Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[awyp]

I understand supermajority for the council, but tiers like UU only ask for 50% on their suspects.
I hope that some enthusiast with good words will make a topic on Policy Review, which would be the best place to discuss this.
Things are not moving forward, and it is not due to a lack of popular support or a lack of work from the council.

This is my first thought, every single time the community complains and goes over 50% like Kingambit, like Kyurem, like Tera we always go back to this point. Like there's people who flip a coin and pick what to vote for, it's either that or increase the reqs because I don't think 80% / 50 games is cutting it.

 

[YubelVT]

• Ogerpon-Wellspring is at an all-time high in viability with Water Absorb

On waterpon specifically I think this is more of a fake check because, a lot of the time, the switch into it is extremely forced and you can just click close combat, meaning it is now either basically dead or actually dead with rocks up. Skewda is super handleable imo but waterpon specifically isn't the greatest check despite its on paper attributes

 

[Finchinator]

On waterpon specifically I think this is more of a fake check because, a lot of the time, the switch into it is extremely forced and you can just click close combat, meaning it is now either basically dead or actually dead with rocks up. Skewda is super handleable imo but waterpon specifically isn't the greatest check despite its on paper attributes

Forcing it to click Close Combat when it only gets a few safe entries each game alone is a humongous win, espcially seeing as it does not KO. This alone takes up multiple Rain turns sequence wise and can stifle progress for a flimsy archetype.

 

[Tio Chico]

This is my first thought, every single time the community complains and goes over 50% like Kingambit, like Kyurem, like Tera we always go back to this point. Like there's people who flip a coin and pick what to vote for, it's either that or increase the reqs because I don't think 80% / 50 games is cutting it.

I'm ok putting the requirements in the same basket and evaluating the best for the tier. Including Quick Bans, kokoloko or whatever.

 

[Heatranator]

You're not even using the right definition, you're using that of a check, which is different. Rillaboom being able to switch in once counts as a counter, because it can beat out / force out barraskewda 100% of the time.

"Getting in for free" doesn't exist in this case, unless you're counting switching in with an HDB water immunity. Being a counter doesn't necessitate being able to "come in for free" because that's an unrealistic expectation that pretty much no Pokemon can do. Skarm doesn't "Come in for free" on Iron Boulder, even though it's generally considered a counter, it can take 30% from Mighty Cleave, Plus stealth rocks damage, and is forced to roost.

"Dondozo should never be used to say" why not, it's what it does, it beats the mon, i was providing pokemon that beat Barraskewda.

Sinistcha being fringe doesn't make it not a counter, I listed a ton of way more splashable ones, nitpicking the least usable one because a counter "needs to be splashable" just isn't a real argument.

Okay, I accidently used the wrong definiton, my bad. I'll link a photo to what smogon defines as a check and counter.

Note it says "wins every time, even under the worst case scenarios", which in this case, is if cc is clicked, which can happen.
Only dragonite, dondozo and hydrapple have reliable recovery, so every other mon has to be careful.
The reason why I said dondozo shouldn't be used to say a mon is counterable is because it is the ultimate phys.defensive wall, if you are having to use it to counter a mon, then that means it has extremely limited counterplay, which is a sign of its unhealthiness. I won't state that again if you want me to, but I think we shouldn't have to name dondozo as a counter to phys.attacking mons because it is already known it can counter most physical mons.
Sinistcha is fringe, doesn't make it less of a counter, but it means people are not using it a lot. If it was simply a case of it is better than people thought, sure, you could say it is a great counter. But if you have to force yourself to use it to counter barra, that isn't healthy.

I won't keep discussing this as Finch stated it would be his last post, and I am kinda getting annoyed with the back and forth that keeps getting repeated, but I haven't seen any reason to change my opinion. If you think barra is balanced, cool, but I disagree with you. The counterplay is vunerable to barra's coverage and while that may mean it gets weaker, it is worth it to take out the counter to barra, which means long-term the rain team can take advantage of that.

 

[Goodstyle]

Gambit not being banned was ultimately for the best, I think the community got it right there. Are we still pretending it's a toxic sweeper that's ruining the tier and not a mon with a great defensive profile that keeps a lot of annoying mon like Dragapult in check?

