mega underrated

getting a defense boost and just saying fuck you to kingambit sucker punch is enough to make a grown person cry

actually, it's tera underrated. it would only be mega underrated if this were gen 6 or 7

 

[Guyoftheego]

The survey results didn't include the scores for Darkrai and Urshifu, which is disappointing. If Finch is still around, it'd be cool if we could get some insight into why those scores weren't included in the survey post.

 

[Bakugames]

The survey results didn't include the scores for Darkrai and Urshifu, which is disappointing. If Finch is still around, it'd be cool if we could get some insight into why those scores weren't included in the survey post.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Once it has -2 Defense from Scale Shot, it's very vunerable to priority moves such as Scizor's Bullet Punch and Infernape's Mach Punch if they have a Choice Band and there isn't Snow and Aurora Veil in Baxcalibur's side.

Just wanted to mention that Baxcalibur needs to use Scale Shot four times under snow and Aurora Veil to return to its baseline defense.