Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[P3DS]

As it stands, this is a low point in the metagame to me. Releases and fallout will do that, but I think there's some room to go until we hit a better metagame. I’m very excited to get there and think each move will unlock a gold amount of progress.

Ursaluna-Bloodmoon outright dictates the fate of archetypes, constricting the builder to unreasonable degrees. Wanna run balance? You’re stuck using passivemons like SubProt Gliscor, CM Unaware Clef, CM Cress, or even Blissey if you don’t want to dive deep into the realms of lower tiers. Wanna run stall? Better hope it’s not the wrong set and you’re still packing CM Blissey almost always, if not normal Blissey + CM Unaware Clef to cover the set mix. Wanna run offense? Bit more feasible, but you’re still reading 1.5-2 Pokemon for it if you can’t keep pressure up perfectly or potentially time Teras. This thing absolutely has to go.

Beyond this, there are still some demons that plague us. To me, Roaring Moon is one of the lowkey broken things we see right now. Very few things check DD Tera Fly consistently. With attack booster and potentially Tera, it can outmuscle Dondozo, PDef Unaware Clef, and Tusk, who it hits super effectively. Taunt can further annihilate stall by stopping Gliscor’s Toxic while BB/EQ hits things like Kingambit, Garg, and Heatran hard. Knock Off is also a huge selling point as it makes Zapdos less reliable into it and helps the team in general while maintaining a presence as a strong STAB option. I feel like hyper offense frequents Moon and it’s because of the lack of true countess. It’s nowhere near as broken as Bloodmoon, but it’s definitely discussion worthy.

Other things I find to be worth discussing are Kingambit, Manaphy, Gliscor, and Wellspring. Kingambit was broken before imo and not much has changed beyond the allocation of EVs/Tera/fourth move — it’s similarly potent in my eyes. Manaphy hasn’t troubled me too much and I cannot speak to wanting it banned as I don’t personally, but I know it registers for many others. Gliscor I find more annoying than broken, but I think it’s gaining some steam and should remain in talks. And finally Wellspring has blossomed nicely and while we see more adaptations to it and Tera against it, we should keep in mind the impact it has on our teams and play.

I agree with a lot of this.

On the discussion points:
Kingambit: Should have been banned, but I think a lot of DNB folks wanted tera action, and didn't realize that there would unlikely be a tera suspect until the new year (Unless there was a drastic breaking to it). It still feels stupid, and being able to get band boost with an item is silly. Add tera and whatnot, and it's one scary mon. And, no, tera doesn't break the Mon. Makes it stronger, but it's a little too powerful to deal with, especially at SO5.

Gliscor: I think it's more the new Lando-T, except taking more of a tank role. It lost roost and Defog, but still able to act like defensive Lando from prior gens. Hazards, toxic, knock off, taunt.. can even use SD and some nice coverage to handle other stuff. It's a great knock off absorber (Once poisoned) and status immunity. I think this fights Tusk as best OU Ground Type

Wellspring Ogerpon (Waterpon): fire went, but the water version is still extremely potent. 120 BP water STAB is nuts, and add in healing with horn leech and knock off utility, plus Swords dance, and this is painful. The pivot set is marginally better, but it's so painful to handle. Maybe with the format calmed down a little it could be fine, but the SD set is hard to check reliably

Manaphy: tera+Tail Glow is very good, and it has the take heart bulky set with stored power... yeah, a little too much. Will need to see how it fairs when the setup special attacker isn't defaulting to BM

And one last Pokémon I think that is missed: Rillaboom. I know Rilla isn't on the Radar... but it should be. Last gen, there were calls for Rillaboom suspect, but they were left to deal with it. Both in IoA and CT. Yes, Mons like Corv exist, but then lose their item (Lefties/Boots/Helm), making their long term options worse, and it just pivots out on them. Also, with limited decent terrain options, and low number of good defoggers or ice spinners, we are usually stuck in grassy terrain. It has strong terrain priority, and a deadly boosted wood hammer. It's a tough Mon to beat, and provides extra healing to Mons that usually can't access it.

