Has anyone experimented with Growth Comfey on sun teams? Seems like an interesting option. Saw it in a YouTube video. (channel: LusterSN, Sylveon Feature)
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Kinda late but here's what I put on the survey:
Tera: No action, I think it's got a nice dynamic defensively while also allowing for some nice offensive counterplay to defensive teams if needed
- 5
As someone who plays a lot of stall, I do still find this mon broken. Although stall really does not care what Gouging Fire does (even breaking swipe set, only wins if you catch the stall player off guard, beatable by using Gliscor to force tera and burn fishing it), this mon is really hard for balance and even offense to deal with. The breaking swipe set is probably good into those, but I'm also looking at what balance does defensively against physical attackers, and what I mainly see is wisp, Skarmory, and Dondozo. The first two don't work, that's a given, and Dondozo does beat, but you do need some support for the breaking swipe set, which, if you dedicate too many slots for that, such as adding Gliscor and an Alomomola, it can really feel like simply a worse version of stall at times. 5 off of restricting teambuilding, it really does feel like Baxcalibur from HOME, where, at least in my opinion, it was secretly broken.
I would also add that no, I am not giving it a 5 because of the Chi-Yu ass sun calc against Dondozo, a properly piloted stall has plenty counterplay to even adamant boosted CB Gouging if you play it correctly because it eventually dies. Seriously, most of the other CB mons in sun are literally better against stall, it's the DD set that's a problem.
- 5
Yes, this mon is pretty good into stall. However, I also think that it's really hard to even revenge kill on boots spam teams, it really can feel like the best you can do is wisp it with something like Pult because even a u-turn from Meowscarada doesn't even kill (you need chip beforehand). While this isn't really accurate in terms of game flow, where it'll take a decent amount of damage over time, you really can only afford 1 speed slot on balance, maybe 2 if you are pushing it, and if it teras (or if, you know, you miss wisp) and you lose your speed control, it's pretty hard to stop. For how strong it is, it's too fast in my opinion, not to mention it isn't even frail. Also, yes, it's good against stall, but at least stall can run copium answers like Amoonguss just fine as well as have an easier time tera'ing defensively. This mon isn't just a mon that gives hyper offense a fighting chance against stall in my opinion, it's just a broken ass mon with, although a modest 120 attack stat (crazy how that's considered modest by the way), has very high BP moves in ivy cudgel and power whip, gets access to very good coverage and utility such as knock off, encore, and play rough, and even gets a free life orb with slightly less power. I already went pretty in-depth on it, so I won't be saying anything else about this mon.
- 2
I think this mon on paper seems really broken, where it can snipe Skarmory for a Kingambit sweep, but the reality is that it's taking hazards damage, rocky helmet from Skarm, random attacks from mons like Ting-Lu and Scor, and it eventually just gets ice sharded by a Weavile anyways. Maybe it could become broken, but I think the balance meta is well equipped for this mon. Also, yes, you lose your Skarm or Scor or whatever (you don't even lose your Scor if you force it to reveal taunt and you have a Kingambit) for the Kingambit endgame, but that Kingambit can't even tera because Roaring Moon is such a tera hog.
- 2
A threat that can be pretty cheesy at times, but it provides good defensive value. I don't like saying toxic answers it when it can tera to be immune to that but... yeah you can rely on toxic and pray no tera steel or poison if your Ting-Lu is low. Aside from that, I feel like most playstyles in general are well equipped against it or utilize it well. Maybe bulky offense struggles, but I still think it's fine if you have a Ting-Lu and/or a Slowking.
- 3
Not outlandishly broken, can feel very strong into offense, but it also isn't the worst thing to deal with. Ground types, while being able to get tera'd on, still are immune to thunderclap and can force the booster to go to waste or force a tera in general, and I feel like electric as an offensive priority move into a meta loaded with ground types just... has decent counterplay? It can be very annoying and cheesy though, so I will give it a 3.
