Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Magcargo]

So there is a lot of discussion of what needs to get banned next, but something worth bringing up is that according to a few top players I've talked to, there are no real "S-Rank" mons in the current meta. Gambit's Tera reliance (which has increased opportunity cost now imo) + the increased usage of mons that annoy it like Zamazenta and Encore Ogerpon make it a bit less of an S-Rank pick than it was pre-DLC, Great Tusk doesn't like the presence of Gliscor and Ogerpon, in addition to moves like Flip Turn and Grassy Glide having wider distribution. Gholdengo is pretty good, but the number of mons that can outspeed and threaten it is still fairly high and it HATES Iron Moth's increased usage. Ogerpon is threatining for sure, but like Kingambit, it hates Zamazenta's increased usage, doesn't like Hazards, and can be forced to Tera vs certain mons like Cinderace or Iron Moth. Gliscor is a strong with a decent variety of sets, but its EV spread can make or break it in several MUs, struggles with some common mons like Ogerpon and ATales, and can have all its progress undone in one fell swoop by Cinderace, though it matches up quite well vs the Rabbit.

Others may disagree, but that lack of S-Rank mons implies to me that the metagame is in a relative state of balance currently. Now this could change as certain strategies become more popular or fall out of favor, but we likely don't need to rush into the next suspect at this point.

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Bloodmoon Ursaluna gets countered by Bronzong as it is immune to Earth Power thanks to Levitate and resists Blood Moon due to being an Steel type. Useless if Bloodmoon Ursaluna has a rare Smack Down, it can be countered along with an Fire, Dark or Ghost type Tera Blast.

 

[HeartfulKitty]

Bloodmoon Ursaluna gets countered by Bronzong as it is immune to Earth Power thanks to Levitate and resists Blood Moon due to being an Steel type. Useless if Bloodmoon Ursaluna has a rare Smack Down, it can be countered along with an Fire, Dark or Ghost type Tera Blast.

I think the biggest hurdle to Bronzong countering Bloodmoon in OU may be that Bloodmoon was banned with a 90+% margin

 

[ZannaBianca]

I think the biggest hurdle to Bronzong countering Bloodmoon in OU may be that Bloodmoon was banned with a 90+% margin

Bro living in a parallel timeline

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

So there is a lot of discussion of what needs to get banned next, but something worth bringing up is that according to a few top players I've talked to, there are no real "S-Rank" mons in the current meta. Gambit's Tera reliance (which has increased opportunity cost now imo) + the increased usage of mons that annoy it like Zamazenta and Encore Ogerpon make it a bit less of an S-Rank pick than it was pre-DLC, Great Tusk doesn't like the presence of Gliscor and Ogerpon, in addition to moves like Flip Turn and Grassy Glide having wider distribution. Gholdengo is pretty good, but the number of mons that can outspeed and threaten it is still fairly high and it HATES Iron Moth's increased usage. Ogerpon is threatining for sure, but like Kingambit, it hates Zamazenta's increased usage, doesn't like Hazards, and can be forced to Tera vs certain mons like Cinderace or Iron Moth. Gliscor is a strong with a decent variety of sets, but its EV spread can make or break it in several MUs, struggles with some common mons like Ogerpon and ATales, and can have all its progress undone in one fell swoop by Cinderace, though it matches up quite well vs the Rabbit.

Others may disagree, but that lack of S-Rank mons implies to me that the metagame is in a relative state of balance currently. Now this could change as certain strategies become more popular or fall out of favor, but we likely don't need to rush into the next suspect at this point.

Nah, I would disagree there. Even if there's technically not much overtly overpowered (and that's still debatable), the issue is that no one is really having fun. It's pretty clear just from the tone of this thread that the majority of people find the current metagame deeply frustrating for a variety of reasons (hazard-play being incredibly dominating thanks to Gholdengo, Tera sabotaging one of the fundamental cores of Pokemon as a game system, mons like Kingambit just being infuriating to fight in general), and the focus really should be on trying to figure out how to make actually enjoyable. Because, like, that's the point of competitive, right? We're competing in the game for the fun of playing against others. Otherwise it's just grinding at a meaningless ladder with no true reward.

 

[Return to Zero]

Bloodmoon Ursaluna gets countered by Bronzong as it is immune to Earth Power thanks to Levitate and resists Blood Moon due to being an Steel type. Useless if Bloodmoon Ursaluna has a rare Smack Down, it can be countered along with an Fire, Dark or Ghost type Tera Blast.

Please never get sober.

