Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Joseph Gomes]

I don't think Hearthflame and Wellspring should be compared. They play very differently and both are better than the other in their own ways. The only issue is them competing due to species clause, but they have different counterpart and niche overall.

Hearthflame is obviously more 'broken', but I don't know if it's better than Wellspring, as Wellspring is more splashable. Both have their pros and cons

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

as Wellspring is more splashable.

heh, i get it. because she's a water-type

so as to not make this a silly one-liner, i've added a second line

 

[Morkal]

except that enough dnb voters changed their mind that the suspect results were basically invalidated almost immediately, and gambit has benefited a lot from the dlc even though it didn't get any useful new toys of its own. at least an inclusion on the survey was warranted, certainly over fucking gliscor

i have to respectfully disagree with… well, all of this.

• water absorb isn't "arguably better" on a water quad-resist than mold breaker is on anything
• grass/fire is better offensively, by a long shot—it hits 527 mons supereffectively and is resisted by 128 mons, as opposed to grass/water, which only hits 354 mons supereffectively and is resisted by 190 mons. this is before factoring in abilities, which the grass/fire coverage happens to ignore
• grass/fire does have worse weaknesses and resistances than grass/water (especially the rock weakness with no possibility of boots), but it's also got 4 resistances to grass/water's 3, plus a burn immunity, so they're closer to even than you'd think
• they can both have actual longevity if you run synthesis or horn leech. synthesis is actually pretty easy to run on ogerpon-hookhandcardoor in the sun, since after a swords dance and tera (at the appropriate time) you can just punch through resists instead of doing loser things like "running coverage"
• ogerpon-hearingloss has the same damage output under sun as ogerpon-wolverine has under rain, with the bonus of being able to heal 66% with synthesis instead of 25% (if you want to run that, y'know, for longevity), and the second bonus of having a whole cavalcade of protosynthesis mons to back her up

i really don't think ogerpon-wetmask is a problem at all, at least not as things stand right now

All fair points but I want to highlight a few specific things -

Sure Grass/Fire hits more offensively super effective-wise, but Grass/Water hits some critical threats super effectively that Grass/Fire doesn't such as Bulky Cinderace, Unaware Clodsire, Glimmora, Gliscor, Heatran, Infernape, Iron Moth, Landorus-T, Moltres, Foger (Tera'd), and Torkoal (along with smacking Pokemon like Ting-Lu even harder under Rain than Foger ever could).

Speaking of Rain - before Foger teras, it has a neutrality to Fire-type attacks (which if Sun is up, can be exploited by faster Fire-type attacks from Pokemon like Scarf Heatran), while Woger is always immune to incoming Rain-boosted Water attacks and creates additional longevity options thanks to Water Absorb's HP. Sure it loses out on Synthesis, but, honestly, I've never found that Foger or Woger really have time to run recovery outside of Horn Leech to begin with.

 

[mr.pink88]

I've found that Gliscor without Roost is extremely exploitable by Pokemon like Woger (who also easily handles Gliscor's Tera Water variant that's been rising in frequency), but if it takes out various Pokemon that plague it, it can definitely be a bit of a nuisance and the addition of Spikes was quite nice.

Personally, there are five Pokemon I have my eye on along with Shiftry and Mightyena (one of my big analysis posts will be coming soon); I'll order them from top to bottom as most potential to very niche specific.

View attachment 553881​

You'll be happy about this mr.pink88 as Swords Dance Iron Fist Tera Electric Thunder Punch is insane and allows Infernape to reach some impressive feats like OHKOing multiple variants of Toxapex and OHKOing Alomomola with chip damage. STAB Drain Punch feasts on Gambit and other threats, while Infernape has access to Raging Fury (basically, Fire-type Outrage) to avoid the longevity problems of Flare Blitz if that's an issue for your teams. It's easily one of the best returning old mons and this is the best Infernape has been in OU in a very long time.

View attachment 553883​

A fantastic physically defensive mon with a lot of coverage and utility options, along with superb defensive typing and two fantastic abilities (I run Levitate because the Ground immunity opens up so many more options for defensive counterplay - such as turning Great Tusk from checking Weezing-G to being checked by Weezing-G. Really underrated mon that has a strong niche if you can play around its flaws (very exploitable Speed and Special Defense).

View attachment 553884View attachment 553885​

Ribombee and Vikavolt are both niche but strong Pokemon in their own right that made Sticky Webs an actual viable playstyle again. Bug/Fairy is great coverage (and Ribombee's speed tier rules in the era of the Ogers), while Vikavolt's nuclear Special Attack, Levitate ability, and powerful slow Volt Switches are great utility for a team.

View attachment 553886​

While I love Dusknoir, his niche is extremely specific to one type of set - max investment in SpD and HP allows it to 1v1 Calm Mind Ursaluna Blood Moon with careful play thanks to unique access to Haze, Pain Split, and Will-O-Wisp (the attacking move is up to you, I usually just run Poltergeist to whomp Gholdengo but it has other offensive options).

can't wait for the in-depth ape analysis lmao

 

[Morkal]

can't wait for the in-depth ape analysis lmao

I'm not doing an in-depth Ape analysis, I'm doing an in-depth OU Mightyena analysis (I'm sorry if my wording was confusing on that, I edited the original post just now to clarify that) and then an in-depth Volbeat analysis later on - but if you like, here's the OU Infernape set I've been running most commonly on my teams -

Infernape @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Iron Fist
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Raging Fury
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch

Quick Damage Calculations

252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Drain Punch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 436-516 (109 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Infernape Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 252-296 (66.6 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Infernape Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 500-590 (132.2 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Tera Electric Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 278-330 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Tera Electric Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 420-494 (78.6 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Empoleon: 512-606 (137.6 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 324-384 (80.1 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[KamenOH]

If you were running defensive Great Tusk, stop.
We are nosediving into Gliscor Spikes Balance Hell at record speeds.

Its slow, its bulky, it doesmt directly force progress, its blatant stall and as such should be banned but the council wouldnt like it

 

[coral fan]

current metagame thoughts

deserves a quickban

these mons are extremely broken with mask boost, they're both super restrictive in the builder and very unfun to play against in battle. i cannot see the tier being healthy or fun with these guys around

deserves a suspect

this mon is very restrictive but it's also relatively easily revenge killed and vulnerable to encore, haze, whirlwind, etc that we've all already been using for cresselia, so it's like still borderline imo.

these guys are similarly absurdly strong and fast and unwallable but they're not quite on the same level as the water and fire pons. These guys could end up being the Karts of gen 9, ie very restrictive physical grasses that force corvs on every team but theyre kinda balanced in practice

[Tera]
i personally do not believe a full Tera ban will realistically happen. but i think it's worth trying out a suspect test anyway, and give us options like tera blast ban (to bring back Volcarona and Regieleki and make Kingambit more manageable) as well as tera preview (to as direct votes (maybe ask both individually in surveys first to gauge interest?))


please consider resuspecting him after the new guys are dealt with and a verdict on tera has been reached.

not problematic right now
i dont see spikes balance as a problem yet and if it is, then it's probably ghold's fault for killing defog
not an issue imo
this guy is good but not broken. not much better than the regular ursaluna, rain and snow nerf its moonlight, protectspam annoy its bloodmoon, it always feels like it wants extra items or moves but it cant fit them. at best it gets a kill then trades for a second, at worst it does literally nothing all game
all also restrictive, but do not need council action rn

 

[Finchinator]

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ninetales-Alola? - 3 (This frustrates me)

I don't want Ninetales-A to be suspected, I want Light Clay suspected. I've been saying it since Gen 9 OU started, and it's only going to get worse with DLC 1 and even more so with DLC 2.

Light Clay never gained close to enough support to be looked at prior to Ninetales-Alola was in the tier; it was discussed before, but there was never a serious amount of support for it within surveys to the point that it approached ban or suspect likelihoods that register. Given this, we cannot outright assume that Light Clay is a broken element even if something needed to happen right now. The new element is the Pokemon that has the convenient application of Light Clay, which is Ninetales-Alola thanks to Aurora Veil.