- 2
This is a mon I feel should be considered after the brokens get banned, because right now, it feels like it has that really weird point where it's valuable defensively while being able to do so much offensively. Most broken set if I had to say would probably be tera ghost? I had a lot of success with being able to cheese past Skarmory with tera ghost, but it also can need tera quite a bit and doesn't win as much as you'd think. Also, losing when you're up 3 mons can very much be a skill issue, the whole thing about "I was outplaying my opponent to the end really hard and got a mon advantage but then Kingambit reverse swept" does feel like a skill check, cause you let your Gambit answers get weakened. That being said, I still can see this mon getting problematic, but I think it's not a priority right now.
- 1
Lol
- 5
It's funny that people say that Gholdengo is only broken against stall when that really isn't true, stall answers Gholdengo defensively leagues better than balance ever can. One tera fairy Gholdengo and your balance team can get pulverized, which is really dumb. Also, free my boy Corviknight, I know he's far from mid but I want him to be like really good, also would make balance more diverse by being able to use Corviknight, who, by the way, is #22 in usage even with Gholdengo in the tier, so I hope that can suggest he's not even bad without defog, so banning Gholdengo doesn't just free up some shitty defogger (it's also funny that you basically double hazard removal by banning Gholdengo even though there's like only a couple good defoggers).
- 1
Honestly, I might use Naclstack over Garganacl. Naclstack, while not being able to spam salt cure rent free with leftovers chip healing, is still able to leverage its amazing eviolite bulk to get strong body presses and get reliable opportunities to click salt cure, further supported by its ability to spam recover. Additionally, its access to moves like meteor beam, earthquake, heavy slam, body press, accelerock, and curse gives it lots of options to use to hit the tier hard. Lastly, if you wanted to spice things up, you could use stealth rock, spikes, salt cure, and explosion with sturdy custap berry to be able to force annoying progress early in the game. Both are just as good.
Overall, Garganacl doesn' t need to be banned.
I don't think anything else needs a ban, maybe Rottie is the only one that needs a ban because ceaseless edge is really keeping the Hatterene believers on the low.
Tera: No action, I think it's got a nice dynamic defensively while also allowing for some nice offensive counterplay to defensive teams if needed
- 5As someone who plays a lot of stall, I do still find this mon broken. Although stall really does not care what Gouging Fire does (even breaking swipe set, only wins if you catch the stall player off guard, beatable by using Gliscor to force tera and burn fishing it), this mon is really hard for balance and even offense to deal with. The breaking swipe set is probably good into those, but I'm also looking at what balance does defensively against physical attackers, and what I mainly see is wisp, Skarmory, and Dondozo. The first two don't work, that's a given, and Dondozo does beat, but you do need some support for the breaking swipe set, which, if you dedicate too many slots for that, such as adding Gliscor and an Alomomola, it can really feel like simply a worse version of stall at times. 5 off of restricting teambuilding, it really does feel like Baxcalibur from HOME, where, at least in my opinion, it was secretly broken.
I would also add that no, I am not giving it a 5 because of the Chi-Yu ass sun calc against Dondozo, a properly piloted stall has plenty counterplay to even adamant boosted CB Gouging if you play it correctly because it eventually dies. Seriously, most of the other CB mons in sun are literally better against stall, it's the DD set that's a problem.
- 5Yes, this mon is pretty good into stall. However, I also think that it's really hard to even revenge kill on boots spam teams, it really can feel like the best you can do is wisp it with something like Pult because even a u-turn from Meowscarada doesn't even kill (you need chip beforehand). While this isn't really accurate in terms of game flow, where it'll take a decent amount of damage over time, you really can only afford 1 speed slot on balance, maybe 2 if you are pushing it, and if it teras (or if, you know, you miss wisp) and you lose your speed control, it's pretty hard to stop. For how strong it is, it's too fast in my opinion, not to mention it isn't even frail. Also, yes, it's good against stall, but at least stall can run copium answers like Amoonguss just fine as well as have an easier time tera'ing defensively. This mon isn't just a mon that gives hyper offense a fighting chance against stall in my opinion, it's just a broken ass mon with, although a modest 120 attack stat (crazy how that's considered modest by the way), has very high BP moves in ivy cudgel and power whip, gets access to very good coverage and utility such as knock off, encore, and play rough, and even gets a free life orb with slightly less power. I already went pretty in-depth on it, so I won't be saying anything else about this mon.