 

[YubelVT]

Forcing it to click Close Combat when it only gets a few safe entries each game alone is a humongous win, espcially seeing as it does not KO. This alone takes up multiple Rain turns sequence wise and can stifle progress for a flimsy archetype.

gotta disagree considering the skewda can just click CC a second time due to being faster, and also because
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 239-282 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 239-282 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Now yes this means the skewda is forced out on the third turn, BUT, getting rid of the "counter" and the plethora of pivot moves available to rain teams means that this doesn't necessarily mean anything. Like it switches to something with a slow u-turn/volt switch/flip turn or to archaludon and suddenly the pressure is still on. The only truly safe defensive way to handle barraskewda is, at least in my opinion, tera ghost gastrodon or clodsire. The plethora of priority in the tier means that I don't think it's necessarily banworthy but it is something that is hard to handle and does beat at least 1 of its dedicated checks easily.

Gambit not being banned was ultimately for the best, I think the community got it right there. Are we still pretending it's a toxic sweeper that's ruining the tier and not a mon with a great defensive profile that keeps a lot of annoying mon like Dragapult in check?

Both things can be true. Gambit is toxic and absolutely should have been banned but bad things can have good qualities

 

[Finchinator]

gotta disagree considering the skewda can just click CC a second time due to being faster,

Locking into CC with Rain turns ticking is a liability a lot of the time, really limiting gameflow potential.

 

[tommytt22]

Gambit not being banned was ultimately for the best, I think the community got it right there. Are we still pretending it's a toxic sweeper that's ruining the tier and not a mon with a great defensive profile that keeps a lot of annoying mon like Dragapult in check?

No no let's not start the broken check broken thing again, if kingambit got banned and dragapult was too much then ban it too. I've watched people stack hazards then sack their entire team to power up gambit and win with tera. Without tera it's completely balanced and just a great pokemon but it can just run too many tera types effectively. Tera breaks it 100%

 

[Avira]

No no let's not start the broken check broken thing again, if kingambit got banned and dragapult was too much then ban it too. I've watched people stack hazards then sack their entire team to power up gambit and win with tera. Without tera it's completely balanced and just a great pokemon but it can just run too many tera types effectively. Tera breaks it 100%

Dragapult wouldn't be broken even without Kingambit in the tier. You could maybe make the case that it was unhealthy in Gen 8, but there is more than enough counterplay to it in Gen 9 even without Kingambit.

 

[YubelVT]

No no let's not start the broken check broken thing again, if kingambit got banned and dragapult was too much then ban it too. I've watched people stack hazards then sack their entire team to power up gambit and win with tera. Without tera it's completely balanced and just a great pokemon but it can just run too many tera types effectively. Tera breaks it 100%

Broken Checks Broken will only ever work in the context of gen 7 OU. We can't let that mentality infest modern tiers

 

[Heatranator]

Broken Checks Broken will only ever work in the context of gen 7 OU. We can't let that mentality infest modern tiers

That's probably why it was so chaotic, so in fact it didn't work. We don't take into account collateral when banning things, if something is kept in check by something else broken, that is not good. We ban the things that become broken, that's how things are done. Technically every mon can keep something in check, but nobody is saying that we should unban solgaleo because it can deal with kyurem (except for that one person, but I don't want to have another discussion about the metal lion.)

 

[RS25802580]

gotta disagree considering the skewda can just click CC a second time due to being faster, and also because
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 239-282 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 239-282 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Now yes this means the skewda is forced out on the third turn, BUT, getting rid of the "counter" and the plethora of pivot moves available to rain teams means that this doesn't necessarily mean anything. Like it switches to something with a slow u-turn/volt switch/flip turn or to archaludon and suddenly the pressure is still on. The only truly safe defensive way to handle barraskewda is, at least in my opinion, tera ghost gastrodon or clodsire. The plethora of priority in the tier means that I don't think it's necessarily banworthy but it is something that is hard to handle and does beat at least 1 of its dedicated checks easily.

If Ogerpon takes one CC just switch it out to a mon that can take the CC. Ogerpon still lives to disincentivize further water spam. Yeah, Ogerpon isn't a check in the traditional sense, but it does make gameplay a hell of a lot harder for Rain, especially when rain turns are so valuable.

Physdef Dozo with Boots does a good job handling Baraskewda. It takes negligible damage from any of its attacks. While Barraskewda can just click flip turn into a Dozo counter, that also means that your opponent has used up a rain turn dealing minimal damage. Furthermore, if you have hazards up, you can wear down Barraskewda and punish it for clicking flip turn repeatedly.

 

[Goodstyle]

No no let's not start the broken check broken thing again, if kingambit got banned and dragapult was too much then ban it too. I've watched people stack hazards then sack their entire team to power up gambit and win with tera. Without tera it's completely balanced and just a great pokemon but it can just run too many tera types effectively. Tera breaks it 100%

Never said anything about broken checking broken. I'm saying that Gambit is great in a way that's different from something like Roaring Moon.