Also, re:nothing is actually S tier, I don't think that's indicative of whether or not something is broken. Gholdengo isn't hitting 40% usage numbers, but its existence is half the reason hazard stacking is so easy to do and difficult to play against. Extremely good mons that serve a defensive or utility role like it don't look the same as broken offensive sweepers, but aren't any less centralizing for it. Hell, there's an argument Gholdengo is the most centralizing thing in the tier right now for making this playstyle so good. Cinderace would not be nearly as common as it is if, according to usage stats, almost one quarter of all teams didn't have the ability to nullify every other form of hazard removal just by switching.

 

[NabboCheTesta]

So there is a lot of discussion of what needs to get banned next, but something worth bringing up is that according to a few top players I've talked to, there are no real "S-Rank" mons in the current meta. Gambit's Tera reliance (which has increased opportunity cost now imo) + the increased usage of mons that annoy it like Zamazenta and Encore Ogerpon make it a bit less of an S-Rank pick than it was pre-DLC, Great Tusk doesn't like the presence of Gliscor and Ogerpon, in addition to moves like Flip Turn and Grassy Glide having wider distribution. Gholdengo is pretty good, but the number of mons that can outspeed and threaten it is still fairly high and it HATES Iron Moth's increased usage. Ogerpon is threatining for sure, but like Kingambit, it hates Zamazenta's increased usage, doesn't like Hazards, and can be forced to Tera vs certain mons like Cinderace or Iron Moth. Gliscor is a strong with a decent variety of sets, but its EV spread can make or break it in several MUs, struggles with some common mons like Ogerpon and ATales, and can have all its progress undone in one fell swoop by Cinderace, though it matches up quite well vs the Rabbit.

Others may disagree, but that lack of S-Rank mons implies to me that the metagame is in a relative state of balance currently. Now this could change as certain strategies become more popular or fall out of favor, but we likely don't need to rush into the next suspect at this point.

I'm not a particularly good player,
but after exploring some different styles of teams (I've tried and had similar and degrees of success with webs, stall, veil ho, balance...) I can relate to what you say in that there are no mons that can just steamroll everything unopposed unless some niche option is considered, which is good in theory.

However, in practice the tier plays very weirdly, almost as if we never left the phase after release, in that it feels like almost everything relevant is fundamentally broken in some way or another, many times without even taking Tera into account.

Tera itself feels similar in its brokenness bringing some balance.
The amount of 50/50s that it forces is something that I find quite unenjoyable and not very healthy for the meta, but in a twisted way that very nature and the "one time" use almost helps smoothing out matches that would otherwise be one-sided or very linear by encouraging noncommittal choices over immediately leveraging a matchup advantage or a winning position.

 

[redninjapuffle]

Bloodmoon Ursaluna gets countered by Bronzong as it is immune to Earth Power thanks to Levitate and resists Blood Moon due to being an Steel type. Useless if Bloodmoon Ursaluna has a rare Smack Down, it can be countered along with an Fire, Dark or Ghost type Tera Blast.

Welcome back from your 1.5 week coma

 

[VerdantVirizion]

Unrelated but I've been using Specs Infiltrator Chandelure on Sticky Web teams along with Ribombee and it's actually been really effective

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Unrelated but I've been using Specs Infiltrator Chandelure on Sticky Web teams along with Ribombee and it's actually been really effective

As a Student of the Way of the Webs (thank u TrueIssue), I've been experimenting with similar pokemon in Specs Gholdengo and Breloom, which in theory they function similarly. I'm interested to hear your reasoning behind them! On first impression, Ghold has better defensive typing at the cost of less power and less spammable secondary STAB, and Breloom has enormous power due to technician Boolet Seed and Mach Punch + Swords Dance, but struggles in the speed department against faster threats like Clear Body Pult and Air Balloon Dengo (I run bulldoze mostly so you can hit it and heatran stronger but you have to pop its balloon first). Do you have any insights from playing with them you could share?
Edit: just realized you said ribombee rather than rillaboom lmao. Just ignore that part

 

[That_Dwayneee]

As a Student of the Way of the Webs (thank u TrueIssue), I've been experimenting with similar pokemon in Specs Gholdengo and Breloom, which in theory they function similarly. I'm interested to hear your reasoning behind them! On first impression, Ghold has better defensive typing at the cost of less power and less spammable secondary STAB, and Breloom has enormous power due to technician Boolet Seed and Mach Punch + Swords Dance, but struggles in the speed department against faster threats like Clear Body Pult and Air Balloon Dengo (I run bulldoze mostly so you can hit it and heatran stronger but you have to pop its balloon first). Do you have any insights from playing with them you could share?
Edit: just realized you said ribombee rather than rillaboom lmao. Just ignore that part

I’m interested in why you’ve opted for specs on ghold over balloon - p much every webs team runs balloon as it allows ghold to blank tusk in almost every scenario (it really doesn’t click knock off very often) whereas other items risk getting hit by a ground move on the switch and losing your mon that stops tusk spinning for free.