- 2I think this mon on paper seems really broken, where it can snipe Skarmory for a Kingambit sweep, but the reality is that it's taking hazards damage, rocky helmet from Skarm, random attacks from mons like Ting-Lu and Scor, and it eventually just gets ice sharded by a Weavile anyways. Maybe it could become broken, but I think the balance meta is well equipped for this mon. Also, yes, you lose your Skarm or Scor or whatever (you don't even lose your Scor if you force it to reveal taunt and you have a Kingambit) for the Kingambit endgame, but that Kingambit can't even tera because Roaring Moon is such a tera hog.
- 2A threat that can be pretty cheesy at times, but it provides good defensive value. I don't like saying toxic answers it when it can tera to be immune to that but... yeah you can rely on toxic and pray no tera steel or poison if your Ting-Lu is low. Aside from that, I feel like most playstyles in general are well equipped against it or utilize it well. Maybe bulky offense struggles, but I still think it's fine if you have a Ting-Lu and/or a Slowking.
- 3Not outlandishly broken, can feel very strong into offense, but it also isn't the worst thing to deal with. Ground types, while being able to get tera'd on, still are immune to thunderclap and can force the booster to go to waste or force a tera in general, and I feel like electric as an offensive priority move into a meta loaded with ground types just... has decent counterplay? It can be very annoying and cheesy though, so I will give it a 3.
- 2This is a mon I feel should be considered after the brokens get banned, because right now, it feels like it has that really weird point where it's valuable defensively while being able to do so much offensively. Most broken set if I had to say would probably be tera ghost? I had a lot of success with being able to cheese past Skarmory with tera ghost, but it also can need tera quite a bit and doesn't win as much as you'd think. Also, losing when you're up 3 mons can very much be a skill issue, the whole thing about "I was outplaying my opponent to the end really hard and got a mon advantage but then Kingambit reverse swept" does feel like a skill check, cause you let your Gambit answers get weakened. That being said, I still can see this mon getting problematic, but I think it's not a priority right now.
- 1Lol
- 5It's funny that people say that Gholdengo is only broken against stall when that really isn't true, stall answers Gholdengo defensively leagues better than balance ever can. One tera fairy Gholdengo and your balance team can get pulverized, which is really dumb. Also, free my boy Corviknight, I know he's far from mid but I want him to be like really good, also would make balance more diverse by being able to use Corviknight, who, by the way, is #22 in usage even with Gholdengo in the tier, so I hope that can suggest he's not even bad without defog, so banning Gholdengo doesn't just free up some shitty defogger (it's also funny that you basically double hazard removal by banning Gholdengo even though there's like only a couple good defoggers).
- 1Honestly, I might use Naclstack over Garganacl. Naclstack, while not being able to spam salt cure rent free with leftovers chip healing, is still able to leverage its amazing eviolite bulk to get strong body presses and get reliable opportunities to click salt cure, further supported by its ability to spam recover. Additionally, its access to moves like meteor beam, earthquake, heavy slam, body press, accelerock, and curse gives it lots of options to use to hit the tier hard. Lastly, if you wanted to spice things up, you could use stealth rock, spikes, salt cure, and explosion with sturdy custap berry to be able to force annoying progress early in the game. Both are just as good.
Overall, Garganacl doesn' t need to be banned.
I don't think anything else needs a ban, maybe Rottie is the only one that needs a ban because ceaseless edge is really keeping the Hatterene believers on the low.
Agree 100%. The scariest thing Gholdengo can do vs Stall is run Psyshock, but it's problem is that it simply existing forces defensive teams to all be boots and knock off absorbers that don't melt to hazards. It just makes the game less fun by being there.
It's funny that people say that Gholdengo is only broken against stall when that really isn't true, stall answers Gholdengo defensively leagues better than balance ever can. One tera fairy Gholdengo and your balance team can get pulverized, which is really dumb. Also, free my boy Corviknight, I know he's far from mid but I want him to be like really good, also would make balance more diverse by being able to use Corviknight, who, by the way, is #22 in usage even with Gholdengo in the tier, so I hope that can suggest he's not even bad without defog, so banning Gholdengo doesn't just free up some shitty defogger (it's also funny that you basically double hazard removal by banning Gholdengo even though there's like only a couple good defoggers).