 

[FayaWizard]

Comparing totally different metagames. Knock Off was big, but this tier also has a different composition altogether. While it was worse during the middle of the Summer, Roaring Moon saw nearly 40% usage last week in SCL, which is the biggest tournament we have seen in this young metagame so far, and it’s nearly staple status on hyper offense.

I’d say Veil helps it, but also general pace of setup spam teams and how easy a synergy add it can be on these offenses.

What do you think of Zamazenta currently? It's kinda slipping through the usage rates, but its iron defense body press set is surprisingly effective in cleaning up offense teams, able to set up on a surprising amount of threats

 

[Finchinator]

What do you think of Zamazenta currently? It's kinda slipping through the usage rates, but its iron defense body press set is surprisingly effective in cleaning up offense teams, able to set up on a surprising amount of threats

Still good, but I think it’s not quite broken right now. Tera Poison Bloodmoon warps the dynamic surrounding it, but we also see a ton of Gliscor, which makes non-Sub sets awkward, and Clef, SpeedBoost Valiant, Zapdos, etc. can be situational checks. What I will say is there’s some customizability that aids Zama a ton, but it’s rarely sweeping in my experience.

 

[TCTphantom]

"Let's intentionally destroy the tier to maximize the chance of banning [thing I don't like]" is transparently bad faith.

I’d prefer Tera be in the tier in some way, shape, or form. I think it’s an interesting mechanic and I would prefer Tera Preview or something as a compromise metric. I’m just saying since we know it’s going to be the first thing on the docket, we should entertain a fresh slate. It’s moreso pointing out that with how much of our tiering policy was linked to Tera, we might as well do a fresh slate once that matter is resolved.

Outside of some insanely nuts things like Flutter Mane and Last Respects, a lot of our bans have some link to Tera. Some much stronger than others. I don’t think Palafin or Chi Yu would automatically not be broken without Tera for instance. Similarly, I don’t think Espathra is super healthy even without Tera. Strawmanning me doesn’t change that fact.

 

[Napoli Burns]

RM was considered UU material

roaring moon was always good with corv being almost unviable, u can't never know the set, with the speed boost u are able to outspeed valiant, this mean having the fastest not boosted ou pokemon with 139 base attack and u did not need to tera fairy for resisting sucker punch

it only really lacked a strong stab like koff, now it also got scale shot

 

[FayaWizard]

Still good, but I think it’s not quite broken right now. Tera Poison Bloodmoon warps the dynamic surrounding it, but we also see a ton of Gliscor, which makes non-Sub sets awkward, and Clef, SpeedBoost Valiant, Zapdos, etc. can be situational checks. What I will say is there’s some customizability that aids Zama a ton, but it’s rarely sweeping in my experience.

Do you think Rillaboom deserves to be in OU right now? It's grassy terrain is always useful and grassy glide is grassy glide, but the BP nerf hurts and with gambit being everywhere choice band locking glide can easily screw you over lategame.

 

[Finchinator]

Do you think Rillaboom deserves to be in OU right now? It's grassy terrain is always useful and grassy glide is grassy glide, but the BP nerf hurts and with gambit being everywhere choice band locking glide can easily screw you over lategame.

Rillaboom is good right now. Grassy Terrain and Grassy Glide are both nice assets. I am glad it’s coming back. We see a fair amount in both tournaments and on ladder.

 

[FayaWizard]

Rillaboom is good right now. Grassy Terrain and Grassy Glide are both nice assets. I am glad it’s coming back. We see a fair amount in both tournaments and on ladder.

Last question(thanks for answering them), what do you think about Gholdengo? It's always been a controversial part of the tier and there seems to be some discourse recently about the hazard stacking meta it helps create(though it's not the only reason hazards are everywhere).

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Why is gliscor running phys def instead of sp. def? it feels like many teams want gliscor just wants to take that shadow, moonblast from enamorus, and it can alr sit on most physical pokemon so why is it running phys def?