 

[Finchinator]

Bloodmoon Ursaluna gets countered by Bronzong as it is immune to Earth Power thanks to Levitate and resists Blood Moon due to being an Steel type. Useless if Bloodmoon Ursaluna has a rare Smack Down, it can be countered along with an Fire, Dark or Ghost type Tera Blast.

Calm Mind + Moonlight = gg

 

[Spheal boi]

Honestly I'm curious for how the meta will evolve with the second DLC, if there will be some old mons that were goated in the last gens but now are difficult to use for the top threats and losing some moves that were important for them, or even not used at all mons that instead got moves or some of the most requested for this meta that will let them skyrock in the tier.

 

[arnimacarni]

Honestly I'm curious for how the meta will evolve with the second DLC, if there will be some old mons that were goated in the last gens but now are difficult to use for the top threats and losing some moves that were important for them, or even not used at all mons that instead got moves or some of the most requested for this meta that will let them skyrock in the tier.

At this point I'm left wanting for a new HA on Swampert thats actually useful, and although unconfirmed I want Tapu Koko back for the chaos that would ensue

 

[Eeveeto]

Calm Mind + Moonlight = gg

Bronzong has CM too and can use it with Rest. It's useless vs most of the meta but it does beat most Ursaluna sets. Of course, that doesn,t make the bear less broken.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

I’m interested in why you’ve opted for specs on ghold over balloon - p much every webs team runs balloon as it allows ghold to blank tusk in almost every scenario (it really doesn’t click knock off very often) whereas other items risk getting hit by a ground move on the switch and losing your mon that stops tusk spinning for free.

I think it's just personally my team, as it's loaded with special attackers that can take out tusk (manaphy, proto spa iron moth) and the one physical attacker is breloom, which destroys tusk with Loaded Dice Bullet Seed (use breloom!!!), but they kind of struggle with boosting pokemon and unaware walls, which Gholdengo can solve with its high damage output and Trick. Even if Ghold switches in on a HLR and dies, that just means I revenge kill and the webs stay up.

 

[Cuddly]

Today is the 10th Anniversary of XY being released.

And despite the odds, still is OU. In fact its the only Kalos Pokemon to be OU still.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Today is the 10th Anniversary of XY being released.

And despite the odds, still is OU. In fact its the only Kalos Pokemon to be OU still.

man, remember when greninja and aegislash were the things we had to worry about? now it's all "oh yeah this mon gets stronger the worse at the game you are and this other one has a set against everything in the pokedex and a consequence-free choice scarf but we have bigger fish to fry"

 

[VerdantVirizion]

As a Student of the Way of the Webs (thank u TrueIssue), I've been experimenting with similar pokemon in Specs Gholdengo and Breloom, which in theory they function similarly. I'm interested to hear your reasoning behind them! On first impression, Ghold has better defensive typing at the cost of less power and less spammable secondary STAB, and Breloom has enormous power due to technician Boolet Seed and Mach Punch + Swords Dance, but struggles in the speed department against faster threats like Clear Body Pult and Air Balloon Dengo (I run bulldoze mostly so you can hit it and heatran stronger but you have to pop its balloon first). Do you have any insights from playing with them you could share?
Edit: just realized you said ribombee rather than rillaboom lmao. Just ignore that part

I actually use both Chandelure and Ghold! Ghold keeps hazards off the field while Chandelure can really clean up late game. Also I kind of view Chand as similar to Iron Moth. Trading an immediate threat for staying power and an immunity to spin itself. Also it serves as a really good check to moth and infiltrator is good against sub users

 

[luckie]

man, remember when greninja and aegislash were the things we had to worry about? now it's all "oh yeah this mon gets stronger the worse at the game you are and this other one has a set against everything in the pokedex and a consequence-free choice scarf but we have bigger fish to fry"

This just makes me wonder whether Aegislash would've dropped down to OU if it wasn't nerfed

 

[FruitLoopBoop]

Hello,
Does anyone know a reliable answer to this Iron Moth set?