Who’s gonna tell them?
i will trust practice more than arrogant "quacc" takes on this one
Honestly, I might use Naclstack over Garganacl. Naclstack, while not being able to spam salt cure rent free with leftovers chip healing, is still able to leverage its amazing eviolite bulk to get strong body presses and get reliable opportunities to click salt cure, further supported by its ability to spam recover. Additionally, its access to moves like meteor beam, earthquake, heavy slam, body press, accelerock, and curse gives it lots of options to use to hit the tier hard. Lastly, if you wanted to spice things up, you could use stealth rock, spikes, salt cure, and explosion with sturdy custap berry to be able to force annoying progress early in the game. Both are just as good.
Overall, Garganacl doesn' t need to be banned.
It's funny that they introduced Tera this gen considering how many of the brokens introduced in SS (especially the DLCs) were theoretically supposed to be balanced this way. Shit coverage doesn't matter too much when you can just spam your powerful STAB over and over unless you're named Regieleki
How do i make a team that has a positive matchup vs most hazard leads (glimmora/ribombee/samurotth etc.), it just feels to me u win 75% of the battle if u have a positive matchup vs the opposing lead in offense vs offense games and less so about skill (kinda cringe but it is what it is)
Anti leads such as tusk and treads can work well, though of course you do have to be careful with hamurott. Weavile can deal with ribombee as it outspeeds and can ko it with triple axel. Combo these two together and you should be good. Though of course, something like rillaboom can help against hamurott if your worried about it.
Well, they need different things. Glimmora needs to be taken out by special attacks to avoid Toxic Spikes or needs a poison type teammate like Glowking so you don't need to worry about it. Glimmora and Hamurott are often Focus Sash or Choice Scarf. But the speed tiers are relatively low at 86 and 85. So you don't need something too fast to beat them. Multi-hit moves against Glimmora can be a bit problematic if you don't have a dedicated T spikes absorber or counter. You can minimize the impact by running more Flying, Steel, and Boots mons, but you still have to be careful.
Ribombee is sort of countered by Hatt, but not really because it often carries Skill Swap to counter Magic Bounce. It also often carries Focus Sash, so you usually cannot take it out in one turn without multi-hit moves.
The best way to counter Focus Sash is multi-hit moves or fast U-Turn into an appropriate switch. The best way to deal with Choice Scarf is to have a faster mon, which isn't too difficult in the case of Glimmora and Hamurott. Ribombee typically doesn't run Scarf, so it wouldn't be a problem as long as you outspeed an upboosted 124 speed tier. You can use Scarf or boosted mons for this, but you normally don't want to waste Booster Energy early. Teal Mask Ogerpon is actually a decent anti-lead because of the speed boost and Defiant for Lando-T, but it's a Tera hog and doesn't counter sash. Only specific teams can really accomodate that.
Fast or possibly Prankster Taunt will work on Glimmora and Ribombee if you have a faster mon and special attacker for Glimm, but not on Hamurott.
Having Cinderace on the teams will ease the tension of getting early hazards set up on. So you can worry less on hazard denial and just KO what is in front of you.
It is also possible to maybe try to use an anti-lead set up mon. If you can use the hazard set up time to stunt on your opponent and maybe get rid of them later or with Rapid Spin on the setup mon, it can be an effective counter strategy. But you have to be careful against Ribombee because it often carries Skill Swap and Stun Spore.
I'm not sure a single mon that can counter all 3. You can definitely use 2-3 mons to make sure that these strategies are countered. The tricky part is making sure they fit into a team concept. What you use should really vary on your team. If you devote too many resources to denying hazards, you won't have an optimal team for other matchups or even other leads.
this post had me feeling dizzy. curse + accelerock would be goated. for a split second i thought i had wasted the last 16 months playing the game without that incredible combo. thankyou for the heart attack
Honestly, I might use Naclstack over Garganacl. Naclstack, while not being able to spam salt cure rent free with leftovers chip healing, is still able to leverage its amazing eviolite bulk to get strong body presses and get reliable opportunities to click salt cure, further supported by its ability to spam recover. Additionally, its access to moves like meteor beam, earthquake, heavy slam, body press, accelerock, and curse gives it lots of options to use to hit the tier hard. Lastly, if you wanted to spice things up, you could use stealth rock, spikes, salt cure, and explosion with sturdy custap berry to be able to force annoying progress early in the game. Both are just as good.