 

[Finchinator]

Last question(thanks for answer them), what do you think about Gholdengo? It's always been a controversial part of the tier and there seems to be some discourse recently about the hazard stacking meta it helps create(though it's not the only reason hazards are everywhere).

Awesome Pokemon in the metagame still. Love the offensive presence it provides and with the combination of defensive Tera and Air Balloon, it can often leave its impact felt.

However, the dynamic about it that’s most controversial is arguably the suppression of the usage of things like Defog on things like Corviknight and the persistent presence of Spikes that done alongside it. I think it’s worth monitoring, especially as we settle down and potentially enter a territory for a larger balancing narrative reassessment surrounding the hazard situation.

 

[Finchinator]

Why is gliscor running phys def instead of sp. def? it feels like many teams want gliscor just wants to take that shadow, moonblast from enamorus, and it can alr sit on most physical pokemon so why is it running phys def?

I see/use SDef a lot, seldom going heavy on PDef

 

[CatsAreCute]

Why is gliscor running phys def instead of sp. def? it feels like many teams want gliscor just wants to take that shadow, moonblast from enamorus, and it can alr sit on most physical pokemon so why is it running phys def?

Some phys def to not die to great tusk ice spinner and other things, since that is the most likely thing to come on to you

 

[SDK03]

Awesome Pokemon in the metagame still. Love the offensive presence it provides and with the combination of defensive Tera and Air Balloon, it can often leave its impact felt.

However, the dynamic about it that’s most controversial is arguably the suppression of the usage of things like Defog on things like Corviknight and the persistent presence of Spikes that done alongside it. I think it’s worth monitoring, especially as we settle down and potentially enter a territory for a larger balancing narrative reassessment surrounding the hazard situation.

Hey Finch, you think Valiant could become a suspect candidate in the future? Its amazing base offensive typing, statline, almost overwhelming versatility and the fact that it makes potent game-ending use of almost any option you choose for it definitely seems like it could be worth looking over at some point.

 

[FayaWizard]

Awesome Pokemon in the metagame still. Love the offensive presence it provides and with the combination of defensive Tera and Air Balloon, it can often leave its impact felt.

However, the dynamic about it that’s most controversial is arguably the suppression of the usage of things like Defog on things like Corviknight and the persistent presence of Spikes that done alongside it. I think it’s worth monitoring, especially as we settle down and potentially enter a territory for a larger balancing narrative reassessment surrounding the hazard situation.

Sorry, one more question. Do you think the hazard stacking meta is mainly due to Gholdengo, or other factors? On one hand, its defog and rapid spin blocking abilites is really annoying, but the best spinner of the tier is tusk, who always threatens ghold. On the other hand, we also have the removal of a lot of hazard removal options(RIP defog distribution) along with the addition of a lot of hazard setters like Hamurott and Glimmora.

 

[Finchinator]

Hey Finch, you think Valiant could become a suspect candidate in the future? Its amazing base offensive typing, versatility and the fact that it makes potent game-ending use of almost any option you choose for it definitely seems like it could be worth looking over at some point.

Not super likely right now, but I see why some people highlight it as a potential suspect and think we should keep discussing it.

I see Valiant rn as an awesome tool to revenge kill, Encore lock, DBond trade, and occasionally sweep/break, but I think there is some general overlap in counterplay and sometimes opposing Tera works against it without even being designed specifically for it.

I’d say if it progresses and we reach a more settled point, formal discussions on it would be better. For now, probably an afterthought.

 

[Finchinator]

Sorry, one more question. Do you think the hazard stacking meta is mainly due to Gholdengo, or other factors?

Who came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

[Karxrida]

where did i ever say skymin wasn't completely uncompetitive bullshit nonsense? i just posited that sleep is better than flinch and people are frothing at the mouth because of it. neither skymin nor darkrai nor anything currently in ubers deserves to drop and this shouldn't even be a point of discussion in the current climate

My point is you're feeding into the very behavior you're criticizing, but with the added caveat of bad faith arguing (which you admitted to). Plus just made a post musing about Baton Pass, so you're being a hypocrite anyway. I was actually going to let this go as a lost argument until I saw that.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I see/use SDef a lot, seldom going heavy on PDef

I see... so depends on the player and the analysis is prob the most popular set or more splashable?