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

Quick shoutouts to offensive Torkoal sets utilizing Overheat. I love leading off vs Gliscor, getting up Rocks Turn 1 and then clipping the stupid bat's wings with Overheat.

252+ SpA Torkoal Overheat vs. 244 HP / 16 SpD Gliscor in Sun: 325-384 (92.3 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Unfortunate it isn't a true OHKO, but the fact that you force Gliscor onto the backfoot so easily in a single turn makes it all the worth while.

 

[Rootb]

This is my first thought, every single time the community complains and goes over 50% like Kingambit, like Kyurem, like Tera we always go back to this point. Like there's people who flip a coin and pick what to vote for, it's either that or increase the reqs because I don't think 80% / 50 games is cutting it.

Unfortunately, I don't think upping reqs will really move the needle, either. Spite is a fantastic motivator, and you're way less likely to stop someone motivated by it than you are to stop just about anyone else.

If anything, it might accidentally make the problem worse, as people who only kinda care simply stop bothering, but spiteful voters stick it out.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Oh that doesn't bode well at all. That stupid icey bastard staying in the tier feels quite bad actually... I guess I'll throw it on teams while it stays so I can make peoples lives miserable at least.

Anyways...

Barraskewda is not a problem. Arch is the entire reason Rain teams can largely sit there and take out 2-3 checks in a single rush whenever it gets to be brought in, Barraskewda is quite good in rain obviously but it has counter play and ways to deal with it. It does its job well, but it has very easy and effective counterplay from Rillaboom to just walling it with a physical resist. Arch has special and Body Press coverage on top of good speed, on top of durability, etc. The fact I've relied on either trying to Corrosion it to make it switch or have a steady fighting attack (sometimes having to tera before it teras fighting to kill something lol) goes to show its a bit too overwhelming.

I played against Rain teams before its drop and they didn't feel bad at all. Only after the introdunction of Arch did fighting them feel utterly ghoulish. Same goes for sun teams and the long necked bastard and his fiery brother.

 

[Finchinator]

Regarding the current metagame and how it can improve from its current, volatile status:

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Well if Kyurem ends up being a bigger problem if archaludon goes, I guess we know why because people voted dnb as a way to keep rain in line which in my opinion is stupid

Guess we have to see if Kyurem becomes more broken when and if stuff like moon and archaludon go, because I think it very well might become harder to deal with. Wouldn't be surprised if we revisit it in a few months

 

[TurquoiseLink]

I'm really curious what happens if you lead Walking Wake with sunny day in its moveset against rain teams. It isn't like Wake needs its 4th move much anyway. To be clear, I don't mean using Torkoal or anything. Just a low opportunity cost move on an already great mon.

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

I'm really curious what happens if you lead Walking Wake with sunny day in its moveset against rain teams. It isn't like Wake needs its 4th move much anyway. To be clear, I don't mean using Torkoal or anything. Just a low opportunity cost move on an already great mon.

I personally like running Weather Ball. I can’t tell what opposing Clodsire’s run what and I’m terrified of letting them in for free, so I instead opt to pressure them with Weather Ball, chunking them for a massive amount of HP and forcing them to burn Recover PP or flat out die.

 

[June Heat]

Well, Kyurem staying doesn’t bode well. Hopefully people will see that Rain is absurd, and ban some element from it. Though the fact that people are still praising DLC2 meta gives me my doubts.

 

[Pokemon Trainer: Shadow]

So basically, the broken stuff keeps the other broken stuff in check?

 

[Anchor9]

Gotta say Kyurem, especially Spec / Scarf, really limits rain. This is one of the main problems I have with my Ampharos for OU team. If you’re in a bad position, like Pelipper is in, you almost definitely have to sack something to get Barra in because Kyurem 2HKOs like everything on Rain, and then the opponent can easily play around that. I was hoping it would be banned just because of that, but oh well.

It was fun while it lasted, but I think I’m gonna retire the Ampharos for OU campaign. = OU Material

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Well, Kyurem staying doesn’t bode well. Hopefully people will see that Rain is absurd, and ban some element from it. Though the fact that people are still praising DLC2 meta gives me my doubts.

Who knows we could be seeing another Kyurem suspect or council vote if it ends up becoming too absurd and people get more fed up with it when rain/archa goes, the meta changes constantly after all

Also with the vote being very close the pokemon will still be monitored which means Kyurem could be suspected again in the future