Overall, Garganacl doesn' t need to be banned.
I don't think anything else needs a ban, maybe Rottie is the only one that needs a ban because ceaseless edge is really keeping the Hatterene believers on the low.
Amazing how every single word written here is just straight up wrong.
lol is that because you sense the sarcasm? It’s very funny imo. I do think Garg isn’t problematic though since the meta could just shift back to HO to counter it if it ever becomes really good.
Okay, I've got to say, grassy seed roaring moon with roost and tera fairy can be pretty disgusting. It can get off multiple dd's in a row against its usually better checks such as zama, which it can't hit it if it decides to not run id and valiant which can't even 2hit ko it. Anything else will hit limply into it, as weavile's ice shard does max 18%, and even +1 tera normal extreme speed from dragonite does max 65%.
People who say that moon is limited in what sets it will run, please just look at its movepool and experiment. Moon can do so much more than booster acro sets, and these adaptions I believe push it even more over the edge.
People who say that moon is limited in what sets it will run, please just look at its movepool and experiment. Moon can do so much more than booster acro sets, and these adaptions I believe push it even more over the edge.
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I finally got to 1500s, this has never happened before for me. I know it may seem small, but this is the furthest I've gotten in ladder so far.
Below is the game which got me there which I won against a player 200 elo above me by getting a fortunate crit.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2072386757-aeprmg9wdpi3jhqkk53jnyc3nan4oo9pw
good work, keep it up. 1500s is a real hurdle since people start to play the prediction game here. focus on your match plan and youll break through!
Tonight I'd like to put a spotlight on>>>>
Love him or hate him, This pokemon is perennial OU material. Most slowking run boots, understandably. This specific slowking is designed to be paired with kingambit. It acts as a lure for bulky pokemon that can give gambit strife in the late game, such as skarmory, gliscor, corviknight, zamazenta, dondozo, and to a lesser extent primarina and lando-T. (0 atk lando-T does 80% minimum to this set with earthquake. stay in on him at your own risk)
@ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: ???
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Future Sight / psychic
- Trick
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower/ Chilly reception
Ideally this set is played under the guise of standard slowking. This gives the opponent a sense of security that pokemon like gliscor and skarmory can come in for free to set up spikes or set up. In some cases people even believe tusk is a free switch since standard slowking only has future sight and sludge bomb. The defensive investment is designed to make you sturdier into gliscors earthquake, and random knock off from pokemon like gliscor, tornadus and zamazentas crunch. Flamethrower is my preferred move over chilly reception as skarmory teams will often have zamazenta, so slowking can cover both that way. chilly receptions utility cannot be denied so it is an option. I've left the tera type blank as this isnt a pokemon i would usually burn tera on. One thing to look out for is opposing poison types, you arent doing yourself any favours passing them a black sludge.
DISCLAIMER: DO NOT TERA WHILE HOLDING BLACK SLUDGE
Love him or hate him, This pokemon is perennial OU material. Most slowking run boots, understandably. This specific slowking is designed to be paired with kingambit. It acts as a lure for bulky pokemon that can give gambit strife in the late game, such as skarmory, gliscor, corviknight, zamazenta, dondozo, and to a lesser extent primarina and lando-T. (0 atk lando-T does 80% minimum to this set with earthquake. stay in on him at your own risk)
@ Black Sludge Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: ???