 

[Dhrabb]

What are people's thoughts on right now? That thing has been saving my ass like crazy lately, the addition of Knock has made it able to force so much progress and it also checks a bunch of stuff.

Another thing I've seen lately is that using as a rocker has been increasingly difficult. Don't get me wrong it's still an amazing mon with lots of utility, but it feels like every other mon that switches in somehow threatens it or setting up rocks gives up too much momentum compared to simply attacking or whatever. I still think it's the best Ground type in the tier behind , but I also think Ice spinner is mandatory on Tusk rn to hit Gliscor.

 

[Wooloomax]

Roaring Moon is one of the lowkey broken things we see right now

IMO Roaring Moon was always lowkey broken, the reason it even fell to UU was because Kingbambit out-busted it as the tier's top Dark type and Bax outclassed it as the tier's top dragon dancer. Now that Bax is gone RM reclaimed a top spot in OU with ease.

 

[NabboCheTesta]

IMO Roaring Moon was always lowkey broken, the reason it even fell to UU was because Kingbambit out-busted it as the tier's top Dark type and Bax outclassed it as the tier's top dragon dancer. Now that Bax is gone RM reclaimed a top spot in OU with ease.

A similar dynamic to Bax itself dropping to UU due to Mega Weavile being in the tier, though I think the buffs are helping it a bit by adding some aspects to its game on top of its speed and power after setup (as mentioned elsewhere, Knock Off is huge early on into fatmons).

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Who came first, the chicken or the egg?

other things laid eggs way before chickens evolved. which, come to think of it, is the perfect metaphor

 

[MattC (Banned)]

127 million dollars and a free house… there's gotta be a catch. are you sure there's not some fine print saying you get my soul or my firstborn child or something? i ain't falling for that shit again

No. Due to publicity, the house has caused legitimate trauma in most buyers. However, people have never heard what they haven't seen before.

You my friend, have seen and heard Flutter Mane. By way of trying to not run my bank account dry, I cut costs to 55k. But no one wants to buy it :(

Please my good sir. Flutter Mane will prove a valuable ally in a time of need. All you need to do is accept my offer of millions in the form of Skymin's speed stat, and in exchange, you will always be protected in a fairly humble household. Do consider it. I will acknowledge any and all feedback tomohawk

 

[KamenOH]

Beyond this, there are still some demons that plague us. To me, Roaring Moon is one of the lowkey broken things we see right now. Very few things check DD Tera Fly consistently. With attack booster and potentially Tera, it can outmuscle Dondozo, PDef Unaware Clef, and Tusk, who it hits super effectively. Taunt can further annihilate stall by stopping Gliscor’s Toxic while BB/EQ hits things like Kingambit, Garg, and Heatran hard. Knock Off is also a huge selling point as it makes Zapdos less reliable into it and helps the team in general while maintaining a presence as a strong STAB option.

Bruh it aint running all 5 moves at once. Its gotta pick and choose which things it could deal with, leaving it open to retaliation. Its like Bloodmoon, where its running its sig move, moonlight, and 2 other coverage moves, leaving it wanting for more.
Perhaps my thoughts of whats broken are just different from the rest of you, and im starting to think thats fine

 

[Finchinator]

Bruh it aint running all 5 moves at once. Its gotta pick and choose which things it could deal with, leaving it open to retaliation. Its like Bloodmoon, where its running its sig move, moonlight, and 2 other coverage moves, leaving it wanting for more.
Perhaps my thoughts of whats broken are just different from the rest of you, and im starting to think thats fine

The best set is DD / Acro / Knock / EQ or BB. You can use Taunt over EQ or BB if you want to dodge Toxic from Gliscor and a few other things, but it’s not needed at all. Think you’re nitpicking at best here.

Also, describing Bloodmoon as “leaving it wanting for more” is