In accordance with any tiering precedent or guidelines, we would have to look into Ninetales-Alola prior to Light Clay. This is not something that is up for debate either unless you wish to rewrite general tiering history and overall tiering guidelines, which goes well beyond the scope of OU or this situation.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

unless you wish to rewrite general tiering history

oh don't tempt me, i've got time powers. watch, i'll go back and make the kingambit suspect fail just to prove it

edit: by god. what have i fucking done. this is worse than the time i retroactively made lavos lose smogon classic v because he sassed me after beating me with jirachi flinchax

 

[Morkal]

Light Clay never gained close to enough support to be looked at prior to Ninetales-Alola was in the tier; it was discussed before, but there was never a serious amount of support for it within surveys to the point that it approached ban or suspect likelihoods that register. Given this, we cannot outright assume that Light Clay is a broken element even if something needed to happen right now. The new element is the Pokemon that has the convenient application of Light Clay, which is Ninetales-Alola thanks to Aurora Veil.

In accordance with any tiering precedent or guidelines, we would have to look into Ninetales-Alola prior to Light Clay. This is not something that is up for debate either unless you wish to rewrite general tiering history and overall tiering guidelines, which goes well beyond the scope of OU or this situation.

That's fair; after thinking about it for a bit, I can see how Atales would enable a far easier Aurora Veil setup than other users - I've just always felt that screens teams are pushed over the edge by Light Clay which enables a vast array of Pokemon that could otherwise be handled to reach disproportionately unhealthy levels

 

[CheesyBrie]

Has anyone had any success with Sinistcha?
I'm not really sure it has any niche, but with sorta comparable stats to glim and ghold as well as three (fighting, normal, fire) immunities, or a pseudo-regenerator ability, I was wondering if it does anything in OU?
EDIT: I misread Hospitality, which only heals the partner pokemon and not itself, so heatproof is its only singles ability.

 

[njnp]

Hi, banning Gholdengo will not solve this tiers hazard problem. This has been discussed plenty so I'm not gonna restart the argument, but the mindset that removing Gholdengo will solve the tiers hazard problem is in my opinion not correct. What can solve this tiers hazard problem is having fewer unhealthy hazard setters that lead to a centralizing metagame where teams are filled with boots or users that avoid spikes (flying type/levitate) that were showcased heavily during OLT. Stresh discussed this issue in detail in his post. Gliscor is a perfect hazard setter for this current metagame as it's able to pressure both of the prominent gatekeepers Great Tusk & Cinderace. A very very important thing it is able to do that Ting-Lu and Sam-H can not is avoid hazards itself and have consistent recovery thanks to its ability poison heal. Gliscor is not going to instantly win you a game like Ogrepon or Blood Moon but when played properly it can slowly and confidently take your opponent's team down. Gliscor greatly benefits from the ban of Baxcalibur and welcomes its removal from the tier as it was one of the prominent measures against it. You could say to yourself its spike setting set is too passive, Gliscor doesn't have to run that set. It has balance-breaking taunt sets and sword dance breaking sets at its disposal. The main reason I wanted it included on the Survey is because I personally view it on the same spectrum as Radar. Gliscor is the perfect balance/stall Pokemon that any enjoyer of those playstyles has been waiting for to make gameplay much easier for them. Gliscor exacerbates this tiers hazard problem and makes you wish Ting Lu was the only reliable stacking ground again.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Hi, banning Gholdengo will not solve this tiers hazard problem. This has been discussed plenty so I'm not gonna restart the argument, but the mindset that removing Gholdengo will solve the tiers hazard problem is in my opinion not correct. What can solve this tiers hazard problem is having fewer unhealthy hazard setters that lead to a centralizing metagame where teams are filled with boots or users that avoid spikes (flying type/levitate) that were showcased heavily during OLT. Stresh discussed this issue in detail in his post. Gliscor is a perfect hazard setter for this current metagame as it's able to pressure both of the prominent gatekeepers Great Tusk & Cinderace. A very very important thing it is able to do that Ting-Lu and Sam-H can not is avoid hazards itself and have consistent recovery thanks to its ability poison heal. Gliscor is not going to instantly win you a game like Ogrepon or Blood Moon but when played properly it can slowly and confidently take your opponent's team down. Gliscor greatly benefits from the ban of Baxcalibur and welcomes its removal from the tier as it was one of the prominent measures against it. You could say to yourself its spike setting set is too passive, Gliscor doesn't have to run that set. It has balance-breaking taunt sets and sword dance breaking sets at its disposal. The main reason I wanted it included on the Survey is because I personally view it on the same spectrum as Radar. Gliscor is the perfect balance/stall Pokemon that any enjoyer of those playstyles has been waiting for to make gameplay much easier for them. Gliscor exacerbates this tiers hazard problem and makes you wish Ting Lu was the only reliable stacking ground again.

i agree that banning gholdengo won't solve the hazard problem, but i don't think banning gliscor will solve the hazard problem either—it existed before the dlc, and before home. the only ways i can conclusively see to solve the problem would be banning a double-digit number of mons (including several that are clearly not broken) or banning spikes, and i don't think either one is feasible. i think we just have to accept that this is the hazards gen and hope that gen 10 does to spikes what this gen did to scald

 

[SDK03]

Don't mean to speak on njnp's behalf but I can personally explain why I find gliscor very problematic.

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Protect
- Spikes

Evs/tera types flexible, it's these 4 moves which matter.

The fact that we have a spiker who can come directly in on Great Tusk, facetank stabs+knock off for breakfast, threaten it out with Toxic, and get a Spike right back up after Great Tusk switches out is very concerning. The best hazard removal in the tier just left the field with a spike still up. Cinderace is no better, Pyro Ball is bouncing off Gliscor, it cannot be wisped, and after a Court Change, it can set a Spike right back up. Seeing our best forms of hazard removal trivialized like this is the canary in the coal mine for this already hazard centric meta.

If you weren't running Ice Spinner on your Offensive Great Tusk, start.
If you were running defensive Great Tusk, stop.
We are nosediving into Gliscor Spikes Balance Hell at record speeds.

RAQ

I'm not doing an in-depth Ape analysis, I'm doing an in-depth OU Mightyena analysis (I'm sorry if my wording was confusing on that, I edited the original post just now to clarify that) and then an in-depth Volbeat analysis later on - but if you like, here's the OU Infernape set I've been running most commonly on my teams -

View attachment 553890
Infernape @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Iron Fist
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Raging Fury
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch

Quick Damage Calculations

252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Drain Punch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 436-516 (109 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Infernape Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 252-296 (66.6 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Infernape Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 500-590 (132.2 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Tera Electric Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 278-330 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Tera Electric Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 420-494 (78.6 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Empoleon: 512-606 (137.6 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 324-384 (80.1 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah, Infernape isn’t really bad by any means, just heavily outclassed. And even though Valiant could definitely pull this same kind of set off much better with higher Speed and 130 Atk, having access to 120 BP Fire STAB and 90 BP Physical Electric STAB thanks to Tera at the same time is a pretty neat niche for Infernape to have considering how surprisingly potent Fire/Electric is as an offensive typing.

Also, wouldn’t Flare Blitz just outright be a better option than Raging Fury since you get a 90 BP STAB Drain Punch from Iron Fist anyways? Being locked into a move like that kind of sucks and the upside of not being a contact move is negligible at best.

 

[Dhrabb]

Hello, just wanna tell yall that the GOAT has returned and he should be FEARED by all
View attachment 553848
MEGAGODZILLA (Tyranitar) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off
- Ice Beam
- Low Kick

This set is very similar to the av hoopa set that became pretty popular at one point. Basically its slow but it will usually live a hit and hit back hard. Some may ask what this has over hoopa since its slower and its got a worse typing, but worry not because this guy is not fucking around. First of all ur using TTAR and not lame ass hoopa so ur opponents will be intimidated by the sheer presence of this BEAST. Secondly ttar is much bulkier with this set than hoopa so when ur not getting with a cc it takes hits even better than hoopa which was already infamously tough to 1 hit kill. The sand by itself is also very epic rn, as u goob all of the veil, rain and sun teams running around with it. The coverage on this guy is also extremely epic, hits pretty much everything except fighting types. However, even the viable fightings do not want to get hit with KNOCK OFF, which is an epic tool that TTAR got in the dlc. With this weapon, ttar can no longer get completely abused by shit like tusk, as if tusk gets its leftovers knocked, it opens up the door for ur other mons to get off the GOOB. In conclusion: the GOAT is back, and its only a matter of time before he rises back to where he BELONGS!!!

And just cause ik some of yall are haters, here's some replays of the goat doing goat shit:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1948242706-lywk4dwy8khacfku6fflhiwuh3oskjepw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1948207748-pg4ahauum63c687r4cjmv44y06t0enwpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1946572715
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1947288670-hp0p684dw0j2jo87hrzgnf23p7ma8y6pw

Lovee to see another Tyranitar enjoyer, I have also been having a lot of success with AV Ttar. I will say, running max speed gives you a lot of milage on this set. It ourspeeds Jolly Kingambit by 3 points and can ohko with low kick. With AV your bulk is still crazy with no hp investment, for example it takes 97 from +3 Manaphy surf. If you do choose to go max speed, adamant is fine as ice beam still hits its targets more or less the same.

 

[Captain Marshadow]

I'm honestly of the opinion that Wellspring Ogerpon is actually incredibly strong, probably overly so alongside Hearthflame, now that I've played with it for the past week or so. If you can get it into a position that lets you get an SD with minimal punishment (i.e behind Veil, on a switch) then you might've unironically just won the game there. Tera Water Ivy Cudgel's breaking power after SD is borderline impossible to switch into if you don't have your own Wellspring Ogerpon (good luck taking that Horn Leech/Wood Hammer/Power Whip on the switchin though lol) for the Water Absorb, and the Sp.Def boost seems inconsequential at first but saves it MASSIVELY against faster offensive threats that'd otherwise threaten to outspeed and revenge KO like Draco Dagapult, Special variants of Valiant, Specs/LO Gren, etc. Still gets threatened pretty bad by faster physical threats like Meowscarada on top of being one of many Pokemon to get their skull pulped by 4/5 Fallen Supreme Overlord Kingambit Sucker Punch, but hey, that's nothing a well-time Veil can't mitigate right?
Maybe it's just the low-ladder getting to me and my opinion will be changed as I inevitably start getting my ass handed to me by players with far more game sense and teambuilding skill than I, but I was able to get scale on the ladder pretty easily with very sparse play using a somewhat slapdash Veil Offense team (that started off with Revavroom and Cetitan of all things) by simply subbing Ogerpon in and also Iron Valiant, but I'll leave talk of if it's brokenness to those higher on the food chain, and it's no exaggeration to say that most of those games were won off of either early or mid-game Ogerpon sweeps where the opponent messed up a grand total of once and let me boost.

 

[Red Raven]

On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame?

6. Somehow, this metagame feels a bit overwhelming to me. I prefer to build balance or bulky offense teams and I get ripped apart by a fucking bear of all things. I dunno, maybe its just because it’s only been a week since the dlc and maybe some things just haven’t settled down that much. I’ll have to play a bit more but this is what I’ll settle for now

On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame?

6. Too many annoying things running around, hazard removal is still nigh impossible, veil can be annoying and that Firepon is really strong. Even resists can’t handle it reliably and it even has mold breaker

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ogerpon-Hearthflame?

5. This shit’s crazy. Even Moltres, a pokemon that resists both its stabs, cannot even handle it 1v1. The good thing about it is if you’re the one using it, it’s fun, but when you’re on the receiving end, you never want to see it ever again. Then again, that goes for every broken pokemon that ever existed in the tier

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Manaphy?

3 for me. The thing about this is outside of veil, I don’t really have much problem with it. On the other hand, if it is on veil and with tera, this thing becomes more problematic to deal with

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ninetales-Alola?

4. It’s more about aurora veil but this pokemon can really screw you over. I’ve always hated rng and if that hypnosis lands, it can be an even bigger headache than it already is. Access to encore doesn’t help either. These things have existed before but the reason I find Ninetales to be more broken than last gen is simply due to tera and the hail buff. Some veil abusers wouldn’t be that problematic if they couldn’t tera and that hail buff that increases ice type’s physical defense can often make Ninetales more difficult to kill

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ursaluna Blood Moon?

3. On one hand, this thing is really slow and frail. On the other hand, this thing hits like a truck and the moment it gets one calm mind, that low special defense is no longer that exploitable. There’s also tera that allows it to get out of its fighting and water weaknesses and its physical bulk isn’t exactly something to take advantage of

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ogerpon-Wellspring?

This is a clear 1 for me. I’ve never had any issues with it personally and water absorb can come in handy against rain teams. As long as you have something to deal with Zapdos, this thing often shuts down half a rain team

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Gliscor?

I gave this a 2 simply because it’s a hazard setter than forces Great Tusk to run ice spinner even if you don’t want to. The ease with which Gliscor sets hazards and poisons a lot of things is kinda ridiculous. This pokemon feels like it’s more annoying than it’s ever been before, probably because all it really needs now is access to sticky web

---

Either way, I think even though it hasn't been that long, I find that this is a better metagame than that whole Kingambit on every team before the DLC. I also think something needs to be done about tera but I won't gripe about it since I do also think it's better to wait for the second DLC

 

[mr.pink88]

I'm not doing an in-depth Ape analysis, I'm doing an in-depth OU Mightyena analysis (I'm sorry if my wording was confusing on that, I edited the original post just now to clarify that) and then an in-depth Volbeat analysis later on - but if you like, here's the OU Infernape set I've been running most commonly on my teams -

View attachment 553890
Infernape @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Iron Fist
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Raging Fury
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch

Quick Damage Calculations

252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Drain Punch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 436-516 (109 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Infernape Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 252-296 (66.6 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Infernape Raging Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 500-590 (132.2 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Tera Electric Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 278-330 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Tera Electric Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 420-494 (78.6 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Empoleon: 512-606 (137.6 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Iron Fist Infernape Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 324-384 (80.1 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

sorry abt that
i'm def gonna steal the set lmao

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

Hi, banning Gholdengo will not solve this tiers hazard problem. This has been discussed plenty so I'm not gonna restart the argument, but the mindset that removing Gholdengo will solve the tiers hazard problem is in my opinion not correct. What can solve this tiers hazard problem is having fewer unhealthy hazard setters that lead to a centralizing metagame where teams are filled with boots or users that avoid spikes (flying type/levitate) that were showcased heavily during OLT. Stresh discussed this issue in detail in his post. Gliscor is a perfect hazard setter for this current metagame as it's able to pressure both of the prominent gatekeepers Great Tusk & Cinderace. A very very important thing it is able to do that Ting-Lu and Sam-H can not is avoid hazards itself and have consistent recovery thanks to its ability poison heal. Gliscor is not going to instantly win you a game like Ogrepon or Blood Moon but when played properly it can slowly and confidently take your opponent's team down. Gliscor greatly benefits from the ban of Baxcalibur and welcomes its removal from the tier as it was one of the prominent measures against it. You could say to yourself its spike setting set is too passive, Gliscor doesn't have to run that set. It has balance-breaking taunt sets and sword dance breaking sets at its disposal. The main reason I wanted it included on the Survey is because I personally view it on the same spectrum as Radar. Gliscor is the perfect balance/stall Pokemon that any enjoyer of those playstyles has been waiting for to make gameplay much easier for them. Gliscor exacerbates this tiers hazard problem and makes you wish Ting Lu was the only reliable stacking ground again.

Could you explain why banning Gholdengo is not the solution here? Sure, there are tons of Pokemon that can simultaneously pressure hazard removers while also setting up lots of hazards but... hasn't that always been the case, to an extent? Lando is/was so good in part because it does exactly that- it pressures things out so it can set up hazards. How is it not the case that Gholdengo, the one Pokemon with essentially perfect spinblocking, is NOT the issue here when we've had Pokemon before who do the exact same shit that Gliscor does in the past and not been a problem?

I understand that there are other issues with hazard removal this generation (i.e. gamefreak's absolutely awful decision making w/ regards to transfer moves, etc.), but I find it really hard to believe that removing the one Pokemon who prevents hazards from going down the most is not, at least in large part, the problem here.

It really should've been Gholdengo or Kingambit on the tiering survey, not Gliscor of all Pokemon.

 

[Avira]

I don't know how someone can seriously say that banning Gholdengo would not solve or meaningfully weaken hazards in SV OU as Gholdengo is the one single mon blocking all attempts at Defogging away hazards until it has been KOed, which is the reason for Great Tusk's very high usage since Great Tusk is the only durable and semi-reliable hazard control option that is faster than and can one-shot Gholdengo. There is a very strong correlation between Great Tusk's usage rate and the prevalence of Gholdengo, and a ban of Gholdengo would actually noticeably affect Great Tusk's usage given how reliant players are on using it to get rid of hazards 'cause of the cheese string mon. It would free up the chokehold Gholdengo has on the hazard game.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

I don't know how someone can seriously say that banning Gholdengo would not solve or meaningfully weaken hazards in SV OU as Gholdengo is the one single mon blocking all attempts at Defogging away hazards until it has been KOed, which is the reason for Great Tusk's very high usage since Great Tusk is the only durable and semi-reliable hazard control option that is faster than and can one-shot Gholdengo. There is a very strong correlation between Great Tusk's usage rate and the prevalence of Gholdengo, and a ban of Gholdengo would actually noticeably affect Great Tusk's usage given how reliant players are on using it to get rid of hazards 'cause of the cheese string mon. It would free up the chokehold Gholdengo has on the hazard game.

Exactly. I see the argument that it wouldn't fix the hazard game completely- there IS a dearth of good hazard removers, but like... let's not pretend that banning it wouldn't be a meaningful change to the state of hazards in the tier. If Gliscor (and others like Ting-Lu and Hamurott) are still too powerful of hazards setters after a ban on Gholdengo, fair enough- but as far as I'm concerned, as long as Gholdengo is in the tier, any discussion on if hazard setters are the problem doesn't make a lick of sense.

Basically, if we're gonna be discussing the effect that Gliscor has on the game due to its ability to set up hazards and force out Tusk, we should probably discuss the string cheese man in the room first.

 

[Blaze_101392]

i.e. gamefreak's absolutely awful decision making w/ regards to transfer moves, etc.

I honestly think limiting access to old moves does more good than ill. Scald and Toxic should not have been as distributed as they were and the only way to remove them is to do what they did. The games should not be at the mercy of mistakes from a decade plus ago and if they want to change access to moves they now can. This is good. Yea, it sucks that Defog isn't a TM when Spikes is now more distributed, but that can be solved if it's made a TM . And given that Toxic, Scald, and Knock Off have all been brought back I wouldn't be shocked if it's in DLC2. Also, let's not forget that while it isn't an issue on simulators, actually recreating a team in game can be a nightmare that could take generations of games. Not to mention Bank which is no longer available.

 

[cyrtie]

I am posting this to show a funny calc but also as a response, Morkal mentioned how Ogerpon Wellspring was like dracovish in rain and I am here to show how that is not even close to being the case

252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Rain: 170-201 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO

A decent hit on a quite bulky resist but it is not too far off this damage roll..

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Tera Water Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus-Eternamax in Rain: 192-226 (26.8 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

A 4 hit ko resisted attack on the bulkiest possible pokemon in the game. sure you might mention how it does not outspeed but I can just say how eternamax isnt even an actual pokemon, I only showed this to make people realize the absurd power that is tera dracovish, fortunately it is not a thing in the game and probably wont be unless dlc 2 reintroduces all fossils.

 

[Dhrabb]

Honestly quite surprised people find Manaphy to be manageable, I think it is insanely constricting for teambuilding and forces me to make choices that otherwise aren't the best fit. Even then I could deal with just a tail glow 3 attacks set but then the acid armour take heart one shows up and it becomes even more annoying. How are y'all dealing with that set?

 

[Mikegengsta]

Exactly. I see the argument that it wouldn't fix the hazard game completely- there IS a dearth of good hazard removers, but like... let's not pretend that banning it wouldn't be a meaningful change to the state of hazards in the tier. If Gliscor (and others like Ting-Lu and Hamurott) are still too powerful of hazards setters after a ban on Gholdengo, fair enough- but as far as I'm concerned, as long as Gholdengo is in the tier, any discussion on if hazard setters are the problem doesn't make a lick of sense.

Basically, if we're gonna be discussing the effect that Gliscor has on the game due to its ability to set up hazards and force out Tusk, we should probably discuss the string cheese man in the room first.

Gliscor to get a ban? Lmao