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Future Sight / psychic
- Trick
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower/ Chilly reception
Ideally this set is played under the guise of standard slowking. This gives the opponent a sense of security that pokemon like gliscor and skarmory can come in for free to set up spikes or set up. In some cases people even believe tusk is a free switch since standard slowking only has future sight and sludge bomb. The defensive investment is designed to make you sturdier into gliscors earthquake, and random knock off from pokemon like gliscor, tornadus and zamazentas crunch. Flamethrower is my preferred move over chilly reception as skarmory teams will often have zamazenta, so slowking can cover both that way. chilly receptions utility cannot be denied so it is an option. I've left the tera type blank as this isnt a pokemon i would usually burn tera on. One thing to look out for is opposing poison types, you arent doing yourself any favours passing them a black sludge.
DISCLAIMER: DO NOT TERA WHILE HOLDING BLACK SLUDGE
Nice set but wouldn't leftovers just be better overall? Mostly coz trick is low in usage but you might find yourself in a situation where tera saves the day without having to worry about black sludge.Tonight I'd like to put a spotlight on>>>>
Love him or hate him, This pokemon is perennial OU material. Most slowking run boots, understandably. This specific slowking is designed to be paired with kingambit. It acts as a lure for bulky pokemon that can give gambit strife in the late game, such as skarmory, gliscor, corviknight, zamazenta, dondozo, and to a lesser extent primarina and lando-T. (0 atk lando-T does 80% minimum to this set with earthquake. stay in on him at your own risk)
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: ???
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Future Sight / psychic
- Trick
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower/ Chilly reception
Ideally this set is played under the guise of standard slowking. This gives the opponent a sense of security that pokemon like gliscor and skarmory can come in for free to set up spikes or set up. In some cases people even believe tusk is a free switch since standard slowking only has future sight and sludge bomb. The defensive investment is designed to make you sturdier into gliscors earthquake, and random knock off from pokemon like gliscor, tornadus and zamazentas crunch. Flamethrower is my preferred move over chilly reception as skarmory teams will often have zamazenta, so slowking can cover both that way. chilly receptions utility cannot be denied so it is an option. I've left the tera type blank as this isnt a pokemon i would usually burn tera on. One thing to look out for is opposing poison types, you arent doing yourself any favours passing them a black sludge.
DISCLAIMER: DO NOT TERA WHILE HOLDING BLACK SLUDGE
every Pokemon game since BW has tried to introduce a "insane legendary" last form, Zygarde-Complete being arguably the first, then Mega Rayquaza.. Then Ultra Necrozma, then Calyrex forms, and then Terapagos-Stellar. To various success of course.
The idea is probably to try to recapture the feeling of like, Gen 1 Mewtwo
The idea is probably more like pay to win, particularly when it comes to DLCs.
i'd say it's likely a mixture of both. it's pretty clear they've been trying to top themselves with crazy over-the-top final-boss legendary fights since mega rayquaza. they've made use of mechanics that aren't accessible to the player—ultra necrozma gets an automatic +2 to everything, eternamax gets a four-digit-bst form that you can't use, ogerpon and terapagos get boss health bars and multi-phase fights. so there's definitely an element to it outside of just pay-to-win. but the sheer number of dlc-introduced new mons that are as strong as they are, even outside of boss fights, is probably the result of a pay-to-win philosophy. my guess is they're trying to make every new mon viable in vgc in some way, which breaks most of them in singles because they have to contend with the broken shit vgc allows
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As some additions
Fire - Jimi Hendrix
House Burning Down - Jimi Hendrix
Shot Down in Flames - AC/DC
I would write more but I'm out of ideas
I really needed to double take Accelerock and find out if they really gave it to the Nacli line before giving it to Midnight Lycanroc
more rock/metal for the stupid dog:
Set The World Afire (Megadeth)
Fire Of Unknown Origin (Blue Öyster Cult)
Burnin' For You (Blue Öyster Cult)
Hotter Than Hell (KISS)
Cremation (King Diamond)
and any other 1963283676 songs named "Burn (In Hell)"
(no i cant give actual competitive insight)
Does anyone have a good summary of what works/does not work in the meta right now? I see a lot of contradictions opinions over what the best play styles are and a lot of the sample teams are from very early DLC2. I have been using balance and struggling a lot (I think Kyurem permanently ended balance) but then I see people say that balance is the best. Would love to see an updated guide to what direction to build in right now.