I just feel like you have to sack your bulky poison (e.g pex or glowking) to force the tera, and then revenge kill with rillaboom or something, or let something die and revenge with booster val psyshock. Either way, I feel like you gotta let something die, unless you're running Alolo/Bliss stall lol.
I find iron moth a very tricky mon to face, does anyone know any good answers to these sets? Thanks in advance

I know ting-lu can manage non energy ball sets well, but its weak to toxic and val close combat and has no recovery outside of lefties so idk

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

This just makes me wonder whether Aegislash would've dropped down to OU if it wasn't nerfed

probably. mandibuzz, its main check, got a lot better when boots were introduced, and general power creep was definitely catching up to it either way

Hello,
Does anyone know a reliable answer to this Iron Moth set?
View attachment 560916
I just feel like you have to sack your bulky poison (e.g pex or glowking) to force the tera, and then revenge kill with rillaboom or something, or let something die and revenge with booster val psyshock. Either way, I feel like you gotta let something die, unless you're running Alolo/Bliss stall lol.
I find iron moth a very tricky mon to face, does anyone know any good answers to these sets? Thanks in advance

this set can't touch tera waterpon. switch out of your bulky poison on a predicted tera (you should be reasonably able to predict it because no one's gonna be leaving in tera grass iron moth on a glowking or pex) and bring in waterpon to tank the ground move, then tera and the +1 spdef will let you take the incoming sludge wave and fire back with either ivy cudgel or a grass move (in this scenario i'd recommend horn leech to recover a bit of the hp you've lost)

 

[CatsAreCute]

Hello,

I just feel like you have to sack your bulky poison (e.g pex or glowking) to force the tera, and then revenge kill with rillaboom or something, or let something die and revenge with booster val psyshock. Either way, I feel like you gotta let something die, unless you're running Alolo/Bliss stall lol.
I find iron moth a very tricky mon to face, does anyone know any good answers to these sets? Thanks in advance

I know ting-lu can manage non energy ball sets well, but its weak to toxic and val close combat and has no recovery outside of lefties so idk

Probably e speed dragonite. Or booster roaring moon

 

[dragonbr]

but in doing so, you A: have to predict accurately whether to defog or u-turn, B: even if you predict correctly and u-turn on the ghold, THE HAZARDS STAY UP, and C: Corv has this same option and is very clearly weak to gholdengo. What makes scizor different?
Even your (singular, 1380) replay shows Scizor not as a defogger, but as a swords dance sweeper, which really shouldn't have done anything if your opponent had went into toxapex or at least not just sacked their Pdef lando or Kingambit. It's also worth noting that the team didn't have gholdengo, which completely and utterly walls it AND prevents defog.

thats something I kept in mind in teambuilding, thats why I have pult on that team, the team uses scizor only when hazards are a problem, with multiple boots mons, balloon tran, and rilla resisting rocks+getting terrain regen, you end up with only caring about hazards in the endgame, also if ghold comes out early, its generally a pretty easy slow uturn from scizor into Pult, for free shadow balls, or into SpDef Tran to Magma Storm or EP the ghold

I like to think of it this way. The team is built to not need hazard control. BUT scizor has access to defog, so if I have a turn where I have to sack scizor and don't care about BP chip, its a great bonus to remove hazards for the mon I bring in if I can get it off. I don't rely on it, its pretty situational, but also people dont expect it, most expect CC/Dual Wingbeat/Bug Bite

So a combination of surprise factor, the fact that Ghold is not on EVERY team, and the ability to pivot while being slow and REALLY bulky, into mons that can cook ghold, thats why I like scizor. It might not be the one stop Defogger, woohoo everybody every team, kinda hazard control, but thats because its main role isn't hazard control. Its primary use is being a SD BP machine that can force switches, and be used as a Moonblast pivot.

 

[dragonbr]

Hello,
Does anyone know a reliable answer to this Iron Moth set?
View attachment 560916
I just feel like you have to sack your bulky poison (e.g pex or glowking) to force the tera, and then revenge kill with rillaboom or something, or let something die and revenge with booster val psyshock. Either way, I feel like you gotta let something die, unless you're running Alolo/Bliss stall lol.
I find iron moth a very tricky mon to face, does anyone know any good answers to these sets? Thanks in advance

I know ting-lu can manage non energy ball sets well, but its weak to toxic and val close combat and has no recovery outside of lefties so idk

lol

Heatran (F) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 212 SpD / 40 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock